Surprise, surprise in Utah teachers get sh#tty pay, and the largest class sizes in the nation:facepalm1:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...title=4_Utah_C
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Surprise, surprise in Utah teachers get sh#tty pay, and the largest class sizes in the nation:facepalm1:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...title=4_Utah_C
Too many blasted kids!!! :lol8:
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#4 Utah (C-)
http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slides...?1302319569338
Average Salary 2010/2011: $46,571
Number of Enrolled Students Per Teacher 2010/2011: 22.3 (50th)
Average National Assessment of Educational Progress Math Score 2009: 284.06 (28th)
Average National Assessment of Educational Progress Reading Score 2009: 265.59 (23rd)
Average Daily Attendance as a % of Fall Enrollment 2010/2011: 75.5% (50th)
High School Graduation Rate as % of Fall Enrollment 2010/2011: 5.23% (49th)
Legislators are considering a bill that would forbid school districts from employing a "last hired, first fired" approach toward layoffs. Gov. Gary Hebert has criticized lawmakers for cutting his proposed spending deeply. "A report by two Georgetown researchers indicated that 66 percent of all jobs in Utah -- approximately 1 million -- will require some post-secondary training or education beyond high school in 2018," according to the Desert News.
Read more at 24/7 Wall St.
:angryfire: This has chapped my hide for years. People in Utah poop out kids on full-automatic but they don't want to educate them past potty training (if they take it that far). It's just plain stupid. I got a public education in Utah and I managed to learn quite a bit, but I had certain teachers that I would qualify as incompetent.
Teachers deserve better pay if only because they're expected to be glorified baby sitters for people's unruly brats. In some countries you can't even be a teacher unless you graduated in the top 1/3 of your class. Teacher pay needs to be competetive with other fields to draw the best and the brightest away from industry and business. That will weed the riff raff out of the teaching ranks. It will take almost a generation to see monitary results as the newly educated become productive members of society, but the dividends will surely come.
Oh yah, they need to let teachers use the paddle and red pen. These little brats can have some self esteem when they actually accomplish something.
I see several problems. Let the teachers discipline kids. If the punk deserves it, the teacher's doing him a favor!Quote:
Originally Posted by moabfool
But deeper then that, it's a parent issue as well. Parents need to demand something of their kids and actually take part in educating their kids. Actually being a part of the kid's life is a better plan, but I'm starting small here.
I think there is a huge lie out there that you need a teaching certificate or teaching degree to teach. There are tons of well qualified individuals out there who don't have the cert and so can't teach something that they're fully competent in and enthusiastic about.
One other thing is you get a lot of girls here in Utah that want a degree that they can be a mom with too. Typically they think teaching or nursing.
Ugh I'm completely opposite opinion. Private schools perform better on every level you can think of, while public schools continually get worse no matter how much money you throw at them. I would say about this point they are a complete joke. I find it sad someone would suggest a "glorified babysitter" should even make $46k to begin with. Since technically I pay for teachers salary through my taxes. I say cut them as low as possible. I would compare it to being a social worker status with comparable salary, $36k sounds about right. How is a teacher more important than a firefighter or policeman who risks their life and only makes around $40k?
Let the private school teachers continue to make a great salary and perform above expectations. I personally know such a lady here in Utah who makes $74k as a private teacher. And she is worth every penny. Make parents who "poop" out 5-10 kids be responsible for paying for their education, not me dammit. It's not my fault you can't figure our birth control. Lastly, abolish the funding Bush foolishly kicked in for "every kid left behind" programs. What was that like 1.8 billion/yr? I forget..
"The NAEP results that show better math and reading scores for students in private schools may not be a result of anything the private schools do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathcricket
It could well be that those children have more highly educated, and wealthier parents, than those in public schools, on average.
We know there is a direct correlation between standardized test scores and a parent's income and education level, so reading and math scores don't make the case that those schools are actually better."
"a well-designed study released today by the Center on Education Policy that challenges decades of research on the advantages of private schools. "Contrary to popular belief, we can find no evidence that private schools actually increase student performance," said Jack Jennings, the center's president and a former staffer in the Democratic-controlled House, in a press release. "Instead, it appears that private schools simply have higher percentages of students who would perform well in any environment based on their previous performance and background."
If I could handpick all of my students I guarandamntee they would out perform the average public classroom!
But, like everywhere in the United States, an overload of dumb@$$'s :mrgreen:
:haha:
uhh did you read the rest of the article you posted? It pretty much makes my point for me. But yeah, there are probably a few "average" private schools out there too. I still don't get how you want to argue that a class of 10 isn't better in every way that a class of 22.
Quote:
Except that's not exactly what the data shows. It's true that controlling for socioeconomic status (SES) eliminates most of the public-school/private-school differences in achievement-test scores in math, reading, science and history. But even after you control for SES, Catholic schools run by holy orders (not those overseen by the local bishop) turned out to perform better than other schools studied. True, as the study says, there are only a small number of religious-order schools. But the data suggests that the type of school a kid attends does affect how well he will do — and that we could learn something from how holy orders run their schools. The Center on Education Policy, however, is an advocacy group for public schools, so it didn't look into why holy-order schools are succeeding where others fail.
The center also downplays another finding: While controlling for SES eliminated most public school/private-school differences in achievement test scores, it did not eliminate differences in the most widely used test of developed abilities, the SAT. (As I explained more fully here, developed abilities are those nurtured through schoolwork, reading, engaging a piece of art, and any other activities that spark critical thinking. Developed abilities aren't inborn traits but honed competencies, more akin to athletic skill gained through practice rather than raw IQ. By contrast, achievement tests measure the amount of material students have committed to memory in any particular field.) Combined with high-school grades, SAT scores are the best predictor of how kids will do in their freshman year of college. And the data in the new study shows that private-school students outperform public-school students on the SAT.
Isn't that just because richer private-school kids can afford to be coached more before the SAT? No — remember that this study carefully controlled for socioeconomic status. Rather, it appears private schools do more to develop students' critical-thinking abilities — not just the rote memorization required to do well on achievement tests.
In short, today's study shows that sending your kid to private school — particularly one run by a holy order like the Jesuits — is still a better way to ensure that he or she will get into college. Just don't expect all education experts to agree.
Ya I did I thought I took the link to my source out DAMNIT! :facepalm1:Quote:
uhh did you read the rest of the article you posted?
I get really tired of teachers claiming they are underpaid in Utah.
So is most every other occupation, based on National averages. If you don't like the pay scale here, PLEASE MOVE to were it is more to your liking!!!!
Theres an awful lot of people who would consider themselves wealthy on a $45,000 salary for 9 months of work.
Not to mention benefits and the almost 0% possibility of being fired...............
I get really tired of people with the love it or leave mentality. Hey George Washington you don't like the tax on tea? Move to France! Hey MLK... Obviously extreme examples but... there is nothing wrong with wanting and fighting for a better life or pay.
As for 9 months of work my contract is for 185 days ;)
The link also mentioned that Utah is the worst when it comes to class sizes. To me this is a bigger problem than my actual pay(personally I think I get paid pretty well for my contract) but having 40 hormonal 9th graders in a classroom is dang near on par with some developing nations class sizes!
Just look at the local paper. Big pictures for the kiddies scrapbooks for how their
hai-lai team whooped up on some other school. Oh look! There's a picture or Megan
right on the front page of the sports section; a ninth grader with a freakin knee brace
already in life. when she has her sixth child, I''m sure she'll have an artificial knee.
I was at the Naval Academy and saw Robinson's award winning collegiate basketball
there. Flat and dry rotted in a case.
We put so much into sports in our schools that if they threaten to ever get rid of football, parents would sell their souls to keep it. I love football. But, when the damned ship is sinking? We are so self serving and self gatifying look at me!
I'm on the front page of the sports section with my school. Somewhere next to the
clasifieds you might see a token picture of a kid who won a spelling bee.
I got my ass beat several times in school by teachers and asst pricipals.. I learned a lot of hard lessons.
I was kicked off the bus and made to walk in the rain to school. I lived too far to walk and my parents weren't about to give in and drive me. Get kicked off the bus?
You're walking.
This sports craze goes right into college, too.
Washington County tried to eliminate only 9th grade sports and it dang near turned into armageddon!Quote:
put so much into sports in our schools that if they threaten to ever get rid of football, parents would sell their souls to keep it
9th and 10th....and they SHOULD HAVE done away with 10th in the final decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattandersao
But when your pay is from US citizens(taxes), many who don't know were their next paycheck is coming from, whining about the difficulty of your chosen profession in any manner is weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattandersao
I just got done remodeling most the AT&T stores in Utah, I did it at a cost of almost 1/2 of what the same work was going for on the East coast, did I whine that my job was tough and my pay was 1/2? No==I was damn glad I had a job and was able to employ some hard working construction people who hadn't had a job for several years. Most of these hard working individuals will make considerably less than $20,000 this year, did they whine?? Oh on the contrary---they were excited to be back to work, and now they are unemployed again. You see, they have no job guarantee and before you can say, yea but people making this little amount of money don't pay taxes, let me tell you--they did, I took the money from their checks and sent it in to the fed and state, part of which went to your salary, so you can complain how bad your STEADY job is and how your guaranteed money doesn't go as far as it used too, but your cries fall on deaf ears.
Maybe now you might understand why myself and others in similar situations, grow tired of the school teacher whine.............
If your a great teacher, go into the private sector and teach for more money in private schools, but be forewarned, your pay will become dependent on your performance AND your job will no longer be guaranteed. If thats what is required to make more money in your chosen profession, I suggest you try that route before you complain again about your guaranteed Government job.
I'm on the Teacher payscale, even though I'm a computer tech for the school district. Same paycheck, benefits, days off...
I agree, it doesn't pay much annually. But then I can't really expect a good annual paycheck from working 188 days a year.
$47k a year (as cited above) with summers off? That's awesome.
Now of course I need a bit more to support my family so I strive to find work during the summer, working 12 months out of the year to make ends meet just like the rest of the working class.
My job has options to "move up" and what not, and I'm striving to make my way up there to get a 12 month position in this job. This would increase my paycheck and make it similar to what "usual" folks make. As it should.
It's a great job, I love it. Very solid in either economy, great hours, I love the work, the people, the location..... I just have to work 12 months out of the year to make ends meet, and that's the way it should be.
I hope I'm not offensive, but being in the education system I hope I can deliver a non biased statement.
If you would callQuote:
so you can complain how bad your STEADY job is and how your guaranteed money doesn't go as far as it used too, but your cries fall on deaf ears.
whining about pay, I'm not sure exactly where this should fit on the whine scaleQuote:
personally I think I get paid pretty well for my contract)
That was just a joke, but I dont recall complaining. If I did let me say "47k a year with summers off? Thats awesome!" No complaints from me! Although 47K would be quite high for me personally I'm more in low 40's.Quote:
I just got done remodeling most the AT&T stores in Utah, I did it at a cost of almost 1/2 of what the same work was going for on the East coast, did I whine that my job was tough and my pay was 1/2?....Most of these hard working individuals will make considerably less than $20,000 this year,
Actually that thought never crossed my mind :ne_nau:Quote:
before you can say, yea but people making this little amount of money don't pay taxes, let me tell you--
You do raise some good points and I am going to try to address a few of them, just dont say "love it or leave it" as that is an asinine argument, unless you are talking about Californians moving to S. Utah! :nono:
#1- My guaranteed government job...Since I have been here bad teachers have been fired, unfortunately not enough and often it ends up they just transfer schools.
#2- Merit Pay based on performance- BRING IT ON!!! Not only would I be able to prove my worth, I would probably get paid more handsomely plus I would remove this "complaint" from the right wing and anti-teacher arsenal
#3-Teachers dont feel pinch of recession- 5 paid days in Washington County have been cut, teachers have been let go, I spend even more of my own personal money on supplies as there isnt any money in the coffers.
Its funny during the recession all of my construction worker buddies, and clients of my wife (hair stylist in private sector) were flabbergasted by how little teachers make. They were actively trying to recruit me saying how much more money I would make working with them. Now that there is a recession its funny how quickly these exact same people have flipped. When they were pulling in 6 figure salary my $40, 000 was disgusting to them, now I am the rich man??
Matt
You've lost me a little from where you went from teachers salary to corporate loopholes, but I do appreciate you taking the time away from the students to respond.:haha:
Could you maybe give them a quick 10 minute pop quiz and then clarify the bottom third of your reply.:roll:
Thanks
LOL! Ya im going to delete the bottom third trying to change subjects to discuss the real villains, not teachers, but rather robber barons!
1st response before school ( I did use a couple mins of my prep)
Currently we are in a "lockdown" drill! Now all that is missing to complete the hat trick will be an earthquake drill (fire drill, lockdown, earthquake being the hat trick)
Teachers are definitely not villains, nor are they victims.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattandersao
When do I get this $47k salary you are all speaking of?
Last I checked I was pulling $31k.
Edit: too much personal info in here and I ranted, lol... Ignore this post.
Kent- Touche! Starting salaries are rough! Give it a couple years, take advantage of the summer professional development classes that are offered and you can move up the pay scale and someday perhaps you will achieve the dream of 47k!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent K25
Are these Union shops?Quote:
Originally Posted by accadacca
I'm sure I'll rapidly be corrected here if I'm wrong, but I believe all public school teachers are represented by the teachers union.Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
I would go out on a limb here and also state, private school teachers are likely not union.
I don't know anything about you Kent, is there a reason you might be entitled to $47,000?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent K25
Just askin'
Nope, just having a little fun. I'm only in my 3rd year and at the bottom of the pay scale. I can take classes to move up the pay scale etc, but am currently taking classes to finish off my endorsement and these classes don't count towards moving up. I got my degree in Mechanical Engineering so I was given a list of 11 classes and 2 tests to take to get my endorsement since my degree wasn't in education. I have a 3 year window to take these classes. I pay the tuition, I pay the test fees, I put in the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
I also coach the Freshman basketball team and that runs nearly year round to be honest with you with season, open gyms, summer camps, etc...but I'm handsomely compensated for my coaching time, $400 a year :)
I could have taken a job fresh out of college for double my teacher pay as an engineer but knew I would be bored to death working an office job. I love working with kids and we make the money work. I'm happy with my decision and none of the previous money referencing was meant as a complaint.
I chose Happiness at work > More money at work.
Does that mean I think we are paid fairly given the comparison to other states, as well as our large class sizes, NOPE, but that's the deal I can certainly get out if I want to. I can also certainly fight for more money that I think we deserve. I hate politics though, so I don't do that either. I just sit back, bust my butt, do my job and spend my check wisely.
For the record Matt teaches at my school and is an excellent teacher. Are there public school teachers who are lazy and just do the minimum...certainly. Matt isn't one of them though. He does his job well and also runs the National Junior Honor Society at our school....as far as I know there is no compensation for his time there?
Nice reply Kent:2thumbs:
I never really took issue with Matt, just the premise that Utah teachers are under paid.
Speaking of coaching, us private sector guys have done a little also. Several years ago I put together a girls softball travel team. It included girls from Beaver to Snow canyon and most points in between. I bought their uniforms, paid for their travel expenses, including motel rooms. I not only was not compensated, it literally cost me thousands of dollars. We were ranked in the top 3 teams in the state. But I would never bring this up as an issue of money, it was done for love of a sport and kids.
Now get back to class and quit visiting bogley on us taxpayers money:haha:
My kids are taking a test so I roam the aisles between the desks to keep them honest, then BS a bit on here, then back to the aisles :)
Did you have any kids on that softball team, if not, you're a saint. Still impressive if you had a daughter on the team given the expenses/time.
I never really took issue with pay just that if I dont like my pay I have to leave Utah:lol8: I do wonder what is an appropriate tax payer funded salary for someone like myself with 5 years job experience and a masters degree? Any takers and why that amount?Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7
I wouldnt go so far as to say excellent! :haha:Quote:
For the record Matt teaches at my school and is an excellent teacher
I am compensated with Pizza and Bread sticks (dont worry you tax payers aren't paying for those :roflol:) but honestly my compensation for NJHS is much better than the slap in the face compensation you get for coaching. You are making on average what .25/hour? I put in an extra couple hours a month compared to hundreds of hours for you and other coaches.Quote:
as far as I know there is no compensation for his time there?
Yes, I had a daughter on the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent K25
Life is built off a collection of memories, those were good ones.
Well:ne_nau:Quote:
Originally Posted by mattandersao
Is there something un true here?:kicknuts: (This is the first time I've got to use the kick in the nuts dudes):mrgreen:
IDK man. Your pet peeve is teachers whining, mine is "love it, or leave it!"Quote:
Is there something un true here?:kicknuts: (This is the first time I've got to use the kick in the nuts dudes):mrgreen:
Perhaps it is my background in American history. IMHO this idea of if you dont like something you only have two options 1. take it in the shorts 2. leave, is if anything un-American:flag:(disclaimer: I am by no means calling you Un-American, maybe I should have used a different word.)
Historically Americans have believed in anything but love it or leave it. Hey Bostonians, you dont like the intolerable act you could always leave Boston. You dont like slavery in Georgia, feel free to move to the North! I dont have any sources but I would guess that people have said similar things anytime injustice has occurred and I am in no way comparing historic injustice to teacher pay....
I am reminded of some of the most important words from my high school years.... "You've gotta fight, for your right, to PARTY"-Beastie Boys!
Apples to oranges, I think. Are they college educated? How much and in which field? What is their experience and what are they in charge of? I used to make $3.35 an hour at McDonalds. When I was married I was making $4.85 an hour. Is that fair to compare to someone with a college degree?Quote:
Most of these hard working individuals will make considerably less than $20,000 this year, did they whine??
I have never been a teacher and likely will never be a teacher, but I do think they are overall underpaid in many states (especially Utah), at least if they are a good teacher.
Good teachers should recieve a good salary for good work. People here are saying that many teachers are paid enough, but what other professions require as much schooling as teachers have to take and what are their comparable salaries?
There are many good teachers out there and many of them have it tough. As far as a "glorified babysitter", let's see how YOU handle 30-40 kids all day. I know I couldn't do it.
Maybe they should be actually be babysitters. When my wife babysat and ran a day care, she was getting $30-$35 per child. I'd like to hear from anyone else who takes their kids to day care. How much are you charged per child?
Since it was brought up, by babysitting standards, how much should they get paid for 30 kids?
That's what many good teachers have done. It will surely keep happening, especially if the economy improves. When the economy improves, I wonder what the teacher retention rate will be? I hate to see good teachers go elsewhere for jobs. I've seen it happen several times.Quote:
If you don't like the pay scale here, PLEASE MOVE to were it is more to your liking!!!!
Kinda off subject so I will just post the link. Have you seen the algorithm olympics? This is a sport more high schools should support IMO. Comparable salaries to NFL and NBA, but working on pure brain power instead of brawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattandersao
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/1...olympics/all/1
Your reading more into this than intended...Quote:
Originally Posted by mattandersao
My point is: If the pay rate in Utah doesn't work for someone, they need to go where the pay rate is more acceptable. Plain and simple, no love it or leave it.
If the pay rate is acceptable then that person can find a way to live that matches that payscale.
POLAND BEAT US WTF!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathcricket
Perhaps I am... I just hear it so often...I guess I am hearing it when it is unintended!Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno7