Setting up a pull for the really big raps

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08-01-2012, 01:41 PM
Mountaineer

Setting up a pull for the really big raps

What are the best practices for retrieving your rope on the > 200' raps? For example, Englestead, if you do it as one long 300' rappel. It seems like rigging this with a 200' + 100' rope to do a pull would work. Perhaps an accessory cord with the stone/fiddlestick method is best (so the rope just drops rather than pulling it all the way through).

I've had no problems with 200' or less raps using either an omni-sling, or just pulling the rope all the way through (depending on the drop). But wondering if there are some special considerations or preferences when you have even more rope. Goals would be safety, protecting the environment, and getting your rope back.:rope:
08-01-2012, 02:21 PM
canyoncaver

I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but in the case of Englestead I find it best to leave a rope hanging with a note that says something to the effect of "please don't steal my rope" and then come back for it later. This allows you to do the rest of the canyon with much less rope, and it is a short hike down to get your rope later, considering you will probably have to go back there for the car shuttle later anyway. I like this method for canyons where the first rap is big, the rest of the raps are smaller, and there is a short hike to the first rap. Alcatraz would be another example.
08-01-2012, 02:42 PM
Mountaineer

Quote:

Originally Posted by canyoncaver

I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but in the case of Englestead I find it best to leave a rope hanging with a note that says something to the effect of "please don't steal my rope" and then come back for it later.

Thanks, and actually a great idea. I have done this before (Poison Springs). I've already arranged to be dropped off, but I suppose I could drive back and grab it...

How about one of us just leaves a new rope each year for everyone to use? :nod:
08-01-2012, 03:34 PM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Thanks, and actually a great idea. I have done this before (Poison Springs). I've already arranged to be dropped off, but I suppose I could drive back and grab it...

How about one of us just leaves a new rope each year for everyone to use? :nod:

Perhaps your dropoff person would like to hike down to the top of the big drop and then carry the ropes out.

I would not use an omnisling for a long rappel. Maybe its just me but, when new the omnisling was quite reliable (as in, releases easily). As mine softened up, it got less reliable (more sticky).

Same goes for a fiddlestick. I'd be real careful that the weight of the pull side does not pre-pull the stick. This would be a case where an ultralight pull cord would be useful.

There are many places to rappel at the top of Engelstead, but really only once place has a good, clean pull. There is a tree on canyon left about 50 feet downcanyon that leans over the edge. Set the sling HIGH in the tree, and you get an easy start and an easy pull. Nearby is another tree often with slings around it, that goes down a corner. This is a poor place for the pull, as the rope tends to work its way into the crack on the corner.

In general, the rule is: do a really good job of setting up your rappel for a good pull. Use a large rapid link. Use as much real rope on the pull side (vs. pull cord) as possible. At times I have left a petzl oscillante pulley on these long rappels, and that sure does make it easier, but is kind of expensive.

Tom
08-01-2012, 04:04 PM
Iceaxe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I've had no problems with 200' or less raps using either an omni-sling, or just pulling the rope all the way through (depending on the drop). But wondering if there are some special considerations or preferences when you have even more rope.

One big concern when rappels start to approach 300' feet is you have a lot of rope to pull through and it's really heavy (depending on your rope). You want to make sure you have a nice smooth pull through a nice big rappel anchor.

We once used a 10mm rope on the final of Heaps and the rapid at the top was probably a little too small for the rope and the pull was a bitch.

Also on just about any rappel if you can back away from the rappel and gets some angle the pull will be much easier, and usually helps eliminate rope grooves.

As for Englestead.... I just do the mid-station transfer. It's not difficult at all if you poccess mediocre or better canyoneering skills. And for a group of 5 or 6 I think it's faster as you can work two ropes and have two canyoneers working their way down the wall at the same time. Once the first guy down makes the transfer the next guy in line can start down the first rope.... easy...peasy...

:cool2:
08-01-2012, 05:46 PM
jman

When we rappelled off Malans waterfall - 300+ft, we used a handled ascender to assist in the pulling. We were pulling about 350ft 9mm rope backup through the rapide, dragging through a little moss and rock. Two people with both hands was barely enough, but having the handled ascender to pull reduced the work to one person with relative ease.
08-02-2012, 09:23 PM
pinjonjuniper

Tom,
Can you define 'ultralight pull cord' in a huge rappel context?
Thanks
08-02-2012, 10:24 PM
ratagonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinjonjuniper

Tom,
Can you define 'ultralight pull cord' in a huge rappel context?
Thanks

Brendan, who is a sailor, has this amsteel cord that is 100% spectra. Not sure what size he uses, but it is very lightweight.

If you have a clear shot, with no edges, you're golden. However, if you are pulling it across an edge, you have the possibility of cutting it.

The Spectra is also non-stretch. You pull it by wrapping it around something. A log, a pack, something. Pulling on it with your hands or an ascender is unlikely to be manageable.

http://rwrope.com/marine-cordage/com...n-amsteel.html

Tom
08-03-2012, 07:20 AM
hank moon

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratagonia

Brendan, who is a sailor, has this amsteel cord that is 100% spectra. Not sure what size he uses, but it is very lightweight.
http://rwrope.com/marine-cordage/com...n-amsteel.html

I scored a bunch of that stuff from Samson's dumpster a few years back. Pretty stiff. Ultimate clothesline!
08-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Mountaineer

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratagonia

The Spectra is also non-stretch. You pull it by wrapping it around something. A log, a pack, something. Pulling on it with your hands or an ascender is unlikely to be manageable.
Tom

New England 5mm Tech cord is also nice. Strong, and light.
08-03-2012, 02:36 PM
Scott Card

Quote:

Originally Posted by hank moon

I scored a bunch of that stuff from Samson's dumpster a few years back.

Dang, Hank. Call a brother when you dumpster dive and I'll belay you safely in. :lol8:
08-03-2012, 02:49 PM
Bootboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

New England 5mm Tech cord is also nice. Strong, and light.

...and expensive. Not too mention nigh into impossible to find in lengths longer than the 25m spools, or whatever the spool length is.

I'm kind of a urethane geek. I think a piece of 3/16 Amsteel hand coated in urethane is about as good as it gets.
08-05-2012, 03:27 AM
Renatomic808

Personally, I've sent people down normally, with the normal anchor position. Then as the last one down, I extend the rappel ring/anchor til its over the edge with webbing, or rope. Its an awkward start, especially on such a large drop, but makes the pull super clean.