Picking Canyoneering Partners

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Originally Posted by rcwild

People should start using this scenario for screening partners. If they say they would go for help ... look for a different partner.

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At first I took this comment from the Zion Accident thread as Rich being Rich.... but than I gave it some more thought..... How do people pick partners?

I really don't have much of a criteria for picking partners.... My usual method is.... will the person be fun to canyon with and will that persons personality fit in well with the rest of the group.

Outside of that I really don't vet my partners. If I'm doing a route I consider extremely difficult I will try to add at least one young 5.14 rope gun type to the mix but that's about it.

So.... how do you pick your partners? What do you look for?

:popcorn:

I'm new at this so I'm in the 'beg to be allowed to tag along' mode.

More of Rich being Rich ...

People are taking their partner selection way too casually. Meet on the internet and trust everything they tell you about their experience as fact? Only screening questions involve who is bringing the rope and who is bringing the beer? While these are both very important criteria, shouldn't we also be asking questions like:

How are your anchor-building skills?

How are your rigging skills? What are your preferences? Toss 'n go only? Do you use blocks or releasable systems?

Rappelling skills? This one includes a 300-footer. Do you have experience with long rappels? What diameter of rope are we bringing? 8mm?? Do you have experience rapping on skinny rope?

Do you have basic self-rescue skills? Can you lock off mid rappel? Do you know how to rig a footloop to free stuck gear?

How are your rescue skills? First aid skills? Are you brining a first aid kit?

How are your navigation skills? GPS? Map and compass?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Doesn't have to be a formal process, but ask your prospective partners some basic questions to determine if they will be an asset or liability. Even then, you may not know how they will respond in a pinch.

There are lots of "experienced" canyoneers out there who have never been tested. Surprising how many people have been canyoneering for 5, 10, 20 years and never learned how to ascend. Surprising how many "experienced" canyoneers can't rig a simple haul system.

You may have to rely on this person to save your life. Think about the partners you have right now. They're a lot of fun to be with and always buy the beer. But if the caca hits the fan, will they be able to help? Ask the same question of yourself. If your buddy, spouse or child needs you, will you be able to help?

I dragged my friends into the sport. We're beginners together but we're building skills together too.
That military background helped with some of the groundwork; maps and compass. The rest started with books, then Rich and the ACA and we've picked up a few tricks from other canyoneers now too.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I really don't have much of a criteria for picking partners.... My usual method is.... will the person be fun to canyon with and will that persons personality fit in well with the rest of the group.

Outside of that I really don't vet my partners. If I'm doing a route I consider extremely difficult I will try to add at least one young 5.14 rope gun type to the mix but that's about it.

So.... how do you pick your partners? What do you look for?

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Really depends on the gig.

And, even with higher risk type stuff, you really have to focus to mind your own safety (and other's too). Easy to descend into "client mode" (pun intended).

I get complacent. Last year, in france...was a pretty big group of us descending Pissarde. We all had access to the route beta. "For the last 80m waterfall, it is necessary to know multi-pitch abseiling technics, and to minimize rope abrasion".

Of course, no one remembered that when the last drop was rigged and, everyone just went. Of course, we trashed two rope strands and I wonder how close a call we had, really (sharp edge!).

Anyone of us could have said or noticed something, but, last rappel and we musta smelled the barn.

For canyoning I don't worry as much. For climbing, I'm definately picky especially depending on the venue. Much of it is personality: I just don't want to be stuck with someone I don't get along with. But, I go with newbies and folks whose skills I don't know all the time. I just assume they'll sooner or later try to kill me in a wild and new way...

I think canyoning especially is popular because it can be very social.

Its hard to separate wheat from chaff. Folks can either overstate, or, out of being very humble, understate their abilities. Usually can judge a persons abilities after a rappel and/or downclimb or two. But, even that is hard.

And...sometimes you just have to dance with them that brung ya...

-Brian in SLC

Good thread, even though I am a noob at canyoneering, the same principals apply to other aggressive sport I love, rafting. The way I pick partners I go with are as follows:

1. Self reliable - brings his own gear, can wipe his ass on his own and brush his teeth.
2. Good swimmer - Not afraid of swift water, can/has swam rapids, has scuba certs
3. Fun to be with - I have to spend 24 hours with my partners and having a boring, pessimists just spoils the whole trip.
4. Helps around the camp

Those are my primary selection criteria for my rafting trips. The rest I can teach on the go. Canyoneering is a bit different since you have to do a lot of the things on your own with out others help, so I'd toss rappelling skills. Half the criteria Rich listed seems like a person who calls the trip can do on their own.

I always try to follow three simple rules.....

My partner is trying to kill me.
My partner is trying to kill himself.
My partner is trying to kill everyone.

I noticed if you keep those bases covered your odds increase exponentially.....

:2thumbs:

I never have figured out why my partners keep inviting me. Of the regulars I go out with, I am one of the oldest, slowest and worst at down climbing. They have better rope skills and climbing skills than me. I know why I go with them, I have yet to figure out why the want me along. Oh no...... I think I am the "service project!" :eek2:

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Originally Posted by Scott Card

I think I am the "service project!" :eek2:

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lol, better than "emergency rations" :spam:

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Originally Posted by mmac

lol, better than "emergency rations"

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When the Russians would attempt an escape from the Siberian Gulag they would always do it in threes.... the third man was referred to as the sandwich. The deal was.... the first guy to drop would be eaten by the other two..... I've read up on this a little and about 50% of the time the man everyone though would be the sandwich ended up doing the eating.

Which I guess leads to something else I have discovered about canyoneering partners..... looks can be deceiving.... more than once I've teamed up with someone I didn't expect to much from and been impressed by their skill once we were in the slots.

:cool2:

I typically do canyons with somebody with more experienced than me. Although I believe I have the skills to lead, I don't reckon I have the confidence yet. I consider myself an intermediate canyoneer -- I can do most of the basic stuff without a hitch, but I am not confident in ability to lead, so choosing the right partner is important to me.

For somebody of IceAxe's skill level, for example, the issue of choosing a partner can be done somewhat more casually (with respect to fitting in and fun) because there are few problems they cannot figure out on their own. Not so for me.

I need a partner who knows the ropes (pun intended) better than me.

At the same time, it is incumbent on a person of my skill level to learn as much as I can about the ins and outs of this activity. A good lead partner is only as good as his partner if he is unconscious. So from the flip side, I read everything I can about the route, I practice my skills when I can get away from work, and I listen and learn from people more experienced, such as on this site and ask questions when I don't understand a skill or the technique being discussed.

In short, I may not be the most experienced, but I try to make myself a good partner if something happens to the more experienced people in my group, which includes, at a minimum being about to go back up a rope, being able to correctly rig a rope, make an anchor, and double check anchors, harnesses, etc.

I agree with the premise that choosing partners can be done flippantly. If I got down, I want to know I am not dead because my partners don't know what to do.

On that note, and to nitpick, does anybody else other than me carry a complete backup rack? In Kelsey's books, he always says to have at least one person with ascenders, for example. My question whenever I read that is this: what happens when something happens and the person having the equipment I need isn't able to get me the equipment (i.e., ascenders, pullies, secondary belay device, etc.)

My 2c.

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Originally Posted by rcwild

There are lots of "experienced" canyoneers out there who have never been tested. Surprising how many people have been canyoneering for 5, 10, 20 years and never learned how to ascend. Surprising how many "experienced" canyoneers can't rig a simple haul system.

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OK.... I'll take the bait..... this sounds a little like me.... I've been doing canyons for a while. Only twice have I had to ascend a rope that was not a planned part of the trip, nothing major. I've never had to rig a haul system in an emergency, only done it in practice at the comfort of my local crag. Only have one unplanned bivy to my credit and we climbed out the next day, no harm, no foul...... Biggest injury suffered on any of our trips so far are a few blisters.....

But I prefer to think of that as good planning, teamwork and leadership..... flavored with a touch of luck.... just the things I would want in a partner....

Isn't saying you have been "tested" just a nice way of saying you screwed up big time???

Reminds me of the old joke.... Bivouac is French for "We f**ked up".

If I go to my grave never having been tested I'll be happy....

:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Russians
:cool2:

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So that's why you picked me before, I get it now. Why don't I get invites anymore? Don't I taste good? :lol8:

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Originally Posted by Alex

So that's why you picked me before, I get it now. Why don't I get invites anymore? Don't I taste good? :lol8:

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I've been doing a lot of routes with the family lately.... get your wife and lets go do the Black Hole. I think that is next on my families hit list. My kids are bugging me to do that trip.

:2thumbs:

I think you are big enough to feed my entire family.....

:roflol:

I always choose the partner by size

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/imgp2559__medium_.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sombeech

I always choose the partner by size

http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/imgp2559__medium_.jpg

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Are you referring to the size of the carabiner his ATC is connected to? If so, remind me never to go with you. :haha:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rcwild

There are lots of "experienced" canyoneers out there who have never been tested. Surprising how many people have been canyoneering for 5, 10, 20 years and never learned how to ascend. Surprising how many "experienced" canyoneers can't rig a simple haul system.

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OK.... I'll take the bait..... this sounds a little like me.... I've been doing canyons for a while. Only twice have I had to ascend a rope that was not a planned part of the trip, nothing major. I've never had to rig a haul system in an emergency, only done it in practice at the comfort of my local crag. Only have one unplanned bivy to my credit and we climbed out the next day, no harm, no foul...... Biggest injury suffered on any of our trips so far are a few blisters.....

But I prefer to think of that as good planning, teamwork and leadership..... flavored with a touch of luck.... just the things I would want in a partner....

Isn't saying you have been "tested" just a nice way of saying you screwed up big time???

Reminds me of the old joke.... Bivouac is French for "We f**ked up".

If I go to my grave never having been tested I'll be happy....

:popcorn:

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So if Shane has never been "tested" and unless his website is bogus he has hit the majority of the routes in the state. Pretty good track record.

Who has been tested? When have you seriously blown it and had to rescue or bail?

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I've been doing a lot of routes with the family lately....

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Glad to hear that Shane :2thumbs:

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

get your wife and lets go do the Black Hole.

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Hmm Black Hole might be too much for my wife, anything drier on your list? Please let me know, I'd love to join you. I got my wife hooked on rafting, so that's my family outing now, but would love to join you in the canyons.

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Originally Posted by Iceaxe

I think you are big enough to feed my entire family.....

:roflol:

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You, out of all the people, should know that! :haha: :roflol: