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And if the lady had of fell and impaled herself on the end of a bent pipe sticking up your stance would be what?Quote:
Originally Posted by deserthiker
The pipes were not removed because of ego, I believe they were removed because they had become a serious danger. And since the canyon is easily reversible at this point no trap had been set for the unsuspecting.
:cool2:
I think the general feeling of everyone is, Go expecting no anchors or pipes or bolts, if you run into one of these then you don't have to figure out a different way. I hate to think that people are going into canyons ill prepared because of what is in a book.
Canyons change daily it seems, get the best beta you can but expect some differences.
disclaimer: I am a canyon noob so take everything I say with a grain of salt... :haha:
ha ha...you need to change your password - looks like hesse's pirated your account. :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by deserthiker
The pipes are prehistoric and thus fall into the same category as a log, rock, or other canyon variable. Just because MK chose to put them into a guidebook (and maybe Tom, Shane could be lumped, too, but thankfully they can update their descriptions immediately) doesn't make them sacred.
Whether nature or humans (who are a part of nature, but have the choice to exist outside of it) removes the pipes is immaterial. The FACT is that if the pipes were not there, there would be no reasonable expectation on the part of would-be descenders that the canyon contains "permanent" aid. I would not go into a canyon without preparing for contingencies. One such contingency in KR would be prepping for pipe absence or just simply pipe non-use. What if the pipe had a couple dead deer wrapped around it?
Or, for my best friend Alicia: dead snakes? :haha:
The flipside FACT: regardless of whether the pipes stay or go, one should go prepped for a pipe-free descent. It's just common sense.
Sorry, i must have missed something. Can you tell me how the pipe was removed with any certainty?Quote:
Originally Posted by deserthiker
Unfortunately I cannot find the original information I had on it. In addition to the post Hesse linked to, there was discussion from someone on the group who did the removal of the pipes. I thought it was Ice's group. The WHO doesn't matter, but I am certain someone either posted on the group or e-mailed me a trip report about.Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
There is a post on the canyons group from April 06 saying the pipes were there in 99 (Tom Jones), and insinuating they were still there in April 06 (Brent), but I believe they were removed by the time I did it in late spring 06, because we did not find any at the big keeper. I would speculate they have been missing a little over a year.
Nature did not remove them, or nature did and someone else told me they did to brag.
:roflol:
Shane I did some research, and I CANNOT find A single posting about the pipes been UNSAFE
but mostly these ones
do you have any single oneabout danger?
:ne_nau:
from egroup
apr 10 06"There was plenty of "plumbing" to help us through the tight
spots, especially for some of the more "waistline-challenged," me
included. "
"With the pipe in place, the canyon is a cool romp, and quite unlike
other Swell Canyons. Without the pipe in place, the canyon is a cool
romp with some interesting obstacles"
"The pipes really don't bother me much. They are more durable and
easy to evaluate than ropes and are interesting historical trash from
nearby. "
"I am somewhat sad that the standard of the canyon is reduced
somewhat by the pipes"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Wish i'd thought of that one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
The old stright pipes were ruined and bent beyond practical use. And you know this because I just told you... after that you can spin the details any way you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by hesse15
Now if you want to argue against bending pipes left in canyons feel free.
If you want to argue if the pipes are thrash or ancient artifact be my guest.
I'm of the mind set that commonsence dictates you go prepared for conditions to have changed from the beta/guide/forum post you are using.... I also warn the readers of my website that this is a good idea.
"The information listed is the conditions we found on the day we did the adventure, conditions in the outdoors change, use caution and go prepared."
I believe every other sprayer of beta has a similar warning....
:cool2:
perhaps adding the following
"conditions in the outdoors change because dammn people go out changing canyon conditions (pulling out bolts /pipes whatever) ,because THEY THINK if you are not skilled enough, like they are, you are not suppose to be there."
THAT IS A MORE TRUE STATEMENT
so condition change because damn people decide what is the standard for others whithout taking in account the consequence of their act and the responsability with that.
[quote="Iceaxe"]
"The information listed is the conditions we found on the day we did the adventure, conditions in the outdoors change, use caution and go prepared."
[quote]
What color is the sky in your world? :ne_nau:Quote:
Originally Posted by hesse15
One major storm system through the state changes the canyons much more then all the humans do in 20 years time....
:popcorn:
I agree with that
a flood change the high spur hike in a rappel,
and i do not blame weather,weather does not do thing with INTENTIONS
but i still blame human actions because are VOLUNTARY taken
if wind put a tree on the highway i will not blame it
if a damn dude put a tree in the highway I WILL!!!
still is the same tree just THE INTENTIONS are different. :roll:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I always shudder to think of the consequences of folks removing or changing anchors. Sure, nature could do it and be prepared, yada yada.Quote:
Originally Posted by hesse15
Just like some folks removing bolts and using deadman anchors, if someone removed the pipes, who knows? Did they directly cause a death? Probably not. Would, on some level, they feel guilty about it, or, have something to do with it? Their actions resulted in a difference in the canyon. Not nature. That difference may have played a part in the accident.
I've done Knotted Rope and the pipe was there. Made it easier, no doubt.
Whether or not the pretzl configuration was usable is subjective, too. When no alternative was left in place other than to "get some skills", then, I don't know. I guess I'm glad its not me having to think about some measure of responsibility.
I always think of worse case, for some reason, as a guide to what might or might not be my actions, when I think of my actions affecting another person's safety or sense of aesthetics (two wildly different things sometimes!). Best to not, usually. But, really, could the person(s) who removed the pipe stand up at the funeral and say something comforting to the friends and family of the deceased? Probably not. So I'd say, as a measure, if you don't have the courage to stand up at a funeral, maybe don't mess with removing (or adding, for that matter) anchors or other safety oriented items in the field. Something to think about.
Maybe too daunting. Sobering to ponder. Unfair assessment? Yeah, probably too harsh.
To me, its a huge responsibility not to be taken lightly.
-Brian in SLC
Yes... but you are arguing it's OK for a dude to put a tree in the highway but not OK for a different dude to remove it....Quote:
Originally Posted by hesse15
:ne_nau:
One other thought.... its not like there is a shortage of pipes in the Knotted Rope area. You walk by half a dozen on the way to the first pothole. If a pipe could have been used to rescue the woman why did the man not hike 1/4 mile back up canyon and fetch one?
:popcorn:
I suppose it would be pretty easy to get away with homicide in a slot canyon. Nobody around to see you give your partner a shove into a pothole and then wait for nature to take it's course. Sooooo....anyone wanna accompany me down Quandary direct this weekend? Shane?
Well, because the press said there was nothing the guy could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Kind of a grim scenario. I can't imagine.
The problem solving side of me wants to go do a practise rescue there. The superstitious side of me doesn't want to go anywhere near that place.
Kinda does make you wonder how much extra gear to have with, always, for any canyon, even an easy one. In my mind I've run through dozens of "what would I have done" type situations.
Not sure the body weight difference between the two. Without rigging a haul, I might have tried to raise directly by rapping or lowering into the pool, slapping a Prusik or two on the rope, and, just like a "pick off" rappel type rescue, but, opposite. Jug out with the person's body weight added to your own. Almost makes me want to practise it though.
Could have also gone to pool height, and, with an assist, clipped the person into a harness and have them help climb out by grabbing the harness, a loop of webbing, while pulling with two arms and pushing with legs. Clip in short as progess is made. Ugly, but, might be functional.
Not sure how hard it would have been to either drop a loop with a biner on it (2 to 1 minus the friction loss aka Canadian Drop Loop system of raising) or to rig a quick 3 to 1 Yosemite raise. Even without a self minding Prusik, might have been able to get enough throw distance for a single long raise enough to clear pool height. I've pulled a partner out of a crevasse with a Canadian drop loop system. Super quick and efficient. Must faster to rig (basically nothing more than a loop with one side of the rope fixed, pull on the other side) than either a self Prusik or a Z or C or Z by C from above.
Dunno. But, the problem solver in me is intrigued...
-Brian in SLC
My wife said the same thing.... and just after I upped my life insurance.... Now I'm truly scared.Quote:
I suppose it would be pretty easy to get away with homicide in a slot canyon. Nobody around to see you give your partner a shove into a pothole and then wait for nature to take it's course. Sooooo....anyone wanna accompany me down Quandary direct this weekend? Shane?
:roflol:Quote:
Well, because the press said there was nothing the guy could do.
This has been my thought exactly.... I figure a practice rescue might answer a lot of questions.Quote:
The problem solving side of me wants to go do a practise rescue there. The superstitious side of me doesn't want to go anywhere near that place.
.
Hesse, your analogy does not hold up. Give up before it's too late!Quote:
Originally Posted by sardinianhothead
Or take a sincere stab at explaining why your analogy doesn't hold water. This little exercise might help expand your viewpoint a little... <smile>
So i was thinking people can understand a comparizations whithout spending multiple words,
apparently not
you need lot of words
ok i will try to explain to you using more words
if a modification happen in the canyon because of natural unwilling events such us :wind, rain, water flood ,sun hearthquake, twister, fire and such.
I will not blame and accept us NATURAL EVENT that modify a canyon.
If a damn dude decide for estethic reasons, ego reason , having a very little brain reason, to modify the canyon and make it more dangerous to the people after him, and cause consequence injury or death ,directly because of his acting and decision, I WILL NOT AGREE WITH HIM AND I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT
disclaimer:i do not have time to check spelling grammar mistakes and because is a second language to me leave me alone.
otherwise i can write in perfect lovely correct Italian, but i think i will be either more difficult to understand me.
by the way if a dude remove a barricade on the highway that is put because the highway on the back collapsed , but this dude has a 4wd so is not a big deal for him.
this is another scenario of dude with very little brain (and perhaps some other little part on his body) decide what is right for the rest of the people.
somebody mention the cartoon to me i like it
Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
hesse.... we understand what you are saying.
My question to you is why is it OK for a dude to place a bolt (or pipe) but not OK for anther dude to remove it? Both are human modifications to the canyon.
The way I see it you want to pick and chose which human modifications are acceptable?
:popcorn:
ok, now you're making sense. I agree those are detestable motivations for modifying canyons in an unsafe manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by hesse15
I love communication - it's such a time saver.
Sorry, not leaving you alone...if you want to be alone, what are you doing here? Good EN lessons abound 'round here! The extra words help my understanding - thanks.Quote:
disclaimer:i do not have time to check spelling grammar mistakes and because is a second language to me leave me alone.
Awesome cartoon!