Bad beta is dangerous

I took a group of newbies out for the first time this week. We had some very timid and small people going, so I was trying to be very cautious. I asked around about a couple canyons, and was told the places I was looking to go to we're absolutely dry! 2 days prior to our trip. No rain or dropped between then and the next two days. After we dropped in to the first canyon we encountered LOTS of water. Several of my group could not stem across it, and ended up swimming 4 stretches. Everyone got very wet due to the water. One of my group got extremely cold and hypothermic, and it took us over an hour to get his body temperature back to where he could function.

PLEASE, if you don't REALLY know the conditions of a canyon, don't give beta just on an assumption. We could have easily brought wetsuits etc. but didn't as we're we're told it was absolutely dry. This experience turned out okay, but it could have been much worse.

I'm happy to hear that all is ok.

If you had NOT asked around, how would you have done things regarding the selection of a canyon?

What will you do differently next time?

Felicia

You werent part of the special, ultra top secret, whispered code word only, you-have-to-be-born-into-it-so-just-give-up-now, elite, all star team, so you were probably given incorrect beta to make sure you "didnt spoil the canyon" with your noob presence.

After all, these canyons are just playgrounds for "one or two groups per year of experienced canyoneers only," right?

Seriously though, glad to hear everyone is ok. sounds like some conditions popped up that were unexpected. Sorry you had a rough go but again, at least everyone came out ok! Thats what counts.

(re engage sarcasm generator)

Maybe next time you should ASK first, and then someone can SHOW you, so that way they DONT have to TELL anything about the canyon. Because letting someone go into any canyon without the express written signed-in-triplicate approval of "the pros" is just not what were after here.

What canyon were you doing?

Sorry to hear it. What canyon was it? I've known 'dry' to mean more dry than other years, but really not 'DRY'. I hope next time turns out better.

I've had that happen before. First time I went into Boundary the description said it was supposed to be dry (since, apparently, before a couple years ago it always was) and my friend almost got hypothermia. Our route descriptions got destroyed in the water (didn't have a dry bag) and we ended up getting lost and having to spend the night in the MIA exit. Glad you all made it out okay! I learned my lesson that time, though, to be better prepared for those kinds of things. Now, generally, if there's even a chance of a lot of water, my friends and I will drag our wetsuits through the canyons. That's caused us some pretty major chagrin in the past (wetsuits are flippin' heavy!) but it's better safe than sorry.

We had brought wetsuits with us on the trip, but left them at the hotel as I eas assured this canyon was dry. It is usually dry, and not a problem, but i was worried with the recent wet weather we might hit some water. We planned on pine creek on Saturday, and knew we would need wetsuits there, so we came prepared for that.

I am NOT trying to throw anyone under the bus here, nor am I trying to stir back up the whole not sharing general beta on a canyon. This canyon is highly bolted, widely known, and regularly used, so no secret handshake required. What I am saying is if someone asks if anyone has been down a very widely known canyon in the last few days, and knows conditions do one of 2 things.

1. Either do not reply at all if you don't absolutely know.

2. Give good data.

If I had received no reply we would have taken full gear including wetsuits, and different clothes. This trip for us then would have been a non-event.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

I'm happy to hear that all is ok.

If you had NOT asked around, how would you have done things regarding the selection of a canyon?

What will you do differently next time?

Felicia

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Felicia,

We would have chosen exactly the same canyon. Next time we will ignore any and all suggestions and just do our thing

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Originally Posted by nieder81

What canyon were you doing?

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:popcorn:

Is this about the Yankee Doodle info I gave you a while back?

By declining to say what canyon, where, you create an air of great mystery, essentially a Rorschach test.

Was it deliberate endangerment (paranoia, the destroyer)?
Incompetent leadership?
A quick change due to weather?
A mis-interpretation of what someone said?
A guess made by someone, presented as knowledge?

You don't need to name names if you don't want to, but for this to be a 'teaching moment', perhaps a few more details could be released.

Personally, I'm pretty sure it is DeathCricket's fault. Elvis: "oh, oh, it's nobody's fault, but it just seems to be his turn."

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Personally, I'm pretty sure it is DeathCricket's fault. Elvis: "oh, oh, it's nobody's fault, but it just seems to be his turn."

Tom :moses:

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No it seriously might be (my fault), I'm pretty sure I told this dude yankee doodle was bone dry a week or so ago. I recall a couple puddles (when I did it 3 weeks ago) but nothing more than 3 inches deep. *shrug* Coudda screwed him over, but honestly I've never went through yankee doodle and needed wetsuits. Flies start getting nasty though and I would be more concerned about those. :lol8:

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

No it seriously might be (my fault), I'm pretty sure I told this dude yankee doodle was bone dry a week or so ago. I recall a couple puddles (when I did it 3 weeks ago) but nothing more than 3 inches deep. *shrug* Coudda screwed him over, but honestly I've never went through yankee doodle and needed wetsuits. Flies start getting nasty though and I would be more concerned about those. :lol8:

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you elitist asshole. screw you and your misleading yankee doodle beta. :roflol:

If this is about Yankee Doodle, how quickly does it dry out?

I am debating a trip through sometime this coming weekend. Going to have one newbie with me and another who is an experienced climber with one canyon under his belt. Main purpose of the trip is to relax, do a bit of hiking, and a couple days of mountain biking. Was thinking I could sneak a canyon in, but I am the only one with neoprene and it is not worth the hassle of the others renting for 1 short canyon.

If wet, I will just have to wait a few weeks to get my fix...

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

you elitist asshole. screw you and your misleading yankee doodle beta. :roflol:

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Bogley Karma-Swift and only slightly forgiving.:haha::haha:

Honestly trying very hard to not stir the pot here, so I was trying to be a little circumspect. DC you did give me the beta for yankee doodle, I did appreciate the response, and I know that you were genuinely trying to be helpful.

The only reason I threw the question out, was about a week ago I was driving through St George, and got caught in a huge storm! In the interest of safety, and the enjoyment of my first time friends, i just wanted to cover all of my bases. Although everyone I have ever spoken with has found Yankee doodle dry, it did not become a slot canyon without water. In fact if we had of just brought shorties and some neoprene socks in our shoes, it would have been a blast playing in the water.

As the canyon leader, it is 100% my fault if we, we're in any way unprepared. Fortunately due to the length of the canyon, short, and the perfect warm sunny day, ther was a minimum that could have gone horribly wrong. The rappel in was great, the trees were flowering, and the weather was perfect. We all made it home safely, just a longer day then we expected. I will try and download some pictures tomorrow when I get to my computer. Not set up to do it from my mobile.

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

you elitist asshole. screw you and your misleading yankee doodle beta. :roflol:

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It's really his own fault though, for the secret handshake he used the "shocker" and we all know it's the "spocker" which involves two fingers.

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

It's really his own fault though, for the secret handshake he used the "shocker" and we all know it's the "spocker" which involves two fingers.

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how can it be HIS fault? you are the elitist douche who provided the beta. it's YOUR responsibility to share beta with the community.

i mean, come on, this is yankee doodle we're talking about.

yankee.
F#CKIN'
doodle.

that place is serious. someone is seriously going to die in there if you keep this attitude up. you can't just be all cavalier, giving people shit for beta. you have an obligation to this community to share beta with anyone who asks. and i mean ACCURATE RELIABLE beta, none of this misleading elitist bullshit. i'm talking maps with entrances and exits and escapes, photos of the anchor solutions, illustrations of obstacles in various depths of water, calendars with averages for rainfall in the area, median temperatures, preferred wetsuit thickness, number of carabiners, etc...

i mean seriously, we can't just have people in this community looking at google earth, wandering into random canyons, taking personal responsibility for their actions, making reasonable decisions for themselves, exploring places for fun, and then keeping it all to themselves.

these people have a right to know about OUR canyons. intentionally withholding valuable information is going to kill someone.

and their blood will be on your head, deathcricket.

I know I know. I agree with everything you said. it's just I'm new to this secret community and not a pro when getting the reach around like you guys are. I'm sure if you go back to the first time you received the secret handshake and oral pleasure you probably didn't get your beta right either. All I'm asking is that the "A team" give me a little leniency this one time! I'm sure with a little practice I'll be handing out beta to my "special" friends as a pro like the rest of you. :2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by skiclimb3287

If this is about Yankee Doodle, how quickly does it dry out?

I am debating a trip through sometime this coming weekend. Going to have one newbie with me and another who is an experienced climber with one canyon under his belt. Main purpose of the trip is to relax, do a bit of hiking, and a couple days of mountain biking. Was thinking I could sneak a canyon in, but I am the only one with neoprene and it is not worth the hassle of the others renting for 1 short canyon.

If wet, I will just have to wait a few weeks to get my fix...

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Yankee Doodle dries out quick. And I bet it was 100 degrees there today, so...

Even when it has water in it, it is usually possible to avoid most of it with some careful climb-arounds and stemming.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

All I'm asking is that the "A team" give me a little leniency this one time! I'm sure with a little practice I'll be handing out beta to my "special" friends as a pro like the rest of you. :2thumbs:

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i'm sure they'll forgive you. clearly, you don't make it to the big leagues until you've struck out a few times in the minors...

but giving beta away for free is bush league anyways. the only people who give away free beta are ego-maniacal elitist pricks obsessed with legend building. the guys on the real "A TEAM?" they SELL beta.

trust me, before you know it, even DeathCricket can be pullin' down $40 a pop, selling back to the community the beta that supposedly belongs to all of us anyways. because, you know, freely sharing beta with people you actually meet in person is old school, it'll die with the graybeards. the new wave isn't into that. we all know people who share beta by word of mouth are revolting, pompous asses.

but people who share beta by selling it to you? those are your true friends. those are the types of people we need more of in this community. give away beta for free around a campfire, and you are an elitist asshole. but throw a price tag on it and sell it? that, my friend, is when you've truly arrived. only then, can you really call yourself the "A TEAM."

:facepalm1:

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Yankee Doodle dries out quick. And I bet it was 100 degrees there today, so...

Even when it has water in it, it is usually possible to avoid most of it with some careful climb-arounds and stemming.

Tom

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Thanks Tom! :2thumbs:

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: OK, so much for the only slightly forgiving part.

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

...

but people who share beta by selling it to you? those are your true friends. those are the types of people we need more of in this community. give away beta for free around a campfire, and you are an elitist asshole. but throw a price tag on it and sell it? that, my friend, is when you've truly arrived. only then, can you really call yourself the "A TEAM."

:facepalm1:

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You guys can see why we made Carpey Pledgemaster for this year's class... :crazy:

Tom

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

how can it be HIS fault? you are the elitist douche who provided the beta. it's YOUR responsibility to share beta with the community.

i mean, come on, this is yankee doodle we're talking about.

yankee.
F#CKIN'
doodle.

that place is serious. someone is seriously going to die in there if you keep this attitude up. you can't just be all cavalier, giving people shit for beta. you have an obligation to this community to share beta with anyone who asks. and i mean ACCURATE RELIABLE beta, none of this misleading elitist bullshit. i'm talking maps with entrances and exits and escapes, photos of the anchor solutions, illustrations of obstacles in various depths of water, calendars with averages for rainfall in the area, median temperatures, preferred wetsuit thickness, number of carabiners, etc...

i mean seriously, we can't just have people in this community looking at google earth, wandering into random canyons, taking personal responsibility for their actions, making reasonable decisions for themselves, exploring places for fun, and then keeping it all to themselves.

these people have a right to know about OUR canyons. intentionally withholding valuable information is going to kill someone.

and their blood will be on your head, deathcricket.

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Best post ever !!
I am sure Gigantor would approve..:haha:

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Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

i'm sure they'll forgive you. clearly, you don't make it to the big leagues until you've struck out a few times in the minors...

but giving beta away for free is bush league anyways. the only people who give away free beta are ego-maniacal elitist pricks obsessed with legend building. the guys on the real "A TEAM?" they SELL beta.

trust me, before you know it, even DeathCricket can be pullin' down $40 a pop, selling back to the community the beta that supposedly belongs to all of us anyways. because, you know, freely sharing beta with people you actually meet in person is old school, it'll die with the graybeards. the new wave isn't into that. we all know people who share beta by word of mouth are revolting, pompous asses.

but people who share beta by selling it to you? those are your true friends. those are the types of people we need more of in this community. give away beta for free around a campfire, and you are an elitist asshole. but throw a price tag on it and sell it? that, my friend, is when you've truly arrived. only then, can you really call yourself the "A TEAM."

:facepalm1:

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CarpeyBiggs you're my hero.

Water in Yankee? Wetsuits? Nah! Yankee Doodle is always DRY! There aren't that many bolts in there are there?

:scared::facepalm1::haha::crazy::doorpeak::Ahnuld: :dropmouth::shock:


It was FREAKING COLD!!!!! in there that day we went and it was not winter! :cold::cold:

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Originally Posted by tanya

:scared::facepalm1::haha::crazy::doorpeak::Ahnuld: :dropmouth::shock:

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:eek2: The female mind is the last mysterious and undiscovered fronteer that will never be understood by men. Perhaps Blueeyes or someone will translate this.


:lol8: (Just teasin' Tanya)

That's easy! I did not bring a wetsuit because it was dang hot out, so my best friend and all around lovable guy - BO BECK!!! Let me wear his!!!! He FROZE his buns!!!!! Who could ask for a nicer hiking partner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cold: <---- BO! -----> :stud:

PS... Thanks for Yesterday too Bo!


The odd thing Scott, is I am told all the time that I think like a male. I really have little luck with the females trying to get me! I am better as - just one of the GUYS! The more estrogen a female has too, the worse it is! :crazycobasa: ---- EXCEPT Savannah!!!! She is just like me! I love her and she understands me!


Bo does it all with a great big smile too!

Attachment 53093

Wow DC, you really got the ream job. Did you give the date that you were in the canyon and it was dry? Or did you just assume it still was? If the latter was the case, then indeed you deserve a flogging. I wouldn't be afraid to get conditions beta here, just ask the right question...WHEN WERE YOU LAST THERE? And for God's sake, bullshitting never pays off. I figured that out in the 8th grade when I was caught in a big lie and they badgered me for months. This'll straighten your ass out, eh DC?

Oh, thanks Tanya. Makes perfect sense.....:wtf: :haha:

I am just having fun with ya.

I'm going to attempt to use some "Tact", something that seems to be drowned by "spite and ego". Whoever made this post originally obviously had some concern? It's a weird world we live in when coupled with ATTITUDE! Deathcricket....you instigator! What the hell gives you the right to tell someone that a canyon could be safe! WTF! I don't G.A.S. if you took your BFF Jill through on a full moon! State the facts would you? Maybe there are 27 bolts, but what if just 3 of those bolts are gone????? Can you imagine the possibilities that might ensue???? Come on Jacob....jeeze! I trusted a friend just like you this weekend. Went fishing on Baker Reservoir. Said that the previous weekend that he'd overturned the canoe with a friend. Sure enough he overturned the canoe with me. Lifelong experience.. I will certainly not canoe with just beta next time. Canoeing is something that you must do only with those that you would pay for beta,Just a thought? Watch the fiilm 180 Degrees South. Yvonne and Doug sum it up pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

Oh, thanks Tanya. Makes perfect sense.....:wtf: :haha:

I am just having fun with ya.

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I know! :lol8:
You are a lawyer. You are just looking for logic. I wander :bandit: Don't look for the logic.



My usual disclaimer:
I have not read this whole thread - but I take all advise and then use my own sense. If I decided to bring a wetsuit or not, it was my fault or to my credit. It's good to get peoples opinions but ultimately what you do is AT YOUR OWN RISK. Use your head. Don't blame others. You are responsible for yourself. Always research many forms of beta before going and at least bring the wetsuits. When you get there and look at the conditions you might just leave them in the car. Funny thing is that I think I asked if Yankee was going to be dry when Bo and I did and the answer I got was bone dry. I was the fool for not being prepared - just in case. Bo on the other hand, took a wet suit --the man is always prepared. I do remember who told me it was dry, but it was only his opinion based on the best knowledge he had at the time.

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Originally Posted by tanya

That's easy! I did not bring a wetsuit because it was dang hot out, so my best friend and all around lovable guy - BO BECK!!! Let me wear his!!!! He FROZE his buns!!!!! Who could ask for a nicer hiking partner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cold: <---- BO! -----> :stud:

PS... Thanks for Yesterday too Bo!


The odd thing Scott, is I am told all the time that I think like a male. I really have little luck with the females trying to get me! I am better as - just one of the GUYS! The more estrogen a female has too, the worse it is! :crazycobasa: ---- EXCEPT Savannah!!!! She is just like me! I love her and she understands me!


Bo does it all with a great big smile too!

Attachment 53093

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Thank you Tanya. It was an awesome day! Tell Tom that I want to loan him the Tommy Emmanuel DVD. I won't charge him either! It was so nice to get out again! I so look forward to our next outing. BTW....the round trip to Dbl. Arch Alcove is 5 miles and where I turned around was just a mile upcanyon....Tom was great and I saw no gorillas. You ROCK Tanya!

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Originally Posted by Bo_Beck

Thank you Tanya. It was an awesome day! Tell Tom that I want to loan him the Tommy Emmanuel DVD. I won't charge him either! It was so nice to get out again! I so look forward to our next outing. BTW....the round trip to Dbl. Arch Alcove is 5 miles and where I turned around was just a mile upcanyon....Tom was great and I saw no gorillas. You ROCK Tanya!

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Huge Hug!!!! :feelgood: Yeah, Gorilla was too tired!

I wonder if Scot's - male brain gets that one. :lol8:


PS - It was not me that toppled Bo's Canoe! I was not even there. :twisted:

The thread in question?

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...tions&p=494500

Sounds like Bo earned his golden shrinkage merit badge!!!

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Originally Posted by bigred72

Sounds like Bo earned his golden shrinkage merit badge!!!

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:lol8:

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Originally Posted by Scott P

The thread in question?

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...tions&p=494500

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Yeah that's the one. :haha:

I'm actually tempted to go back this weekend and see it for myself but it's getting too hot now. And I still don't believe it has water in it and conditions changed that much in 3 weeks since I was there last.

@Bo - Those pics you posted are from a couple years ago right? Not last weekend?

Further curious, I also took the liberty of checking our favorite site candition.com and others besides me are encountering dry conditions when they go through. Here is the last 4 months data.

http://candition.com/canyons/yankee-doodle

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http://candition.com/images/default_...png?1325742476 basecamp5
http://candition.com/images/rating/blue_user.png 4 out of 5
Date of Trip: April 2, 2012
http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_open.png Short and sweet, 3 water sections, can pass with stemming, no bugs. http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_closed.png


http://candition.com/images/default_...png?1325742476 Nielse2
http://candition.com/images/rating/green_user.png 3 out of 5
Date of Trip: March 1, 2012
http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_open.png mostly dry, a bit of stemming and you can stay completely dry. http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_closed.png


http://candition.com/images/default_...png?1325742476 pescarconganas
http://candition.com/images/rating/green_user.png 3 out of 5
Date of Trip: January 15, 2012
http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_open.png Totally dry. Was a beautiful day. Lots of unnecessary bolts. http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_closed.png


http://candition.com/images/default_...png?1325742476 deathtointernet
http://candition.com/images/rating/blue_user.png 4 out of 5
Date of Trip: December 29, 2011
http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_open.png Still dry, as long as you can stem over or leap across a single puddle a couple inches deep. Is in good shape. http://candition.com/images/rating/quote_closed.png

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