Using a caving harness for canyoneering

Good evening everybody,

My current harnass is about to be replaced. Not a big deal, buy a new one, and I will. But recently I was introduced into caving and I was suprised by the simplicity but great functionality of the caving harnass. Something like this
Attachment 76719


The harnass is closed with a big D-carabiner, one like this
Attachment 76720

So now I'm wondering about how useable is a harnass like this for canyoneering?

I already found that caving harnasses are a no-go for climbing, because of a lower attachment point to the rope. That is said to make them unsafer in case you fall down (and slam upside down). But what about for canyoneering. Most of the time you'll be on tension with the rope.

Furthermore I'm wondering about the stability of a pirana if connected to this D-carabiner. Will the pirana-biner be unstable and slide sideways on the big D-carabiner? How does that influence rapelling? During that first caving trip :stud:(which I recently had and really enjoyed) I used a rack, which was no problem at all concerning stability.

Some other pro's and cons on how useable is this harnass for canyoneering.

PRO's

• very small
• light weight
• simple to put on

CONs

• maybe slightly less comfortable for very long rappels or many rappels in a row (don't know yet, not enough experience with it yet)
• only 2 small side connectors for biners, slings, etc

Does anybody have experience with this? Any other points of view on what I came up with?

Thanks for any thoughts and feedback from your side!
grtz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maarten.1975

Good evening everybody,

My current harnass is about to be replaced. Not a big deal, buy a new one, and I will. But recently I was introduced into caving and I was suprised by the simplicity but great functionality of the caving harnass. Something like this
Attachment 76719


The harnass is closed with a big D-carabiner, one like this
Attachment 76720

So now I'm wondering about how useable is a harnass like this for canyoneering?

I already found that caving harnasses are a no-go for climbing, because of a lower attachment point to the rope. That is said to make them unsafer in case you fall down (and slam upside down). But what about for canyoneering. Most of the time you'll be on tension with the rope.

Furthermore I'm wondering about the stability of a pirana if connected to this D-carabiner. Will the pirana-biner be unstable and slide sideways on the big D-carabiner? How does that influence rapelling? During that first caving trip :stud:(which I recently had and really enjoyed) I used a rack, which was no problem at all concerning stability.

Some other pro's and cons on how useable is this harnass for canyoneering.

PRO's

• very small
• light weight
• simple to put on

CONs

• maybe slightly less comfortable for very long rappels or many rappels in a row (don't know yet, not enough experience with it yet)
• only 2 small side connectors for biners, slings, etc

Does anybody have experience with this? Any other points of view on what I came up with?

Thanks for any thoughts and feedback from your side!
grtz

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You only show part of the harness. The other part is the chest harness that compensates for the low tie-in point of a caving harness. without this part, the harness is DANGEROUS to use.

I am sure this kind of harness works great for caving.

I'm also pretty sure this works poorly for canyoning. Because of the low tie in point.

T

Once hanging though, how much lower is the TIP? The biggest deterrent to me for using a harness like that is comfort. Although I like the simplicity.

Hi Maarten (and Tom)

This harness (Petzl Fractio) is designed for use without a chest harness. For caving, that is, with the right body type, good technique, etc. Top heavy individuals can find the hanging position to be too unstable without a chest harness.

I haven't found them to be a good choice for general canyoneering:

- Not super comfy
- Low attachment point limits scope of application due to relatively unstable hanging position
- Insufficient racking capability
- Slow/awkward to adjust

However if you need to Frog up a rope, you can't beat it. I have used mine mainly for "yo-yo-ing" canyons, or for exploration with a lot of ascending.

So, not recommended for general canyoneering use, esp. not in Class C (better to wear something less tippy).

Hi Maarten
X2 to what Tom says.
The low tie in point, combined with wearing a pack could be VERY BAD.
As in upside down bad.
The other drag about this design is that it looks hard (impossible?) to adjust the fit while you are wearing it...

I am interested to know if anyone (that has actually used a caving harness) has had trouble with instability or flipping backwards while rappelling.

I have heard this (what I believe to be a myth) about caving harnesses ever since I got involved with canyoneering and started interacting with canyoneers. Also, I have used a caving harness in caves for 14 years, and in canyons for the last 10 years. I have literally rappelled thousands of feet wearing caving harnesses, and I am a "top-heavy" person. I have never had problems, nor seen, nor heard of anyone having problems because of the supposed "too low" attachment point.

I am calling B.S. on this as a canyoneer myth unless someone (once again someone that has actually used the caving harness or seen it used) can relate an instance of someone not being able to rappel upright in a caving harness because of the low attachment point.

Where does this idea come from? I'm wondering if it is simply because you use a climbing harness with a higher attachment, and therefore lower attachments must be bad?

The assertion that caving harnesses aren't good for rappelling is baffling to cavers because that's what we use them for, and they work great. Yes, we also ascend with the same harness, but it is a 50/50 game, unless we are fortunate enough to do a cave with a pull-down traverse as in canyoneering.

The chest harness is not a factor. The chest harness that functions with the pictured seat harness is not a life-safety or positioning piece. It does not interface with the rope at all during descent. It merely serves on ascent to pull the croll (chest ascender) up the rope with each stroke. It can be safely constructed from webbing, a bungee cord, a shoestring, or whatever. The Petzl Fractio harness is certainly not "DANGEROUS" to use without a chest harness, as Tom asserts. Tom, I want to know where these kinds of ideas come from.

One thing to realize for this discussion is that cavers generally tether their packs when the weight gets above about 25-30 pounds. When packs are light, they might wear them on rappel, but I have never seen an issue with this even with our low attachment points. The only time I have ever flipped backwards on rappel was while wearing a 50+ pound pack. I should have tethered it, but forgot to on a small drop. This would have flipped even a person wearing a climbing harness.

In the absence of testing, or even any compelling anecdotes, the whole "cave harnesses bad for rappelling" idea sounds to me like an old wives' tale. It flies in the face of years of experience, and has no testing or stories to back it up. If you are saying that the harness is not safe for obese people, or for people that refuse to tether 50 pound packs, then that is a different discussion and does not mean that the harness is unsafe or unsuitable for Maarten or other non-obese 50-pound pack tetherers.

Any rebuttals from the old wives? :)

Well, a strong reply, Canyon Caver!:haha:
Not being a caver, I have never figured out WHY some caving harnesses are built with such a low center of gravity...
Perhaps there is some advantage/necessity for setting up ascending systems?
But it seems that a "low center of gravity" is a problem for many climbing harness designs also (and may not become apparent until an overhang sneaks up on you when you've got the big pack on).
On this particular design of caving harness the front rise (height difference from top of leg to waist) does not seem horribly short- maybe no worse than a BOD.
And I kinda like the double waistband.
But it seems that in canyoneering one of the goals of a waist harness is to keep you as upright as possible with as much weight on your back as possible.
Or not? Am I missing something?

Petzl (and other Euro) caving harnesses are designed with an extra-low attachment point to maximize stroke length in a "Frog" rope ascent system.

This low attachment point can create a stability problem with some users. This problem can be exacerbated by free-hang, top-heaviness (esp. heavy load on back but also body type), and rappelling in heavy water flow. Lead climbing is definitely a no-no, and even top roping can be problematic.

Not all users will experience a problem as there are many variables.

I can recommend with relatively high confidence to Mr. or Mrs. Generic Canyoneer a sturdy two-piece (waist + leg loops) rock climbing design and not worry too much about those variables. I would not do that with a caving harness.

I own the petzl caving harness and have used it off and on for about 3 years now. It has been my main canyon harness and I have probably done more than 50 canyons with it and it is still going strong.

Pros;
- Very light weight
- small compact design - takes less room in the pack than other harnesses
- Very easy to put on.
- Very durable. The leg loops( which take a lot of abuse on my legs) are covered with an abrasive proof vinyl like material.
I paid 80 bucks for two of them. The second one sits new in its package.. I think the price as gone up since.

Cons;
- When its gets wet it tends to loosen just a tad requiring a mid canyon adjustment. Most times this is not an issue but when casually walking down or up a canyon on a Ho-Hum the leg loops can slip down a bit.
- With a wet suit on, if the harness isn't really cinched up it can slip down a tad.
- there are only two gears loops but I don't like carrying a lot of equipment on my harness.
- lack of padding. On big, long rappels this is a discomfort issue
- for those with body types that tend toward the horizontal on free hang rappels, this harness may exacerbate that affect. Maybe something to do with the tie In point.


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Thanks for the info, Hank:mrgreen:
One of the big variables Hank mentions: your back length relative to your height.
If you are "short waisted" then many/most harness brands may feel just fine- because you have a 'balance point' that sits a little higher than average, enough to overcome a low-rise harness.
I am 5'8" (and shrinking!) and am long-waisted (about 19" along the spine from nape to hip line) so my 'tipping point' is a bit low.
For me a 'high-rise harness' really helps to keep upright on those gnarly /log jam/ overhang/ awkward starts, where hanging a pack is not practical.
I like the 'old wives' bit though...

Hey French_de!
An experiment: first we need your....
HEIGHT____________
and
BACK LENGTH___________
To determine your back length imagine standing in skanky pot- hole water just deep enough for the water to cover your hips and just stop at the tippy top of your hip bones.
Now get a tape measure (and maybe some help) and measure from the prominent bone at the base of your neck straight down your spine to the imaginary skanky water line....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by french_de

I own the petzl caving harness and have used it off and on for about 3 years now. It has been my main canyon harness and I have probably done more than 50 canyons with it and it is still going strong.

Pros;
- Very light weight
- small compact design - takes less room in the pack than other harnesses
- Very easy to put on.
- Very durable. The leg loops( which take a lot of abuse on my legs) are covered with an abrasive proof vinyl like material.
I paid 80 bucks for two of them. The second one sits new in its package.. I think the price as gone up since.

Cons;
- When its gets wet it tends to loosen just a tad requiring a mid canyon adjustment. Most times this is not an issue but when casually walking down or up a canyon on a Ho-Hum the leg loops can slip down a bit.
- With a wet suit on, if the harness isn't really cinched up it can slip down a tad.
- there are only two gears loops but I don't like carrying a lot of equipment on my harness.
- lack of padding. On big, long rappels this is a discomfort issue
- for those with body types that tend toward the horizontal on free hang rappels, this harness may exacerbate that affect. Maybe something to do with the tie In point.


-

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Adding on...

- Petzl Fractio = 485 g size 1; 530 g size 2 (without the required fastening connector). BD Alpine Bod = 395 g; Singing Rock Guru size M = 416 g...
- Adjusting the harness is a PITA if you need to change layers (change from dry clothes to wetsuit, for example). Or if you just want to loosen the leg loops a bit for walking, etc.
- A special connector (not included with harness) is needed to close the harness. This adds to harness weight, cost, and (depending on connector choice) the PITA of don/doff/adjust. Cheapest decent solution is a steel No. 10 delta maillon at 153 g and maybe $10; at the other end of the spectrum is the (greatly preferred for ease of use) Petzl OMNI at 86 g and about $35 plus shipping. Try finding one of those, or a No. 10 delta at your local shop.
- Does not accept available butt protectors AFAIK
- Current retail on the Fractio is in the $100 range (again, plus shipping unless you live in TAG where you might find it in a local shop).

Other pros are the very low profile when worn, and low-absorbency materials.

If it sounds like I'm trying to discourage the casual canyoneer from investing in one of these, it's because I am. That said, I love my caving harness and use it on occasion as mentioned above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harness man

One of the big variables Hank mentions: your back length relative to your height.

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Si, Senor!

Much more descriptive than simply "top-heavy."

Thanks!
But you and Tom are the old masters of exposition..:mrgreen:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harness man

Hey French_de!
An experiment: first we need your....
HEIGHT____________
and
BACK LENGTH___________
To determine your back length imagine standing in skanky pot- hole water just deep enough for the water to cover your hips and just stop at the tippy top of your hip bones.
Now get a tape measure (and maybe some help) and measure from the prominent bone at the base of your neck straight down your spine to the imaginary skanky water line....

---

Ok here are my stats. I had to go stand in my backyard pot hole

I am 6' 5" and back length is about 25"

The really good thing this harness has going for it is it's durability.

Maybe the next big product advance in this sport would be a better canyoneering harness One that is durable, is easy to put on, adjustable tie in point, comfortable, reasonably priced, light weight ..etc....

[QUOTE=french_de;563358Maybe the next big product advance in this sport would be a better canyoneering harness One that is durable, is easy to put on, adjustable tie in point, comfortable, reasonably priced, light weight ..etc....[/QUOTE]

Yes, purpose built for "canyoneering" (vs. canyoning) would be nice, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by french_de

Ok here are my stats. I had to go stand in my backyard pot hole

I am 6' 5" and back length is about 25"

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Would be great to get this info from Canyoncaver, too, who self-describes as "top heavy"

Hi French_de
Well, at 6'5" and a 25" back length (thanks for measuring:mrgreen:!) you are actually pretty proportional according to our (limited) database.
So you do not seem overly bottom heavy according to height/back length.
Have you ever had a hard time staying upright rapping with a pack on?
Best
Todd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harness man

Hi French_de
Well, at 6'5" and a 25" back length (thanks for measuring:mrgreen:!) you are actually pretty proportional according to our (limited) database.
So you do not seem overly bottom heavy according to height/back length.
Have you ever had a hard time staying upright rapping with a pack on?
Best
Todd

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I'm so glad I'm proportional:cool2: I have other problems but at least I have that:haha:

I do remember a couple of times that I moved to more of a sitting position with a heavy pack while in free hang mode when using this harness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hank moon

Would be great to get this info from Canyoncaver, too, who self-describes as "top heavy"

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If I am measuring correctly my back is 23" and my height is 5'11''. I have a weight of 205 lbs. and an inseam of 30". I enjoy candlelight dinners and walks on the beach.