Canyon Etiquette

Here is something for everyone to chew on!

Picture Pine Creek full of water...

Let's suppose that there are 3 groups of people consisting of 5 people a group. This first group farthest down the canyon is composed of 1 person that has done "done the canyon" before and 4 people that "know how to rappel", and are all ill equipped (no wetsuits, helmets, etc.) and moving very slow. The second group of people is composed of 3 people that have done the canyon, were well equipped and moving at a good speed when allowed. The third group is composed of 2 people that have done the canyon numerous times and 3 people with moderate canyon experience and also well equipped.

At the first rappel group 1 is taking their sweet time making sure everyone inside and outside of the canyon knew the water was cold. Groups 2 & 3 patiently wait at the top of the rappel, exchanging glances and making light conversation. As most of us know the deeper into Pine Creek the colder it gets. Group 1, due to lack of preparation/experience, is even more slow (if one could imagine) than the start as they make their way down the canyon. Thus causing a bottle neck for the other two groups the entire way down the canyon and especially at the last rappel.
What does group 2 and 3 do?
A. Listen to shrieks and yells all the way down the canyon, while patiently waiting for them to finish.
B. Have a foot race with group 1 to the next obstacle to pass them.
C. Ask to pass on group 1's rope and rigging which could be questionable at best.
or
D. _____________ (fill in the blank)


Something else to think about is, if you do pass them are you morally obligated to see them make it through the canyon okay or as you pass do you just ponder Natural Selection and how it could effect group 1?

d. go somewhere else in the first place (where i can have a much, much more genuine wilderness experience) so i don't have to be part of the zion zoo w/ the crowds, crappy camping, permit competition, etc.

or if i were absolutely forced against my will to partake of inner zion again, were refused any means by which to end my life rather than be subject to such indignity, and had this happen - i'd pass them. your b or c, or whatever gets me past. that or suck it up and realize it is my fault for coming to zion in the first place and as patiently as is possible wait for them to finish.

:becca: :becca: :becca:

like on the golf course. ask to play through and get out of their way as fast as possible, never looking back.

they are on their own. as they would have been if your and the third partiy hadn't came along behind them. if darwin slaps them in the face, well thats the way it goes.

how would i have been morally obligated in the first place. since when am i responsible for the actions of fools and foreigners.

having said all this. i would be willing to go perform a rescue at no charge if they did get into trouble and i heard about it.

i'm a firm believer that if you play for more than you can afford to lose, you will learn the game.

I would pass them, and in almost all of the cases I have been in, people seem to be really cool about letting you pass. I often don't like to use other people's ropes if I don't know them. You can tie your rope off and ask the other party to toss it down to you when you are down or many other options. Generally when I run into them at the top of the rap I just strike up a conversation and let them know I want to pass and they usually hang out at the bottom and wait for us to get by.

I was in Pine Creek a few weeks ago on a Saturday. (When friends come from out of town they can't always come on weekdays.)

If I had my choice, I'd never go through Pine Creek on a Saturday... but because I wasn't in Pine Creek that day for a race through the canyon but rather the opportunity to spend a few hours with friends. (When friends come to town we don't go hang out with them at the mall or watch TV with them... we go outdoors. Even busy places like Pine Creek.)

The day we went the situation was very similar to the one you describe. There was an under-equipped boy with his girlfriend (the girl had never rappelled and he was going to teach her in the canyon. I predict a speedy break-up.) There was also a group ahead of them, and a group ahead of them, and so on and so on... besides the star-crossed lovers, passing any of these groups was pointless. The canyon was chock-full of people that day.

The trouble I had that day was not with the bottle-neck ahead of me but with the constantly complaining guy behind me. This reply isn't so much to your question, but to that guy:

:nono: If you don't want to wait around, don't do Pine Creek in the summer on a Saturday. I have no problem with someone "playing through" if they are really going to speed through the canyon...but if you're going to pass me just so you can wait ahead of me in line every time we have to wait for the bottle-necks then you're just cutting in line. Don't do it.

Don't complain about the bottle-necks. Those are inevitable. My advice is to just relax. Realize that you're in Pine Creek on a busy day and enjoy it for what it is. At least you're not at the shopping mall or sitting around watching TV.
:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by mtthwlw

I was in Pine Creek a few weeks ago on a Saturday. (When friends come from out of town they can't always come on weekdays.)


If I had my choice, I'd never go through Pine Creek on a Saturday... but because I wasn't in Pine Creek that day for a race through the canyon but rather the opportunity to spend a few hours with friends. (When friends come to town we don't go hang out with them at the mall or watch TV with them... we go outdoors. Even busy places like Pine Creek.)

The day we went the situation was very similar to the one you describe. There was an under-equipped boy with his girlfriend (the girl had never rappelled and he was going to teach her in the canyon. I predict a speedy break-up.) There was also a group ahead of them, and a group ahead of them, and so on and so on... besides the star-crossed lovers, passing any of these groups was pointless. The canyon was chock-full of people that day.

The trouble I had that day was not with the bottle-neck ahead of me but with the constantly complaining guy behind me. This reply isn't so much to your question, but to that guy:

:nono: If you don't want to wait around, don't do Pine Creek in the summer on a Saturday. I have no problem with someone "playing through" if they are really going to speed through the canyon...but if you're going to pass me just so you can wait ahead of me in line every time we have to wait for the bottle-necks then you're just cutting in line. Don't do it.

Don't complain about the bottle-necks. Those are inevitable. My advice is to just relax. Realize that you're in Pine Creek on a busy day and enjoy it for what it is. At least you're not at the shopping mall or sitting around watching TV.
:popcorn:

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X2

It's like showing up at Snowbird on a Saturday on the best powder day of the year and there is a tram line around the platform and out onto the plaza.
Then you have to stand there and listen to some guy complain about the line. What did he expect?
In Canyoneering, Pinecreek is Snowbird on a powder day. Pay your money and get in line.

Mark

I always do pine creek in the evening these days an an appetizer canyon. Right now since the days are so long, you can drop into pine creek at 5:30 or 6 and get out in time to go up to keyhole and drop into keyhole right as the sunlight goes away and complete keyhole by headlamps.

Never seen any other person in pine creek or keyhole when I've started it at 5pm.

(of course, now that I post this secret...)

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

I always do pine creek in the evening these days an an appetizer canyon. Right now since the days are so long, you can drop into pine creek at 5:30 or 6 and get out in time to go up to keyhole and drop into keyhole right as the sunlight goes away and complete keyhole by headlamps.

Never seen any other person in pine creek or keyhole when I've started it at 5pm.

(of course, now that I post this secret...)

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Thanks. Your secret is safe with me... and the rest of the Bogley community. (Plan on bottlenecks from now on. :mrgreen: )

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Originally Posted by mtthwlw

If I had my choice, I'd never go through Pine Creek on a Saturday...

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If its a Saturday we usually start Pine Creek about 4 or 5 pm and have the canyon all to our selves.

Want some fun.... show up at the permit window at 6:55pm and ask for a Pine Creek permit for that day.... last time we did that the rangerette spent the next 30 minutes telling us we were going to die.... but we got the permit in the end....

:five:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

If its a Saturday we usually start Pine Creek about 4 or 5 pm and have the canyon all to our selves.

Want some fun.... show up at the permit window at 6:55pm and ask for a Pine Creek permit for that day.... last time we did that the rangerette spent the next 30 minutes telling us we were going to die.... but we got the permit in the end....

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Yep. One time the ranger just kept looking at the clock and looking at us a few times, trying to make a point - but we didn't catch on. Other times, though, the rangers just don't seem to care. It's kind of a crapshoot.

I was worried about picking up the 2 permits for pine creek and keyhole this time at the north entrance (especially considering it was RAINING at the main entrance at the time we picked up the permit, and just started sprinkling at the north entrance) - but the guy at the desk there was the nicest guy I've seen in a long time. He just asked the basic "have you done it before? do you use wet or dry suits..." etc stuff and didn't bother us past that.

The express permit system is awesome for that one reason alone. (Although I really wish that after the lines die down in the morning around 10 or something that they would open up walk-ons that are left to be snagged by express permit system people - would help keep me from ever having to talk to a ranger at the desk)

I bet in the future for express permit people they will implement some kind of timer-based thing so if you try to print the permit after noon or something a random video will come up and bitch at you for 10 to 30 minutes before you are allowed to print it.

I wasn't posting to piss and moan about this situation i found in pine creek because i was well aware of what i was going to probably find down there on a saturday in june. I was more interested in what other people would do in the situation at hand. It really seems the more and more i venture out in the "Zion Zoo" that i keep running into people who have no idea what they are doing. So i was wondering if most people would leave those less experienced/educated people in the dust or try and help them and maybe save search and rescue a trip.

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Originally Posted by snap101

I wasn't posting to piss and moan about this situation i found in pine creek because i was well aware of what i was going to probably find down there on a saturday in june. I was more interested in what other people would do in the situation at hand. It really seems the more and more i venture out in the "Zion Zoo" that i keep running into people who have no idea what they are doing. So i was wondering if most people would leave those less experienced/educated people in the dust or try and help them and maybe save search and rescue a trip.

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Snap101,
I'm sorry I got all preachy about this subject. Like I said, I was venting more about the situation I experienced than the one that you described. I know that these boards turn on people at times.

As a newbie on this site I like the thoughtful questions that people pose on Bogley and I have learned a lot from them. No offense was meant by my reply-- just a general observation about Pine Creek. :blahblah:

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Originally Posted by snap101

I wasn't posting to piss and moan about this situation i found in pine creek because i was well aware of what i was going to probably find down there on a saturday in june. I was more interested in what other people would do in the situation at hand. It really seems the more and more i venture out in the "Zion Zoo" that i keep running into people who have no idea what they are doing. So i was wondering if most people would leave those less experienced/educated people in the dust or try and help them and maybe save search and rescue a trip.

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I think each situation is different. If you can tell that the group has a high possiblity of getting hurt and you could help them get through you probably should. My experience has been most people do not want help.
If I could help someone that I new was in over their heads I would. Or if I was somewhere in over my head and a group came along more experienced I would hope they would offer to give me some help.

Mark

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I think each situation is different. If you can tell that the group has a high possiblity of getting hurt and you could help them get through you probably should. My experience has been most people do not want help.
If I could help someone that I new was in over their heads I would. Or if I was somewhere in over my head and a group came along more experienced I would hope they would offer to give me some help.

Mark

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Thanks, Mark. I hope that I never need your help. :nod:

Yeah, they tend to not want help. You can increase the chances of them accepting your help if you approach it in a non-judgmental and friendly way.

Just start out by saying something like "I don't want to seem like one of those canyoneer know-it-all assholes who tries to tell everyone what to do - but would you mind if I shared with you a few things that might help? Some of it you might already know."

Remember - even if they are making stupid decisions they are most likely still rational people and they are just like you - trying to have fun in a canyon. Once you start telling yourself stories about the people like "Oh, look at these idiots..." or anything along those lines you will probably have a hard time sharing anything worthwhile with them.

There's always a little bit of resentment when you get to a spot in a canyon and you have to wait for another group to finish.

If you remember two key things: 1) You yourself don't know everything there is to know about canyoneering - and are always learning too. 2) They are trying to have fun just like you. 3) They want to learn stuff too.

If it's just a matter of preference or style, and if after offering suggestions they don't want to take them... bite your tongue. Not everyone has to do canyons the way you do canyons in order to survive.

If you notice them using unsafe gear - such as a "not for climbing" 'biner, a hardware store rope, I would point out to them in a polite way that they are using stuff that is increasing their risk of death to a very high point. "It looks to me like you are using a normal hardware store rope. Did it come with anything saying it was rated for a certain load?" Then when they explain that they did in fact buy it at Ace hardware, you tell them "You know, a few years ago they had to rescue some people in Pine Creek because they were using hardware store rope... It's not rated for climbing and it could break at any minute. Just to be safe, why don't you use our ropes..."

Even if you ask as nice as possible, or are as nice as possible, they still might refuse your help.

Now, the scenarios I'm talking about have to do with fining someone in a n00b canyon. If you see someone with hardware store rope and keychain 'biners in Heaps or Imlay, I'd play it differently.

Shane has a story like that on his site: http://climb-utah.com/Zion/germantourists.htm

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Originally Posted by moab mark

I think each situation is different. If you can tell that the group has a high possiblity of getting hurt and you could help them get through you probably should. My experience has been most people do not want help.

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Especially those that really, really need it.

Tom :moses:

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Originally Posted by Ryebrye

Just start out by saying something like "I don't want to seem like one of those canyoneer know-it-all assholes who tries to tell everyone what to do - but would you mind if I shared with you a few things that might help? Some of it you might already know."

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Let me tell you a little story about the know-it-all asshole..... first time I ever climbed Grand Teton I saw this "noob" up near the upper saddle.... this ass clown was dressed in t-shirt, shorts and gym shoes..... so I walk over decked out in my finest mountaineering know-it-all asshole gore-tex clothing to offer the noob some instruction on what real mountaineers wear and what gear they use.... I start to tell the noob he probably doesn't belong on The Grand.....

At that moment this noob in t-shirt and gym shoes turns around and looks at me..... it was Alex Lowe..... who for those that don't know.... Alex was probably my generation's finest all-around mountaineer.

Boy did I fell like a dumbass.....

:asshat:

wow that would really put someone in their place! It seems we run into more idiots in Behunin then any other canyon up in zion. We ran into one group who tied a figure 8 for a biner break on the rap that goes into that pool where the canyons converge and the 8 pulled through mid rap and a scout dressed in gym shorts and vans fell about 20 feet into the water and lost the rope. It was pretty funny looking at their fearless leader who was on top of the rap with no rope and no atc.

Peer Pressure can also lead to problems in canyons. I do not know how many zillion biner blocks I have tied. But had a group looking over my shoulder recently and for the life of me I could not tie a clove hitch. Or you go to a training session and cannot even tie a figure 8 under pressure. So sometimes it may be better to try not to put pressure on groups. The last thing you want to do is have the group ahead trying to hurry because of pressure and then screw up. I know in golf when some group is pressuring our group my golf game sure goes down. Not that I have much of one as it is. :frustrated: