Echo (Zions) conditions

Just went through yesterday. Echo is in fine shape right now. Plenty of very cold water, so suits are mandatory. No outhouse smell. Anchors in the upper part of the canyon are so-so (so inspect carefully). The rock stack we found at R1 impressed us with its towering height and girth (about 3.5' h x 4' wide) but not with its integrity. Dismantling revealed that the red 1" tubular webbing was held in place mostly by friction. We re-worked the pile well enough to move on, but didn't re-build it for the ages. Always inspect/test/rework ALL anchors before use.

That's great advice and usually do inspect all, but I have wondered about deadman anchors? Normally I've just backed them up with a meat anchor and sequenced down. Is there a better way?

Tear em down, inspect, rebuild!!

we went through echo today. 1st deadman that was built looked really good after inspection and we used it. The 2nd one we used but was a little suspect of it. We went ahead and used it with no problems because the drop isn't too far, but be careful on it or rebuild it. The least amount of water I've ever seen in echo, but it's still cold. My wife tried to tough it all the way through without her suit, but succomed to the cold water after the pool with the log and suited up to finish the canyon.

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

That's great advice and usually do inspect all, but I have wondered about deadman anchors? Normally I've just backed them up with a meat anchor and sequenced down. Is there a better way?

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Back up with a meat anchor and only last man at risk = potentially dangerous.

Before delving into the why, let me introduce a concept - the Progressive Failure. A PF is like tearing a sheet of paper a bit at a time. It only actually parts (fails) with the last tug, but each little tug gets it closer to failing.

Most of the systems we encounter are not Progressive Fails, they are Limit Fails. Put too much force on it, and it fails. Put less than that force on it, and it does not fail. So we don't think about Progressive fails a lot, but they do happen.

Buried Deadman Anchors CAN be Progressive Fails, working its way toward failure. I've seen a couple of these in the field, mostly due to non-careful deadman construction. Progressive Failures can occur because: A. the webbing is gradually slipping off the rock; B. the webbing has a cut in it that is slowly tearing; or C. the rocks are rearranging themselves with every tug, eventually leading to failure.

Malia was teaching a class in North Wash. They went to some canyon and built a deadman anchor, and all rappelled off it. All good. Next day, she had the other section of the class for the same canyon. They were running a bit late, so she thought "maybe we should just rappel off this deadman we built yesterday and get on to other tasks..."

But, it was a class, therefore, really should do all the stuff. They broke down the deadman and, to Malia's horror, on the bottom of the pile, the 1" tubular webbing was cut halfway through. Apparently an over-enthusiastic placement of the sharp-edged limestone rock had caused damage. Would the deadman of failed? Maybe not right away, maybe not in a long time - but my life needs more than a maybe.

So.

Your hiking down a canyon, and come to a strand of webbing coming out of the sand? Dig it up, check everything, re-build?

Your choice, kinda. But for me, the answer is yes, every time.

Tom :moses:

Makes a whole lotta sense, thanks #7 and Tom. I will certainly inspect all carefully in the future. My life (and my family and friend's) needs more than a "maybe" also.

Do most just use their hands to bury a deadman, or do some carry a small shovel?

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Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction

Makes a whole lotta sense, thanks #7 and Tom. I will certainly inspect all carefully in the future. My life (and my family and friend's) needs more than a "maybe" also.

Do most just use their hands to bury a deadman, or do some carry a small shovel?

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Mostly just hands (helps to have gloves). In wet conditions in the Roost, I sometimes carry a couple quart yogurt containers to dig with. (Requires two containers stacked - one just instantly blows apart.)

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Back up with a meat anchor and only last man at risk = potentially dangerous.

Before delving into the why, let me introduce a concept - the Progressive Failure. A PF is like tearing a sheet of paper a bit at a time. It only actually parts (fails) with the last tug, but each little tug gets it closer to failing.

Most of the systems we encounter are not Progressive Fails, they are Limit Fails. Put too much force on it, and it fails. Put less than that force on it, and it does not fail. So we don't think about Progressive fails a lot, but they do happen.

Buried Deadman Anchors CAN be Progressive Fails, working its way toward failure. I've seen a couple of these in the field, mostly due to non-careful deadman construction. Progressive Failures can occur because: A. the webbing is gradually slipping off the rock; B. the webbing has a cut in it that is slowly tearing; or C. the rocks are rearranging themselves with every tug, eventually leading to failure.

Malia was teaching a class in North Wash. They went to some canyon and built a deadman anchor, and all rappelled off it. All good. Next day, she had the other section of the class for the same canyon. They were running a bit late, so she thought "maybe we should just rappel off this deadman we built yesterday and get on to other tasks..."

But, it was a class, therefore, really should do all the stuff. They broke down the deadman and, to Malia's horror, on the bottom of the pile, the 1" tubular webbing was cut halfway through. Apparently an over-enthusiastic placement of the sharp-edged limestone rock had caused damage. Would the deadman of failed? Maybe not right away, maybe not in a long time - but my life needs more than a maybe.

So.

Your hiking down a canyon, and come to a strand of webbing coming out of the sand? Dig it up, check everything, re-build?

Your choice, kinda. But for me, the answer is yes, every time.

Tom :moses:

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Thanks for the info

We always stage heaviest to lightest with using a meat anchor but not weighting the anchor, just their in case. We did have one move once on us on the third out of 6 people and were glad we had a backup. I havn't always rebuilt anchors and used other peoples but it's definitely a little riskier and I'm not quite sure our reasoning of why we do sometimes and not others, I'm generally not in a hurry to get through canyons. Probably just being either trusting of fellow canyoneers or being lazy. Maybe a little of both.

Great advice, Tom.

Some of these unnatural (ha ha) rockstack type anchors worry me. If you kinda look through especially rock climbing accidents with rappel anchor failure, you'll see a fair number of them over the years. Analysis of some of them leads me to think that sometimes very subtle rappel position differences can cause an anchor to fail. Height of a rappeller might be more of a factor than weight for some rappel anchors. Direction of pull changes. A short slip onto the anchor. Hard to evaluate.

Is this still one of the rap anchors in Middle Echo?

Attachment 55782

Always thought it was short for this world...

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Originally Posted by 2065toyota

Thanks for the info

We always stage heaviest to lightest with using a meat anchor but not weighting the anchor, just their in case. We did have one move once on us on the third out of 6 people and were glad we had a backup. I havn't always rebuilt anchors and used other peoples but it's definitely a little riskier and I'm not quite sure our reasoning of why we do sometimes and not others, I'm generally not in a hurry to get through canyons. Probably just being either trusting of fellow canyoneers or being lazy. Maybe a little of both.

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It is an excellent idea to back up the anchor with meat, but...

We generally BACK UP the anchor with meat, but allow the anchor to take the load. Certainly as the last person going down, I want to develop great confidence in the anchor before using it. (Again, our 'normal thinking' is based around Limit Failure, rather than Progressive Failure.)

Group Dynamics lead to group laziness.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Is this still one of the rap anchors in Middle Echo?

Attachment 55782

Always thought it was short for this world...

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Yup, I went thru Echo on Monday and this anchor is still in tact and in use!

On a side note is there an upper echo? i have done middle following standard RD but have never heard of upper. I asume that the canyon has to start somewhere. thanks.

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

On a side note is there an upper echo? i have done middle following standard RD but have never heard of upper. I asume that the canyon has to start somewhere. thanks.

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Tom did a rave about it a while back....
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...art-june-2011/

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Originally Posted by canyonguru

On a side note is there an upper echo? i have done middle following standard RD but have never heard of upper. I asume that the canyon has to start somewhere. thanks.

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There is also the standard middle echo entrance, but if you have Tom's book it also shows an alternative middle echo entrance which is often referred to as upper echo. Then there is the full echo the post above put a link to the rave.

Tom's standard entrance sucks.... it's like getting laid and skipping the foreplay.

Here is a better entrance:
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/echo.htm

FWIW: Upper Echo is from Zion Ponderosa down to the Cable Mountain Trail. Middle Echo is Cable Mountain Trail down to where the trail crosses Echo Canyon. Lower Echo is from where the trail crosses Echo Canyon down to Weeping Rock.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95ceHXuXS8

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Most of the systems we encounter are not Progressive Fails, they are Limit Fails. Put too much force on it, and it fails. Put less than that force on it, and it does not fail. So we don't think about Progressive fails a lot, but they do happen.

Buried Deadman Anchors CAN be Progressive Fails, working its way toward failure. I've seen a couple of these in the field, mostly due to non-careful deadman construction. Progressive Failures can occur because: A. the webbing is gradually slipping off the rock; B. the webbing has a cut in it that is slowly tearing; or C. the rocks are rearranging themselves with every tug, eventually leading to failure.


Tom :moses:

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I get this! And now understanding these concepts, I have a greater respect for inspecting these anchors.

Actually I have an argument for inspection instead of everyone voting to just rely without question. :2thumbs:

Thanks, Felicia