Knotted Rope Death

I just heard from Emery County SAR who preformed the rescue in Knotted Rope.

First order of business is SAR wanted to warn all canyoneers that the water levels in Knotted Rope (and other parts of the Swell) are extremely low and the route is in a dangerous condition. Knotted Rope is a route that becomes more difficult as the water levels drop.

And now a few more details.... The accounts in the news are fairly accurate to this point in time. The accident occurred at the first pothole in Knotted Rope. The pictures above are of the pothole where the accident occurred. The water level in the pothole is currently 7 feet below the lip of the pothole. The couple did have a rope and were unable to extract the female from the pothole with the equipment they had available.

http://uutah.com/forum/files/pothole3.jpg

wow James l
ong time not hearing from you
last time was the argument about the grizzly boy
i ended up thinking was a relative of yours for how much you get upset at me.
was he?

i think the other case were different
now we are talking of somebody that saw in front of his eye diyng his love one, the person was planning the rest of his life with,his best friend the companion of his life the mother of his kids.

i think if he can he will gave his life for her.

the other cases are totally different but if you cannot see the difference is not my fault

so do not jump on me this time :hippy:




[quote=James_B_Wads2000]

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Originally Posted by hesse15

I do not think that somebody that lost his dear wife in such a terrible way will be willing to "analyze" "disclose" and be thought any thing.
If that happened to me the last thing i will do is getting out details .

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Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

is an old discussion(2 yearsago) between me and james about a movie.

i am a "little' harsh on my comment sometime.... so people sometime does not like that.

by the way no i never been struck by a lightning but i had 3 boyfriend that before meet been had been,
does it count? :haha:


[quote=Jaxx][quote=James_B_Wads2000]Is this what you really think? I thought for sure you would be saying got what they deserved. I mean that

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Originally Posted by hesse15

i am a "little' harsh on my comment sometime.... so people sometime does not like that.

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Yeah, I think it is safe to say that you have been less than sensitive in some cases... Particularly the Heaps accident. But your comments today have been very sensitive. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by hesse15

by the way no i never been struck by a lightning but i had 3 boyfriend that before meet been had been,
does it count? :haha:

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Wait, you are saying three of your previous boyfriends have been struck by lightning? Damn, that must be some kinda bad sign.

yeah but BEFORE they met me :roflol:

definetly after been strucked by lightning dealing with me was not that bad.

:2thumbs:

perhaps i need electric people in my life....

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

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Originally Posted by hesse15

i am a "little' harsh on my comment sometime.... so people sometime does not like that.

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Yeah, I think it is safe to say that you have been less than sensitive in some cases... Particularly the Heaps accident. But your comments today have been very sensitive. Go figure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hesse15

by the way no i never been struck by a lightning but i had 3 boyfriend that before meet been had been,
does it count? :haha:

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Wait, you are saying three of your previous boyfriends have been struck by lightning? Damn, that must be some kinda bad sign.

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one is the arm the other is how the electricity come out of the ground
pretty impressive
and again that happened 1 years before he met me

Pardon my ignorance, but do some of ya'll ever practice self or assisted rescues?? Cavers do some, usually in association with an NSS function or a local SAR group. It's status quo in our caving grotto if someone is lost or hurt in a cave we are on a call list and usually assist in the rescue.

Some in our caving group are planning on some big pit raps and ascents in deep caves in Mexico in Dec ( 700 feet to the big one--1200+ feet of free rap) and we are doing a lot of "what if's" this or that goes wrong. No close by help or good medical care in that part of the Yucatan. So planning to be as self sufficient as possible.

Don't know in this case if any training would have been helpful to this poor couple.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I've been giving this some though and I'm not sure how you would lift a person out of this pothole by yourself? There is no anchor easily accessible that I can remember that would not cause a major amount of friction in the ropes.

I'd be curious to hear some ideas, Lets assume a person who is of little or no help physically and equal to your own weight. There is a small arch down canyon about 20' that you can sling and use as an anchor. But the small arch is very low in the canyon wall. I can't remember exactly what's immediately up canyon.

This is the pothole that used to have the pole vault pipe in it. Maybe hauling anther pipe down from above would have provided some assistance?

.

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Sounds like you're looking for a "Canyon Rescue" class, Shane. I know this red-headed guy that offers one, down Cedar City way...

Tom

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Originally Posted by RedRoxx

Pardon my ignorance, but do some of ya'll ever practice self or assisted rescues?? Cavers do some, usually in association with an NSS function or a local SAR group. It's status quo in our caving grotto if someone is lost or hurt in a cave we are on a call list and usually assist in the rescue.

Some in our caving group are planning on some big pit raps and ascents in deep caves in Mexico in Dec ( 700 feet to the big one--1200+ feet of free rap) and we are doing a lot of "what if's" this or that goes wrong. No close by help or good medical care in that part of the Yucatan. So planning to be as self sufficient as possible.

Don't know in this case if any training would have been helpful to this poor couple.

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Not very often, but quite a few of us have taken the Canyon Rescue course.

Even with a lot of training, extracting the woman would have been difficult given the likely lack of resources. Knotted Rope does not require much technical gear (when full), so they likely did not have a whole lot of gear with them. Anchors in that section of canyon are few and far between. Difficult, and sad.

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Sounds like you're looking for a "Canyon Rescue" class.

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Oh I have a few ideas for what I would have done..... And I'm pretty sure my number one option is not in the redheads book..... I mean if he actually had a book. :haha:

I am curious to hear what options others would have used before tainting the waters with my thoughts.

I consider these "what if's" to be excellent training.

:popcorn:

first things first... the person trapped in the pothole needs a harness on. in the photo above it appears the person frictioning around the pothole is not wearing a harness.

upcanyon person could find any any suitable anchor to first anchor themselves into.

if no FRICTIONLESS anchors nearby, the person upcanyon would be forced to act as anchor.

person upcanyon needs 2 belaying devices, preferably locking. belaying devices are seperated by a carabiner.

attach the center of the rope to the above mentioned carabiner with a figure 8 or a biner block.

as rescuer is looking downcanyon, he holds onto the the tail end of the right side of the rope and lowers a giant loop to the rescuee.

repeat this step with the left half of the rope, making sure that both loops have enough length to reach rescuees feet.

in essence, a giant "W" should be formed with the rope.


next, rescuee attaches a self-locking knot onto both of the center strands of the rope and attaches this to their belay loop.

in essence, 2 giant foot loops have been formed.

rescuee then shifts weight from foot to foot as rescuer belays with each step.

surely the rescuees feet will slip out of the loops so on the trough of each loop attach a carabiner with a loop of webbing. the loop of webbing may be fastened to the shoes of rescuee with a cinch knot or a simple clove hitch.

...and that's my first thought. what are its weaknesses?[/quote]

Impressive idea Snatch... My only question is what does the woman do with a broken arm? Seems like it would be difficult to balance with only one arm. Unless she is super tough and can handle the pain...

Other than that, all I can say is wow. Not sure I'd be that creative...

with one arm i think the rescuee would be able to adjust the prusik/friction hitch. it would take some strength but all of rescuees weight would be in the footholds, not on the prussik.

Hey Snatch.... I never told you this before but one of your usual parrtners paid you the highest compliment I know of a while back….. he said when things go all to shit Snatch is a guy you want to have around.

:2thumbs:

Formal usual partner. Though I'd still trust my life to Snatch over anyone else I know.

My thoughts were the same, get her harness (if she has one, if not, tie up something quick) rig up a simple prusik/pulley system and start hauling. It's probably not as simple as it sounds, and difficult to keep a level head in that type of situation.

(Knotted rope is a technical canyon, but it can be reversed, so doing it without a harness on is not out of the question.)

Ice, I understand that the water level was 7 feet below the lip of the pothole, any idea how deep the pothole is? could she touch?

Just some other random thoughts.

Cheap and easy footloops--- webbing dog collars sold everywhere complete with snap buckles. Have used those to fabricate a frog system on ascents, can tighten down to keep tension on boots to prevent slippage or unsnap for quick climbing.

I usually carry a small pully with a lock off/friction cam for hauling, useful if you have to rig heavy pack hauling, do a traverse or assist pulling someone up something and you are not that strong, or don't have a good belay system.

Always carry a short length of handline, and a ascender of some sort. To climb up or down short distances if your main or last rope in use and unable to use the tail or whatever. I have traditional handled ascenders ( heavy) and or carry a tibloc.

Caving problem--
We descended a vertical drop of about 40 feet to a room, part of the drop involved squirming into a stone chute about 8 feet in length with two constrictions, so tight helmets removed and shifting about like you were putting on tight jeans. No packs, and everything shoved below or above you, we belled out into the roof of a small room. Coming back up ascending once your upper body was in the hole your legs dangled below you and you couldn't lift them up to assist you because of the first constiction. Your upper body is wedged such that one arm is above you and one below. And you are against gravity. Took a lot of keeping calm and making very small adjustments to get out of that one I tell you. We had several people stationed topside just in case we had to be pulled out, which in fact one guy did have to have help; he was broader shouldered than me. So some things are very difficult even if you have all the gear and are healthy.

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Originally Posted by price1869

Formal usual partner. Though I'd still trust my life to Snatch over anyone else I know.

My thoughts were the same, get her harness (if she has one, if not, tie up something quick) rig up a simple prusik/pulley system and start hauling. It's probably not as simple as it sounds, and difficult to keep a level head in that type of situation.

(Knotted rope is a technical canyon, but it can be reversed, so doing it without a harness on is not out of the question.)

Ice, I understand that the water level was 7 feet below the lip of the pothole, any idea how deep the pothole is? could she touch?

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That is a super compliment comming from this guy. :eek2: I have still never seen a better photo than the one of you two guys and one other on the side of a mountain looking up at rain clouds or something. The looks on your faces are priceless!!!!

I think the pothole in question may be in MK's red book. If not, the two photos still give an impressive (depressive) view of what it might take to extract a person from a similiar one.

FWIW. For those of you who go to the dark side there is a post by an individual who had personal involvement with this couple. He was not impressed.

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Originally Posted by bruce from bryce

FWIW. For those of you who go to the dark side there is a post by an individual who had personal involvement with this couple. He was not impressed.

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Ya I saw that post. Very telling, and confirms some suspicions I had.

Alright.... my rescue method is not all that complex..... but probably has a high chance of success...... why not reverse out and get help from Hidden Splendor? Reversing this route is simple. Its one hour back and there are always people at the airstrip on a weekend. Also, you can get cell coverage from the top of the mesa. Not sure if they had a cell with them or in their vehicle. I'm sure he didn't want to leave his wife.

From crossing the pothole in the past using the pole vault method I'd say the pothole is 15 feet deep from lip to bottom. The water level is currently down 7 feet. I'm pretty sure the pothole water was over the woman's head as I hear her body was recovered hanging in ropes which I'm guessing were rigged to try and stop her from drowning.