Fiddlestix Anchors

So I've run across quite a few mentions of Fiddlestix anchors lately. I know the concept, releasable knot with a bar holding it together. Rap down, pull the bar, knot comes apart and voila, no rope pull; similar concept to omni-sling.

Early conversations were discussing what to use for the bar (wooden dowel, metal bar, etc) as well as just using something similar to an overhand stone, or using closer to a figure 8 stone knot. Was wondering if folks would shed light on what they have been using and what they have seen work and not work?

Pictures especially helpful, especially regarding the knot being tied...

Note: I've seen these two posts:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...w-Do-You-Stein
and
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...ht=fiddlestick

However, this is just showing the strand isolation method of the stein, which I've used a fair bit. The second post talks about what folks have been using for the block. Thought it would be good to have a comprehensive discussion on what folks are using for the releasable version, and maybe tips on what folks have found that work and don't work. (Like Tom eluding to using the upward knots, which I'll have to play with to see why.) Interested to see what else folks have learned, as it seems those anchors are getting more used recently. Always looking to learn what folks are
using; to possibly add another tool to the toolbox...


Thanks for any info,
A.J.

Hi AJ, heres a pic last week in Mystery.

Quite a bit of use in canyons lately, the best way to get a consistant release is the upward stein!!! Not an upward overhand.

Have used mostly on 8mm lines but in testing last week I used Toms old 9mm steel cable line. Known for it's lack of having a nice hand. We had it also release quite easily.

While your looking at pictures and thinking they only show an isolation technique, in reality you are not able to see that one end of stein is a 2-3' tail only, not another rap line. Hope that helps some.

I still use and sometimes prefer my own variation on the omni sling method, only I use webbing.

As an addendum--I really trust this system to not pre-release but as good practice, and as seen in this pic--back up is a wise choice for all but the last.

We've been dialing in the material to figure out what will work best. The wood
when it gets wet has too much friction - perhaps with the right finish, it would
be good, but... The 1/2" Easton pole segments works for me (Tom), but it is
quite slippery, and other people find it spooky. The recycled sail battens
Brendan is using seem to have the correct balance of slickness and stick, and
they do not change properties when wet, and don't hurt too bad when they nail
you from 60 feet.

So, that is the delay in the release of the "product". My tumble also makes me a
bit more cautious about putting things out there, as I also thought the Water
Trap was pretty close to ready to go. I'm thinking about releasing the
"information" version rather than the "product" version, though there is
considerable liability associated with that, too.

Tom

Thanks Tom and oldno7.

On one side being a short tail - Duh. I guess I should get more than a few hours of sleep per night. ;)

oldno7: Would love to hear more about the webbing version of the omnisling if you are willing to share...

Tom: I understand your hesitation, and hope you are all healed now. (Thought I saw you back to playing; so think so...)


Thanks again,
A.J.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

recycled sail battens

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Ahhh, that's the material used for the toggle... A friend of mine had one of the batten toggles that he showed when using the releasable stone knot; it worked pretty nice and did seem to have a good balance of slickness and stick... I wasn't sure what type of material it was so I questioned him on whether or not it would carry the load exerted on it during a rappel, especially if it was a very large person as some of my friends are... :0) and/or if there was a lot of bouncing on the line during the rappel... I guess sail battens have a pretty descent breaking strength and don't weigh much... Thanks for the post, Tom... :2thumbs:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Summit2Sea

Ahhh, that's the material used for the toggle... A friend of mine had one of the batten toggles that he showed when using the releasable stone knot; it worked pretty nice and did seem to have a good balance of slickness and stick... I wasn't sure what type of material it was so I questioned him on whether or not it would carry the load exerted on it during a rappel, especially if it was a very large person as some of my friends are... :0) and/or if there was a lot of bouncing on the line during the rappel... I guess sail battens have a pretty descent breaking strength and don't weigh much... Thanks for the post, Tom... :2thumbs:

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The fiddlestick does not actually "carry the load". There is a bending force applied to the stick that is fairly low. How low? Well, I remember being able to do this sort of physics/mechanics problem, but it has been many years since then. Perhaps a recent E-school graduate could run the equations.

Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldno7

Hi AJ, heres a pic last week in Mystery.

Quite a bit of use in canyons lately, the best way to get a consistant release is the upward stein!!! Not an upward overhand.

Have used mostly on 8mm lines but in testing last week I used Toms old 9mm steel cable line. Known for it's lack of having a nice hand. We had it also release quite easily.

While your looking at pictures and thinking they only show an isolation technique, in reality you are not able to see that one end of stein is a 2-3' tail only, not another rap line. Hope that helps some.

I still use and sometimes prefer my own variation on the omni sling method, only I use webbing.

---

So, do you mean that a fiddlestick works better on a rope with more hand or less hand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ilipichicuma

So, do you mean that a fiddlestick works better on a rope with more hand or less hand?

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If done properly--It shouldn't matter.........

But either require a backup.

Here is the one I have been playing with A.J. It is a 1/2 inch aluminum rod with a hole drilled for a keeper to go on the other side. The keeper is tied into the pull side to release prior to pulling the tubing out. Has the possiblility of knocking you silly on the way down. Yea I know need to clean up my work bench.

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Here is the one I have been playing with A.J. It is a 1/2 inch aluminum rod with a hole drilled for a keeper to go on the other side. The keeper is tied into the pull side to release prior to pulling the tubing out. Has the possiblility of knocking you silly on the way down. Yea I know need to clean up my work bench.

Mark

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Very cool... "Nice" release design!!! Is the keeper you're using a cotter pin/hairpin??? :0)

Yes it is a keeper like you use on the hitch of a truck just smaller diameter.

I have added the Stone Knot to the new-new Tech Tips on the Canyoneering USA website...

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/t...secret-weapon/

Tom

Would you guys care to explain the benefits/reasons for using a fiddlestick? Are we talking tree bark conservation and rope groove prevention? That's all I've come up with. Feel free to answer with some variation of "well, if you don't know then you shouldn't be thinking about using one. Stick to canyons like Yankee Doodle and the Narrows, noob."

More helpful though would be discussion on situations where you think the fiddlestick is superior to other methods and why. Thanks.

I'm thinking of one of those crappy pulls where it can get stuck while you're pulling the mess through. With the fiddlestick you just pull it out and the whole thing drops down. Saves your rope from wear and the canyon from grooves as well. Cliff and I are going to play around with it a bit this weekend but I haven't actually used it yet. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Having never used a fiddlestick, I am curious: what advantages does it have over block/pull cord combo? Not "in theory" but in practice. Can anyone who has used it extensively give a short list of real advantages (not imagined ones) over block/pull cord?

Yeah, what Hank said.

Big advantages of a Fiddlestick Anchor

1. Can use anchors you would not otherwise consider. Things back from the edge quite a ways, things that are really big.
2. You don't leave webbing behind.
- 2a. Leaving crap in canyons is leaving crap in canyons. Minimizing the crap we leave in canyons is a good thing.
- 2b. Not leaving webbing in canyons means you don't need to bring as much webbing on explorations as you used to, and manage the gradual diminishment of that webbing.
3. Not pulling the rope through tends to minimize rope grooves.
4. Since you are not pulling a rope through, you can tie ropes together to rappel with. In some cases this means you can build fewer anchors.
5. Leaving a canyon with nothing in it means the next party can also have a first-descent experience.
6. It is often fast and easy.

Tom :moses:

Any one tried PVC? Light and strong and cheap. Too sticky?

In our experiments, we've noticed a few things:

1. smaller diameter better - has less stick.
2. wood - changes when wet...
3. aluminum pole tubing may be too slippery. A little spooky.

Tom

Hmmm. May have to snip off some sprinkler pipe and see what happens.

Tom, thanks for the details. Looking forward to trying it out sometime.

Gavin and I tested a piece of half-inch PVC in my garage on Friday. It was initially too slippery but after we made it rougher with some sandpaper it was perfect! Pulled out great when not weighted but stayed put when weighted. We're just not sure if it will stay rough or if we'd have to take sandpaper to it every few uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ilipichicuma

We're just not sure if it will stay rough or if we'd have to take sandpaper to it every few uses.

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This will not be a problem. In most canyons, you have 300 foot vertical sheets of sand paper down the whole canyon. :haha:

The pics posted in this thread show a setup that still requires pulling, I want to see pics of someone's setup that releases the whole thing at the anchor. I have a setup I've been toying with which involves an aluminum rap ring and a 5"x1/2 " fiberglass rod. Before I post pics I way to see others pictures.

One of the tails is short, only a foot past the stein knot. You just can't see this in the pictures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ilipichicuma

Gavin and I tested a piece of half-inch PVC in my garage on Friday. It was initially too slippery but after we made it rougher with some sandpaper it was perfect! Pulled out great when not weighted but stayed put when weighted. We're just not sure if it will stay rough or if we'd have to take sandpaper to it every few uses.

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Drill a hole thru the other end and put a keeper thru the hole. See my above picture, works great and much safer.:nod:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

Drill a hole thru the other end and put a keeper thru the hole. See my above picture, works great and much safer.:nod:

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Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll play with that next. :2thumbs:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghawk

Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll play with that next. :2thumbs:

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Using it in the field, it is not at all clear that a "keeper" or "safety" is desirable. Brendan's Mark I have a safety, and we have gone to not using it.

Tom

How long is Brendan's sail baton?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moab mark

How long is Brendan's sail baton?

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Six to eight inches.

T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Using it in the field, it is not at all clear that a "keeper" or "safety" is desirable. Brendan's Mark I have a safety, and we have gone to not using it.

Tom

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Is a friction hitch, looks like a kleimhiest in the pics, the preferred back up for all but the last man at risk? Are there any other back up techniques being used?

Generally, we put a carabiner in the knot for all but the last person, essentially Stoning the Knot, though with one short end. Mainly because the knot tightens around the stick, making the pull difficult. Thus, it is desirable to have the knot loosened before the last person rappels, so it only has one person's tightening on it before the pull.

Of course, if the fiddle-sticked anchor is questionable, then it should be backed up (or a better choice made).

Tom :moses:

We just biner block and then I stone it when I go. Have only used it a couple of times in the real world but the concept is slick. IMO the best part is how much faster you can move along due to the fact that you start bagging both ropes immediately. It can create a spaghetti mess if the landing area is small due to two ropes piling up on top of each other. You also can drop two bags, one for pull one for rappel and do not have to bag any additional rope then what is needed.

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bootboy

The pics posted in this thread show a setup that still requires pulling, I want to see pics of someone's setup that releases the whole thing at the anchor. I have a setup I've been toying with which involves an aluminum rap ring and a 5"x1/2 " fiberglass rod. Before I post pics I way to see others pictures.

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Not sure it was clear, Bootboy. When doing the stone, one end of the rope is short. Once the fiddlestick is pulled, the short section of the rope just needs to be pulled out from around the object.

You can see this on the last picture on this page:

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/t...secret-weapon/

Tom

On a similar note, I just transferred the Omnisling writeup to the new blog:

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/t...the-omnisling/

Tom :moses:

We experimented the other day and had all 5 people rap on the stone with a wooden dowel, it tightened considerably(as expected) it pulled but was indeed difficult.
Last person certainly needs to re-dress the hitch.

I'll add another thumbs-up for these things. My friends and I just got back from Zion, where we used my PVC fiddlestick several times, both in wet and dry conditions. It worked awesome every time and we are converted. Not the best for every situation, but definitely a great ghosting technique!

PVC--You are welcome. :haha:

I too have been experimenting with the PVC version and am really sold. I started with 3/4" and now have gone to 1/2" Sch 40. Some course grit sandpaper makes it very sticky.

I did have one little oops with it a couple weeks ago... I set up the FS on the first bypass rap into Egypt 2 which is about 50'. This was the third time on the trip that we used this particular FS. The design of this stick had a cap on the end of the pipe so that the pull cord would be coming out the end of the pipe and not the side, making it easier to pull in sketchy situations. This is what it looked like before I was the last to rap in:


Attachment 54559


Once the three of us rapped in, I went to pull the FS out. Apparently I forgot to glue the damn thing together. So, all that came down was the cap, and the actual stick portion stayed in the knot. So there we are with our only rope stuck. Because I could not see the condition of the FS, I was not going to jug back up it. We decided our best option to head down canyon with what gear we had. Turns out that rapping on doubled 6mm Imlay pullcord stuffed in the same side of an ATC works pretty good in an emergency. We finished teh E2/E3 loop and retrieved the rope on the way out. Below is what it looked like when we found it. Really stupid mistake on my part, but it worked out OK. Needless to say, my design now does not have two pieces glued (or not glued) together.

Attachment 54578