Subway 6/1, need trail clarification

Hey Guys, I've been a lurker here for years & finally joined back in Jan while researching for our July Zion trip.

I'm a noob to canyoneering but I've done quite a bit of hiking & some climbing/rappelling. We got a permit for Subway for 7/1 and I've been trying to research what we will truely need for this trail. I read quite a few trip logs and some say you don't need any rap gear and others saying you do. What do I need to bring?? I know you can do top down or up from the bottom and back, but are there more difficult or easier trails coming from the top down?

Any info/tips that you can throw at me would be awesome!!:haha: If anyone else is going to do Subway 7/1 or narrows 7/2 and would like to car share with us (4 total) that would be sweet!!

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Originally Posted by JoyC

Hey Guys, I've been a lurker here for years & finally joined back in Jan while researching for our July Zion trip.

I'm a noob to mountaineering but I've done quite a bit of hiking & some climbing/rappelling. We got a permit for Subway for 7/1 and I've been trying to research what we will truely need for this trail. I read quite a few trip logs and some say you don't need any rap gear and others saying you do. What do I need to bring?? I know you can do top down or up from the bottom and back, but are there more difficult or easier trails coming from the top down?

Any info/tips that you can throw at me would be awesome!!:haha: If anyone else is going to do Subway 7/1 or narrows 7/2 and would like to car share with us (4 total) that would be sweet!!

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Greetings, and welcome to the Bogley. We call this stuff Canyoneering, and I hope you are aware that the Subway is not a "trail" (ie, does not meet the high standards for a trail in a National Park) but is a "route", requiring more backcountry savvy than the paved, well-marked trails found in Zion.

I think I have quite a good write up on the Subway here:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...zion-top-down/

Some people (ie, males age 17-30, and Jacob) do it without technical gear, but most will want a short rope (60 feet), harnesses, rappel devices and helmets. (Bickering will commence on this issue, here on Bogley).

There are three starts to the Subway from the top. The regular route is called either "the regular route" or "the Russell Gulch approach" since it goes NEXT to Russell Gulch. The second route is called Russell Gulch since it goes down Russell Gulch, and has three nice 100' rappels. A more-difficult route in is called Das Boot, requires wetsuits (probably) and has challenging navigation. For your first subway, I'd recommend the regular route. If your party is small and comfortable with rappelling, Russell Gulch makes a nice alternative with a little more action.

Das Boot and Russell Gulch require an additional permit thingee added to your regular permit (for free) and have a group size limit of 6. (Bickering will commence on this issue, here on Bogley).

It is super hot out, so wetsuits are clearly not helpful at the moment. There are swims so you will need drybags for anything you want to keep dry.

This time of year, is really, really hot out; so get an early start. The last 2-1/2 hours are along the stream in the full sun. We tend to take a siesta until about 5 pm at the end of the Subway section, then do the hike out when there is some shade on it. Which requires an extra lunch. There is not easily obtained drinkable water in there, but you could take a pump or Aquamira to get more water to drink.

And it is a Sublime route. Have fun!

Tom

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Greetings, and welcome to the Bogley. We call this stuff Canyoneering, and I hope you are aware that the Subway is not a "trail" (ie, does not meet the high standards for a trail in a National Park) but is a "route", requiring more backcountry savvy than the paved, well-marked trails found in Zion.

I think I have quite a good write up on the Subway here:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...zion-top-down/

Some people (ie, males age 17-30, and Jacob) do it without technical gear, but most will want a short rope (60 feet), harnesses, rappel devices and helmets. (Bickering will commence on this issue, here on Bogley).

There are three starts to the Subway from the top. The regular route is called either "the regular route" or "the Russell Gulch approach" since it goes NEXT to Russell Gulch. The second route is called Russell Gulch since it goes down Russell Gulch, and has three nice 100' rappels. A more-difficult route in is called Das Boot, requires wetsuits (probably) and has challenging navigation. For your first subway, I'd recommend the regular route. If your party is small and comfortable with rappelling, Russell Gulch makes a nice alternative with a little more action.

Das Boot and Russell Gulch require an additional permit thingee added to your regular permit (for free) and have a group size limit of 6. (Bickering will commence on this issue, here on Bogley).

It is super hot out, so wetsuits are clearly not helpful at the moment. There are swims so you will need drybags for anything you want to keep dry.

This time of year, is really, really hot out; so get an early start. The last 2-1/2 hours are along the stream in the full sun. We tend to take a siesta until about 5 pm at the end of the Subway section, then do the hike out when there is some shade on it. Which requires an extra lunch. There is not easily obtained drinkable water in there, but you could take a pump or Aquamira to get more water to drink.

And it is a Sublime route. Have fun!

Tom

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Tom, that's probably the best shortened beta version of the subway I've read. You should copy and paste that where needed. Simple, concise, objectionable (ie young guys=no ropes, older folks=ropes)and no fluff to get people confused.

Tom, thanks to much for your quick reply! I definitely meant to type Canyoneering in there as clearly not a mountain :haha:

I guess I use trail as anything we hiking on, bush wacking making a trail of our own ect. But I'll stick with route. Ill be traveling with 3 males in their late 20s, me being the only girl, which is why I'm trying to get the most detailed info. They are crazy and will scale up or down just about anything, I on the other hand would rather not be sleeping in the canyon waiting for someone to get a chopper ride out bc of stupidity.

I saw that a few of the gear shops in Zion have rap gear to rent, has anyone had or heard of how good/bad those rentals are? We have dry sacks and I would debate Russell gulch if we can rent decent gear, here in Western NY we don't have much use for our own rope as I usually am with friends who have plenty of gear but they are headed on a separate trip this year.

If it's your first time in the Subway just do the standard top down route. It will be more then enough adventure for you. Take a 60 rope no matter the age of the males. I'd say rappelling gear is optional for your group, but having at least one harness and rappel devise along is a nice bonus if needed.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

It is super hot out, so wetsuits are clearly not helpful at the moment.

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I have to respectfully disagree here; I found a wetsuit this past Saturday to be very, very helpful. As did the other two members in my group. Are they vital? Absolutely not. You'll get by just fine without one in the summer. But they definitely enabled us to spend a little more time having fun in the pools, exploring, taking photographs, etc...If you, or anyone in your group tend to run a little on the cold side, I wouldn't completely rule them out.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

(Bickering will commence on this issue, here on Bogley).

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Bickering!? here on Bogley, who would dare!:lol8: I thought we were all one big happy canyoneering family.

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Originally Posted by ratagonia

Some people (ie, males age 17-30, and Jacob) do it without technical gear, but most will want a short rope (60 feet), harnesses, rappel devices and helmets. (Bickering will commence on this issue, here on Bogley).

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Jacob recommends no technical gear, yes. But bring a bit of webbing and know how to make a harness out of it, just in case. Or you can just tie a loop in the end, put their arm through it and belay them down easy. There are 2 tricky spots. You have to navigate a 10 foot waterfall, and a fairly steep 30 foot ledge. It may be tempting but do not slide down it, use a rope, the last 4 feet are pretty steep. I honestly bring a wetsuit, you can survive without it, but I am so much more comfortable and love to splash and play in the water. If you want to do the "freeze for 3 mins then warm up in the sun for 5 mins" route you can. The swims are short and an extra wetsuit is heavy. But Subway is one of the easiest routes out there, maybe next to Kanarravile canyon.

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Originally Posted by plutacratic77

I have to respectfully disagree here; I found a wetsuit this past Saturday to be very, very helpful. As did the other two members in my group. Are they vital? Absolutely not. You'll get by just fine without one in the summer. But they definitely enabled us to spend a little more time having fun in the pools, exploring, taking photographs, etc...If you, or anyone in your group tend to run a little on the cold side, I wouldn't completely rule them out.

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I would agree with this.

We were in the Subway on Saturday, June 16th. Zion Canyon temps were over 100 degrees that day. In our group of 8, most all had wetsuits; 2 did not. Those that had wetsuits "enjoyed" the cold water. Those without moved quickly to get through and out of the water........YMMV.

My group of seven (I did not go) went through on Sunday 06/24/12 and they started very early; leaving Springdale at 6:00 AM. No one had a wetsuit. Several in the group were very cold as they did not catch sun in the canyon until after the last rappel. Most agreed that starting a little later would have been nicer.

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Originally Posted by Felicia

My group of seven (I did not go) went through on Sunday 06/24/12 and they started very early; leaving Springdale at 6:00 AM. No one had a wetsuit. Several in the group were very cold as they did not catch sun in the canyon until after the last rappel. Most agreed that starting a little later would have been nicer.

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Agreed. Definitely not a trip that requires an early start. I don't like to hit the exit until at least 5 pm to avoid the sun. So we either start late or spend a lot of time in the canyon

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Originally Posted by JoyC

Tom, thanks to much for your quick reply! I definitely meant to type Canyoneering in there as clearly not a mountain :haha:

I guess I use trail as anything we hiking on, bush wacking making a trail of our own ect. But I'll stick with route. Ill be traveling with 3 males in their late 20s, me being the only girl, which is why I'm trying to get the most detailed info. They are crazy and will scale up or down just about anything, I on the other hand would rather not be sleeping in the canyon waiting for someone to get a chopper ride out bc of stupidity.

I saw that a few of the gear shops in Zion have rap gear to rent, has anyone had or heard of how good/bad those rentals are? We have dry sacks and I would debate Russell gulch if we can rent decent gear, here in Western NY we don't have much use for our own rope as I usually am with friends who have plenty of gear but they are headed on a separate trip this year.

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I have added an article about tying a harness from webbing to the Tech Tips:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...-canyoneering/

"I saw that a few of the gear shops in Zion have rap gear to rent, has anyone had or heard of how good/bad those rentals are?"

I work for Zion Adventure Company on occasion. What exactly do you want to know? We rent some gear and the gear is used but in good shape. Including helmets.

Tom

@JoyC Here is a good picture of the toughest spot on the hike, from the National Park website. You can see she is just lowering herself by hand, it's steep but not too bad. But it's nice to have options once you get there if you don't feel up to it for whatever reason. :)
http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisi...servations.htm
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Originally Posted by ratagonia

I have added an article about tying a harness from webbing to the Tech Tips:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...-canyoneering/

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Nice article. You might want to put a small section in there for people who are doing Subway trips like this and don't want something so complicated though. 3 steps, 1 knot, and half the webbing. http://www.ehow.com/how_4898759_tie-climbing-harness-webbing.html

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Originally Posted by Deathcricket

Nice article. You might want to put a small section in there for people who are doing Subway trips like this and don't want something so complicated though. 3 steps, 1 knot, and half the webbing.

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While it is worthwhile to know how to make this simple "diaper", the clip in point for this style is very, VERY low, and it requires very careful use to prevent tipping over and falling out of it. For instance on the transition from slab to vertical on the last rap in the Subway.

Thus, the diaper sling is a DANGEROUS method for general consumption, and I cannot see how detailing it on the CUSA site would serve the community.

For canyons with one or two raps that are not overhanging, I use a diaper sling myself. But I do so carefully.

One impetus for putting up an article on Canyoneering USA was the preponderance of quite bad articles on the Googleplex...

Tom