wonder why cavers are so secretive?

here is a recent post from another forum. names have been modified since I have not asked permission to post the letter here :-)




Just FYI,

(name withheld) and I went to (cave name witheld) today and had a great time. We saw most
of the cave and were impressed again at the decorations and the
marvelous pits. Screaming Skull Falls is still in good shape and most of the
skulls and bones are still there. We did not see any major damage to the
cave from previous trips. The rope up the climb and down the final pits
is there and in good shape. there is a knot about half way down tying
off a wear spot (you probably already knew that). The register however
was not in good shape. The tube itself is ok but the inside materials
were shredded. It appeared to be on purpous. After the shredding,
everything was wadded up and dumped into the bottom of the tube. The tube was
very wet inside. There was only one readable note (see included
picture. The one discouraging thing we noted was that some one has dumped a
large amount of spent carbide on the floor of the final pit. There was
also the remains of a flashlight broken all over on the floor of the
final
pit. We also noted that someone had left a spent light stick and
several fire hose rope pads in two places in the cave where they are
useless. The bolt that was placed years ago with the webbing loop part way
down the first drop is about ready to pull out. It is also rusted badly.

Just one more note. There are some really tiny articulated skelletons
in this cave. They must be baby mice.

--
Caver (name witheld)





Now on to my breif rant...

If you guys want to know about the caves and have our trust, then tearing up registers and dumping carbide in caves will not help with your cause....
niether will leaving behind busted flashlights....
neither will leaving behind light sticks....
you get my point.



End rant....

.... for now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caverspencer

here is a recent post from another forum. names have been modified since I have not asked permission to post the letter here :-)




Just FYI,

(name withheld) and I went to (cave name witheld) today and had a great time. We saw most
of the cave and were impressed again at the decorations and the
marvelous pits. Screaming Skull Falls is still in good shape and most of the
skulls and bones are still there. We did not see any major damage to the
cave from previous trips. The rope up the climb and down the final pits
is there and in good shape. there is a knot about half way down tying
off a wear spot (you probably already knew that). The register however
was not in good shape. The tube itself is ok but the inside materials
were shredded. It appeared to be on purpous. After the shredding,
everything was wadded up and dumped into the bottom of the tube. The tube was
very wet inside. There was only one readable note (see included
picture. The one discouraging thing we noted was that some one has dumped a
large amount of spent carbide on the floor of the final pit. There was
also the remains of a flashlight broken all over on the floor of the
final
pit. We also noted that someone had left a spent light stick and
several fire hose rope pads in two places in the cave where they are
useless. The bolt that was placed years ago with the webbing loop part way
down the first drop is about ready to pull out. It is also rusted badly.

Just one more note. There are some really tiny articulated skelletons
in this cave. They must be baby mice.

--
Caver (name witheld)





Now on to my breif rant...

If you guys want to know about the caves and have our trust, then tearing up registers and dumping carbide in caves will not help with your cause....
niether will leaving behind busted flashlights....
neither will leaving behind light sticks....
you get my point.

The cave mentioned has been discussed here on this forum and If I were to point fingers it would be at an individual here. Since I am not active in the grottos much anymore I wont be naming any names. but if you want to earn trust you have to learn and live the ethics involved!!!!!!!!!!

End rant....

.... for now

---

So, the name of the cave was mentioned here, making it more publicly known? I'm not sure that's the cause of vandalism.

If I go to a cool place, I might mention the name to somebody. But giving detailed directions is the next step, along with a detailed description of what to expect.

On the other hand, if somebody wants to find a new cave in the area, they can just ask the locals, and easily find the place to go. In my opinion, web forums are among the last places that most people look for secret information. The locals will sometimes spill their guts, I've experienced this many times.

Fortunately the "locals" only know so much.... The best caves have been discovered by cavers and only cavers know of the location. hence the reason they are still the "best" caves.


I never said it was because the name was mentioned here.

There have been at least a couple of rescues of very experienced climbers from the cave. Fortunately no one has been seriously hurt, the problem has lied in people not knowing how to get back out, or thinking they could do it with make shift ascending systems.

If your going to go caving save yourself the trouble and do it right, cavers don't bite, we welcome people to come survey virgin pristine cave with us. there is nothing better than the mystery of a new cave that has never had a human footprint in it before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sombeech

So, the name of the cave was mentioned here, making it more publicly known? I'm not sure that's the cause of vandalism.

---

I'd have to agree with Sombeech. Spencer, you're saying that this cave was a huge secret everywhere EXCEPT here on uutah.com? That seems like a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

dumping carbide in caves

---

What is carbide? Do you mean brass?

Yes the cave is well known, I never said it wasnt.!! IF it wasnt well known we wouldnt be here having this converstation about it!

Why is everything a debate with you guys???



Carbide - "calcium carbide Ca2C, it reacts with water to form the gas acetylene used as a lighting source by cavers and miners. "


from http://www.caves.org/member/mfraley/
"Welcome to The Carbide Caver. Through the years, the carbide caplamp has been known as a symbol of caving, and until recent years, it was the most popular form of underground lighting by far. However, carbide caplamps are becoming less and less frequently seen underground. Production has dropped enough that new lamps have almost disapeared from the caving market. This website was designed to help newer cavers get introduced to the world of carbide caving. However, this site will give little attention to belt-generator styles of acetylene "ceiling burners" since they are still widely produced and easily obtainable. The Carbide Caver will help you find a lamp, help determine a reasonable price, tell you where to find repair parts, and how to keep the lamp operational. Credits are given to all non-original graphics, and a general bibliography is provided. All original graphics are by Kara Hodge. "

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Yes the cave is well known, I never said it wasnt.!! All I said I suspect it was people form this forum that did the damage. I am surprised you are not jumping down my throat for accusing people here.

---

Actually, the purpose of my post was to point out how ridiculous it seems to me that you are accusing somebody on this board of committing the vandalism, when in fact it could have been any old random Joe Blow. Unless uutah.com is the only place where somebody can find info about this cave, your accusation seems way out of line. If the cave is well-known, why do you suspect somebody from this forum?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Why is everything a debate with you guys???

---

The only reason I jumped in and replied is because of your use of "you guys" in your first post. You sounded as though you were chastising the entire forum, when in fact you think you have a beef with just one individual.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Why is everything a debate with you guys???

---

Why are you so abrasive every time you post? I don

YOu are exactly right there are cavers that are morons too.... Oops did I say that outloud!

On one of my very first caving trips I learned just how hyporcrytical some cavers are. We came out of the cave and were changing and next thing I know one of the guys was throwing dead batteries in the bushes and cigarett butts on the ground. He heard it from all of us about why would he think that was ok. Pretty stupid, he had the knowledge to bring all the garbage out of the cave, but then to chuck it in the bushes, aahhh that really got to me.


To Udink, I dont have a problem with you. Why do you think everything I say is targeted at you??

Come on guys, cant we all just get along...


My point of the post was as an example of why cavers are so secretive. Caves are very senistive environments. If somoen is willing to do it right they will know of more caves than they can visit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

To Udink, I dont have a problem with you. Why do you think everything I say is targeted at you??

---

I never once thought you were targeting me specifically, but I just can't figure out why you think somebody from this forum was responsible for the vandalism when the cave is well-known to a lot of people outside of this forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caverspencer

My point of the post was as an example of why cavers are so secretive. Caves are very senistive environments. If somoen is willing to do it right they will know of more caves than they can visit.

---

I see your point and I agree with your sentiments, but I just can't figure out why the accusatory tone is warranted. All I wanna know is why you're blaming someone from here, when it could have been anyone. If you know who it is, just bring it up with them instead of blasting the entire forum with it.

Does anyone on this fourm even know what cave I am refferring to???

Keeping caves a secret is warranted, I would think. Although I don't understand it, every wild (ie non tour grouped) cave that has been well known to the public has been valadalized it seems. Every single one that I'm aware of. No exceptions. It's strange, but true. I never have figured out why.

Medussa used to be awesome (my dad was first to explore it), now it is completely wrecked. Unfortunately, I never got to see it before it was wrecked. :evil:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Fortunately the "locals" only know so much.... The best caves have been discovered by cavers and only cavers know of the location. hence the reason they are still the "best" caves.

---

Haha! This is hilarious. I know some "locals" in some areas that have kept caves secret from serious "cavers" to AVOID the destruction and overuse caused by recreational cavers. I think it's the other way around. The "locals" usually know much more than you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

If I were to point fingers it would be at an individual here.

---

Sorry, it was me. I also took a monster dump down there that you failed to mention. But I did pack my tp out with me. :mrgreen:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

The cave mentioned has been discussed here on this forum and If I were to point fingers it would be at an individual here.

---

Don't be a douche..... cause as it stands right now you have just pointed a finger at every member of this forum..... if ya have proof then man up and educate the poor soul involved.....

.... but don't bring that whining secret shit around here..... cause I'm not buying it.... I've played the secret games for years and I have discovered a few things to be true....

1. The only way three people can keep a secret is if two of them are dead.

2. There is no secert cave, canyon, yada, yada that you can't get if you really want it.....

3. Since the advent of the internet secrets are now measured in dog years.

4. No such thing as a gated cave if you own a come-a-long or a port-a-power :2thumbs:

now I will climb off my soap box

:five:

~pout~ I did not do it!!! :ne_nau:

Quote:

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Don't be a douche.....

---

Hey.... maybe I shouldn't have called CaveSpenser a douche. :haha:

Because the way I understand it he took his ball and bat and went home and is now trashing uutah on other forums.

:ne_nau:

Do you know what forums?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jumar

Do you know what forums?

---

I believe he is referring to UTAG

Spencer kind of went off about not being able to hold his tongue about uutah and referring to the site as "spam" and the sites operators as deceitful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DiscGolfDivers

Gullible is a word made up by liars to make trusting people look stupid.

---

Ha ha just saw your signature line. I guess that might describe me. Gullible... makes a trusting person look stupid. Gullible = Spencer

Maybe you could say im gullible and that would explain my tone on UTAG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Maybe you could say im gullible and that would explain my tone on UTAG.

---

You were actually made a moderator here. The announcement was made and everything. Your name was displayed under the caving topic.

Then you became a classified inactive member. UUtah needs moderators to be active, provide good info, and maintain some healthy traffic. It's a pretty busy job, and is more than deleting swear words and insults.

We're sorry it didn't work out. As far as giving us a membership list, I am not familiar with any of this. I think you're referring to the yahoo names that are available to anybody in the group once they sign up.

As for now, I wouldn't rule out any future possibilities, we'll just have to see how it goes.

Is a moderator even necessary for the caving threads? Not much goes on here. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jumar

Is a moderator even necessary for the caving threads? Not much goes on here. LOL

---

One of the goals for a moderator is to bring traffic, so yes. Editing and managing content is a secondary "job description".

Quote:

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One of the goals for a moderator is to bring traffic

---

Through spamming, right? :wink: :roflol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jumar

Quote:

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One of the goals for a moderator is to bring traffic

---

Through spamming, right? :wink: :roflol:

---

:lol8: Well, a couple of years ago, that's what I did, it's all I knew. Now I hate to use that method.

For Mtn Biking, I'm a member of a lot of biking forums, so my name's out there. I just try to represent Utah, and make it look like uutah.com isn't an "enemy" forum. I don't think uutah will be the ultimate mountain biking forum, it's just a great Utah forum for multiple Utah activities.

More of a network of information, rather than a competitor. This is why we welcome people plugging their own blogs and websites here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jumar

Through spamming, right? :wink: :roflol:

---

:2thumbs:

And don't forget tricking gullible people into opening their membership files. :lol8:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Actually..... whenever a section has a moderator who cares the traffic goes way up. A moderator who is hooked into the particular subject posts news stories and important info about the activity. And also points noob's in a direction to find answers to their questions.... I think the ultimate goal is to have at least one moderator for each topic.

So Jumar, ya want a job?

:nod:

Quote:

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So Jumar, ya want a job?

---

:lol8:

Hmmm....
Spencer knows a hecka lot more about Utah caving than I do, but I'd give it a go. :nod:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Maybe you could say im gullible and that would explain my tone on UTAG.

---

You were actually made a moderator here. The announcement was made and everything. Your name was displayed under the caving topic.

Then you became a classified inactive member. UUtah needs moderators to be active, provide good info, and maintain some healthy traffic.

---

I was gone for 2 weeks and that is classified as inactive? This is an outdoors forum right? Shouldnt we be allowed to go out and enjoyed the spring warmth? Just becasue I dont log in doesn't mean I dont check the site. I never saw there ever being a moderator here OR on the climbers forum until today. Where was the announcement made?

I waited paitiently for you to keep your promises, all I got was hate mail from people being spammed. After almost a month I sent the three of you an email and several others in the weeks to follow that were never answered. Not sure what I did to piss you guys off but I lost a lot of trust from a lot of people because of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caverspencer

Maybe you could say im gullible and that would explain my tone on UTAG.

---

You were actually made a moderator here. The announcement was made and everything. Your name was displayed under the caving topic.

Then you became a classified inactive member. UUtah needs moderators to be active, provide good info, and maintain some healthy traffic.

---

I was gone for 2 weeks and that is classified as inactive? This is an outdoors forum right? Shouldnt we be allowed to go out and enjoyed the spring warmth? Just becasue I dont log in doesn't mean I dont check the site. I waited paitiently for you to keep your promises, all I got was hate mail from people being spammed. After almost a month I sent the three of you an email and several others in the weeks to follow that were never answered. Not sure what I did to piss you off but I lost a lot of trust from a lot of people because of it.

---

I thought everyone kissed and made up. :ne_nau:


:frustrated: :nono: :argue: :angryfire: :roll: :bud:
:chairshot: :compthrow: :numchucks: :comppunch: pissed: :rifle: :wedgie: :wallbash: :2gun: :2guns:
:boxing: :cripple: :ban: :duel: :rope: :spankme:

:vader:


Whew! Now I am exhausted! :help:

:sleeping:

Is that a record for the most used emiticons in one post?
LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jumar

Is that a record for the most used emiticons in one post?
LOL

---

If someone wants to fight ..... I can fight as good as I can do other stuff. :lol8:

:roflol: :2thumbs:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

I waited paitiently for you to keep your promises, all I got was hate mail from people being spammed.

---

This is the 6th time I've heard about these "broken promises". You keep saying you never received an email....

I've got some bad news for you, I still have the email on record, sent April 7th, notifying you that you have been made moderator.

Your next response was in May. So 1 month, not two. I've still got the emails.

So, should we be complaining about broken promises? Nah. We've got nothing against you, we just want a moderator.

Does this mean we get to have another love fest Scott! :naughty:

Why all the bickering I think we all just need to get along

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

I waited paitiently for you to keep your promises, ..... hate mail.... spammed.... three of you.... I lost a lot of trust.....

---

WOW..... nothing like cryin' over spilt milk. I see no value in it.

Spencer, you are welcome to contribute anything you deem of value to this forum. Having your knowledge around uutah is an asset.

:cool2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caverspencer

I waited paitiently for you to keep your promises, all I got was hate mail from people being spammed.

---

This is the 6th time I've heard about these "broken promises". You keep saying you never received an email....

I've got some bad news for you, I still have the email on record, sent April 7th, notifying you that you have been made moderator.

Your next response was in May. So 1 month, not two. I've still got the emails.

So, should we be complaining about broken promises? Nah. We've got nothing against you, we just want a moderator.

---

You sent me an saying it had been done. From you not the site. I have the email as well.

Expecting you just had to click on something at UUtah that hadnt been done yet I went on with my life. Then after waiting I sent you the email asking why it hadnt been done. Did you ever respond to that?

That's not the problem though. The problem was my mistake of opening up and trusting a stranger. It ended in a lot of hate mail sent to me by people who had trusted me that were now getting spam telling them to join here. You had what you needed from me, my membership list which I keep closed for that very reason. I dont think you ever wanted me as a moderator, you just wanted my memberhsip list so you could email them. Many of them are probably very happy here now, and good for them. But many of them also sent me hate mail. Unlike most Yahoo Groups I change my setting to NOT show the membership list and people expected me to keep it that way and that their email addresses were safe. My mistake for opening it up.

You want to keep dragging this petty little debate on then why did you never responded to my May 1 email explaining the situation? Or any email I sent after that? You had my membership lists you didnt need or want my help anymore...

We had your membership lists because you do not lock and hide your membership on Yahoo Groups. We had your memberships list and were spamming your membership long before you were offered the Mod. Your membership list and your mod status were two separate and unrelated issues.

Your groups were spammed because at the time we were hitting all Yahoo outdoor groups.

You never opened any of your Yahoo Groups up to us as a Mod.

You were originally offered the uutah Mod because it was deemed you would be an asset to uutah.

The uutah Mod offer was with drawn when you failed to show up and failed to become an asset.

It is what it is.... as always there are two sides to every story. Thanks for repeating yours a half dozen times.

Now stop whining, you are beginning to sound a lot like a jilted lover. Yup, we slept with ya and than didn't call you in the morning. Get over it.

http://uutah.com/forum/files/china.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Now stop whining, you are beginning to sound a lot like a jilted lover. Yup, we slept with ya and than didn't call you in the morning. Get over it.

---

At least a reacharound?

:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

I just checked the setting and the memberships lists are NOT visible to members. I wont argue wither or not you were able to spam other groups that way or not. I have no doubt you did. I also have no doubt the only reason you offered me to be a part of UUtah was to get access to my group. The only way you got access to the membership lists was when I made you a moderator with the agreement we were going to migrate over to UUtah. Two of you were moderators there from April 17th until May 3rd when I demoted you after you failed to keep your promises or reply to my emails. That is the only time you had access to the membership list there, and the moderator activity is there to prove it.
But like you said, during that time you "slept with me and than didn't call in the morning" You got what you needed and didn't need me anymore.

:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

Regardless, you now finally acknowledged my original complaint about UUtah. That was how you went about building you membership by spamming all the other groups you could find and destroying them. That all my original comment was on UTAG was, go back and read it. Here is what it said:

" I have been biting my tongue too long on this one. Time to give my 2 cents

I'm with Mockba about the Spam thing. I have seen the UUtah creaters try and take over and eliminate other forums all in the name of increasing their own website hits to sell advertising.

I think its a great site, but the way they are going about building their membership is not good and I will not support it. "

Then it was all blown out or proportion. People got offened because I stated the truth and that I knew how Mockba felt about UUtah methods to build the site. :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

So you have admitted that you built your site by spamming other groups. That is all I was trying to say in the start..

Enough said..... :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

http://uutah.com/forum/files/spamcanyon.jpg

http://uutah.com/forum/files/9eaf.jpg

http://uutah.com/forum/files/spam_shane.jpg