Do you use a safety backup?

Hello,
In Mountaineering, The Freedom of the Hills, there is a section in Chapter 11 - Rappelling entitled, Safety Backups (p. 204). It talks about self-belaying with an autoblock or prusik attached to the leg loop of your harness. I did a quick search here and see that there's a few topics on autoblocks, but I thought I'd start another as most of the results seem to be a little older.

Do you use an autoblock or prusik as a safety backup? What are the pros and cons of using a safety backup? As a noob, I seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to lifting up my hand if I slip, which is of course the exact opposite of what I should be doing. Given this, it seems maybe I should be using an autoblock? The Mountaineering book claims the autoblock is better than the prusik. If you use a safety backup, which method do you prefer?

Regards

If I do, its only on long free rappels and I use a VT Prusik autoblock. The VT is easy to tie and can be released more easily when loaded than most other knots. I have a BD bod harness and the leg loops don't lend themselves to the attachment of autoblocks, so I just rig it off my belay loop.

Pro: extra degree of safety

Con: more stuff to deal with and steps to screw up. Takes an extra hand to tend the knot while descending, hence, I only use it occasionally and only on free raps.

No. If the person is noobish or uncomfortable a simple bottom belay is easy. I've also noted they seem to hinder where you can put your brake hand, never far from your body, and prevent people from learning proper rap techniques. So I see it as a crutch.

I agree with Deathcricket. You should seriously evaluate the added value of anything that makes the process more complicated, because the added complexity can become a danger in itself if it distracts you from the basics. I just went canyoneering with some "professional" guides in Mexico, and while I saw the value of some of the techniques they used for setting up anchors, I thought most of what they did was unnecessarily complicated and easy to mess up.

Now, having said that, I see the value of the autoblock or similar technique for certain types of rappels. But if the rap is really that sketchy, it might be worth setting up a top belay.

Take all that with a grain of salt though, because I don't have much experience setting up backups.

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

I'm from Europe, where we're being taught to always use a prusik for self-belay. I have tried without, which felt too unsafe and fast for me, tried the autoblock, which does not block as reliabe as the prusik. I would never ever rappel without a prusik self-belay.
You may want to search the forum for rappel accidents, you'll soon notice that rappelling is unsafe without a self-belay.
There is actually one reason for not using a prusik, but an autoblock instead - this is when rappelling into a pool of water, when release from the rope should be quick and easy.

You may want to check my recent post on the TR for Diana's Throne Canyon for a picture of the setup with a Prusik belay.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

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x2

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Originally Posted by Kryzzle

You may want to check my recent post on the TR for Diana's Throne Canyon for a picture of the setup with a Prusik belay.

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I think some folks have gotton away from using your method and instead extend their rappel device out from their harness. At least one fatality in Europe (a guide I seem to recall) where the person stopped to untangle the ropes, while on rappel, shifted sideways, and, the autoblock (or Prusik) came into contact with their rappel device and they lost control of the rappel and plummented off the end of the ropes.

One of my main climbing partners rarely rappels without an autoblock back up below his rappel device (which he extends from his harness). But, fairly rare for climbers, and, not common for canyoneers either. Especially in canyons with water flow, I've never seen a back up used (especially in Europe by seasoned European guides/canyoneers).

Using a Prusik to control your friction on rappel might have a diminishing return sooner or later...

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

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X3

Some lessons regarding the application of an autoblock I've had to learn the hard way, or from others. I am very discriminate in its application. I don't generally have a problem with lack of friction because I rap double strand 90% of the time. I can only think of a few instances where I've ever used one, only on long single free raps. Never once have I actually needed it.

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

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X4

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Originally Posted by dustinsc

while I saw the value of some of the techniques they used for setting up anchors, I thought most of what they did was unnecessarily complicated and easy to mess up.

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And quite often I've seen the end results of those that do mess up. Cold, hungry, exhausted ready to touch down and call it a day.....yep, not as rare as one might think!

Roundabout answer...

I spent a lot of time this weekend (stuck at work with little to do) reading various threads about canyoneering rappelling accidents. Given that my personal experience with rappelling is strictly within the climbing world, a lot of what I read was news to me. In particular, the issue of insufficient friction to control descent speed.

Thinking back, all my raps have been on double strand: either a rope doubled through the anchor, or joined ropes. So I guess that's why I never had any problem controlling my descent with a basic BD ATC. But I gathered from those threads that descending a single strand with that device is risky to say the least. This of course led to extensive discussions of various back-up devices (autoblock, etc.).

The only time I ever had a back-up was when I was first being taught to rap (in the Colo. Mt. Club's rock climbing school!). They had us noobs on belay from the top. Was I reckless not using a back-up system after that? As noted, I definitely never had a problem with insufficient friction. But I was cognizant that if for any reason I lost control with my brake hand, I was gone.

BTW, what is a "belay from the bottom"? Is that when somebody is pulling down on the rap rope? Or some other sort of rig?

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Originally Posted by Candace66

BTW, what is a "belay from the bottom"? Is that when somebody is pulling down on the rap rope? Or some other sort of rig?

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You are correct, it is a person at the bottom in a position of holding the rappel line(I extend my arm up towards the rappeler, rope in hand)Who, if "paying attention" can arrest a fall or release of brake hand by rappeler. AKA--Firemans Belay. A good belayer from the bottom, can also control the rappelers descente,lower the rappeler if necessary.

Beware on a "Firemans" conditional bottom belay! On a "catch" at the last rappel of Heaps (275') I had to jump backwards and drop at least 2 meters to arrest an out of control descent. #1 is that there will always be some slack in the line between the bottom belayer and the rappeller. #2 is that rope is not "static", meaning that your rope stretches. FWIW

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

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X5

much better to learn how and use a device that allows you to set up the correct amount of friction (or know how to set up more friction if needed) so your hand doesn't get tired from poor technique etc. With the correct amount of friction you can often rappel handsfree (I love my rack for just that reason HEHE)

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Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

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X6,
There is a guy that we go with on occasion and he tries to get me to use one since I am usually the first one down. I try to explain to him that is is unnecessary and that I feel more uncomfortable with an autoblock. Safety is important but unnecessarily complicating things is dangerous.

I wouldn't poo poo folks using a rappel backup...but... I think setting a perfect autoblock is pretty subtle and my bet is a fair portion of folks who employ a back up to a rappel by using a friction hitch below their rappel device might be kiddin' themselves. They need to be just about perfect to actually work.

A Prusik below the rappel device? Pretty uncommon. Let's say you're on rappel and the Prusik cinches up. Now what? Good luck gettin' moving again.

The beauty of a autoblock or a Penberthy (aka the Vald

X7,

Only time I have used a Prusik break attached to the harness (above the belay device) was when I knew I needed to make a mid line stop. (i.e. retrieve gear, help someone stuck on another line, etc.)

I just hook up and go, after double checking everything, of course. I'll also never rappel without thick, leather gloves. The type used by rock climbers, fingerless. I've noticed that some have a tendency, like you said, of letting go of the brake hand or moving it in all kinds of wacky directions when they loose footing or slip. When I'm on rope, nothing in the world is more important than my right hand. Some folks just think differently, I guess.

I always belay noobs and drill "brake hand, brake hand, brake hand" into their brains. Even with that, I have a couple friends who've done many rappels but I still get nervous with them because they have trouble chewing gum and patting their stomach at the same time. I would advise a safety device for anyone that thinks they need it, or if it makes them comfortable.