Drones and Wildfires

[Sombeech]

OK I'm going to present a point of view that is controversial, but just try to look at it objectively and ask yourself if it's got any merit. First of all, respect to the firefighters, on both ground and sky. Second of all, we all know you shouldn't fly drones near a wildfire because it interferes with the firefighting and rescue operations. And third, no, I've never flown my drone, nor will I ever, near a wildfire.

It won't stop, there will always be somebody flying their drone near a fire, even if the TFR (temporary flight restrictions) are in place, even if they know the rules, we will still see somebody continue to fly a drone in the area.

The average drone flight time is about 25 minutes. Most of these drones that get in the way, if not all of them, will be the smaller, light weight plastic, fragile drone. They won't be the professional grade carrying a few thousand dollars worth of camera gear.

Now that I've made clear my stance against drones flying near fires, I must say that it is horrible to land the firefighting air crew for 6 hours, and let houses burn, because a cheap plastic toy drone was seen within a 3 mile area of the fire, and has landed already within 25 minutes.

We can rant and rave about drones all we want, but it will continue. What must change is the policy to land the crew, to halt firefighting, to let houses and property be destroyed, because of a rumor of a drone in the area. That policy needs to change. These little drones will NOT cause cripling damage to a helicopter or airplane. Birds can cause damage.

If drones were so deadly to these aircraft, then ISIS could ground the whole U.S. Air Force with a few thousand dollars in cheap drones. Could you imagine a Black Hawk helicopter turn back to base because they saw a DJI drone in the area?

That is my rant, your objective disagreements and opinions are welcome.

[Iceaxe]

If drones were so deadly to these aircraft, then ISIS could ground the whole U.S. Air Force with a few thousand dollars in cheap drones.

Actually terrorists using drones is currently at the top of the terror threat watch list as they currently pose a huge security risk. Just thought I'd mention that, carry on....

Experts Say Drones Pose a National Security Threat — and We Aren’t Ready
http://time.com/5295586/drones-threat/

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

I think it's overblown, but at this point if they wanna renege on their previously-established-and-way-too-strict policy it will open the floodgates for more idiots to go fly their stupid toy drones all over hell. As long as they stay firm in their rigid policy then most everyone will respect and comply.

Better to keep the policy in place and look to prosecute the stray idiots then get lenient and risk something stupid happening.

Fighting fires is overblown anyways. They should let every fire just burn itself out on its own -- that way excess fuel doesn't build up year after year. And if a couple dozen homes have to burn up well so be it.

That's the best policy........right?

[Sombeech]

I'm not advocating that they start allowing drones near fires, they should always be prohibited unless directed by the fire crews (which I'm surprised they don't use this tactic more). But I would like to see some training, or some education for the fire crews showing actual damage, if any, that could be done by a drone.

It's mostly the fact they land the aircraft for hours, letting the fire rage on, when they saw a device with 25 minutes of flight time within 3 miles of the fire. Why are they grounding the crew for half a day?

I think they could benefit with demonstrations showing drones colliding with the aircraft, to see what is really at stake, if they really need to be feared so much.

I'd say fly right into the drone and destroy it. That might be a better tactic to discourage more drones.

[powerplay]

Its a different ballgame when you are carrying waterbuckets and tons of retardant 200 feet of the deck across passes and wooded terrain. Little to no time to recover.

You can't control birds. Drones are more like FOD. And anyone with flight hours knows how serious FOD can be for aircraft, especially small to mediums ones. Regular altitude with bigger aircraft is less of a concern. Small to medium aircraft close to the deck are very vulnerable. Though I wouldn't want to be low on a ridge dropping retardant in DC10 and have to defensively deal with drones. They can take the hit but simple mistakes lead to deaths in those circumstances.

And imagine having two helitack crew dropping out of the sides of your craft and seeing a drone flying right at you. No way to communicate. They are affected by the same flight plans as the other aircraft.

Safety protocol are developed to protect lives. Wildfire personnel will always be more important than property. Its a simple choice.

[Sombeech]

Another note, we are hearing a lot about these drone sightings over wildfires, with fire crews being grounded as a result. I think it would be nice if we could confirm these drone sightings. Who are seeing these drones? They aren't seeing the photos posted on social media, that's for sure. We are left with rumors spreading around, nobody knows the source, and we all assume there's some idiot drone pilot flying around. We need to be open to the possibility this is untrue.

Speaking about putting lives in danger, fires are more dangerous and deadly as they get out of control. This is another reason to not ground the crew for half a day because a drone "might" have been spotted. Fight that fire now. Don't let it burn further out of control and put more lives in danger.

[rockgremlin]

Another note, we are hearing a lot about these drone sightings over wildfires, with fire crews being grounded as a result. I think it would be nice if we could confirm these drone sightings. Who are seeing these drones? They aren't seeing the photos posted on social media, that's for sure. We are left with rumors spreading around, nobody knows the source, and we all assume there's some idiot drone pilot flying around. We need to be open to the possibility this is untrue.

Speaking about putting lives in danger, fires are more dangerous and deadly as they get out of control. This is another reason to not ground the crew for half a day because a drone "might" have been spotted. Fight that fire now. Don't let it burn further out of control and put more lives in danger.


One things for sure: The protocols around fighting fire are as complex as Chinese algebra.

Just two days ago I had a conversation with a guy who lives near the airstrip in Huntington, Utah. When the Trail Mountain fire was raging earlier this year, they brought in 5 - 6 helicopters, including two Hueys to assist in fighting the fire. They even shipped in a half dozen high dollar specialist operators from New Zealand. Well as it turns out, the Hueys got off the ground only once, and all the operators sat around for almost the entire duration of the fire with their feet in the air, collecting thousands of dollars a day to do.....nothing. His wife is a stay-at-home mom who made it a point to watch all of the activity all day every day. There was almost zero activity. But the State is gonna go ahead and pay $1,000's for the operators and the usage of the machines for very little return. A few people got paid a sick amount of cash to do nothing while we pay to watch our public lands get torched. The source of the fire was already a black eye for the USFS (controlled burn in June, during an unusually dry drought year), and then this crap happens.

Unbelievable.

[Sombeech]

One things for sure: The protocols around fighting fire are as complex as Chinese algebra.

Just two days ago I had a conversation with a guy who lives near the airstrip in Huntington, Utah. When the Trail Mountain fire was raging earlier this year, they brought in 5 - 6 helicopters, including two Hueys to assist in fighting the fire. They even shipped in a half dozen high dollar specialist operators from New Zealand. Well as it turns out, the Hueys got off the ground only once, and all the operators sat around for almost the entire duration of the fire with their feet in the air, collecting thousands of dollars a day to do.....nothing. His wife is a stay-at-home mom who made it a point to watch all of the activity all day every day. There was almost zero activity. But the State is gonna go ahead and pay $1,000's for the operators and the usage of the machines for very little return. A few people got paid a sick amount of cash to do nothing while we pay to watch our public lands get torched. The source of the fire was already a black eye for the USFS (controlled burn in June, during an unusually dry drought year), and then this crap happens.

Unbelievable.
That is disgusting but not totally surprising.

I'll betcha, at the high operating cost of these aircraft, they use them as their primary scouting device when a $2,000 drone could do the same thing, fly 5 miles out, and launch with 5 minutes of prep time, placing no pilot in danger, and streaming live 1080 HD feedback of the view back to a big 8 foot HD projector in real time, while the whole crew watches and prepares their plan.

But nope, let's take 2 hours of flight prep getting a helicopter ready with 3 people to fly in it, except if somebody sees a plastic bag flying in the wind and mistakes it for a drone, then they cancel the whole operation.

[oldno7]

Beech, I see a definite value there, you just need to sell that value as a coordinated effort that could work in unison with manned aircraft.

Someday I would bet fires are fought completely with drones, it just takes time.

[rockgremlin]

Beech, I see a definite value there, you just need to sell that value as a coordinated effort that could work in unison with manned aircraft.

Someday I would bet fires are fought completely with drones, it just takes time.


X2

Drones really are the only viable option for so many future applications. Once the powers that be see the value in using mobile, accurate, unmanned flight then helicopters will be used only sparingly. They just have to buy it first. Which means there needs to be someone selling it. Maybe that someone is you.

[Sombeech]

Beech, I see a definite value there, you just need to sell that value as a coordinated effort that could work in unison with manned aircraft.

Someday I would bet fires are fought completely with drones, it just takes time.

I've been reaching out to local law enforcement, sheriff departments and fire crews the best I can. I've volunteered my services for free, saying I could be ready to go scout for something very quickly. But the response I always get is "thanks but no thanks we are working on our own program".

So maybe in 5 years they'll have an official hired drone pilot, when drones as we know them today will be obsolete.

[Scott Card]

So maybe in 5 years they'll have an official hired drone pilot, when drones as we know them today will be obsolete. Make that 10 years. Environmental studies, drone affecting mating habits of the Canadian Goose study, etc.

[rockgremlin]

Make that 10 years. Environmental studies, drone affecting mating habits of the Canadian Goose study, etc.


Ding, Ding!!

Bureaucracy always has a 10 year lag time behind technology.

[Sombeech]

Make that 10 years. Environmental studies, drone affecting mating habits of the Canadian Goose study, etc.
But what about my mating habits? Doesn't anybody care about the end user anymore?

[Sombeech]

Do you remember the Seinfeld episode where Kramer comes into the fire chief and has this great map of shortcuts to get to fires faster? And the fire chief just brushes him off like some hot head and they are doing fine just the way they are.

That's what I feel like, I want to try and help and heck, maybe even save a few tens of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in the process.

Never mind that in that episode, Kramer ends up crashing the back of the fire engine, but I digress.

[Sombeech]

https://kutv.com/news/local/pole-creek-fire-police-seek-person-responsible-for-drone-flight-that-grounded-air-support

Wanna hear something wild?

I'm going to make a bold statement and say there never was a drone. Didn't happen.

No details about the drone, other than some unnamed source saw a drone that could have come from Utah or Sanpete County? Gimme a break. This person should be pressed for more info. What did they see? What color was it? How high was it? Which direction was it flying?

Nope, you won't hear any of these details because nobody has the answers. 10 thousand people are mad that a drone was flying over the fire and it never happened.

[rockgremlin]

The possibility that there was a drone is equally as plausible as if there wasn't. Either option is completely unprovable. At this point it's all he said, she said.

[accadacca]

Three firefighters were inside the helicopter around 9:20 a.m. when the pilot noticed the drone flying several feet away, according to EastIdahoNews.com. He was able to take “evasive action and avoid a midair collision,”

Drone nearly crashes into helicopter fighting Idaho firehttps://www.ksl.com/article/46370235/drone-nearly-crashes-into-helicopter-fighting-idaho-fire

[accadacca]

Damn drones...

WASHINGTON COUNTY — A mountain biker on a trail near St. George was flown to the hospital after severely fracturing his leg in a bike crash Saturday. A drone being flown in the area temporarily prevented the responding medical helicopter’s arrival.

Drone temporarily halts Life Flight rescue in southern Utah

https://www.ksl.com/article/46185058/drone-temporarily-halts-life-flight-rescue-in-southern-utah

[Sombeech]

when the pilot noticed the drone flying several feet away

I know nothing about this story background, except for the absolute fact that this is exaggerated in some way.

Imagine, flying a helicopter, and notice a drone SEVERAL FEET AWAY, let's give it a bit of credit and say it was more than several, but 20 feet away. How fast is this pilot's reaction time, to see the drone, only feet away, and have the .0003 second reaction time to maneuver the helicopter away in a different path....

And all the while, no description of the drone (at several feet away you should have a VERY good idea of what it looks like), no report on how high it was, which direction it was flying..... I'm so damned tired of these vague accusations. It's irresponsible.

[Sombeech]

Meanwhile, responders became aware that a BMX rider in the area was flying a drone and called off Life Flight temporarily until they could speak to the man, explaining that the drone was preventing the helicopter from flying into the area or landing.
Damn drones...

WASHINGTON COUNTY — A mountain biker on a trail near St. George was flown to the hospital after severely fracturing his leg in a bike crash Saturday. A drone being flown in the area temporarily prevented the responding medical helicopter’s arrival.

Drone temporarily halts Life Flight rescue in southern Utah

https://www.ksl.com/article/46185058/drone-temporarily-halts-life-flight-rescue-in-southern-utah

Now this one sucks, but imagine flying your drone, you don't know if a TFR has been issued because you're already in the air. You have no idea that life flight is coming in. You might see the helicopter, but you only need to give way to the manned aircraft. You aren't expected to land your drone if you hear a helicopter 2 miles away.

Even if the drone realizes there's a helicopter, and lands as fast as he can, what else can be done?

I still say that helicopter pilots need some live demonstrations of what drones can't do to bring them down. Otherwise we are going to see more of this garbage, absolutely senseless halting of life saving operations, because people think these cheap plastic parts are going to crash these metal aircraft. Holy shit, people.

[accadacca]

Lol...more to come. Haters gonna hate.

[Sombeech]

Mahinaedinajar Ahjckbar just called in there was a drone sighting somewhere over Afghanistan. All US Air Force crew are to be grounded for unknown periods of time.

Better be safe.

[jman]

Not a conclusive presentation, as it is just one of many to come I’m sure, but it does give one insight to planes vs drones.

Have You Seen This? What happens when a drone hits an airplane https://www.ksl.com/article/46404143/have-you-seen-this-what-happens-when-a-drone-hits-an-airplane




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sombeech]

Not a conclusive presentation, as it is just one of many to come I’m sure, but it does give one insight to planes vs drones.

Have You Seen This? What happens when a drone hits an airplane https://www.ksl.com/article/46404143/have-you-seen-this-what-happens-when-a-drone-hits-an-airplane


Yeah I got that from about 30 people :haha:

I'd like to see the footage where they tried and tried and said, well crap that didn't do hardly anything, let's try a different part of the airplane.

FYI, here's what birds will do, without lining it up in a lab, trying over and over again until it causes significant damage. Try Googling "Airplane Bird Damage" and see what comes up, or just click this link:
https://www.google.com/search?q=airplane+bird+damage&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6vuiGhf_dAhVV_oMKHX0YCtMQ_AUIDigB&biw=1680&bih=908

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/a19737321761ea138af527e87334e2a0

[accadacca]

HBO LITERALLY SHOOTING DOWN DRONES TO PREVENT GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8 SPOILERS

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/hbo-literally-shooting-down-drones-to-prevent-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers?__source=Blastr_Vayner_syfy_Facebook&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=hbodronespreventgotleaks&utm_term=paid&utm_content=link_ad

[Sombeech]

HBO LITERALLY SHOOTING DOWN DRONES TO PREVENT GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8 SPOILERS

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/hbo-literally-shooting-down-drones-to-prevent-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers?__source=Blastr_Vayner_syfy_Facebook&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=hbodronespreventgotleaks&utm_term=paid&utm_content=link_ad

If only the fire department had enough money to use these tools.... This goes to show how much the entertainment business can get away with. They created No Fly zones for even airplane and helicopter near the sets. That's just a crazy amount of control right there.

The entertainment business is powerful enough to bypass federal laws and influence the raid and arrest of servers like Pirate Bay for allowing downloads of media, when it's not hosted inside the United States. And we just go ahead and allow it because it helps the movie and music industry get more money.