Zion's Mt. Kinesava Private Property Issues

What do you think? Should I leave the trail description with directions to it? Is it best to delete the trailhead description and gps coordinates as I did or should I delete the entire thing?


I removed any part that has to do with the private property.


They seem to have issues with homeowners, gates and Zion at their meeting clear back in 2008.
http://www.springdaletown.com/pdf/minutes_pdf/PC/2008/041508pcm.pdf

The man writing the letter is on the planning commission. Helps to serve your own cause I suppose.

Planning Commission
Steve Masefield
Paul Mailloux
David Rutz
Johnathan Zambella
Alternate
Christine Wolken
Tom Haraden, Advisory


http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-mt-kinesava.htm
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: PM Design of Southern Utah <pmdesign@infowest.com>
To: gotta@visitzionpark.com
Sent: Sat, February 12, 2011 2:22:05 PM
Subject: Mt. Kinesava and West Temple Trail description

To whom it may concern:

The trailhead description given in your website for access to Mt Kinesava and the West temple through Serendipity Lane and Mukuntuweap Dr. requires crossing over PRIVATE PROPERTY.

The roads described are posted as private roads. They are not posted No Treaspassing as a courtesy to locals and guests. However, once one leaves the road at any point in Kinesava Ranch subdivision one must cross private property to access Zion National Park.

Remove the trail description from your website. After 30 days if no action is taken on your part, a meeting of the Kinesava Ranch Homeowner's association will be held to consider further action.

Sincerely
Paul Mailloux
President - Kinesava Ranch Homeowner's Association

personally, in would put them in bold, italics. but that's just me. oh yea, i'd also include paul's phone number so everyone can call him for permission.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denaliguide

personally, in would put them in bold, italics. but that's just me. oh yea, i'd also include paul's phone number so everyone can call him for permission.

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(435) 772-7421

:lol8: You guys are funny!!!!


I assume people can park in town where other of the parks hikers are allowed and actually walk from there. We have one here that does not want anyone on their land and tries to block Red Cave. I can see one point he has though. People pay to hunt his land and hikers are in their way out there and would not stay off the access during the hunt. Luckily there is another way where another local does allow people to pass, but even he requires they stop and ask.

Red Hollow begins at my house. I would never have a problem with people going to do it. Many park in my front yard under my shade tree too while they go and hike it.

I guess it's their right to do so, but to be fair, if they can keep people from accessing the national park, the national park should keep the landownwers from accessing the park as well from that location. There should be a big fence between the private land and the national park, so they can't access it either.

I like how you think!!!! :clap:


I think it said something like that in their town meeting minutes actually. It's a good point. The builders should have built a walk way around the division and there would be no issues.

I suspect a little bit of money would make this all go away, but they'll never get it from the Parks Service.

A few years ago, the San Ildefonso Indian Reservation threatened to close down a section of New Mexico Hwy 4 between the only two towns in Los Alamos County (Los Alamos & White Rock), and which also leads to Bandelier National Monument. They claimed they couldn't afford to respond to highway emergencies on the three mile stretch of the highway that passes through their reservation. Everybody knew what was going to happen. The national laboratory here, which is the dominant entity in northern New Mexico and which is supported to the tune of more than $2 BILLION of tax dollars, ponied up several millions of dollars to the few hundred people of the reservation and the problem went away.

Tanya, I'm curious, have these folks completely shut down access or do they still permit access but don't won't it advertised by vehicles such as your great website?

All I know is what is in that email I posted.

When they bought that property they knew that they were building across the access to the Mt. Kinesava Trail. They limited access to a trail that has been in use for, what, decades? centuries?

I think the term is "adverse possession."

Maybe Scott Card could help us understand if this loophole and how/if it applies to hikers.

Would love to hear from a lawyer like Scott. :clap:

This is interesting. It is posted in my Zion group in reply to the same post as above.

Oddly, it presumably was my friend and I who unwittingly provoked the email to
you, as we were there on Saturday.

We parked on the highway as we always do (which is legal), walked up the road,
then the little draw, then up. On the way down (maybe I'll post what we did
later today), the fellow comes striding out his door to intercept us as walked
down the road. Fine, it was the middle of a pleasant afternoon, happy to stop
and talk with anyone.

He was the Pres of the HOA, said he'd lived here 17 years, and wanted us to know
the following things:

* It's a private road
* One cannot access ZNP except by crossing private property
* People have been driving up and parking in the cul-de-sacs, which they
definitely don't like
* The historic trail definitely went up there, until someone built a house right
on top of it
* When the land was developed, the Park made no attempt to sustain access, as
they'd just as soon nobody went up West Temple, as they hate rescues.

It took him about :15 to tell us that, as he also started in on his life story,
but he was a nice enough person, although a bit off the deep end.

Courtney's book actually suggests people park in the cul-de-sacs, which is not
good.

You can write whatever you want on your website (which is excellent BTW - thank
you!). If it were me, I'd just tell the truth (always the simplest plan):

* The historic, and the easiest access for both W Temp and Kinesava went thru
what is now private homesites.
* The owners don't want anyone to use it.
* If you do hike up there, do not drive, but rather park somewhere down on the
highway.
* The Chinle trailhead, out of Anasazi Estates, is a few miles down the road; it
is perfectly legal, works well, and adds a mile maybe to the route each way.
* (Is there another more direct route coming out of the south end of town?)


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zion_N.../message/49071


thoughts?

Paul sent another mail and I should have waited and let Bo answer, but rambled on.
__________________________

Thank You, the fact is that this year has seen an explosion of the use of the "trail". We have had 4 parties this week.

I have received compliants from two separate homowners of hikers walking past their bedroom windows in the early morning hours, descending into their back yards, parking in the cul de sacs (illegal in terms of the town ordinance regarding Kinesava Ranch) and various other complaints.

The old trail now runs through someone's house and the town and the park made no efforts to secure an easement. In fact, the ex-superintendent of the park told me that the park officially discourages climbing Kinesava and the West Temple due to rescue logistics problems.

We don't care if the locals use the trail you describe. They seem to respect our privacy. Its the California, Coloado, Nevada influx that doesn't have a sensibility as to proper conduct on or near private property.

At prescribed trail to Kinesava and the West Temple does exist off the Chinle trail from the established trailhead at Anaszi Plateau. I've been told that it's longer but actually less strenuous to the base of the wall. I've heard that it is the best access to Coyboy Ridge. I suspect you could post that trail description with impunity.

Thanks again
Paul Mailloux



_____________________________

Hello Paul,

I in no way want to cause you grief! If we met, I bet we would really like each other. I am sure you are a wonderful person that just feels others should stay away from his home as do your neighbors. I might be a bit more open since I have 5 kids, 3 are teen girls and I have 4 grandkids next door and the whole bunch along with their friends are here a great deal of the time. My home is like grand central station. Teens from the neighborhood don't ever knocked before just walking in and if I see hikers that have obviously done a long hike, walking in the dirt road in front of my house, I go out and ask them if they need anything. Usually they are thrilled to get a drink of cold water from the hose in the front yard. The hike here, that begins almost at my front door, can be a short family one, a canyoneering trip or a very long and rugged route.

When Bo and I did Mt. Kinesava years ago, there were few homes in that area and we do our best of avoid them. Homes have grown in Springdale along with the number of visitors to the park. Zion is now the 7th most visited park in the US. This is a historic hike, however, and it is listed in many places in its historic form and will always stay that way even though homes have built over the trail. I am sure the park itself likes to keep the masses in Zion Canyon and off the remote routes and so would anyone that knows how to run a business well.

If you read the trail description in question, you know there is only a brief window each year when this hike is even possible. There is only a couple of weeks each year anyone should ever attempt it and some years its not possible at all. If they are going other times they are getting directions and information from other sources and not from the site I maintain. There are many hiking groups on the internet and books that have the historic Mt. Kinesava hike description. The park probably even has it in their historic black book. Also hard-core hikers, outdoor clubs, etc... pass directions to each other via the net and word of mouth.

You must have expected some public to wander your way when you purchased a home on the boundaries of a national park. I know as I get older (I am 50 now) I do like more solitude even with all those kids around, but again I find its locals that are more problematic and I also know around here that the locals do blame the hard-core hikers and I just shake my head at the "good ole boy" talk and thought and wish they understood that hard core hikers CARE for the land! We love it.

Hiking Mt. Kinesava other than the times listed should not be done, at least in my opinion and I would never suggest it:
From the website: "Short season. Summer is too hot, winter and early Spring there is ice and snow on the ramp. In the Fall the days might be too short. Late April to early May is good if all the snow and ice are gone from the ramp."
I too live at the trailhead for a hike, but on the other side of Zion (which I do publish on the site and encourage all to enjoy) and I have found that extreme hikers are the ones that take care of the land and others personal property far more than locals do. In fact, young local adults can cause havoc in the line of having fun and these types of people would not have any interest in such a route. Kinesava is an extreme hike and even if it were possible to do year-round, few would do it. I strongly feel that only those who truly love the land and care for it would attempt to hike something like Kinesava.

Yes, people could hike from Chinle but it's putting their lives in danger. Daylight ends quickly on this rugged hike during the short window each year you can hike it. When Bo and I did it, rushing, we barely made it out on time and I was totally exhausted!!! That extra distance would have had us in danger. I cannot suggest people add that extra time to their hike since this is in no way a summer hike, which is when days are long, but I do ask them to avoid all private property and always respect land owners.

Any mention of your housing area as a trailhead or in any other reference is gone from the site I maintain, but as I said, its out there in many other places in its historic form. If you continue to have problems it cannot be from my website and as I said - and as you can read -we only send them out late April until Early May.

I was contacted by a man, who did the hike recently and suggested you write to me. He said you had a long chat and he enjoyed meeting you. Out of curiosity I will ask him why he did attempt the hike in February.

Sorry this is so long. I am rambling....

Take Care http://mail.yimg.com/a/i/mesg/tsmileys2/01.gif

PS. Bo, my co-author, manages the Desert Rat in St. George. If you are ever in town, stop by and talk with him. You will find him to be kind, honest and willing to work with you.


~tanya

Yeah -- that's a bummer, but I concur with the yahoo groups poster. I'd just mention the location of the historical route and then point people to the Chinle bypass which really doesn't add too much effort to the trip.

- Jamal

PS -- please note that my opinion is part of the California influx which doesn't have a sensibility re: private property according to Paul. :roll:

- Jamal

I am sure you are right. Bo does the routes so will wait and see what he says. I hope my letter helps him understand a bit, but I doubt it. I have dealt with "locals" here and they have such a different way of thinking than I do and they are stubborn. Perhaps its not too long to start at Chinle, but as I remember that was one LONG, HARD day already! :haha:

Quote:

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Its the California, Coloado, Nevada influx that doesn't have a sensibility as to proper conduct on or near private property.

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Tell him that us Colorado guys are only like that because Utah keeps stealing our water, especially if that proposed pipeline comes into fruition. (j/k)

:lol8: I hear the same thing around here about Red Cave. Then I go down there and locals have built a fire and not only left it burning, including one on the hill side in the vegetation, but left their cans and garbage that did not burn in the fire. And that is just one example. I go and get my hair cut and the women gossip about how tourists throw trash out their windows in the GSENM and them, the locals keep it clean, yet I know its the locals throwing their beer cans and trash out while they party. The way the "good ole boys and girls" think is ingrained in them since childhood. It's frustrating and they are stubborn about it to the extreme. It still amazes me after all these years living here how they can be so close minded and judgmental. My own brother is one and a politician at that. That is probably why I come to the internet to talk and avoid the locals. :eek2::mrgreen: Luckily my kids are open minded and have made a big impact on the younger generation here. :clap: --- to some point! Most are still raised by good ole boys, who are our politicians and law makers here.

When I did Cowboy Ridge 2 seasons ago I went and looked at the Bird "Zion Climbing" route description for the approach. The trailhead just off of Rt. 9 at Anasazi Plateau adds more than a mile, but is doable. We ended up parking in the cul'de sac. Last year I hiked West Temple with 2 Zion Rangers. We parked on Rt. 9 at Serendipity Lane. I'm sorry that the landowners are so sensitive to hikers using this approach?! When we did West Temple we walked up the road and then immediately dropped into a wash. We walked in no ones front or back yard. When we were in the wash we could see no housing at all. Hope that some day there is an amicable agreement between landowners and the public wishing to access the park from Serendipity Lane?!

Can you write a new trailhead description for it the way you did it avoided the homes?

I suppose West Temple needs an update too then?

I understand the homeowners viewpoint but the letter they sent you was totally douchebaggish! Maybe they should have approached you in a more amicable manner rather than a very threatening letter...especially since in reality they don't (imo) have any legal recourse to your website/trail description!