Moab being loved to death....

[Iceaxe]

So I received the following email today, I have some opinions but I thought I'd see what you guys thought of this first.... enjoy the read.... post your thoughts....

Millcreek Canyon is being overrun with tourists. Day after day anywhere from 100-1000 people or more are going into this fragile ecosystem and are creating major negative impacts on it. Your site and others on the internet are doing a great disservice to this canyon, its being loved to death. Not only is it being overrun throughout the year but so is the neighborhood below it. Powerhouse lane is a dead end road, everyday hundreds of cars go up this dead end road to a 33 space parking lot. When full they park illegally along the road ignoring all no parking signs creating a hazardous problem, then they come and park in front of the homes in the neighborhood and illegally on the private property down the street. I have had people park in my driveway and have found people on my front porch seeking shade thinking no one lives there, someone does. You may not be willing to remove Millcreek canyon from your website but if you did it would be greatly appreciated by the residents of Moab who love this canyon and are heartbroken to see whats happened to it. If you aren't willing the least you can do is inform people that they should not park in the neighborhood below nor on the private property and that if the parking lot is full they should come back another time to visit. Moab is being overrun and any help we can get to lessen the blows from tourism is appreciated. Our community is being destroyed by out of control tourism.

Thank you
Kiley Miller
Moab Utah

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

As a one time resident of Moab who lived just two blocks from Powerhouse Lane, I can definitely sympathize with this poor lady. It's out of control. Especially during peak times like Spring break, Jeep Safari, etc. The tourism is so bad that many of the locals make plans to leave town during those times. (We frequently planned trips to SLC during Jeep Safari just to get the hell out of town and away from the ceaseless throbbing hoards of tourists).

It really is that bad.

Not saying you will (or should), but if it was my website I'd get rid of the Mill Creek swimming hole altogether. Tourists don't need to be spoon fed every last morsel until there's nothing left.

Just my $0.02...

[devo_stevo]

It's a bit of a double edged sword. Without the tourism, Moab would shrink to maybe 20% of it's current size. With all the people coming, they get to keep their jobs, and their nice community, and all the restaurants, and stuff, but they are going to have to deal with overcrowding and, yes, environmental destruction, as a result.

I'm not sure how to fix it. I first went to Moab in 1993 to go mountain biking. It was a little crowded on Slickrock, but it was easy enough to find some solitude on plenty of other trails. Now, it's a freaking circus on almost every trail. Lots of people. The nice thing is that they are actually building some single track trails rather than making you stick to the old jeep trails and mining roads.

All that to say, I'm not sure what to say to that email, but I wouldn't go around whining about it to website owners. I'm not sure what that will resolve. Though I suppose it's not unreasonable to ask people not to park illegally on private property or in people's driveways. Seems like a common courtesy thing that some people apparently just don't quite understand.

[hikster11]

I don't think you should remove it. Someone's else will post it on Facebook or some other social media site. I would like to think that the majority of people using the information from your site are responsible and would not park in someone else's driveway. At least put it in the circle of friends if it's not already so you have to pay to see the info. Also add park responsibly and not front of someone's house.

I can sympathize with this person and would be upset if I live there also. But there is a price to pay when you live next something very popular. You can't expect that it should be just yours because you live next to it. She should just call the cops. If there really is no parking signs on the road, then I'm sure there's a towing company down there that would love to make thousands of dollars a day towing cars from ignorant people. She just needs to inform the towing company.

I had a friend meet up with me at the old Lowe's on 90th South and park his car there. We went to get lunch and we're gone 45 minutes. When we got back the car was gone. I went to the gas station right there by in hopes that they may have saw something because I thought the car got stolen. They told me it got towed and gave me the card of the towing company. It was $150 to get the car back even though they had it for 1 hour. The longer he waited the more money it was if they kept it overnight it was even more. There was nothing we could do and I was obviously pretty pissed about the situation. And they only accept cash. Pretty damn lucrative business towing cars. There were very small signs on the light poles that said no parking. I did not even see them cuz they were small but they were there. I learned a lesson. Looks for signs.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[rockgremlin]

^^^This underscores the problem: People don't read signs. And if they do, many folks just don't care.

Common courtesy is about as common as common sense.


Although I would follow up my stance with a question: What is the city of Moab doing about the problem? Instead of petitioning websites to remove beta, why not approach the city with her problem in hopes of working out a solution? I know this isn't a problem that's unique to just this lady. It's rampant in many parts of Moab, and the local gov't should be open to working towards a solution.

[hikster11]

^^^This underscores the problem: People don't read signs. And if they do, many folks just don't care.

Common courtesy is about as common as common sense.


Although I would follow up my stance with a question: What is the city of Moab doing about the problem? Instead of petitioning websites to remove beta, why not approach the city with her problem in hopes of working out a solution? I know this isn't a problem that's unique to just this lady. It's rampant in many parts of Moab, and the local gov't should be open to working towards a solution.I agree the residence need to address the city about the problem. And the city needs to take action and provide parking options. This problem is not unique to Moab. Many popular trailheads have similar issues.

I just don't think taking the information off one website will help at all with the problem.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[2065toyota]

If you remove one, where does that snowball effect stop.

[rockgremlin]

If you remove one, where does that snowball effect stop.


It's a good question. A different side of the same coin - what to do about the teeming masses? Look at the problems Zion NP is going through. That place is a mess, and nobody knows quite how to fix it. And Moab and Arches are following right in their footsteps.

[2065toyota]

It's a good question. A different side of the same coin - what to do about the teeming masses? Look at the problems Zion NP is going through. That place is a mess, and nobody knows quite how to fix it. And Moab and Arches are following right in their footsteps.


Partially agree, but also think a lot of people just join in on the complaining bandwagon. Not pointing a finger at you.

We went to zion again this Saturday and got a completely lazy start. We didn't even leave St. George until 9am. Got to the Zion entrance gate, maybe 5 cars in line in front of us. Got to the tunnel, waited maybe 15 minutes there and drove on through up to North Fork

We left the cars about 130, went down Englestead, back up Wild Wind and to the cars and drove back to Springdale. We hit Springdale around 9 and the town wasnt even bad at all.

I know the numbers don't lie, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be

[Sombeech]

So many people know about Millcreek canyon, Powerhouse Lane, or what I knew it as 20 years ago as "Left Hand" swimming hole. You remove it, and those "100-1000 people per day" are posting it on Facebook and Instagram on their visit. Removing it from any amount of websites will do nothing, social media carries the beta on this location now.

I used to get the same type of complaints about my video a few years ago, saying that the word was getting out because of the internet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOD7aN_9Byg

By the way, click the description in that video for directions :lol8:

But I, like alot of older sexier men here, found out about it the old fashioned way by asking the Moab locals personally where we could go cool off on a hot July day 20+ years ago. Hell, blame the Moab locals for letting the cat out of the bag.

Pretty soon they'll follow the Kanarraville Canyon model and set up a parking permit system with somebody to collect money.

[twotimer]

I was there for 10 days camped up by Klondike. We would hit the swim holes at Mill Creek nearly every day after our rides. It wasn't too crowded...in fact, we were always able to park in the lot near the toilets.

I would imagine it gets pretty heavy during the holidays/events. I would suggest this lady sucks it up. Try living in the middle of Denver, sweetheart.

[rockgremlin]

^^^ Well, she doesn't want to live in the middle of Denver...that's the whole point.

[Udink]

Hey Shane, I hope you're on top of that Fairy thing (no pun intended). I think that as the environmentalists complain about their favorite places being overrun, we can just give the unwashed masses more places to visit. That should make the environmentalists happy, no?

[Iceaxe]

Honesty... this ladies entire rant reminds me of someone bitching because they have to have sex on their honeymoon.

You live in a tourist town, that is extremely rich and prosperous by small town standards, where nearly every dime comes from the tourist industry. Your town has labored hard the past four decades to industrialized tourism and now you are unhappy that the tourists park in front of your home. Maybe you should have considered the consequences of moving to such a town before today.

On a side note... one of the biggest slams one member of my family can say to another is "stop acting like a tourist". [emoji38]

[twotimer]

^^^ Well, she doesn't want to live in the middle of Denver...that's the whole point.Well yeah, I get it. But the point I made before mentioning Denver is that she should be grateful it's only an occasional inconvenience...and like Shane said, that town is built for visitors.

Are these tourists parking on a public street? Too bad. Now if they're blocking her driveway then she should call the cops.

Her "campaign" to make people unaware that her town exists so she can enjoy peace and quiet if futile. Move to Blanding or Hanksville.

[rockgremlin]

Maybe you should have considered the consequences of moving to such a town before today.


Who says she moved there? It's entirely possible that she's a long standing resident who was born and raised there. In which case, she has a valid point.


Honestly not trying to be a dickhead here. Just advocating for the perspective of someone who may legitimately be the witness to their legacy being converted to a teenage wasteland, trampled by weekend warriors and inconsiderate stoners who don't realize that everything in Moab doesn't exist purely for their entertainment.

[Iceaxe]

Who says she moved there? It's entirely possible that she's a long standing resident who was born and raised there. In which case, she has a valid point.

Actually that would be even worse. That would mean she has spent her entire life supporting a town government hell bent on industrializing tourism.

I can probably identify with her plight as well as anyone. I moved to Draper 35 years ago when it was nothing but a sleepy little farm town. I liked living in a small town with all the amenities of a big city only 30 minutes away. But even 35 years ago I knew the big city would eventually swallow my sleepy little town.

The writing was on the wall long ago for Moab, anyone watching for a lifetime has had 50 plus years to prepare for this day.

[twotimer]

Things have changed quite a bit since Edward Abbey was roaming around there.

I was up on Gold Bar looking down on the town and wonder what it'll look like 20 years from now. I reckon the valley south of town will fill up and they'll build up the slopes of the mountain.

I went to a Rockies game on Sunday...the ballpark in smack in the middle of downtown. All those formerly empty lots or old warehouses have been or are being replaced by multi-unit condos. They're cramming hundreds of people into a space that'll take you 5 minutes to walk around. They look like hotels.

Our cities are going to build up. They're getting thicker quicker than they're spreading out...which is funny, 'cuz years ago I assumed that they would bet bigger, not thicker.

They're building new hotels in Moab, too. Getting close to the river. Once they clean up that dump across the way, I'd bet they'll build up ant colonies there, too.

[rockgremlin]

They're building new hotels in Moab, too. Getting close to the river. Once they clean up that dump across the way, I'd bet they'll build up ant colonies there, too.


It's definitely an attractive plan -- once the tailings are cleaned up, develop that area as it is prime river side real estate.

[Iceaxe]

In Today's Zephyr....

Take it or Leave it: WHY CROWDS, CHAOS, & THE DEATH OF SOLITUDE DON’T MATTER IN THE ‘NEW WEST'

http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2018/06/04/take-it-or-leave-it-why-crowds-chaos-the-death-of-solitude-dont-matter-in-the-new-west-by-jim-stiles/

[uintafly]

Sadly for her, the days of a sleepy little Moab are long over. But if she's been there a long time she is also benefiting from all of that tourist money. I have a buddy who runs a business in Moab and he says his biggest problem is keeping his entry level positions filled. Even the grocery store is now paying $15/hour. Economic times are good in Moab now and it's due almost 100% thanks to the tourism industry. I feel her pain, but this is happening everywhere now as our population continues to increase. It could be worse, she could live in Vernal.

[rockgremlin]

In Today's Zephyr....

Take it or Leave it: WHY CROWDS, CHAOS, & THE DEATH OF SOLITUDE DON’T MATTER IN THE ‘NEW WEST'

http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2018/06/04/take-it-or-leave-it-why-crowds-chaos-the-death-of-solitude-dont-matter-in-the-new-west-by-jim-stiles/


This is an outstanding article. It's kind of long, but worth the read. Here's a few interesting quotes I found especially poignant:

- This is the pursuit of Nature in 2018. This is what it’s becoming. This is what our lives are becoming. We cannot stand to be ‘dis-connected.’ The mere thought of it terrifies most of us. If the silence and solitude (http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2015/04/01/zephyr-extra-solitude-lost-or-unwanted-part-2-by-jim-stiles/) of Nature and wilderness are no longer qualities we long for, then what exactly is it we’re trying to save?

- The "...Disneyfication of Wilderness areas..."

- And so, we offer a lament, as the love and longing for the quiet moment, passed along from generation to generation, for more than a century, from Thoreau to Muir to Leopold to Abbey, draws to a close. The solitude is there, if you know where to look for it, but who’s looking? And who would notice or care if it went away? Is that a bad thing? Who knows? Maybe not. But Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote, “Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience.” The world has lost patience with Nature these days. They’ll never know what they threw away.

[Sombeech]

Quite the pickle. If they would just tell us exactly when to enjoy the outdoors and how, maybe we could stop being so offensive.

Get outside and enjoy the outdoors, they said.
No, no, just a few of you. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/15a5d3378637b3b62a6edff976a527bf.jpg

[rockgremlin]

^^^That kid looks like Harry Potter with dreads. :lol8:

[twotimer]

My best guess is that it's female. However, I'd certainly want a look at the pud before moving in for a smooch.

[oldno7]

. It could be worse, she could live in Vernal.


or worse yet---san francisco.....

[TommyBoy]

Sombeech Its not that people are going outdoors, its the people that go out and try to bring the indoors out with them. They have to be connected, they want paved trails and starbucks close by, they want to drive up snap the pic and then get back to A/C and cable television.

[twotimer]

@Sombeech (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=6) Its not that people are going outdoors, its the people that go out and try to bring the indoors out with them. They have to be connected, they want paved trails and starbucks close by, they want to drive up snap the pic and then get back to A/C and cable television.Right on. I see it this way as well. There are a hell of a lot more RVs out roamin' around than there used to be. Lots of vans and small setups. Plenty of big boys, too.

Ya know what? I'm just glad the places way back there are still too much work for them. I hope the wilderness areas don't get beat down if somehow people figure out how to get in better shape.

[kiwi_outdoors]

well, if its not full dress Harleys with their sound system at 100dB, now its cyclists with their bluetooth Speakers cranked all the way up. Either way, I don't want to have someone else's music jammed into my audio input (so to speak). Thank goodness there is still respite out on the (foot) trial (well, mostly)

[Sombeech]

Funny, speaking of the over populated mill creek canyon in moab, I just so happened to see in my Facebook feed today, yes in June, some photos from a hiker saying he was alone in mill creek. In June!

So take the "100-1000 mill creek visitors each day" with a some skepticism. I'm sure it can peak at those numbers occasionally, on a special weekend, but believe it or not you can still find solitude here. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180606/f5ed0dbd299dd95b611941a9000641b9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180606/457e3044b2f0d352d3c52a0fa3a04e04.jpg

[Iceaxe]

In many ways this is like a lot of good things in life.... everyone wants to have access to all the goodies, but then they want to close the gate behind them.

:popcorn:

[Sandstone Addiction]

Apparently, Kiley Miller is not some "poor lady" or a resident of Moab from before the tourist boom...in fact she is part of the problem. She moved to Moab about 20 years ago because her and her friend fell in love with the area and the rock climbing opportunities.

Lots of stuff on Google about her.

[rockgremlin]

In many ways this is like a lot of good things in life.... everyone wants to have access to all the goodies, but then they want to close the gate behind them.



I'll just put this right here...

89728

[rockgremlin]

Apparently, Kiley Miller is not some "poor lady" or a resident of Moab from before the tourist boom...in fact she is part of the problem. She moved to Moab about 20 years ago because her and her friend fell in love with the area and the rock climbing opportunities.

Lots of stuff on Google about her.


Well then -- this dovetails quite well with Ice's comment about people wanting to close the gate behind them after they find the goodies. This is the classic example.

[denaliguide]

nimby's

[oldno7]

nimby's


Les, long time no post.

Good to see you back.

[Iceaxe]

Les, long time no post.

Good to see you back.
X2

[moab mark]

Honesty... this ladies entire rant reminds me of someone bitching because they have to have sex on their honeymoon.

You live in a tourist town, that is extremely rich and prosperous by small town standards, where nearly every dime comes from the tourist industry. Your town has labored hard the past four decades to industrialized tourism and now you are unhappy that the tourists park in front of your home. Maybe you should have considered the consequences of moving to such a town before today.

On a side note... one of the biggest slams one member of my family can say to another is "stop acting like a tourist". [emoji38]As a lot of you know I spend a lot of time in Moab and the neighborhood that she talking about is a private little neighborhood that is brand new on the road going up to the parking lot. If those people that bought a house in there did not realize the problem that was going to be there it's their own fault. Yes there is no question the area is being overrun by tourists but it's been being overrun for years and those people that built that neighborhood bought those homes knew what they were getting into. I mean good hell for the last 3 or 4 years the sheriff's is out on the main road blocking the road during Jeep Safari because there's so much stinking traffic they can't control it.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[moab mark]

I will tell you though three or four of those homes that are back on the river I would die to own one of them they are in a really nice spot.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[moab mark]

Maybe Zion could loan them some of their buses.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Iceaxe]

WOW! after a little more digging this chick is a real piece of work..... it appears she has been trying to become the Moab Tourist Sheriff for at least the past 15 years.

Moab couple, OHVs on collision course
Dispute with San Juan heats up over ownership of road
By Donna Kemp Spangler
Deseret Morning News March 31, 2004.

The 5,000 or so off-road vehicle enthusiasts expected to descend on Moab over the weekend are looking for rough roads. But they could run into some unexpected bumps.

A popular trail known as Strike Ravine near the headwaters of Kane Springs Canyon is locked in a bitter dispute between San Juan County and a Moab couple who claim ownership of the road and want to keep the rumble of Jeeps off their land.

Kiley Miller and John Rzeczycki have tried to keep the road that crosses their 160-acre parcel closed to off-highway vehicles (OHVs). But San Juan County says it can't stop OHV-ers from using the trail because it is a county road.

The upcoming annual Easter Jeep Safari, now in its 38th year and expected to draw 5,000 Jeep enthusiasts and about 1,500 vehicles, has Miller frantic.

"It's total anxiety," Miller said. "I'm definitely stressed out about it."

The organizers, Red Rock 4-Wheelers, say it is clear they have a right to use the road, but they will steer clear — for now.

"We will exclude or bypass that route," said Marty Avalos of Red Rock 4-Wheelers. "But that's not to say there won't be renegades."

San Juan County Sheriff Mike Lacy said he won't keep OHV-ers off the trail.

"We consider it a county road," he said. "We've been instructed to keep it open during that weekend."

It's an age-old conflict over who owns rural roads. But in an unusual twist, this dispute centers on whether private landowners own the road across their land or whether it is a pre-existing right-of-way owned by the county.

No actual legal deeds to the road exist to clear up the issue.

"We have so many roads," noted San Juan County attorney Craig Halls. "The majority of our roads don't have deeded rights of way."

There's a statutory process for closing a road, he added. It requires a public hearing before the San Juan County Commission, which determines whether closing it is in the best public interest.

"We've required farmers and ranchers, who over the years, want to close their roads, and a few have been closed," Halls added. "People who purchase property may own the property, but the roads are subject to an easement, and they can't just close the road."

Miller's attorney, Steve Russell, isn't so sure. "This is a little bit different," he said.

It involves state lands, not federal lands, so counties can't claim road ownership under an old mining law — "RS 2477" — which guaranteed states and counties the use of highways across federal land, Miller added.

At issue here is a state law that allows the counties rights of way across state lands provided they existed before Jan. 1, 1992.

"It would be my position that in order to prove it's a public road would be whether it had continuous public use. The only people who use the road is the Red Rock 4-Wheelers," Russell said. "That does not constitute a continuous public use. . . . The Red Rock 4-Wheelers are not free to use it. They have permission on a limited basis (during the Jeep Safari)."

An avid rock climber, Miller moved from California to Moab six years ago to enjoy the rugged cliffs. She and Rzeczycki fell in love with the area but couldn't afford the inflated land prices of Moab. They were excited to find a 160-acre parcel just 13 miles south of Moab for sale. It was part of an auction by the state School and Institutional Trust Land Administration (SITLA). They won the bid at a bargain price of $42,000.

"We bought this big piece of rugged land with the intention of building a house on it," she said.

Located on the property are two trails used by off-road enthusiasts, Lower Helldorado and Strike Ravine. The Lower Helldorado — which many people agree is merely a wash — is not part of the Easter Jeep Safari, organizers say. But the Strike Ravine has been part of the blow-out weekend since 1992.

In the transaction, SITLA didn't indicate there were county-claimed roads on the property purchased by Miller and Rzeczycki because there were no legal recordings of the claims, nor did San Juan County make its intentions known.

"It's a shame," conceded Rick Wilcox, a resource specialist with SITLA. "We've learned a lesson from this case that we make it part of the advertisement from now on."

Miller and Rzeczycki now find themselves between a rock and hard spot in the road.

"It's pretty huge doing this. There's a lot of people in this community who are going to hate me," Miller said. "It just seems like it's so inappropriate to have this total blatant use of OHVs (when) we're just trying to protect the area. This is a special place that we don't want to see it destroyed."

[oldno7]

" Miller moved from California to Moab six years ago"


That sums it up

go back to your shithole...


I was one of the original 5 who bought the now called, "area bfe"(sold my share)

I'm quite certain these 2 adjoin that property.

[twotimer]

She's like that mouse that's about to get creamed by the hawk...desperately throwing up the middle finger.

Futile, my dear...good luck.

[oldno7]

...,

[2065toyota]

89734

[uintafly]

Anyone know the outcome of the road dispute? I am guessing it is still open?

[uintafly]

I'll just put this right here...

89728

She could be the sister of the lady that wanted to murder me in Millcreek.

[rockgremlin]

She could be the sister of the lady that wanted to murder me in Millcreek.


This is a story I'd like to hear. Do tell.

[uintafly]

This is a story I'd like to hear. Do tell.

I told it in here at some point, but the gist of it was I thought it was an even day and rode my bike up Big Water on an odd day. I was violently accosted by an hysterical trekking pole wielding old woman. She jumped in front of me on the trail with her poles extended and screamed "STOOOOOOPPPPP!!!!", I though there must be a crime scene ahead or something. Nope, I was just illegally pedaling. The funny thing is that I did actually feel bad and it was an honest mistake. I ended up walking my bike down in a little shame. But she was having none of my apologies and kept berating me for several minutes. I finally had enough at some point and possibly called her the "c" word. I felt bad about that too for a while. Now it makes me smile.

[rockgremlin]

I finally had enough at some point and possibly called her the "c" word.

:roflol:

[moab mark]

Anyone know the outcome of the road dispute? I am guessing it is still open?I'm a little bit confused on this whole thing because the Lower Helldorado Trail has been placed inside of a gated area that you either get the key from the BLM or you get it through the BFe guys. But that's been in place for several years now. If what she's talking about is the same place I'm thinking of the Jeep Safari does not use that section for any of their official runs. But it's been a Jeep Trail since I started Jeeping down there in the early 80s.
Area BFE, which would be east of where they own this ground, is a massive area that bunch of guys went in and bought and turned it into a rock buggy Jeep playing area that anybody can use.
Mark

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[accadacca]

Kalifornistan...

[twotimer]

I told it in here at some point, but the gist of it was I thought it was an even day and rode my bike up Big Water on an odd day. I was violently accosted by an hysterical trekking pole wielding old woman. She jumped in front of me on the trail with her poles extended and screamed "STOOOOOOPPPPP!!!!", I though there must be a crime scene ahead or something. Nope, I was just illegally pedaling. The funny thing is that I did actually feel bad and it was an honest mistake. I ended up walking my bike down in a little shame. But she was having none of my apologies and kept berating me for several minutes. I finally had enough at some point and possibly called her the "c" word. I felt bad about that too for a while. Now it makes me smile.That's hilarious...especially since I laid down the "c" word to a berating old hag once as well. I felt bad and actually apologized when it looked like she might fall over. I was in my 20s when that happened. I don't regret it, but I don't think I'll ever say that to a female again. There's no need as I'd just ignore them...screw you and walk away.

[Iceaxe]

It looks like there is now a lot more new parking along Mill Creek in Moab.

http://via.fox13now.com/hAGbo

[rockgremlin]

It looks like there is now a lot more new parking along Mill Creek in Moab.

http://via.fox13now.com/hAGbo


:roflol: