Is Orderville or the Subway doable at the end of November?

We are making our annual trip to Zion on Thanksgiving weekend and every year we just do dry hikes. I've done the Subway top down and Mystery in the heat of the summer and know how cold the water can get then but I'm wondering if it's possible to do either the Subway or Orderville this time of year without being miserable?

We could rent gear from ZAC which I'm comfortable with but I have some group members that are worried it would still be too cold. Obviously trail access would be an issue if there is snow but if it's a sunny day and we have the right gear I think it may be possible (at least I'm trying to convince myself and friends of this).

I have been shut out of doing Orderville twice in the summer due to flash flood potential and I'd really like to attempt it again, just want some advice from people who have experience hiking these canyons at this time of year.

Thanks

I've done Kolob in late November with 6" of snow on the ground and was nice and comfy in my drysuit. So my answer is.... it depends on what your expectations are and how well you are prepare.

Some folks just are not wired to enjoy the great outdoors outside of tourist season, I guess that's why they call it tourist season. :lol8:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I've done Kolob in late November with 6" of snow on the ground and was nice and comfy in my drysuit. So my answer is.... it depends on what your expectations are and how well you are prepare.

Some folks just are not wired to enjoy the great outdoors outside of tourist season, I guess that's why they call it tourist season. :lol8:

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What he said.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...december-2013/

did Orderville a couple of weeks ago, the "swim" at the usual jump, turned out to be only 1 foot deep, due to being filled in with sand and gravel, much like the Subway is currently. So while there was no swimming, and nothing over my waist, I would not say that made it a cake walk- your main problem, on top of being cold and wet, is that Orderville can be a really long day- and @ Thanksgiving your daylight is quite limited- it will be very easy to run out of daylight before you run out of canyon. Pay for a shuttle, or have someone in your extended group shuttle you up there EARLY, keeping in mind there is liable to be frost on the mountain overnight. One other way to facilitate your time management is to set up your shuttle with 4WD ability, so they can drive you down the road from the corral to the turn around, cutting an hour and a couple of ugly dry miles from your hike. Stop at the confluence to survey your crews condition, replace wet tops with dry ones, fleece and a windbreaker, and fuel up with a power snack and liquids for the final push down the Narrows, where it will be dusk if not dark, and breezy.
A hiking stick recommended, headlamps required.

Absolutely you can canyoneer in Zion at that time of year. I've even done Pine Creek and Keyhole at the end of November, although I'm not sure I really recommend it. Much more fun earlier in the year.

You just need to dress for the weather. Where I wouldn't use a wet suit in either of those canyons in summer, you'll need it in November. A 3/2 with 5 mm booties might be enough though. Get an early start. They're both longish canyons at a time of year with limited daylight. I've also done Mystery that time of year. It's a pretty good cold weather canyon too, although it gets very interesting once it's cold enough for ice and snow. Behunin and Spry are great choices for that time of year too. I'd probably avoid the wetter canyons though- Heaps, Imlay, Kolob, Pine Creek, Keyhole etc.

Did Das Boot/Subway last November during a cold spell... in the 20's when we parked at the trailhead at sunrise. We encountered patches of ice and snow on the hike in, and it goes without saying the water in Das Boot was COLD (but no ice). With drysuits over layers of fleece we were fine. Those of us who had neoprene gloves were even more comfy. Had a great day.

With a good weather forecast and cold water prep you should be fine.

Thanks all for the replies, Shuttles and gear are probably the must have items for these routes so I'll talk to my crew and see how amicable they are to it. May just have to bring them back in the summer if I can't twist their arms this November.