Writing Beta

Printable View

07-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Iceaxe

Writing Beta

Just a heads up.... be careful using time when writing a route description. I used some beta this past weekend and it had some problems...

A little background... the person who shared the beta with me is a very strong hiker.... and I was canyoneering with my wife who is not a speedster....

The beta said hike 30 minutes to a side drainage, we hit the side drainage in less than 9 minutes (1/4 mile actual distance), decided that was the wrong drainage and hiked anther 15 minutes up canyon before realizing it was the correct drainage. That cost us 30 minutes total.

Next instruction said hike 10 minutes to a side drainage, we walked 2 minutes and 18 seconds to the drainage (250 yards actual distance). But this time I was aware that the times were bogus and guessed correctly we had hit the correct waypoint.

The beta had two other bad errors, one said hike 2 minutes (25 yards actual distance) which was actually 15 seconds. Next was hike 3 minutes (30 yards actual distance) which was 20 seconds.

Anyhoo..... be care using time unless you actually time it. I've notice when people guess at time they are usually way off.... much better to guess at distance, most people are pretty good at estimating distance.

Just thought I'd share that little tip with you....

:cool2:
07-06-2009, 03:43 PM
oldno7

Re: Writing Beta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Just a heads up.... be careful using time when writing a route description. I used some beta this past weekend and it had some problems...

A little background... the person who shared the beta with me is a very strong hiker.... and I was canyoneering with my wife who is not a speedster....

The beta said hike 30 minutes to a side drainage, we hit the side drainage in less than 9 minutes (1/4 mile actual distance), decided that was the wrong drainage and hiked anther 15 minutes up canyon before realizing it was the correct drainage. That cost us 30 minutes total.

Next instruction said hike 10 minutes to a side drainage, we walked 2 minutes and 18 seconds to the drainage (250 yards actual distance). But this time I was aware that the times were bogus and guessed correctly we had hit the correct waypoint.

The beta had two other bad errors, one said hike 2 minutes (25 yards actual distance) which was actually 15 seconds. Next was hike 3 minutes (30 yards actual distance) which was 20 seconds.

Anyhoo..... be care using time unless you actually time it. I've notice when people guess at time they are usually way off.... much better to guess at distance, most people are pretty good at estimating distance.

Just thought I'd share that little tip with you....

:cool2:

From my house it's 57 minutes to the parking at Hidden star, then 23 1/2 min. to first rap. After first rap, go downcanyon 48seconds, rap, then hike through the potholes for 26 min. Defeat keeper, 3min. 17 sec. hike 2 min. 46 sec to final rap. climb up completely overgrown boulderfield 33min. retrieve rope. 12 min. hike to awaiting beer..........22min.

You beta guys just want everyone to think this is precise work...shucks--it ain't nuthin'
07-06-2009, 05:08 PM
Iceaxe

57 minutes... do you drive fast or slow? Dry roads or muddy?
23 1/2 minutes to first rap... are you a strong hiker or weak?

Distance is a constant.... 3 miles is always three miles.... rain, wind or snow.... up hill or down.... walking or driving... day or night...

Thanks for helping me point out the flaws of using a variable as a unit of measure....

:rockon:
07-06-2009, 05:37 PM
oldno7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

57 minutes... do you drive fast or slow? Dry roads or muddy?
23 1/2 minutes to first rap... are you a strong hiker or weak?

Distance is a constant.... 3 miles is always three miles.... rain, wind or snow.... up hill or down.... walking or driving... day or night...

Thanks for helping me point out the flaws of using a variable as a unit of measure....

:rockon:

I drive really "consistant", I hike somewhat "consistant", I consistantly drive on dry and muddy roads.

3 miles is NOT always 3 miles.... Theres, "as the crow flies", 3 miles straight up, 3 miles straight down, 3 level snow miles is considerably more than 3 level dry miles. A topo map can not tell you if you've hiked 3 miles(unless it's devoid of terrain), 3 miles hiking into a canyon is short--3 miles hiking out of a canyon after a long day is long----etc. etc.
07-06-2009, 06:30 PM
oldno7

I just measured the distance from the Zion Lodge to Lady Mountain------

a mere .55mile. That's it... a little more than 1/2 a mile.

So by using the ultimate indicator(mileage) we should be able to do the Lady Mountain hike in around 10 min. Ahhh yes, the beauty of using mileage. :haha:
07-06-2009, 07:23 PM
jman

i agree with shane. I've had problems on reaching certain destinations using time (on geocaches websites). For example, I never hiked to Adam's Cabin at Adams Canyon (Layton, UT) and according to the page the guy said the cabin was a 3 1/2 hr hike - one way. I reached it under 2 1/2 hrs (although I'm a "strong" or fast hiker). I prefer mileage.

You bring up "as the crow flies". A smart hiker knows this and takes in account for it, and at least carries a map too (although you say you "can't", I can do it or any other smart hiker can get a pretty precise mileage on a topo - I can show you how if you want).

my 2 cents.
07-07-2009, 06:18 AM
Bo_Beck

I agree with both Shane and Kurt, but I also would like to point out that I have heard complaints about both time and distance. My thought is to also include landmarks whether topographical, geologic or artificial.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/697149...tain_wingsuit/
07-07-2009, 12:21 PM
Iceaxe

Shucks... looks like some have got their apples and oranges confused again.....

If I tell you to drive for three miles that is a constant, If I tell you to hike for 3 miles, that is a constant.... and the amount of time it takes to do that becomes a variable....

But if I tell you to drive for 1 hour or hike for 1 hour than the distance becomes the variable...

Driving and hiking are not as the crow flies... the instructions are specific... drive-hike....

As for 3 miles straight up I guess we'll all have to rewrite our beta when the new canyoneering hoover boots hit the market...... :haha:

I do agree with Bo that landmarks are the needed.... this all started when I was told to hike for 30 minutes to a side drainage and reached the side drainage in less than 9 minutes.... I could see anther drainage around the next bend and figured that fit the description better.... so we marched on.... parched... in the blazing sun... for anther 30 minutes....

Part of the problem was the beta I was using was poorly written.... and poor beta is poor beta.... garbage in equals garbage out.... the beta would have been about as useful if the measurements were given in parsec's....

Anyhoo..... that's my take on this after writing hundreds of route descriptions and hearing feedback from thousands of users.... your mileage may vary....

:cool2:
07-07-2009, 05:54 PM
Bo_Beck

When I was in the military, we measured distance travelled by paces. Every left foot that struck the ground was one pace. We would count to one hundred and tie a knot on a para-cord strung on our pack. One pace was Mais o menos 5.5 feet?!~.. i.e...one knot was ~550'. Ten knots were 5500' or the equivelent of one mile. Last I checked...one mile was around 5280'? Must be getting close? Now..to convert to metric...subtract 5' for every pace...so now one pace is only 1.90M~. or a bit less per pace. Lets see? 1 mile is 1.6 (kilometers)...WOW I'm lost! Just do the math damnit! Hell..If we would convert to metric all our problems would be solved! No really....distance is sort of like a feeling you'll get. Time on the other hand...depends what you are up to?! One mile can feel like a million, one hour can feel like all day, but an arch or rock that looks like an "opening" or a "depends on how fast you hike" would be a requisite!
07-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Iceaxe

Or we can all just pack a GPS and use waypoints in our beta.... hard to beat plus or minus 3-feet. :2thumbs:

So now we can bitch about UTM or Hours, minutes, seconds....

:bootyshake:
07-07-2009, 07:37 PM
Iceaxe

More beta advice for up-and-coming canyoneers.....

If you are just getting into the sport it will not be to long before you do a route that is off the radar.... and if you do.... write up a route description to the best of your abilities when you are finished..... I've never met a canyoneer yet, who was worth his salt, that didn't have at least a couple off the radar routes stashed away to be used as trading fodder.... Many canyoneers will trade their mother for a fun new route....

:rockon:
07-07-2009, 10:10 PM
Ryebrye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

[i].. Many canyoneers will trade their mother for a fun new route....
:rockon:

Or pay money to be someone's friend?

:roflol: :roflol: :haha:

:five:

(if you couldn't tell by the number of smileys, I meant this comment in good fun) :2thumbs:
07-08-2009, 08:01 AM
Iceaxe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryebrye

Or pay money to be someone's friend?

Or hang a pork chop around your neck so dogs will like you..... whatever works....

:five:
07-10-2009, 12:50 PM
Bo_Beck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Or we can all just pack a GPS and use waypoints in our beta.... hard to beat plus or minus 3-feet. :2thumbs:

So now we can bitch about UTM or Hours, minutes, seconds....

:bootyshake:

Degrees, minutes and seconds?!