Printable View
A number of trip reports on this forum have raised some discussion on the coloradocaves.org forum about trip report etiquette. One person had a concern about posting names and photographs of well-decorated caves on trip reports. His argument was that it was an advertisement for cave vandals. The topic is on the agenda for discussion by elite cavers at tonight
:lol8: :roflol:Quote:
Originally Posted by CaverMC
See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaverMC
If you don't want people to go there, don't make a trip report. Unless you own the cave, you (the "elite" cavers) have no place telling anyone they can't go there. I hate all the elitist bullshit, "I'm a better steward of the land/cave/dungpile than anyone else so I decide who should be allowed access" blah blah blah.
If you
Oh Gee, all this over little ole' me?
It's funny I've been caving less then a year and I've already got everyones eyes on me.
Things need to change!
Vandals are most likely people who have spite for the "elite" cavers if you ask me. Why else would anyone want to do harm to something so beautiful???
Just read the story behind caves are for all and I would bet you don't have a hard time imagining what I'm getting at!
F*** the Eliteist caving community right up their paranoid A$$, they are the people causing the problem.
I bet you no vandal will be able to get to where I went this weekend.
BTW I find it pretty amazing how much shit is broken in these secret caves that everyone is so worried about. Hippocrits.
I wish there was something like mountainproject.com for caving, maybe soon... An open community of cavers sharing information.
It's funny, look at climbing and canyoneering, there is an ethical standard that is held, and there is no need for secret societys. I guess cavers are too closely related to the cave man to understand such principles.
what makes someone an "elite caver"? is it the ability to say "I can get in but you can't." "i know where it is, and i'm not going to tell you?, or, "i think i'm just better than you".
1.YesQuote:
Originally Posted by denaliguide
2.No
3.Yes
We all have "secret" places. Usually those places are free for all to find on their own.
I'm not a big caver, but I do have a small problem with people locking me out of public areas in the name of safety.
You guys took the elitist caver thing too far! That wasn't the point of my discussion. That's just how it is here in Colorado. There is a large group of cavers in Colorado who have been caving for a long time and so they get a superiority complex over any new caver. It makes it hard for someone who is just getting started in caving.
So what about the trip reports? I'm talking about one's that do not give a location. Is there a problem posting pictures of well-decorated caves? What about entrances to caves (giving a clue to its location)? What about the pictures leading to someone being interested in caving..... or rock collecting. Maybe someone will see the picture and want one of the cave decorations, and then go to other caves to find them.
Elite cavers :lol8: I really have nothing to add to this discussion except to say that I have enjoyed the TR's and photos yet come to think of it I don't have an idea where these places are. I would love to get into this sport but I kinda got my answer when I was visiting Lehman Caves and went on the tour. I quickly realized we were only seeing a part of that beautiful cave complex. I asked a ranger how I could see the rest. She asked if I rappel. "Do I rappel?" I said grinning ear to ear. "Hey I am a canyoneer" I told her. She asked if I had ever been to Zion. I informed her many, many times. She immediately said that if I wanted to volunteer to help with their "scientific" research I could go with them and collect samples and see the rest of the cave. I looked at my wife who gave me "the look" which told me that no way in you know were was I going to take up a new hobby in addition to canyoneering etc. etc. I thanked the nice ranger and, well, left. I like my wife.
Point is, like all sports there are those who don't want you (newbies) around and there are those who are happy, even excited to get you into the sport if you want to. Eliteist vs. Regular guys?? I don't know. I like the regular guys who are happy to share. Again, thanks for the TR's.
Signed,
A Canyoneer who enjoys reading the TR's and seeing these amazing photos of great places.
Good point about vandals doing things in spite of elite cavers. I could see that being a real possibility. Another good point about vandals being able to get to the caves. And the hippocrits... I hate seeing Groaning, a gated cave, it is tracked up more than some of the other caves I've seen. I don't know about cavers being closely related to the cave man.... what are you trying to say that climbers and canyoneers are... what... smart? :haha:
I for one think that the Good old boys club that happens to come with every single grotto out there is what causes the "Elitist" mentality. Where if you are not willing to bow down and go to a meeting every month and go on X number of service projects you don't get to see the inside of a Cave.
Sorry its public lands and should stay public. not the domain of the good old boys clubs that are the Grottos
please see http://cavesr4all.com/index.html
in the late 70's and early 80's i made several tripa into groaning cave. its the largest cave in colorado. i was not a member of any grotto, nor did i have any intention of joining. i was granted access to the combonation to the gate at the entrance at least 5 or 6 times. all i had to do is fill out a 3 page application, listing my experience and equipment i possessed and promise my firstborn male child. alright, maybe not my firstborn male child. i wonder if things are still the same and a non member can get access.
so, since i wasn't a member and got the combo, am i an elite elitest?
bring on the trip reports. more pics, more better.
and those that know me, know that i am not stingy with my info via pm, at least oncde i get to know you.
I can't control what other people do, can only control what I do. So if I contribute to a cave's destruction it's on me. We alter the ecosystem the minute you step into it. So all cavers are responsible, in my mind, for how much impact they have. I think that "cavers" are the main ones responsible for degradation I see. Not the boy scouts, not the flashlight teenage cavers, but the so called "elite cavers".
Sure I post pictures. I won't post names and locations. For those who do, that's ok. If someone has the drive to find the cave and go in it, then that is what they do.
Having said that---this is something I posted on another site. I stand by my words.
Quote=
Cross country hiking, three caves and a treat overlooking Lake Roosevelt on the return. Lots of critters and a few flowers. On my soapbox for a moment---
Cave conservation--- no matter what flavor caver you are people need to pay attention and exact care for some of the caves they visit. We went to a cave that many years ago, after a short crawlway, a big room with white flowstone, orange flowstone and a formation that looked like little white golf balls in a cluster. The cave was sealed in between visitations with natural means to control the amount of silt and debris from running water. Lately people have left it open. Now the big room has massive mud in it, no more white or orange flowstone, a little up high, and the golf balls are slimy brown. To top it off muddy bootprints climbing what remains of the pristine orange flowstone when the main passage is obvious and not on that flowstone. So we spent four hours constructing a sieve in a narrow part of the passage to control flow and then constructed a second barrier to discourage visitors. Gating or not gating the cave isn't the problem. If you don't know what the F&&*(((k you are doing stay out. Ignorance isn't acceptable.
End of rant.
It seems that no one has a problem with them even with the name and pictures of well decorated caves. It's not like I give directions, anyone can do the footwork I do to find these. If they really think it's worth it then let them. It's a free country right? There needs to be a means for the non grotto member cavers. If it gains enough interest then maybe it's the direction it's going to head anyway, we just need to be ready to deal with that.
Ask anyone how they would get into climbing, then ask them how you would get into caving...
Can you predict the outcome?
Mine would have been you go to REI or some mountain shop and get books and talk to sales people to get into climbing, maybe take a class through a club if you can't teach yourself through books.
Try mountainproject.com and talk to people, or look at routes you might like if you climbed, meet people to show you the ropes there.
As for caving I would have no idea where to start except a few (fulford, spring and hubbard are pretty extensively documented on the net but that's about the only ones) can be found on the net or you can join a club and hope for the best, possibly waiting years to be declined information.
What sounds more promising to someone looking to get into the sport?
These people need to re think their processes. I've been in 13 caves and they still think there is a possibility I'm going to lug a sledge or can of spray paint in with me? HA!
Like I would be documenting incriminating evidence (proof I was at the location of vandalizm at this date and time) in a public place if I was vandalizing.
BTW on the train of worrying about rock collectors...
My best caving partner Nathan is a very experienced gem collector. I was worried about it at first before I took him with me on a cave, but we had a talk and an understanding. Caves are like national treasures and you cannot take anything from them even if it's broken and on the ground. Everything should be left as you found it as much as is possible so future generations may enjoy it as you have. I have never worried about it since, Nate is super careful warning others of fragile things to keep them safe and preserved!
I think it would be great to have signage explaining the ethical standard and why it is that way aswell as the laws! considering only a 1/4 or less are possible to find on the net then it shouldn't take too much resources to do this if there are around 800 caves in the state that means you only have to do 200 or less . You could get volunteers by giving out info to a certain cave in exchange for a donation for supplies (for the signs) and the community service of installing said signage at said cave(obviously this bribe would only work for the around 600 caves that aren't documented or findable on the net).
This show me mentality just kills me. I belong to a grotto. They showed me a lot of basic information and helped me get into a cave without hurting myself or the cave. Now I go with my boyfriend who has been a caver for about 25 years. He thinks the NSS is BS and most grottos are ego trips for egocentric people.
No one showed him caves. He studied maps, geology, talked to ranchers and older cavers. He has found caves, found more leads as a push caver on known caves, walked many many limestone ridgelines.
Grottos can do a good job and be very helpful. Not for everyone. Plastering stuff on the internet opens it to anyone and everyone. I think making it a little harder to get to something good might improve the chances that the person who gets there will care enough to take care of it. It's not the caring caver that will hurt the cave. It's the next person who tells the next person who tells whomever. Control is lost. I include the gottos in this.
Education is good.
I think for some places, secrecy and walking away is better.
Ask yourself, if you are in a new pristine cave and you see an incredible formation across a room. The floor is pure white crystal lined with small formations and pools of water. What would you do??? Scar the cave or walk away. Think--- I'll just do this once then never go back. Then later, you talk to someone about it, this incredible experience. They press you , you trust them, you make them promise to tell no one else. Then you go back a few weeks later. Across the pristine white glowing floor are footsteps, not even mud, but the floor is broken in places and smeared. And it's everywhere.
How do you feel then. I'm not picking on any one person, this is directed to any and all cavers. I don't have answers to this.
As far as I know, things are still the same. I've been in a few times as an unaffiliated caver. The gate and liabilty waivers are the Forest Service ways of protecting themselves from being sued and from having to perform rescues to the cave. That cave probably sees more traffic than most other caves in the state. Every trip is a polish trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by denaliguide
A great point RedRoxx! How true. Cavers are responsible for a lot of degradation in caves. A lot! Not just visiting a cave but when you get into dig projects and stuff where people are just stacking dirt in caves. I've seen some elite cavers really mess up a cave. And they're worried about non-cavers :roll:Quote:
We alter the ecosystem the minute you step into it. So all cavers are responsible, in my mind, for how much impact they have. I think that "cavers" are the main ones responsible for degradation I see.
Sounds like a place for clean booties and/or a tyvek suit. Take your muddy boots off and put the booties on and check it out. Use flagging to outline a path so people will not stray. There are ways, but like you said, the ecosystem will be altered as soon as you step in.Quote:
Ask yourself, if you are in a new pristine cave and you see an incredible formation across a room. The floor is pure white crystal lined with small formations and pools of water. What would you do???
I think those trip reports are Awesome!! After the last one I had to clean the mud off my boots because I felt like I was there. Personally if it were me though I would post driving directions and GPS coordinates, but to each there own. I respect his decision not to do this and I would respect someone else
I know this thread is nearing a year old but I have to add my thoughts.... Basically I dont see any problem with posting TRs or pictures. Trust me if you want to find a cave you would really be amazed at what the internet can do for you. This is how I got my start in caving. On the other hand there were also good folks like caverdan who more or less reached out. I think we all have an idea in our head as to what the elitest caver looks and acts like. Im sure there is a decent probability all cavers think somebody else is elitest, all the while that person views somebody else as elitest, but not themselves. With that said my image lookes something like this: a person who acts as though they know it all (we all can still learn), believes their skills and knowlege is far superior than others (best excersize humility), acts as though the caves they visit are there own (not until you pay property tax, we all pay tax that goes to public lands so we all have an equal stake), And finally just have a rotten attitude.
My last thought: Elitest cavers are like elitest pilots. All of the previous mentioned is what gets folks killed in the aviation industry (i know). If you view yourself as an elitest than best reevaluate yourself for the safety of others and you.