the Totem: would like your opinions

For those of you that haven't seen this yet:
http://www.canyonsandcrags.com/servl...rigging/Detail

Now, I've watched the video regarding this device, and seen several things posted on the ACA forums about it, but I find it hard to justify buying this thing. The big push for it is how many different "configurations" it has. The problems that I have are that:
1. You can rig extra friction (Z system) with a standard 8 or ATC
2. You can tie-off a standard 8 or ATC in mid rappel
3. You can stone eight, rig to self-block, etc etc with a regular 8

About the only thing that you can't do with a regular 8 is belay through the slots or "autoblock" belay from the top, problems that can both be solved with different set-ups.

It just seems way more expensive and bulky, so I'm trying to figure out the configurations that really make this thing shine. If you can help me out, I'd love to hear your input. It's certainly a very well thought out and designed rap device, I'm just looking for what makes it so good.

Cheers,
Peter

I've had mine a couple months now and quite like it. Set up a beautiful z-rig for that 300 ft rap into Englestead that kept me slow and smooth.
One thing I noticed. While using it in ATC mode and on an awkward start the device hooked up on the rocks as I slid across them and I didn't realize until the device was a good 10-12 inches away from the carabiner. Weighting it would have pulled it back into place (as long as it wasn't stuck on the rock) while at the same time dropping me those 10-12 inches. Not a huge problem on a bomber anchor but noticing it with legs dangling scared the shit out of me. I was still pretty solid on the rock and just tugged the device back into place. I won't be using it in ATC mode for awkward starts anymore.

I have a totem and like it a lot. The device is a little bit longer than other devices but I certainly wouldn't call it bulky, the weight difference is very minimal.

One thing I like about the totem is the figure 8 part of the device is smaller than others, so it gives you more friction than most figure 8s. I also love using the slots to rappel in stitch plate mode when rappelling toss n' go, it's really smooth and keeps the ropes from twisting above you. It also has a couple of ways you can rig it without disconnecting it from your harness, really nice for floating/wet disconnects.

Instead of using a stone 8, you can rig it so both sides of the rope are contingency anchors, a figure 8 can't do that although there are other ways.

The totem is nice and you can do a lot with it but like anything in canyoneering, there are several way to do things and the totem gives you a couple more.

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Originally Posted by oval

the Totem: would like your opinions

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Canyoneerings version of a swiss army knife???

But than again.... I don't use a swiss army knife or a Totem so I can't say much other than it probably makes a cool clanking sound when you walk.....



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I like my totem. I have had it now for 6 months and have used it in many canyons. It is very versatile. I really like the ease in which I am able to lock off and adjust friction.

Two downsides; it seems to be wearing just as fast as my other favorite rapell device - the piranah, getting grooved pretty fast.
And... enduring all of the "How come your device is bigger than mine?" jokes. :lol8:

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Originally Posted by Don

I didn't realize until the device was a good 10-12 inches away from the carabiner. Weighting it would have pulled it back into place (as long as it wasn't stuck on the rock) while at the same time dropping me those 10-12 inches. Not a huge problem on a bomber anchor but noticing it with legs dangling scared the shit out of me.

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I'm trying to picture that, and realising that were it me, I'd be needing a change of underwear after that.

Yeah, it's nice, but you could do all of those (minus one or two... that you could still do with a biner or two more) with a standard figure 8.

It's a fun video to watch, but I wonder if most people recognize that you can do basically all the same stuff with a normal 8, as opposed to just being dazzled.

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Originally Posted by oval

Yeah, it's nice, but you could do all of those (minus one or two... that you could still do with a biner or two more) with a standard figure 8.

It's a fun video to watch, but I wonder if most people recognize that you can do basically all the same stuff with a normal 8, as opposed to just being dazzled.

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I'm not so interested in having a huge variety of ways to rig my rope.

I AM interested in having a nice, logical, easy to comprehend progression of ways to rig with more or less friction - which is why I love the Pirana.

Tom

"...you don't even need to open the carabiner. A bight of rope goes through one of the slots, then all the way around the eight. That could come in handy if you are going in and out of water. It's very easy to come off..."

I have no experience with flowing water, but this rigging caught my eye because it does look easy and there appears to be less risk of dropping gear.

Can this be done with a Pirana?


Opinions?

How many people have actually lost their rappelling device when doing a floating disconnect?

Also, if it can go on without needing to undo a caribiner, it can come off without undoing a caribiner! Best rig a safety on that thing! :eek1:

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Originally Posted by nonot

How many people have actually lost their rappelling device when doing a floating disconnect?

Also, if it can go on without needing to undo a carabiner, it can come off without undoing a carabiner! Best rig a safety on that thing! :eek1:

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A LOT of people lose gear doing floating disconnects, so this is a valid feature (IMNSHO). The Pirana does that pretty well, but yes, you have to open the carabiner, and it sometimes swims away...

While it seems to have a lot of different rigging modes - which ones offer the correct friction level for my weight and the rope I am using? Those are the only ones I can use...

Tom :moses:

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

Same goes for any of those binerless configurations... cool, sure... but one rope getting caught on the lip of a crack and the whole thing can come undone... way worse than girth-hitching an 8.

I'll pass on that configuration for safety reasons. I'm surprised it's one that's actually "recommended"... screaming "liability" imo.

edit: oops, didn't see Nonot's second line there. Completely agree. :D

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Originally Posted by oval

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

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You may have missed the update picture and written discription adding a saftey biner at the end.

Almost everyone has a favorite device to use. It's important to learn how to rig for differenet friction at the begging, friction on the fly, how to lock off, etc with that device.

The Totem can be rigged several dozen ways for rappelling and rigging. Nobody needs to learn everything it can do. Rig it for rappelling on single strand, double strand, various rope diameters, long rappels, etc. If you have advanced beyond toss 'n go, you'll want to know how to rig a releasable eight, maybe a joker, maybe a stone eight.

So maybe you need to know 8-10 things you can do with the Totem. Beauty of it is that the 8-10 ways you learn can be different than another person's. Whatever works best for you.

It can be rigged with more friction options than a tube, figure eight or Pirana. Friction can be added on the fly easier than with a tube, figure eight or Pirana. It can be locked off mid-rappel easier than a tube, figure eight or Pirana.

It is a better choice for rigging a releasable figure eight on the anchor. Better choice for rigging a stone eight. Plus, it can be rigged in Gi Gi mode for a variety of applications.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Plus, it can be rigged in Gi Gi mode for a variety of applications.

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Pretty amazing marriage of devices, Rich. One end kind of a Trango Magic, the other a figure eight.

I like that plaquette mode for belaying, especially two folks at the same time.

Pretty neat.

-Brian in SLC

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Originally Posted by trackrunner

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Originally Posted by oval

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

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You may have missed the update picture and written discription adding a saftey biner at the end.

Almost everyone has a favorite device to use. It's important to learn how to rig for differenet friction at the begging, friction on the fly, how to lock off, etc with that device.

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Well if you add a biner, you don't have any advantage over any other rap device that requires you to disconnect a biner before you are off the rope... sort of lose the point of the whole thing in the first place if you are locking a safety biner on it then, right?

Each to there own I suppose... even though Rich has posted all of the "modes" it can be used in, a regular 8 can accomplish all of them aside from the plaquette mode (which can be solved a number of other ways)...

...which reminds me, has anyone actually rigged it in plaquette/autoblock mode? The slots are way shorter than a GiGi, so I'm wondering what rope feed is like on various diameters of rope... a 10 to 8mm would be the most interesting to know.

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Originally Posted by oval

Well if you add a biner, you don't have any advantage over any other rap device that requires you to disconnect a biner before you are off the rope... sort of lose the point of the whole thing in the first place if you are locking a safety biner on it then, right?

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Shaun was referring to using a safety biner when rigged in stop 'n go. No safety biner necessary when rigged in the other mode mentioned.

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Originally Posted by oval

Each to there own I suppose... even though Rich has posted all of the "modes" it can be used in, a regular 8 can accomplish all of them aside from the plaquette mode (which can be solved a number of other ways)...

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I didn't post all of the modes. Not even close. A regular 8 can accomplish all of them? Not even close.

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Originally Posted by oval

...which reminds me, has anyone actually rigged it in plaquette/autoblock mode? The slots are way shorter than a GiGi, so I'm wondering what rope feed is like on various diameters of rope... a 10 to 8mm would be the most interesting to know.

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Way shorter? Not really. The slots were shorter on one generation of prototypes. Settled on current slot length because it works very well with ropes from 8mm to 10.5mm.

Sounds like you made up your mind not to buy a Totem even before your first post. No worries. If everyone had the same opinion about everything, we wouldn't need so much variety -- ATC, ATC XP, ATC Guide, figure eight, Pirana, rappel rack, etc. It's all good.

There has been a substantial demand for the Totem. Enough that it will soon be available through retailers.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

No safety biner necessary when rigged in the other mode mentioned.

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Which mode are you referring to here... "Slot mode"? Taken from the canyoneering.net site:

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Slot Rig
The Totem can be rigged for rappelling without taking it off the carabiner. In fact, without even opening the carabiner. Pass a bight of rope through one of the slots then over the top of the Totem. Thanks to Steve Morga for this one.

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Feel free to correct me, but I still see a safety issue here. If the rope gets un-hitched over the big end/eight side that it is looped over, back out the slot it goes and you are disconnected. Considering one poster already had his Totem catch a lip on Englestead in plate mode, I'd say this can happen just like girth-hitching an 8 can happen... the difference is that you are in free-fall if this happens.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

I didn't post all of the modes. Not even close. A regular 8 can accomplish all of them? Not even close.

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Oh I know, I'm just talking about the ones that you did list out, they can all be done with all the ones you mention. Any belay rap device that has 5 appertures would have how many total combinations? 5^5? Not really essential canyoning, though. The ones you listed in this thread are the main ones, and an 8 can do them all.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Way shorter? Not really. The slots were shorter on one generation of prototypes. Settled on current slot length because it works very well with ropes from 8mm to 10.5mm.

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Yeah, way shorter. Here's my point:
You can have an ATC guide or a petzel reverso in autoblock mode... their slots are the normal "belay plate" length because they are tube devices. The problem with the GIGI is that because the slots are long to allow autoblock/plaquette mode belaying, but they insist that you not belay with a GIGI in plate mode because the slots are too long. So either: tube device with short slots, or plate device with long slots. The totem is a plate device with short slots... yes, way short; ie. belay plate length, not GIGI length. When you look at the picture in this link http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...?t=2500&page=3 it really is hard to imagine how this thing could possibly feed in autoblock/plaquette mode since the rope is wedged so tightly with no longitudinal play, hence my question. Still waiting for someone who's tried belaying 2 seconds up, or just one for that matter, and how well it feeds.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

Sounds like you made up your mind not to buy a Totem even before your first post. No worries. If everyone had the same opinion about everything, we wouldn't need so much variety -- ATC, ATC XP, ATC Guide, figure eight, Pirana, rappel rack, etc. It's all good.

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I was genuinely interested, but honestly, it's pretty obvious to me at this point that I can lock of a normal 8 with ease, set up a stone 8, ascend, set up Z-friction. While it may be fun to contort the rope in some new way through the totem, imo it is just extra fluff. I haven't seen any "modes" that are unique to the Totem that are must haves, or even any unique must-have-niche-scenario modes that I cant have with a normal figure 8.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

There has been a substantial demand for the Totem. Enough that it will soon be available through retailers.

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That's good, I hope you are 3 sigma testing it, though. And not just in a length-wise pull, but also for the "trolley method" torques that you show at the bottom of this page: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...?t=2500&page=3.

I'm glad that other people like it and it's selling. The key is having something that you like that works for you. Obviously enough people like it, it's just not for me.

Those still playing along at home might find this video helpful....

And this....

Totem $40
BD Super 8 (figure 8) $15
BD ATC $18
BD ATC-XP $22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFidtjRrqLg

Oval,

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums where there are many people who have actually used the Totem and would be happy to share their opinions.

Of course it is true that you can accomplish many things with a simple $9.95 figure eight. So why do people spend $34.95 for a Pirana? After all, it is just a funny-shaped figure eight. They do because the Pirana allows them to do some of the things that a regular figure eight will do more efficiently or effectively. Same is true with the Totem.

You can rig a releasable figure eight block with a $9.95 figure eight or a $34.95 Pirana. But you can do it better with a Totem. No need to worry about that twist, which is the correct direction for the twist, etc. Releasable rig with the Totem virtually eliminates any chance of it binding. If you've never rigged a releasable figure eight and had it bind on you, it is unlikely you will be able to perceive that value. Cool. Stick with your $9.95 figure eight.

Many similar examples of the Totem doing the same things you can do with a figure eight or GiGi -- but doing them all much more efficiently and effectively -- and several things that you cannot do with either a figure eight or a GiGi. You will never know from looking at photos. Stop by my shop in Cedar City someday and I'll let you play around with one.