How do you rig for a big free hang?

For a couple of years, big free hangs made me nervous because I just couldn't seem to get comfortable with my friction. I'm 200 lbs and typically used 8.3 to 9.2 mm rope and a pirana. No horns, too little friction. One horn, awkward (I don't like the feeling of pulling up on the brake). Two horns, too much. Leg biner, again the pulling up issue. I finally tried the Sterling ATS in high friction mode (the ends curved away from you) and it was a big improvement, but still not quite enough with a heavy pack on a long rap. A friend showed me how to use the ATS in stitch plate mode using two biners and voila...it is magic. I am now pretty sure that I am ready to be the first one down the last rap in Heaps. Without pulling on the "throttle" I can barely move. Engage throttle and I have complete control of my speed.

I would love to hear how other big guys like me get their friction dialed in for just such a situation. Took me quite a while to find this solution. Also, is there any down side to this method? I can't find one and wonder why this isn't more common. Maybe because it requires both hands? Where might this be a problem?

i am 6'3 and around 215lbs and i don't have any issues with the pirana. But than again the longest rap i have done with it was 200ft on 9mm single strand. i just us one horn and then when i start getting farther down on the rap i just loop over one of the other horns on the right hand side of the pirana. Hasen't failed me so far. that is with about 30lbs pack on my back not on a sling.

Pirana works well for me unless it is 200 feet or so. Otherwise I prefer the ATC with a Z rig to avoid spinning on the way down and twisting the rope.

Two ATC's in series for me. Smooth.

100 kilos.

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Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Pirana works well for me unless it is 200 feet or so. Otherwise I prefer the ATC with a Z rig to avoid spinning on the way down and twisting the rope.

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I like that combo but again the pulling upward with the brake is not my favorite. Once the full "Z" is engaged it is fine, but that is too much friction to start a long free hang when I tried it. There is that intermediate time when I am forced to use just the lower biner and I have to pull upwards to brake.

Guru, do you start with the lower left horn then wrap over the top right horn to add? That might work. I can't seem to remember why I didn't like it. Maybe too much for me at the start. Seems I started with no horns and added lower right which caused the upward braking issue I dislike.

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Originally Posted by EvergreenDean

I like that combo but again the pulling upward with the brake is not my favorite. Once the full "Z" is engaged it is fine, but that is too much friction to start a long free hang when I tried it. There is that intermediate time when I am forced to use just the lower biner and I have to pull upwards to brake.

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ATC, extended with a Z-rig. It's comfy and having your rappel device up a little higher makes things easier to manipulate once it is time to adjust your friction.

You could probably just bypass the awkward upward brake stage and go straight to the full Z-rig. You would just have to force the rope through the top of the Z for a bit.

Don't do the Piranha man, someone said on another thread that they nearly spun themselves sick coming out of Heaps with a Piranha due to rope twistage. Enjoy that moment, go with the ATC. :mrgreen:

HB Mini Rack with 4 bars and upper and lower hyper bars. Start with 3 bars, then add a bar, then wrap upper hyper "horn" bar! Unless of course I'm taking another person down with me, then start out with "5" bars. No problem on single 8mm cord.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Two ATC's in series for me. Smooth.

100 kilos.

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Brian:

Could you post a picture of this? I use an ATC but have a Black Diamond Alpine Bod harness which does not allow a z rig due to the quick connect on the leg loop.

Thanks

There are different flavors of ATCs, and different ways to rig it. It would be a help if folks would be specific.

Tom

I'm fan of the Pirana (and/or ATS). But, at 190 lbs, the "2" setting is a little light for long rappels on a Canyon Fire (8.3), and even on a Canyonero (9.2).

So I go to a carabiner on my LEFT leg loop. The rope goes from my slightly extended Pirana to my left leg loop, then across my lap. NO holding UP required. I can rotate my hips to adjust the friction. Roll toward the rope and the rope is barely deflected by the leg loop carabiner (almost no additional friction). Hang square, and the rope takes a 90 degree through the biner, then across my lap and down.

For the long rap, I add a carabiner to the big eye of the Pirana and clip the rope in there, as a z-rig, when I am say 100 feet off the ground. It helps to use a narrow carabiner in the Pirana - a fat biner like an Attache tends to press against the rope and create way too much friction.

Both these "additions" can be difficult to "grab" in process. Good to practice in advance. I often start a long rappel with the leg loop biner in place and the rope through it. If it is way too much, I can always take it out, once over the edge.

I think the main thing to consider is that the weight of the rope is very significant once raps get past 200 feet; and it is good to have a way to increase the friction while on rappel.

Lots of different ways to skin this cat. Or as BDC would say, "So many cats, so few recipes..."

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by Bluff-Canyoneer

Could you post a picture of this? I use an ATC but have a Black Diamond Alpine Bod harness which does not allow a z rig due to the quick connect on the leg loop.

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BD's Bod is my most used canyon harness, and, I've used a biner on the leg on it a bunch. Not sure why you can't?

Here's how I did Englestead (on a static 8mm 300 foot rope):

Attachment 57200

My first (and last) use of a Trango B-52 (didn't much care for it). Munter on leg loop. Easy money. Smooth, but, with the twisting on the munter, I much prefer to just use two ATC's.

Don't have a picture handy of the set up, but, its easy to imagine. ATC on belay loop, another on a sling extended from harness. Thread rope, go.

Kinda got the idear from watching a pro photographer climber guy rig for a photo shoot where he was hanging free air to do some shooting. Was using a Gri Gri, but, added friction by running the rope through an ATC as well. Made sense to me.

Like Bo, I don't mind a rappel rack and I have a super light CMI Firefly or some such, that I modified to be able to get the rope into. Its normally used for pre-attachment to a rope for bailing out of a building, but, I cut one of the bars up so it swings open. Pretty sweet rig, but, those aluminum bars don't wear well in Zion(s). Smooth rappel, though.

With this:
http://www.innermountainoutfitters.n...=361&brand=BMS

BMS micro rack with stainless steel bars. Bars usually last about five years before needing to be replaced. Long frame for light people, short frame for heavier people. I recommend the two hyper bars as it makes for an easy, quick soft lock-off and the first and third bars can be flipped when wear gets too deep. Works great on 9mm and 8mm rope. Both can be doubled in the rack if necessary. I have not done Heaps but works like a charm on 8mm in Englestead.

Thanks all for the ideas. I have some new stuff to try now. No one has identified any disadvantages of the ATS in stitch plate mode yet so if you haven't tried that I highly recommend it. Pretty simple and less gear involved than any of these other methods with no difficult moves to be made on the fly.

I wear an BD Alpine Bod and a Z-rig is no problem. My go-to rig for long rappels currently is a BD ATC-XP and a Z-rig, with the lower biner attached to the leg loop.

With the BD Alpine BOD just make sure the biner on the leg is attached to the load bearing part of the leg loop and not the strap with the disconnect used to hold it in place.

I'll try and post a pic tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by EvergreenDean

I like that combo but again the pulling upward with the brake is not my favorite. Once the full "Z" is engaged it is fine, but that is too much friction to start a long free hang when I tried it. There is that intermediate time when I am forced to use just the lower biner and I have to pull upwards to brake.

Guru, do you start with the lower left horn then wrap over the top right horn to add? That might work. I can't seem to remember why I didn't like it. Maybe too much for me at the start. Seems I started with no horns and added lower right which caused the upward braking issue I dislike.

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Yes i do use the bottom left horn, I think that is set up #2 and add the top right horn when i need more friction. This does not work well when using double strand but in a rap as long as we are talking that probably would never happen. I have never used a biner on my leg loop but i like what Tom was talking about running it from left leg across your lap and down to a right handed brake hand. I might have to try that. Then you can also run it over the top right horn if you still need more friction.

I do agree also on the pirana like any figure eight style device that it does twist the rope and when doing a lot of back to back long raps it gets the rope pretty twisted. I just love how easy the Pirana is and how i don't have to take off the device from the biner to get off rope. Its a great tool and i will probably keep using it.

I did a 300 foot free hang on an ATS and didn't have any problem with spinning. The rope was pretty twisted at the bottom, but I didn't spin. That worked great for me, though, and I'm 250 pounds. I just switched the the super high friction mode (I don't know what they actually call that) when I was ready for it and that kept me solid for the rest of the way down.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I wear an BD Alpine Bod and a Z-rig is no problem. My go-to rig for long rappels currently is a BD ATC-XP and a Z-rig, with the lower biner attached to the leg loop.

With the BD Alpine BOD just make sure the biner on the leg is attached to the load bearing part of the leg loop and not the strap with the disconnect used to hold it in place.

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Thanks for the info. My concern was that even if I clip to the fat load bearing part of the leg loop, it still puts some force on the plastic disconnect. If that breaks or pops open, it yanks the leg loop around to that side and could potentially cause some momentary loss of control, which could lead to a more serious problem.

I am always wary of loading a harness some way other than intended by its designer, although in this case I don't see how it could cause a total failure.

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Originally Posted by Bluff-Canyoneer

Thanks for the info. My concern was that even if I clip to the fat load bearing part of the leg loop, it still puts some force on the plastic disconnect. If that breaks or pops open, it yanks the leg loop around to that side and could potentially cause some momentary loss of control, which could lead to a more serious problem.

I am always wary of loading a harness some way other than intended by its designer, although in this case I don't see how it could cause a total failure.

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The Alpine Bod was my product for 12 years. There is generally zero force on the plastic buckle when rappelling - which is why they do not break. Perhaps in a 'safe' environment you could hang from the rope and clip the biner to the leg loop and see whether there is significant force on the plastic buckle. I don't have one here, but as I recall, there would be no force across the buckle.

Tom :moses:

Brian, thanks for the pic. when reading these paragraphs I keep picturing what is being explained and then going over it again to be sure I am right. the pic is much better than paragraph descriptions. I have seen other threads on rigging up for different situations and i guess I'm a bit daft because even when I think I am following, when I see a pic it is sometimes a bit different than I was thinking. A pain to dig up and post, but much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Perhaps in a 'safe' environment you could hang from the rope and ...

Tom :moses:

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l

Ah yes, the dangers of my armchair canyoneering. My original (and mistaken) concerns came from looking at this photo in another thread a few weeks back.
Attachment 57363
I recall looking the photo and thinking "That's not going to work for me because of the plastic buckle on my leg loop."
However, as Brian, Iceaxe and others have noted, I can just move the leg loop biner up to the load bearning, thicker, part and solve the problem.

Following Tom's suggestion, I got off my butt, went out to the garage, and set up a z-rig with the z biner moved to the load bearing part of the leg loop. Here's what I found:
1) Because the z biner is pulling on the leg loop, it does apply a very small force on the plastic buckle. This force is along the long axis, and not likely to cause it to pull open.
Even more importantly,
2) Even if I manually open the buckle, nothing shifts around, which was my concern. The body weight forces on the ATC clip in keep everything right where it should be.

Sorry for raising a false alarm here. I'm not usually this dense, maybe the desert sun is taking its toll.