Aluminum rap rings-Pointless?

Same as you've posted. I don't have the 7th, but, looking at the 6th edition, the figure tossing the rope off doesn't show the anchor. In the 8th, figure 11-9, the figure is tossing off the rope, and, the anchor is present, which is an equilized cord-a-lette to a single, yeah, single, rapide.

They mention using a rap ring in several places. On p192 they do mention, "Older, welded rappel rings shold not be trusted." Must be a reference to some, uhh, older welded rappel rings apparently. These new stainless ones I wouldn't worry about.

Here's our boy Edward gettin' 'er done ala the 1872 first American edition of Scrambles...:

Attachment 53320

Ghosting, ultralight, Whymper ahead of his time back in the day. Close up with detail:

Attachment 53321

Ever see that lead rope they used on the FA of the Matterhorn? Scary skinny cord...can't be 7mm, maybe 6mm. In Zermatt at the museum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

OK,
I am a rock and ice climber just getting back into climbing having been retired since the 90's. My question is this - concerning rap rings.

Back in to 80's & 90's - we were taught to skip using rap rings all together - as these were potential 'weak links' in the rap system, and simply rig a rap thru 2 new 1" tubular slings of our own. The theory was, webbing was cheaper than rap rings, 2 slings were redundant, easily replaced with new ones by parties that followed with slings of their own, and that rap rings were not to be trusted when used with 2 slings being - "Why create TWO 'links' in the rap 'chain' (rig) versus only ONE - and that was of just using webbing itself?

In other words - 2 slings + 2 rap rigs = 4 pcs of gear, and that 2 slings themselves = 2 pcs of gear left behind - less costly and 2 LESS potential areas of failure.

Thoughts?

I don't know that I'd want to use or trust using anyone else's rap rings that I found even if I put 2 of them on 2 brand new web slings of my own.

?????

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Welcome to the Bog, Scoobie.

You bring up some interesting issues, and there are probably differences between climbers in different areas of the country, and with canyoneers, and different groups of canyoneers. Let me state what *I* think is the generally-known standard for canyoneers, then Brian will disagree, DeathCricket will give the Libertarian point of view, etc... the normal flow of opinion for Bogley...

Canyoneering:

1. Rap Rings are very important and should be used on almost every rappel.
A. If you don't use a rappel ring, the friction will be higher, and the rap will be very hard to pull.
B. If you don't use a rappel ring, when you pull the rope through the sling it will burn the sling, damage the sling. The next group will do the same, etc. until the sling fails on some unfortunate fool. (In theory, each party should replace the webbing - in practice this rarely happens.) By not using rings, you create a booby-trap for the next booby that comes along.
C. For exceptionally short raps, they are perhaps not used.

2. Rap Rings: there are several choices of rings made for climbing/canyoneering. Steel tends to work better in canyoneering, as wet, sandy ropes cut through aluminum rings fairly quickly.
A. Rapid Links (Rapides, Quick Links, R/QL) are generally preferred, in 6mm, 7mm or 8mm size. Some people (like me) insist on using the Maillon Rapide brand, while many are OK with the non-branded "Home Depot" type links, especially if using sizes larger than 1/4" (6mm). 6mm rapides are suspect by some people.
B. In trade route canyons, it is probably better to use larger links, say 7mm or 8mm (5/16"), as they are often done by climbers with beat 11mm ropes that might hang up in a 6mm rapide. They will also need replacement due to wear less often.
C. Aluminum rings sure are lighter, but get cut up quickly. When the rappels are dry and the rope expected to be dry they are acceptable and work just fine. Watch out for wear on the SMC hollow/rolled rappel rings. The new Omega ones are a lot better, but still aluminum.
D. On BIG rappels, you might tend toward using bigger rapides as they will have less friction.

3. Slings on anchors: Generally 1" Tubular is the standard, though 11/16" supertape is also acceptable. Please use "natural" colors, black, grey - neutral. The Grand Canyon requires Black.
A. really should be thoroughly inspected along their full length before use. If you don't like them, please REMOVE them, and place a new one.
B. if you come upon an anchor sling with no ring, inspect carefully for a burn mark at the low point. you may want to replace this sling out of hand.

While excess complexity in anchor setups should be avoided, adding reliable pieces that belong there in an anchor system is generally a good idea. Adding a reliable ring is such an item.

From a philosophical point of view, I believe in understanding the physics/mechanics of the system, rather than following a set of rules from an "expert". You know, like the list above... :facepalm1:

Generally on a 2-bolt anchor, or any other anchor for that matter, in a canyoneering context, you would find 1 piece of webbing and 1 ring, likely a steel rapid link.

Generally, in a canyoneering context, except for 2-bolt anchors you will find ONE anchor that may vary from truck to rather dubious. Philosophically, time spent building a second (backup) anchor point would be better spent making the primary anchor more solid.

Rings and webbing have no hidden secrets. You can know everything you need to know about them by inspection. Thus, found objects - webbing, rings, carabiners - are good to use if you inspect them and determine they are good to go. However, along this same theme, do NOT use found objects that you do not recognize. People leave behind all sorts of crazy things out there in canyons, including: welded steel rings made for handbags or horse halters; polypropylene webbing cut off a life-jacket; water ski rope; etc.

Along the same lines, putting two pieces of webbing around a tree does not make it safer as an anchor. If you cannot make a safe anchor using one sling, then adding another unsafe sling won't improve the safety. :facepalm1:

Oh, and canyoneers wear helmets, except DeathCricket who apparently has nothing to live for. :crazy: :crazycobasa:

Tom :moses:

Truckstop!

Attachment 53322

Thanks all for the great info and shared pages from various books, etc. And thanks Ratagonia for your info and input as well.

The instructor that taught us climbing back in the 80's 'theory' was - "Every time you rap off a route you need to rig 2 brand new slings of your own and replace what was left there by others. It's OK to say 'Use 1 of their slings as a backup IF totally necessary and you only have 1 new sling of your own to use - but better to 'cut off' all old slings left prior to you that may have been burned or suffered weathering from the elements, UV degradation, etc. and replace with new ones. Each party is responsible to replace old slings with their OWN new one(s) - and that "Adding a rap ring adds an unnecessary potential weak link into the system and isn't needed at all. Makes more sense to have 2 brand new slings around a stout anchor, etc - and have ONE rap ring thru both slings that might fail."

Now - I remember this as being 'gospel' back then, taking notes and such as we were taught along the way." Naturally - it IS possible that I/we MISUNDERSTOOD his instruction - but honestly - as I truly recall - this was 1 thing that always stuck out in my head for whatever reason - I don't think I/we misunderstood what he was saying.

However, was you and others - and even Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills states - it would be pretty foolish - at least to ME - to simply use 2 brand new slings every time someone raps off a route - KNOWING that once the rap is done and you pull your rope THRU them - that both are gonna get seriously burned from the friction of-such, and having to be replaced every time someone wants to rap the route.

As shown in this pic - this IS what WE were taught!

You make an interesting point concerning the purchase of rapid links from places such as Lowe's or Home Depot, etc.

Is there a site may I ask where you have all found to be a good source to purchased Rapide Links?

Thanks for the info again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

Thanks all for the great info and shared pages from various books, etc. And thanks Ratagonia for your info and input as well.

The instructor that taught us climbing back in the 80's 'theory' was - "Every time you rap off a route you need to rig 2 brand new slings of your own and replace what was left there by others. It's OK to say 'Use 1 of their slings as a backup IF totally necessary and you only have 1 new sling of your own to use - but better to 'cut off' all old slings left prior to you that may have been burned or suffered weathering from the elements, UV degradation, etc. and replace with new ones. Each party is responsible to replace old slings with their OWN new one(s) - and that "Adding a rap ring adds an unnecessary potential weak link into the system and isn't needed at all. Makes more sense to have 2 brand new slings around a stout anchor, etc - and have ONE rap ring thru both slings that might fail."

Now - I remember this as being 'gospel' back then, taking notes and such as we were taught along the way." Naturally - it IS possible that I/we MISUNDERSTOOD his instruction - but honestly - as I truly recall - this was 1 thing that always stuck out in my head for whatever reason - I don't think I/we misunderstood what he was saying.

However, was you and others - and even Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills states - it would be pretty foolish - at least to ME - to simply use 2 brand new slings every time someone raps off a route - KNOWING that once the rap is done and you pull your rope THRU them - that both are gonna get seriously burned from the friction of-such, and having to be replaced every time someone wants to rap the route.

As shown in this pic - this IS what WE were taught!

You make an interesting point concerning the purchase of rapid links from places such as Lowe's or Home Depot, etc.

Is there a site may I ask where you have all found to be a good source to purchased Rapide Links?

Thanks for the info again!

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I started climbing in 1974, Scoobie, so I think we are rooted in the same era. It has always been one of my pet peeves that climbers get taught a bunch of whacko things (like this) and then they become rules.

Anyway, yes, I have rapid links in stock, 6mm, 7mm and 8mm.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252

Tom :moses:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1330394354

Rapide bought from dollar shop for a dollar. Made in China. Cut with a pair of bolt cutters completely through. 9mm rope. Pulled through at around 4X body weight.

YMMV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1330394354

Rapide bought from dollar shop for a dollar. Made in China. Cut with a pair of bolt cutters completely through. 9mm rope. Pulled through at around 4X body weight.

YMMV.

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I'm unclear on what conclusion you draw from this, Brian. Shouldn't cut through your rapid links? Rappel softly after cutting through your rapid links?

Perhaps you could mention what SIZE China link that is - seems relevant. :cool2:

:moses:

What I did was try to simulate the worst condition you'd hopefully never see on a rapide. If the rapide was cut through right where the rope (or carabiner, or ring) sat, then, my thinking was that was the worst condition.

So, we yanked on a bunch of these. A few numbers.

9.1mm diameter intact (not cut through) failed at that neck down region by the threads at 7442lbf.
8mm at 7061.7lbf.
7mm at 6754.4lbf.
6mm tested with a 9mm rope: body failure at 5908lbf.

Note that the above "snapped" and that peak load was recorded. They didn't unwind, per se, so, I think if you were rappelling from them, they'd have still worked for, I dunno, certainly body weight.

Then took the same product, all from the dollar shop, all cost a buck, and, using bolt cutters, cut them in the worst place I could think of, right at the point where a biner or rope would sit if loaded on a rappel.

9.1mm with a 10mm pin: pin pulled through at 1205lbf.
9.1mm with a 9mm rope: rope pulled through at 740.2lbf.
8mm with a 10mm pin: pin pulled through at 743.7lbf.
7mm with a 10mm pin: pin pulled through at 544.3lbf.
7mm above, round two for fun: pin pulled through cut at 88.5lbf.

I guess my point in all this, is, rapides are made out of steel. If you don't see a gross defect, they oughta at least hold body weight.

Again, for a well travelled anchor, and, fixed anchors that are left for much use, season after season, sure, buy the good stuff. I place a gob of anchors every year (last weekend in fact) and I use all stainless rapides and rings. I double up when using chain and rapides from sources not as vetted as Peugot (etc). But, like in the photo above, if its Fixe/Raumer or any other standard climbing hardware sold for such, I'll go with those single ring (but to two bolt anchor) rigs. Compact, vertical (which I much prefer) and plenty darn strong.

Certainly, buy the good stuff. YMMV.

This was found recently in a so-cal canyon. I'm guessing the last person to rappel bent this SMC hollow/rolled aluminum ring
Attachment 53437

Two big guys on a simul rappel?

Those SMC rings are unusually strong for how thin and light they are...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1330394354

Rapide bought from dollar shop for a dollar. Made in China. Cut with a pair of bolt cutters completely through. 9mm rope. Pulled through at around 4X body weight.

YMMV.

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You could conclude that Rapid Links from this batch, from this factory are "X" strong.

Good luck getting Rapid links from the same factory again.

Yes, Steel is a forgiving medium.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

You could conclude that Rapid Links from this batch, from this factory are "X" strong.

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I might draw a few more conclusions from my testing...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Good luck getting Rapid links from the same factory again. Steel is a forgiving medium.

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I bought 100 of them...so...luck not really involved. They've mostly been consumed with various projects hither and yon. But, I have quite a pile of them left. Only place I seem to use them, unfortunately, is City/Castle up in Idaho where they are more concerned on size rather than material (ie, plated 3/8" over 5/16" stainless). Everywhere else I place an anchor I use stainless rapides (in combo with a ring, never alone).

What's interesting, is, if you plot the diameter of the rapide with the test results...fairly linear.

The hollow aluminum SMC rings were designed for "adventure climbing", where the route up and the route back down are uncertain before starting out. They are a super-lightweight solution to reduce friction on questionable pulls. They were not designed to be used more than once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I started climbing in 1974, Scoobie, so I think we are rooted in the same era. It has always been one of my pet peeves that climbers get taught a bunch of whacko things (like this) and then they become rules.

Anyway, yes, I have rapid links in stock, 6mm, 7mm and 8mm.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252

Tom :moses:

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Thanks Tom,
Just for 'shits and giggles' - I contacted my old instructor via Face Book. (What a great thing Face Book is, eh? lol.) I asked him his thought on this subject now. His reply was "Given that it's hard to recall last week, I do not know what I told you
back in 88. And, like you, I continually question and adjust my methods any
time I get some new perspective or wisdom. Rapping is the norm now; years ago we always sought a walk off. So fixed anchors are everywhere. Redundancy remains important, but admittedly there are lots of single ring anchors. The new beefy types are more reassuring than the light aluminum ones. But you are right: pulling on nylon just burns it. So, regardless of what I was spinning years ago, I endorse metal rings as a safe standard."

So it seems as you all have stated here - that at least in the climbing sector - rap rings are being used and accepted as the norm, especially the new single steel versions being sold such as: http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3657274

Now - I am curious why a Rapide might be a 'preferred' alternative to a actual rap ring as the url above shows from say - Omega?

????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

Now - I am curious why a Rapide might be a 'preferred' alternative to a actual rap ring as the url above shows from say - Omega?

????

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Cost

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scoobiedoo6559

...

So it seems as you all have stated here - that at least in the climbing sector - rap rings are being used and accepted as the norm, especially the new single steel versions being sold such as: http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3657274

Now - I am curious why a Rapide might be a 'preferred' alternative to a actual rap ring as the url above shows from say - Omega?

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The Omega's are a fine choice, but they are expensive. And in a wet canyon environment, because they are aluminum, they wear out quickly. Steel is much more resistant to the abrasive cord we call rappelling ropes.

Omega's would be a good choice for people with more money than me, in canyons that see little traffic. Please don't put them in traderoute canyons, because people (ie noobs) often do not check these things or carry spares. Another nice thing about the Rapides is the gate, which allows them to be placed on webbing without untying the knot (which might be tough).

Tom

Ahh OK - thanks - makes sense. Here in New York State we don't have any real 'canyons' but just crags and caves. But yeah, having the ability to unscrew the Rapide would def be an advantage as well as the cost too!

I've used 2 Omega rap rings to build a retreivable anchor (the "Buckle") and it worked well, but when it fell to the bottom after a few pulls, it would get marked up pretty easily while the anchor was failling down to the bottom on the rap. They are very small dents at this point, but if it gets worse, I might need to look at something more durable. The light weight was an advantage I guess, since it was something I intended to carry with me everywhere. I think steel rings, instead of rapids, may work better singe the circular shape functions better than an oval for this specific use.

At the risk of being chastised by Tom :peepwall:, I’ve been occasionally using some solid casted brass rings. This wasn’t to be cheap or to be different, but because there really isn’t anything else suitable locally unless ordering by mail (which I also do). Before using them I had several of them broken at the materials lab (where I used to work) and each one broke at several times more stress than the aluminum rings.

Here’s one I just retrieved from a somewhat popular canyon that I placed five years ago:

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/789723.JPG
The anchor has been used many times and the rings don’t have any visible wear (which is not true of the sling). I kind of like them since they are much stronger than the hollow aluminum rings and because small rapid links make a harder pull and large ones are heavier. Of course I’m not selling them, advocating them or saying to use them, but they do work for me.