Single strand stone knot biner block?

***RETRACTION:***

AFTER USING THIS KNOT MANY TIMES (AND NEVER HAVING ANY SLIP), I HAVE REALIZED THAT IF THE WRONG SIDE IS LOADED AND THE FREE SIDE IS UNSECURED AND/OR NOT UNDER TENSION, THE KNOT CAN SLIP OFF THE BINER AND CONVERT INTO AN OVERHAND. NEVER HAD IT HAPPEN IN FIELD, BUT I'VE BEEN ABLE TO INDUCE IT WITH 6MM CORD EXPERIMENTALLY. THE KNOT SEEMS SAFE ONLY IN ONE DIRECTION.

NOT WORTH THE RISK.

DON'T USE IT.



Been doing single strand raps with either backed up figure 8 knot blocks or Fiddlestick.

Was sitting here practicing clove hitch biner blocks and reading threads about those vs. locked cloves and constrictor knots.

Then wondered why not just block single strand with an overhand stone around the biner spine, like this?

It doesn't seem to slip, and so far I can't take the knot apart without removing the biner, AS LONG as the top and bottom of the rope are on the same side of the biner. If the top/anchor side is passed through the biner gate, the knot can (if totally unloaded and with effort) be worked around the biner and released.

This could of course be further backed up for all but last person by clipping to anchor.

Again, just me tying stuff to the coffee table. Any reason to not try loading one? It seems like a fast and safe way to go.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/webkit-f...c151/imagejpeg

Interesting... Just going off looks, it looks like it might slip some.

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Originally Posted by Triggerfish

Been doing single strand raps with either backed up figure 8 knot blocks or Fiddlestick.

Was sitting here practicing clove hitch biner blocks and reading threads about those vs. locked cloves and constrictor knots.

Then wondered why not just block single strand with an overhand stone around the biner spine, like this?

It doesn't seem to slip, and so far I can't take the knot apart without removing the biner, AS LONG as the top and bottom of the rope are on the same side of the biner. If the top/anchor side is passed through the biner gate, the knot can (if totally unloaded and with effort) be worked around the biner and released.

This could of course be further backed up for all but last person by clipping to anchor.

Again, just me tying stuff to the coffee table. Any reason to not try loading one? It seems like a fast and safe way to go.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/webkit-f...c151/imagejpeg

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Go sling a tree branch and bounce around on it. Seems fine to me. I kinda like it. Personally, I use a constrictor but this certainly looks reasonable.

My only observation is that slippage may depend on which strand is weighted. Clipped strand vs knot strand. If it slips one way, I'd not put in the tool box. Otherwise, why not?

I love the thinking process and trying to look at things differently, but is the Clove Hitch that broken that we need to have another knot to use in it's place? Hmmm....

Anyway, great concept. I just hung a rope and loaded it with my body weight in a foot loop to give it a try. Seems to do ok, I wonder what it'd be like loading over and over and over with a group. A stone knot is designed to be free floating and not jammed up against and object in my mind. It was a little awkward to tie it (the way I usually tie Stone's) but once I got the bulk portion of the knot away from the rapide, it seemed to hold. I'll try this out on a rock sometime and see how it holds up.

Attachment 77493

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Originally Posted by Canyonbug

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A stone knot is designed to be free floating and not jammed up against and object in my mind.

Attachment 77493

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The clove was not conceived for the purpose for which canyoneers use it, I'm sure.

This knot seems much less likely to work its way around than a clove. I hung it up too and bounced the crap out of it. It seems to only become more secure.

I don't trust cloves. Especially with firm rope. When climbing I use pile hitches instead, faster and its twist neutral. When canyoning, I use constrictors, more secure and again, twist neutral.

Thanks for the responses and the field testing. My experience with this knot held by biners for others and a Fiddlestick for me has been zero or near-zero slip. That's using two rope strands, but these experiments look promising.

What got me started was all the debate about the clove hitch. It's easy. It's been around forever, and I imagine that, done right, its fail rate is about zero. I think the fact that I've seen them roll and slip on moving objects still just bugs me at some sub-scientific level though.

Then, on to the alternatives. Yeah, the constrictor probably isn't any harder to tie. But, the overhand stone is super easy. And, I don't know if anything can beat the stone in the ease-of-untying department. Pull the biner, bam!

Hopefully, I'll field test this soon and be back with results.

Thanks all of you (this forum is awesome)!

What's a locked clove? Is that the same as a triple clove--see following thread -- http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...uestion.18493/

I assume it is.

I actually like the constrictor knot. Any problems anyone has noticed with the constrictor? When properly tied, has it ever slipped?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by townsend

What's a locked clove? Is that the same as a triple clove--see following thread -- http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...uestion.18493/

I assume it is.

I actually like the constrictor knot. Any problems anyone has noticed with the constrictor? When properly tied, has it ever slipped?

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In my experience, a locked clove is the same thing as a constrictor.

I also started using the constrictor hitch. After some practice with it, I think it is easier for me than a clove hitch. It works well with the pear shaped carabiners for untying it afterwards if you rotate the bulk of the knot to the inside of the carabiner.

Off topic, but is there any difference tying the two overhand loops to the rapide, rather than water knotting the webbing into one piece?? :dumb question alert:

Blocked with this arrangement on my last 3 raps, and it worked great. I tie the knot as demonstrated on the CUSA Fiddlestick instructions: (overhand, flip up, pull back strand forward, and clip to that.) I then pass the strand below the knot through the gate to put it in impossible-to-self-release mode. So far at least, I cannot make it budge even a little once tightened. When I'm done, it releases easily.