Animosity

Impact...oof, this is a tough one. The real problem with impact is we ain't seen nothing yet. The impact on the canyons that we see today (aside from the massive bovine factor) is minimal compared with what we'll seen in the next many years as hordes of people seek the wilder, less tamed country.

I think probably the most stark realization for me was doing deep creek. The banks of the stream were incredibly lush with vegetation, seemingly quite pristine. Then vanished sharply, altogether, right at the junction with the virgin. The contrast was stunning and i assumed only one explanation.

if it's our right to be in these canyons, it's everyone's right. canyons will be discovered, whether any particular group of individuals likes it or not. it's simply a matter of time. keeping canyons a secret only protects them in the short term, for the experiences of a very limited number of people.


if you want land protected in the long term, you need force people to be very conservative about everything they do out there. this seems amazingly tough. we HAVE improved camping impact in the past years....kinda, i found a bunch of backpacker dehydrated food packages burnt and left at a campsite in west canyon. but walking impact??!! how on earth are we going to control that without well defined trails or brainwashing? we still have problems with trampling cyanocryptogamobiotic soilcrust.

i am all for preserving as much as possible, but i don't see how massive impact is not inevitable. However, I do wish to be convinced otherwise!!

OK, enough BULLSHIT......

Here is the deal for those playing along at home....... Desert Hiker found Pandora's Box. I asked for the location and was denied. So I located the canyon with the help of a local Torrey canyoneering guide. It was located with absolutely NO help from Desert Hiker or his clique. It was located with only the information that is available to everyone in this forum and after a lot of hard work and effort that Desert Hiker conveniently ignores.

Nothing was stolen and no one cheated. Unless you consider the hard work and dedication of a small group of talented canyoneers working together to uncover the secret as cheating.

And now for a little more info that Desert Hiker doesn't even know...... I put off publishing this canyon for over a year at the request of a mutual friend. He presented some reasonable arguments that I respected so I honored his request. Betcha didn't even know that did you Desert Hiker?

Even after all this drama I still presented Desert Hiker with a draft copy of the route description and asked if he wanted to make any comments or corrections. I guess this is where the misunderstanding of his snippet comes in, which I am only hearing about now. I thought it was a legitimate comment. Don't worry Desert Hiker, your snippet was removed in less then 24 hours from what was only a draft copy viewed by a couple friends. Your snippet was updated with more accurate information before it was released to the public.

Anyhoo.... jump to the future.... Now Desert Hiker feels slighted because he feels the love and glory that goes with publishing a new canyon should be his. Either that or he selfishly believes this canyon on public land belongs to him.....

So give Desert Hiker the love for finding the canyon and attempting to keep it hidden from ya'll....... better luck next time Desert Hiker....

But I do want to say thanks to everyone who helped me unlock this canyon and solve its mysteries. It took talent, skill, dedication and a true team effort to put this route into the books. I'm extremely proud of the achievement..........

Anything you want to add to that Desert Hiker feel free......

Excluding the posturing and animosity of some of the posts I consider this a really interesting thread. So please continue....

:cool2:

One other item of interest or irony, depending on how you look at it..... while searching for Pandora's Box we stumbled upon the Poison Spring Canyons and Zero-G. If we had not been searching for one secret canyon we would not have stumbled upon dozens of other possibilities. The search for Pandora's Box has since yielded a massive amount of beta on other canyons that hold great possibilities.

:popcorn:

Quote:

---

Anyhoo.... jump to the future.... Now Desert Hiker feels slighted because he feels the love and glory that goes with publishing a new canyon should be his. Either that or he selfishly believes this canyon on public land belongs to him.....

---

Hahaha... Yeah, uh, no.... If publishing canyons and feeding ego was driving me, I would be posting beta on other canyons not on the radar. Pandora's holds a special place in my heart for a variety or reasons, but there are many other gems out there that are equal in beauty and equally fragile. May they stay hidden as long as possible.. ;)

It's simply about impact and wilderness experience for me. Pandora's is already showing signs of impact. Now that the information is widely available, and it is being talked up, it will undoubtedly see much, much more impact.

This is an advantage I see to a guidebook over the website approach; it releases information in big chunks, so impact is spread. When a Kelsey book comes out, impact probably increases greatly on canyons, but the impact is spread across a lot of canyons. I suspect canyons in the top 10 list see greater impacts, but others don't see as much. For example, I recently did both forks of No Mans, from Kelsey's book. Even though they are great canyons, we didn't see much impact. Had they been released on "circle", they would have been the canyon de jour and shown more impact.

Certainly everyone has different motivations for why they canyon. Different motivations promote different approaches and desires for what the experience should be. Calling my motivations selfish or elitist shows a lack of understanding on your part for my position.

We should do a canyon sometime. It's probably been 3 years since we got out? Eye of the needle maybe? Skills and philosophies change over time.

Desert Hiker

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deserthiker

This is an advantage I see to a guidebook over the website approach; it releases information in big chunks, so impact is spread. When a Kelsey book comes out, impact probably increases greatly on canyons, but the impact is spread across a lot of canyons. I suspect canyons in the top 10 list see greater impacts, but others don't see as much. For example, I recently did both forks of No Mans, from Kelsey's book. Even though they are great canyons, we didn't see much impact. Had they been released on "circle", they would have been the canyon de jour and shown more impact.

---

Book versus website, hmm, let's see. I would guess that the book reaches FAR MORE people than the website. More avid canyoneers may gravitate towards the website, but I guess i am not sure how in the long run they are any different. Are you sure in summer/fall 2003 there wasn't a wave of folks turned on to larry canyon, and now that initial wave of interest = impact is weathered away?

while i was under the impression that there are a few folks out there who pride themselves on NOT using MK's books, i was ALSO under the impressions that canyoneers LOVE BETA. so why on earth would there be a long-term difference between a book broadcasting 30+ new hikes at one moment of time, vs. the same number of hikes titrated over the course of many years? people get out and do canyons regardless, don't they?.

I'm talented? ah . . . . Thanks Shane. :oops:

Desert Hiker, as for doing routes together I enjoy your company. But would it not be hypocritical of you to do a canyon with me? 90% of my time is spent on new routes, which means you would be stealing someone else's special place. Every place is special to someone.... Do you understand why I see selfishness in your ethics?

Alright, lets take this in a new direction...... obviously canyon beta is going to be published. If I don't do it someone else will. You are not going to stop it. Your attempts at stemming the tide result in nothing more then a speed bump. As the canyoneering community expands the life of a secret canyon is now measured in dog years. Keeping a route secret might protect an area for an extra year, but creates even a bigger stampede when it is finally released because of the rumors that have rippled through the community.

So I ask this question......... Would it not be better in the long run to properly educate people? Would your effort not be better spent promoting good ethics? What about taking the time to cairn a couple of trials through fragile areas to avoid braided social trails? The canyons themselves are not fragile. The canyons are ravished several times each year by wicked flashfloods which remove all but the worst signs of human passage.

Food for thought....

:cool2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by price1869

I'm talented? ah . . . . Thanks Shane. :oops:

---

Dude..... your a stud, it's always nice having you along. :2thumbs:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

The canyons themselves are not fragile. The canyons are ravished several times each year by wicked flashfloods which remove all but the worst signs of human passage.

---

Amen!! I don't think there's anything that humans can do (besides bolting) that can permanently scar a canyon.

I also think that your definition of impact varies from the definition of others. I think if you scrutinized every square foot of the average slot canyon along it's entire length, you could probably find impacts (be it footprints, or webbing, or rope marks, whatever), but is that REALLY what you're looking for when you do a canyon? Come on! That's like getting handed a glass that's 99.5% full, and complaining about the other 0.05% being empty. :roll:

I agree with Shane's viewpoint here. The canyons will eventually get discovered, and then published somewhere. Why not be the first to point out the BEST and LEAST IMPACTFUL ways into and out of the canyon? Why not point out that bolts are unnecessary with the correct skill set, thereby promoting education and good canyon ethics?

I kinda have to lean towards Shane side on this one too. Contrary to lucky people out there, I have a family and school and work that takes up alot of my time. I am not as fortunate as others to be able to spend large amounts of time and weekends on end exploring and finding new canyons. The canyons I do come from the web and guide books otherwise, I would not be in to this sport as much as I am. Thanks to Shane, Tom, and others who allow all of us to enjoy beautiful canyons at the expense that they have put in to finding beta for a canyon and publishing it. I would also have to agree with the masses of people throshing canyons. I don't see this and agree with the fact that frequent flashfloods wipe out any traces of human passage. When we went through the Squeeze, which is about as popular and visited canyon as any I know, there were absolutely no social trails or even footprints. The only sign of human passage were the bolts and webbing which didn't bother me at all because they were all well placed.

Just my two bits,

Reedus

Actually, I don't see what the bid deal is, either way :ne_nau: I'm happy to have beta from Shane and Tom's website, as well as Mike Kelsey's books. On the other hand, if someone finds a canyon, does it, and doesn't want to share it with the masses for whatever reason, that's fine too. Their business, and it doesn't bother me. They have their reasons. It's up each individual what to do with their beta, and I don't really see it as an ethical issue.

Nat

Right, but it's the people that are trying to protect "their" canyons. Meanwhile they don't realize that the canyon is not theirs at all, but everyones, and they get upset if someone else is doing it.

Most of the people claiming canyons as their own are worried very little about whether or not there is environmental impact. They all know that mother nature could wipe the human race right off the planet if she wanted. We are afterall part of nature. They just have selfish motives and want the canyons to remain personal. Claiming that they own a beautiful part of nature is their way of justifying small penises and giant asses.

Price-Slice

i agree with nat, whatever someone wishes to do with their knowledge of a canyon is up to them. but if someone else is putting information/photos on the internet that subtly suggest the location of that route, then it's hard to complain to the person who figured it out for themselves, isn't it? it's especially difficult if someone simply finds it completely on their own, without any suggestion whatsoever. :mwink:


it seems to me somewhat beneficial to expand the tome of published canyoneering routes, since it will spread the impact over a larger group of canyons as the number of canyoneers is surely increasing. otherwise you risk what happens in zion to happen in other well-established places, perhaps on a smaller scale, but in environments possibly more fragile.

spreading impact seems a better choice because the rate of accumulation could be smaller compared to the rate of erosion, plant growth, etc. i think my point about deep creek vs. zion narrows is that sections where there once was tons of vegetation, probably will never recover as long as the demand to walk that canyon is so high and people are permitted to walk wherever they please.


the only way i can see holding out (keeping secrets) for environmental impact reasons would be, if somehow in the future, we should discover a better way of managing this problem, perhaps analogous to the bolting problem. though the bolting problem appears far easier to solve than the impact problem. however, some may argue that even though it's just a matter of time, it's worth it....maybe

proprietary knowledge of a canyon is ephemeral, and the more friends one tells, clearly the more ephemeral it is. naturally the internet will continue to make this even more so.

and if there is one thing we humans are infamous for it's our power struggles over our discoveries and our claims of how best they should be handled.

:deal: :lol8: ........... :argue: ........ :duel: .......... :five:

Thought I'd summarize what I'm getting from the group. Viewpoints I may or may not agree with, with a few of my personal thoughts thrown in and indicated as such.

1) The animosity Reed speaks of mostly revolves around beta and secrets, but is mostly personal conflicts that a few people have with Ice that sometimes involves said beta and secrets.

2) Sharing beta, to some degree or another, is good, or at least inevitable. Its especially good for those canyoneers who don't get out much or meet people in other canyoneering circles. Beta may have the positive effect of spreading impact over more canyons as canyoneering becomes more popular. Personally, I would doubt that anyones lust for beta is actually motivated by anything other than the personal desire to know about and see more cool places (or a combination of this with the opportunity to make money from showing people more cool places, in the case of the mass publishers).

3) Keeping secrets will do little to keep canyons from getting bolted, etc. mass education in whatever ways are possible is a better option.

4) Impact in canyons is inevitable if they become popular, but its not the same kind of impact as bolting, and can be washed away in a few years, so its not as big of deal. Impact on approaches is a different story, and ideally, action should be taken to minimize this if a route is published and/or becomes popular. While a canyon does remain secret, this will not be an issue, but you are just delaying the inevitable. (to which I would add "so what?")

5)Keeping secrets is fine, as long as you don't see the canyon as "yours" and get pissed when someone figures out where the canyon is on their own. Unless of course, Ice makes it a point to piss you off anyway, which he often does for kicks.

I would add, that betraying the trust of individuals who let you in on their secrets is unquestionably wrong, whether you agree with their philopsophies or not, if you want nothing to do with "secret" canyons then don't have anything to do with them in the first place, go out and refind them on your own and with available hints, as some people do. Once you put in the work, its now your information to do whatever you please with, even if people hate you for it.

I would also add that the perceived amount of canyons being kept secret is probably higher than the actual amount that really are, which are very very few.

I believe the main problem is the lust for people to know everything. Even if there are 100 great betaed canyons out there that someone hasn't done, its inevitable they will want to find out about the 1 secret one.

I have to agree with most on this topic. My wife and I are rank beginners, our last canyon was right fork of Leprechaun, and it was our first taste of "technical" canyoneering (to us anyways). We both work full time and I also have a part time job. I don't have the time to do much as of yet, but hopefully in the future. We manage to get out about once a month, not bad, I feel. I want to thank Shane, Tom, the person who keeps up Canyon Quest (sorry I don't know your name, please tell me), and all others that keep me in the "know" whether it be from web pages or the forums, about beta, proper etiquette, and best times to visit. You all are very helpful. I only hope to be able to do some canyons with you sometime. I could really use some help on natural anchors, but that will come. The canyons are in constant change, it didn't take long for Mother Nature to erase Aron Ralstons carvings in Blue John, so I think that if you want to keep a canyon secret, fine, do it until you and all your friends have had your fun, and then release it. The forums are a great place to expound on all aspects of this fine sport, stay on visible trails (don't spread out while hiking), leave everything as you found it, etc...

Anyways that's my 2 bits. I hope to hook up with any of you and get to know people that have the same love for the wild as my wife and I do.

Gary

i thought i would post the following image, which was shot by dr. jalapeno.
i don't know what the policy concerning taking other's photos and posting them, but....

since the post was originally about poaching closed navajo canyons,
i thought i would include a photo of the canyon which incited the divergent thread.

one can easily see why one would consider poaching this canyon.
But as mike dallin pointed out, if you get caught, it's a $1000 fine. :ahhh:


seeing as how it's in a very obvious location, it's not worth trying.
but someday we may again get to enjoy kaibeto

Ok, I don't want to dis on the Navajos, but I was just wondering.....why is the fine so high? $1000? There are felonies that have fines less than that!!


OUCH!!! What's up with that? I realize its their land, and they can manage it however they want, but 1000 dollars seems a tad extreme.

The information is second or third hand, but it's likely correct.

my guess is that it's steep for 2 reasons, to severely deter people and to pay for rescues, which the navajo are responsible for on their land.

regardless it is steep

[quote="deserthiker"]

Quote:

---

Pandora's holds a special place in my heart for a variety or reasons,

---

Just wanted to say, though i know you would have prefered it kept unknown,
i would like to say that your discovery is recognized and appreciated. :2thumbs:

maybe if there are some reasonable ways to prevent impact, you can vocalize them to raise awareness

Something I have noticed is slot canyons erode much faster then I ever imagined. I have seen rope grooves and hook holes disappear as fast as two or three years. Just thought I would toss that out for you to nibble on.

And here is a fun example...... 10 years ago this hole through a fin in a meander of Red Cave was the size of a softball. You can see it has now grown into a nice little natural bridge. This was done in only ten years time in a slot that might see one or two flash floods each year.

:popcorn: