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...rapping on the pull-cord.
And a guide, nonetheless.
Hopefully he recovers well!
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Is the above based onQuote:
Originally Posted by jman
“It sounds like he must have hooked into the wrong rope,” Alldredge said. “So when he went to go over, it wasn’t on the one that was being held, and he more or less fell straight down.”
?
Indeed. It sounds like that’s what it was, but I may be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
Hopefully SAR will have a blurb on their page about it.
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From my experience Zion Ponderosa "guide" means a college kid that has done the canyon a couple times before but has no formal training.
It will be interesting to understand the cause of the accident if more/accurate information is ever released.
"college"? If you're lucky!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?
Sounds like the victim was using single line technique on double lines.... having a toolbox full of tools doesn't help if ya don't know which tool to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
debate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
It won't be good again until 2047 - unless human cloning perfected before then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott P
I agree with ratagonia that there is nothing to debate... but probably not for the same reason. Again and again these injuries and deaths occur when the single line rappel is employed. Admittedly I too use it extensively. But with all due respect to the long time canyoneers who competently descend Zion's moderate canyons and Utahs more technically advanced canyons, most people (read: most canyoneers) have no business using SLR techniques. We have seen guides and rangers, hot doggers and average Joes, fail to negotiate this rather simple act.
At some point it must be recognized that the technique should not be used by most people.
I find it interesting that helmet-less canyoneers are called out immediately anytime a posted pic appears in these blogs. Yet expert canyoneers are beyond reluctant to acknowledge, much less are they willing to warn those engaging in the sport, that SLR is linked with more severe consequences than any other aspect of canyoneering... with the only possible exception being flash floods. Nor do they educate and re-educate at each unfortunate opportunity.
I don't read all of the threads, so I may be mis-speaking, but I'd like to see you who have already commented on this issue (often dismissively) make a bigger effort to promote SLR safety (and instruction ??) as you do regarding assessing weather conditions and wearing helmets.
It seems to me that the leaders of this sport do a good job of monitoring helmet use, for instance. I never see anyone write that there are alternatives to helmet use or that helmets shouldn't be used. So why is SLR a sacred cow?
So if the community of canyoneers only blames incompetent people in their SLR failures and does nothing to address this issue, then does the community (you know who you are) not have some level of culpability?
So hopefully no one is offended, but I think a little help here from those that have weight in their words is welcomed. It might just prevent some injuries.
To your point that SRT is inherently more dangerous than DRT, much has been said about that and I won't re-write that book here. Volumes of info on this are available for the interested; here's a good starting point:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRock
http://canyon collective.com/threads/single-strand-vs-double-strand-rappel.20177/#post-87963
There are very few SRT accidents involving a competent person who is mentally and physically uncompromised. Most SRT accidents involve a person getting on the wrong (pull) side of the rope, when the pull rope is unsecured. If I read your post correctly, you are asking why does the expert canyon community not do more to deter incompetent people from using SRT due to the — perceived — greater chance of error inherent in SRT? Is that correct?
I don't consider myself an expert, but for what it's worth...when traveling with family / inexperienced folks...
- 1st man down:usually me:I prefer SRT, where I set it up with
- releasable figure 8 contegency
- rest of the rope / separate rope as backup belay line
- Middle of the group:
- Either same set up as above, or...
- Same set up as above minus #2, but with fireman belay
- Last man down (usually me) - DRT with fireman belay (I'm often the heaviest in the group, which works well for DRT :))
As in almost every canyoneering accident I have been able to track down, the victim had toast with jam for breakfast in the morning. We KNOW that toast with jam has a very high glycemic index, and this undoubtedly led directly to the errors made.
Both of these recent incidents involved the single line rappel - which adds several additional components (biner block, unsecured pull line, and potentially fast descents) that you don't have with standard double rope rappels. Rappelling already has dangerous elements- ledge exposure, sound anchors or not, rapping off the rope ends, knots for linking ropes, etc. SLR just increases chances for error and we're seeing that manifested here. The occasional canyoneer should not employ SLR - my opinion.
I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used. I'm not convinced the same can be said of the single line rappel.
I don't think mr jones is adding valuable contribution to the conversation by arguing that there is only some correlation to SLR in these cases and not a direct link to these accidents - stop deflecting.
Clearly people are f-ing this technique up. Some are dying. Now, if you feel comfortable with this, then ok. Post the accident report, beat up on the victim and do not offer up your counsel and guidance.
All I'm respectfully asking for... is that the leadership as represented largely in those already posting on this thread... instead of convicting post-accident victims as incompetent, is to continue to educate, instruct, warn and help future canyoneers not make the same mistake. There is weigh to your words... use it well.
All of you guys (moon, jman, iceaxe) are respected for your views - especially mr jones. But you must take responsibility to reiterate and re-educate as the situation demands. This is one of those times. There are new people coming into this sport every day. Help them.
Slickrock,
I was going thru Mystery solo a few years ago when I came upon you and your group. I was employing the biner block (for the first time, learning it because "everybody seems to be doing it") and we had a short conversation about it. You asked "Why" and I really didn't have an answer.
What you said made complete sense to me and I haven't bothered with it since.
Canyoneering (at least some of it) involves using ropes. Using ropes requires some skill set. If you don't have that skill set and go out and do things, when you mess up you are likely to get hurt or die. All these accidents involve people who do not have the required skill set.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRock
The skill set required for Single Rope Technique SRT is similar but not the same as that required for Double Rope Technique.
I realize you are of the canyoneering/political party that says every accident is caused by SRT. While I am of the canyoneering/political party that says every accident is caused by screwing up. Some blame Obama, some blame Trump.
It is not my responsibility to educate everyone who suspects they are a canyoneer in proper technique. It's just not. Me and mine (Hank, Ramoo, etc.) have done a huge amount of mentoring over the last 18 years, but no, we cannot keep up.
Rant rant rant. Perhaps you should do something that does more than flapping your gums - like taking beginners out and inflicting some technique on them.
Tom
My good friend Louis Johnson died because he was using double-rope technique. If he had been on a single rope, he would not have died. (but it was a lot more complicated than that).Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRock
The fellow in Robber's Roost might have died because he was using double-rope technique, though it seems more likely it was a heart attack. His brother would have been able to reach him after his fall, if he had used SRT, and would not have spent several days on a ledge awaiting rescue.
The guy who broke his back on the last rap in Heaps lost control because of DRT. He was "experienced", but this was the first time he had EVER rappelled single-strand. I would suggest that the last rap in Heaps is not a good place to try a technique you had not previously used. (The guy was 24 years old, and had broken his back twice previously... jus' sayin').
Same for Cabe's friend in Pine Creek.
But we have both barked around this tree many times.
That Byron has no idea why SRT is the worldwide standard technique for canyoneering says more about Byron than it does about SRT. You want to use DRT, please, be my guest. Whatever works for you.
But I do offer up my counsel and guidance, perhaps even too much. USE TECHNIQUES THAT YOU UNDERSTAND.
And let me recall for you the two rules of canyoneering - and you only really need two rules:
1. Don't frak it up and die.
and
2. If you break Rule #1, don't take anyone with you.
Tom :moses: :moses: :moses:
Hey Tom! I'm sure you know where this is, right? Although the folks above me are using a rope on this little feature, I threw my pack and then jumped into the pool...just like I do every time. I also didn't bring a helmet or even a harness...I did the whole thing with a diaper sling. You know what that is, right?
I play by my own rules. Ain't dead yet!
I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception. I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), and SRT does nothing to simplify the system. But since the "Great Ones" (tm) are advocating the system it will remain the standard and more people will continue to die because of it.
Here is just one of the numerous bogley historical threads where I rant about needles death's caused by SRT:
LAMAR & Other Stupid Ideas
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...r-Stupid-Ideas
What does "standard technique" mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
If you have to ask you are probably part of the problem.
LOVE IT, HANK!...Actually, you could push me all the way back to the original Batman series.
Happy Days choked long before Fonzie jumped the shark...when he switched from the blue jacket to the black one and became some kind of guru is when it went downhill. IMO.
Too many (most?) of these discussions derail quickly due to initial assumptions about what the other person is saying. As I am not aware of any "standard technique," I think it's a fair question to clarify what you are trying to say. Unless you don't want to discuss, which is fine...Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
hank
Yep. Along similar lines, the Flintstones died when that little green alien guy started making regular appearances...well, prolly before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by twotimer
^^^YUP^^^
It's all shits and giggles until the next person dies.
Oh, just tryin' to derail two dudes from a snarky smackdown. Y'know, break things up a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I couldn't agree more. I double strand most of the time and single strand when it makes sense. I hate going with "pros" who have been canyoneering 1-7 years, and they keep telling me all the things I'm doing wrong when I double strand. And on at least two separate occasions, these "pros" have gotten my rope stuck by not unclipping the carabiner from the anchor on a single strand system they set up. And guess who has no idea how to ascend the rope to undo their mistake?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Long rant short, the "Great Ones" (tm) make single strand (and many other techniques) a matter of dogma, and no one is willing to do anything different. Super frustrating, and, at times, dangerous.
> post deleted by author <
I just figured most were smart enough to figure it out on their own... But for the intellectually challenged here ya go....Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
It means if I sit at the first rappel of ***insert name of any popular CP canyon here*** it will be the rappel method used most often.
Or as I said, if you have to ask consider yourself part of the problem. I mean what the hell, you're only killing a couple of people a year when they f**k up SRT.
Like Iceaxe said, it's what people use most commonly. By standard technique, I mean, when I lead a canyon and someone else who's been trained in canyoneering inspects the first rap I set up, they look at me and ask why I'm not single stranding. I've never not had this happen. And it's happened a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by hank moon
By the pros, I mean that all these people that always insist on me using single strand (or at least comment on how unsafe I am with double strand) always mention a canyoneering training course they took from so-and-so or a canyoneering training trip they went on with so-and-so.
Now that I've defined those two things, I think I'm done defining stuff. Most people think I'm usually pretty clear on what I'm saying.
Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.
Climbers have given thought to single strand quite awhile ago...(1872 reference below):Quote:
Originally Posted by qedcook
Attachment 87601
Most rope techniques for climbing developed in Europe. Seems like, historically, folks climbing in Europe would use a double rope system for especially harder routes. Makes sense then, that, when rappelling, they'd rappel on both strands of rope.
There's been a few high profile accidents of climbers using SRT and having that system fail them (recent Yosemite rappel gone wrong comes to mind):
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...822#msg1165822
I think a few climbers have given some thought to not using tag lines due to a few known accidents out there.
Also, climbing anchors aren't necessarily configured for single rope rappelling:
Attachment 87602
I started climbing in the early 80's, and, my dad was a climber in the 50's. What was taught back then, whether a dulfersitz or figure eight or whatever technique, was always on doubled ropes.
Climbers use and talk about single strand, but not nearly as often as they use or talk about double strand.
@qedcook, thanks for clarifying what you mean by "standard technique" - that was helpful. I haven't seen the same thing out there, so your perspective is enlightening. Might be interesting to start a project of gathering field data on SRT usage. For example, spend a day hanging out at every Pine Creek (ZION) rap to observe what folks are doing. Cameras would be even better. Get some real numbers. Hmm....Quote:
Originally Posted by qedcook
Also useful to hear what you mean by "the pros" To me, an "pro" is either a literal professional (e.g. an experienced guide) or perhaps simply a competent person (e.g. Bo Beck). There are other possibilities, nuances, etc. Whereas to you, a pro might simply be a random canyoneer being preachy about your choice of technique? Or by "all these people" did you have specific individuals in mind? If so, call 'em out!
re: your question about the climbing community and SRT. As @Brian in SLC pointed out, climbers do use SRT. In fact, some climbers are using canyon-style SRT when traveling ultra-light. Cavers are doing this, too. Petzl has promoted a variation of the Reepschnur technique (essentially a backed-up knot block) since the launch of the Grigri belay device in 1991.
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Be...-a-single-rope
Yes. Double strand raps might be considered Standard Technique® in the climbing world. And there are reasons for that. Brian already pointed out the traditional use of half or twin ropes in European climbing. There are other reasons. Note that "double rope technique" in climbing bears no relation to DRT in canyoneering. Apples and Oranges (more like Apples and Durian). Canyoneers are mostly going down. Climbers are going up, and then down, using ropes for descending only when necessary. Climbers don't like to rappel (generally, culturally). Climbers are not doing 300' raps in a single pitch, or rope length. The list goes on. In short, there are fewer reasons to use SRT in climbing. DRT works fine due to shorter pitch lengths, lack of water hazards, etc. SRT is mostly used in climbing when going ultra-light. This ultra-light approach also exists in canyoneering, but it is one of the weaker reasons to choose SRT, in general. YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by qedcook
I Do not usually rappel single strand when climbing, but have had to a couple of times on long routes when one of two ropes became damaged.
Whether or not you prefer SRT it can be VERY useful in scenarios where ropes get compromised.:haha:
SRT is a great tool and is the only way to roll in class C canyons. It just shouldn't be the "standard" technique for 90% of the Colorado Plateau canyons unless you have a legitimate reason.
On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.