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Just a little update.....
I was exchanging some info with Mike Kelsey today and he mentioned that his "Technical Slot Canyon Guide to the Colorado Plateau" 2nd Edition was still at least one year away..... I'm guessing we will not see this eagerly anticipated book until the Spring of 2008.
:popcorn:
yeah i got this sense too. looking forward to the color photos. it should be jam packed with information.
so on the canyons group we were talking about the use of R. i noticed in many of your descriptions you use 3 R. it seems that it's mostly when stemming with varying degrees of exposure is involved. is this how you use it.
If you read my rating description carefully you will note it differs somewhat from the ACA Canyon ratings, this is to accommodate the difficult climbing sometimes encountered is Colorado Plateau Canyon. A canyon with high stemming or requiring advanced climbing skills is a 4. and not usually an R or X...... but they can be a 4R or 4X.
I use the R-Rating as kind of a "plus" system. Some of my friends refer to my R-Rating as..... "it ain't no Pinecreek". Which really means it has something a little extra you are going to have to deal with. I add an R to canyons that require moderate climbing skills with some exposure. I also add an R to canyons with extremely high flashflood potential and canyons that are known to have massive and dangerous logjams appear and disappear. Anything else that ups the ante can also cause an R-Rating.
One advantage Climb-Utah has is that all canyons are rated by the same core group of canyoneers as we feel appropriate. We try not to let other guidebooks or websites influence our judgement, which is why you will sometimes find different ratings from other sources. If a canyon is a 3R on Climb-Utah it will reflect other 3R canyons on the website. We often update and change the ratings on Climb-Utah as conditions change.
I think ratings are the most difficult part of writing a guide. They are very subjective and condition dependant. I believe the X-Rating is tossed around much to freely in the canyoneering community. And I seldom agree with most the X-Rated canyons I hear about. If its hard and requires advanced climbing skills it's a 4, not an X. I think some of the X-Rated stuff is also chest thumping and/or intermediates getting into their first really difficult canyon. As case in point is that many of the X-Rated canyons you first hear about are downgraded after advanced canyoneers complete the route.
Climb-Utah
TECHNICAL CLASSIFICATION
1 - Canyon Hiking: Non-technical, no rope required. Hiking mostly on established routes. Involves some scrambling with the occasional use of hands.
2 - Basic Canyoneering: Scrambling, easy vertical or near vertical climbing and/or down-climbing. Rope recommended for hand lines, belays, lowering packs and possible emergency use. Exit and/or retreat possible without ascending fixed ropes. Scrambling requires the use of hands and arms for pulling yourself up.
3 - Intermediate Canyoneering: Technical canyoneering and climbing. Route may involve any combination of the following: Problem-solving. A basic knowledge of technical climbing. Rope and climbing hardware for single-pitch rappels and belays. Basic pothole escape techniques. Obvious natural anchors. Retreat up canyon will require ascending fixed ropes.
4 - Advanced Canyoneering: In addition to intermediate canyoneering skills, you will require one or more of the following skills: Advanced free climbing. Difficult and/or exposed down-climbing. Climbing using direct aid. Multi-pitch rappels. Complex rope work (i.e. guided rappels, deviations, rebelays). Obscure or indistinct natural anchors. Advanced problem-solving and anchor-building. Advanced pothole escape techniques.
WATER Volume / Current
A - Normally dry or very little water. Dry falls.
B - Normally has water with no current or light current. Still pools. Falls dry or running at a trickle.
C - Normally has water with strong current. Waterfalls.
RISK / SERIOUSNESS
No Rating: Normal risk factors are present on this adventure.
R - Risky: One or more extraordinary risk factors exist that could complicate the descent. Solid technical skills and sound judgment are critical.
X - Extreme: Multiple risk factors exist that will complicate the descent. Errors in technique or judgment will likely result in serious injury or death. Descent should only be attempted by expert canyoneers.
:popcorn:
right, and the R you use for 3s is ENTIRELY different than the R one would use for a 4. this could be problematic as the interpretation in each cases is different. i was thinking the +/- system (as i have seen it used for exposure and risk of fall on ski slopes) would be good and suggested it to mike kelsey, so that folks, especially beginner/intermediates could assess the difficulty of 3 canyons at a glance. but i don't think he thought it was necessaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
since i have joined the internet-canyon community i have only noticed one X rated canyon (PD) get dropped to an R. This was because while the canyon is difficult on the whole, there is only one particular section (crux silo) that was particularly sketchy and warranted the X. Since an alternative route through that particular section was found by members of the original group (who gave it that rating), they decided to downgrade it.Quote:
I believe the X-Rating is tossed around much to freely in the canyoneering community. And I seldom agree with most the X-Rated canyons I hear about. If its hard and requires advanced climbing skills it's a 4, not an X. I think some of the X-Rated stuff is also chest thumping and/or intermediates getting into their first really difficult canyon.
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As case in point is that many of the X-Rated canyons you first hear about are downgraded after advanced canyoneers complete the route.
I am curious what other X rated canyons have been downgraded that you are referring to?
Also, by your restricted use of R and X, could it be that sandthrax may more appropriately be called an 4 R? I have never been in it, but since it's able to be done without aid, and much of the canyon is standard difficult high-stemming? just curious. Also i remember joe wrona referring to it as an advance-intermediate canyon, or something like that?
just trying to get a better handle on the meaning of these ratings.
Yes and no..... depends on why the R is present to begin with. You must read the route description to gain a true understanding of the dangers. A rating is just a rough guideline, actual dangers should be spelled out in route descriptions. A 3 is intermediate canyoneering, a 4 is advanced canyoneering. If the danger is something an advanced canyoneer should be cable of handling there is no risk factor given. An intermediate canyoneer is not capable of detailing with the same risks as an advanced canyoneer. You can not communicate all the difficulties and dangers with 3 or 4 numbers and letters, that is what a route description is for. Many folks make the mistake of thinking that a rating gives all the information.Quote:
the R you use for 3s is ENTIRELY different than the R one would use for a 4
I try not to put X-Rated canyons on my website because it places a bullseye on the canyon and I don't care to be responsible for the problems, injuries and rescues the canyons could create. I do not believe X-rated canyons are suitable for the general public and recreational canyoneer, which is who I try and cater to. Sandthrax is on my website because of many reasons, two being it is easily accessible and very well known. If I put an X-Rating on a canyon that is pretty much my recommendation that you avoid the canyon.Quote:
Also, by your restricted use of R and X, could it be that sandthrax may more appropriately be called an 4 R? I have never been in it, but since it's able to be done without aid, and much of the canyon is standard difficult high-stemming? just curious.
Joe Wrona does a lot of posturing as part of a separate agenda. I like Joe a lot and consider him a friend, but I also take what he posts with a grain of salt. Sandthrax may eventually be downgraded to an R now that a required equipment list is being refined. But it is still not a canyon I would consider suitable for the general public so I'll keep the X-Rating for now.Quote:
Also i remember joe wrona referring to it as an advance-intermediate canyon, or something like that?
Good luck..... everyone rates canyons differently. I consider ratings to be fluid and changing, because the canyons are always changing. As I have said, I think rating routes is the most difficult task required when writing a guide. The only thing I can really promise you is that routes on my site are representative of each other. If I rate a canyon 3, 3R, 4 or 4R it will be comparable to other canyons on my website with the same rating. I make no effert to make sure my ratings correspond other sources. My ratings are my gut feeling.Quote:
just trying to get a better handle on the meaning of these ratings.
I'm always open to additional input on what a specific canyon should be rated. If anyone finds a canyon on my web site that they consider inappropriately rated I'm interested in hear what you think the rating should be and why.
Where do Ratings come from??? :ne_nau:
To give you an idea of my though process when rating a canyon I submit the following...... when we first did Zero-G we gave it a 2R. Because we did it with no rope and advanced hikers could do it. But then I started thinking (with help from my friends) and we decided it should be a 3 so that we would not suck unprepared hikers into the canyon and be the cause of rescues. Then I took a group of beginner/intermediate canyoneers (most were on the rotund side) through and their comment was the 3 did not seem appropriate because of the bombay, their exact words were "it ain't no Pinecreek"...... so the canyon was upgraded to a 3R. Now granted the R does not present itself to all canyoneers, but it is an additional risk factor that should probably be considered.
Over the past few years "The Black Hole" started as a 2B, went to a 3B R with the logjams, and is now a 3B, which might get changed to a 2B or 2B R in the near future.
And to give you anther perspective Tom currently has the Black Hole rated 4B R/X. The ACA has it at 2B R
Just more fuel for the fire.....
not sure what you mean. with how varied canyons are, i would think most people wouldn't assume that ratings tell all. if you mean, that they assume that their skills are sufficient for all canyons associated witht that rating, then this would make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
shouldn't ratings be independent of the audience? if you believed the canyon was an R, i would think that a sharp disclaimer would do more to ward off people than the X rating. then again, i am not saying that the use of X rating is inappropriate, i am just looking for consistency. it doesn't make sense to me to have a private rating system, where R and X are used sparingly, and a public rating system which has a lower threshold. soon enough there will be bands of canyoneers for which R and X rated canyons will be suitable.Quote:
I try not to put X-Rated canyons on my website because it places a bullseye on the canyon and I don't care to be responsible for the problems, injuries and rescues the canyons could create. I do not believe X-rated canyons are suitable for the general public and recreational canyoneer, which is who I try and cater to. Sandthrax is on my website because of many reasons, two being it is easily accessible and very well known. If I put an X-Rating on a canyon that is pretty much my recommendation that you avoid the canyon.Quote:
Also, by your restricted use of R and X, could it be that sandthrax may more appropriately be called an 4 R? I have never been in it, but since it's able to be done without aid, and much of the canyon is standard difficult high-stemming? just curious.
hmm, i expected that you all would have thought of the larger body-framed folks too in this situation in the first place :ne_nau:Quote:
To give you an idea of my though process when rating a canyon I submit the following...... when we first did Zero-G we gave it a 2R. Because we did it with no rope and advanced hikers could do it. But then I started thinking (with help from my friends) and we decided it should be a 3 so that we would not suck unprepared hikers into the canyon and be the cause of rescues. Then I took a group of beginner/intermediate canyoneers (most were on the rotund side) through and their comment was the 3 did not seem appropriate because of the bombay.
ALSO there are even those medium-large framed folks who would rather not risk getting stuck, even though it looks possible to fit.
I only have ONE rating system and I try and rate all canyons consistantly using the same system. I have no control over how others rate canyons.Quote:
i am just looking for consistency. it doesn't make sense to me to have a private rating system, where R and X are used sparingly, and a public rating system which has a lower threshold. soon enough there will be bands of canyoneers for which R and X rated canyons will be suitable.
As I have said, the only thing I can promise is that similiar canyons are rate the same on climb-utah.