Moderate Yourself

[accadacca]

We can’t moderate for you. If you can’t take it, don’t visit certain threads. We can’t control you. We can’t take control of your mouse. We can’t make decisions for you or anyone on this site. Freedom of speech is a blessing, don’t make it a crutch for you.

YOU decide how to visit this site. Including what to read and where to contribute. Don’t give up the fight. It’s really not that hard...

[DirkHammergate]

This seems familiar... circa 2007? I'm just ball parking it.

[Iceaxe]

But do we all still get a participation trophy?

A friend was asking....

[twotimer]

Hmmm...looks like there's been some drama round here. Personally, if I get bent about something I'll just post up a picture of me half naked...that usually does the trick.

[2065toyota]

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

This thread has a familiar smell: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?77837-Bogley-the-non-outdoor-community

[accadacca]

This thread has a familiar smell: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?77837-Bogley-the-non-outdoor-community


What would that chart look like for political discussions or general chit chat topics? I would rather hang around a place that has a variety of topics and chit chat, instead of sausage fest canyoneering talk all day. Sorry, I can only take so much of that. [partly tongue in cheek/] [emoji23]

Agreed. This thread isn’t about content though. It’s about self moderation and control. Making your own decisions on what you decided to read and where to participate. Putting on big boy pants.

[rockgremlin]

...sausage fest canyoneering talk all day....


OK -- I'm hoping my tone doesn't sound offensive or condescending in any way here, but I find it interesting that you would say that. If anything the current state of things right here at Bogley is very much a sausage fest. It didn't used to be like that. We used to have a pretty diverse blend of users. But things have changed. Today it is almost 100% male dominated.

[accadacca]

My point is there are other thing to talk about besides canyoneering...

If you have some lady friends you could recruit, I’m sure the bogley faithful wouldn’t complain. Make sure you coach them up to only post trip reports and ignore the other topics. Especially anything offensive. Better yet, only recruit people with thick skin.

[rockgremlin]

I see your point. And I will echo your sentiments by reiterating that we're all adults here, and ought to know how to take responsibility for our actions. While it's an easy thing for most people to exercise personal accountability, it's a struggle for others.

All of this said, I do think that Bogley can be better. Nothing in life is immune from improvement, and Bogley is no exception. I think there are a few twerks we can do here and there to improve things. Numerous ideas have been bantered about by several different members, and the following are a few that I would support:


1. Moving anything political to the political section. That's what it's there for. Let's use it as intended. The last thing a new member wants to see (regardless of how thick his/her skin is) is a bunch of threads dozens of pages long arguing politics.

2. Delete/Condense the least used forum sections. We don't have to please everybody. But on the other hand, I think it would benefit everybody by simplifying things for ease of use.

3. Bring back the Bogley luncheons/activities. Getting to know the person at the other end of your mouse is a good thing.


MBGA

[jman]

I would argue that most people view Bogley from their phone, which means via the Tapatalk app primarily (since it’s free and is optimized for mobile devices). And with Tapatalk, most people choose “unread threads” to appear at the top first.

So on Bogley, all we see is Iceaxe and oldno7’s consistent posts about Trump. And that’s perfectly fine.

Again, with Tapatalk, that’s all we see is unread threads/posts first. So this is what our feed looks like:

1. Trump
2. Trump
3. Guns
4. Guns for all
5. Trump never lies
6. Liberals suck
7. Jenny’s Canyon, Snow Canyon by DiscGo
8. Liar Hillary
9. trump
10. Trump.
11. Confederacy and trump
12. Guns
13. Guns
14. We love trump!
15. Trump
16. Build the wall!
17. Trump! trump! Trump!

Out of the above, how many outdoor threads did you see??

I’m exaggerating to make a point. And so now you have multiple those posts 10x daily and you can see why people say it’s a non-outdoor website.


On the computer version of Bogley.com, we can explicitly choose ONLY going to the canyoneering or hiking sections and bypass all of the political talk, general forum, etc.

Again, Tapatalk, we see can see the new TRs but they get BURIED by the daily TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP! posts. Hence the, “Bogley the non-outdoor community” threads.

And the only way to stop the “Trump trump trump!” posts for a general member is to simply select the “ignore users” option and selecting Iceaxe and oldno7. That would literally reduce 90% of the current Bogley content on someone’s Tapatalk view. But Iceaxe also contributes great on Canyoneering and that would suck for them to ignore or miss his contributions too.

I would argue less politics and more outdoor stuff is what more people want but Tapatalk doesn’t easily allow for that.

So that’s the real issue here - Tapatalk views. [emoji6]



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rockgremlin]

^^^Great points! I hadn't thought of that.

[twotimer]

Some may argue against this, but it's something I believe in...generally speaking. Yes, exceptions exist, but...

When a woman is done with you, she's done. Once you go from hero to zero that's it, baby. There 'aint no goin' back.

In other words, maybe this site has become and will stay what it is. They drifted away, likely never to return. Just let it be...

Although I think moving the political stuff would work as a canary in a coal mine...if SOMETHING has to be done.

[rockgremlin]

Some may argue against this, but it's something I believe in...generally speaking. Yes, exceptions exist, but...

When a woman is done with you, she's done. Once you go from hero to zero that's it, baby. There 'aint no goin' back.

In other words, maybe this site has become and will stay what it is. They drifted away, likely never to return. Just let it be...

Although I think moving the political stuff would work as a canary in a coal mine...if SOMETHING has to be done.


But the effort here is not directed towards "winning back" anybody. It's more directed towards the newcomer or first time user of the site.



And yes, I AM living in a fantasy world....

[Iceaxe]

You guys just don't get it do ya.... if you want more content or more diverse content then provide it. Content is king, those who post often rule the kingdom.

The reason olno7 and my posts top the list is we are the ones posting and providing content. Canyoneering used to top the forum because I was providing a great deal of the content, topics and cannon fodder. While I still love canyons my interests have diversified and I don't post much in canyons these days. Unless someone asks a specific question I know the answer to I seldom post. At one time I would toss a piece of raw meat into the canyons section at least once a day just to watch the feeding frenzy and provide entertainment similar to what I do now with politics.

At this period in time what is happening in our country fascinates me as I think you have a front row seat to history being made on par with sitting in Henery VIII or Napoleon Bonaparte's court. One day my interest will change again and I'll power a different part of the forum.

So stop being a bunch of whiny little shits and step up and contribute to the section of the forum you want to see action in. It's really simple, just toss out a couple topics, post a couple news stories, ask opinions on controversial topics. And a little hint, while trip reports are great they seldom generate much action other then a bunch of likes.

Anyhoo... if you still haven't figured it out... if you are bitching in this thread wanting others to fix the problems you are part of the problem... instead of whining think about stepping up and making the forum what you desire, it's really not that difficult.

/EndRant

[rockgremlin]

The reason olno7 and my posts top the list is we are the ones posting and providing content.


Aside from ranting about politics and condescending to just about everybody on this site, what content have you provided lately? Gushing about Trump doesn't qualify as "content."


I'm all ears.

[Iceaxe]

Aside from ranting about politics and condescending to just about everybody on this site, what content have you provided lately? Gushing about Trump doesn't qualify as "content."


I'm all ears.

Don't be a dumbass.... I'm always at the top of the list because I'm the one doing most the posting (which is content). If you don't like it then fix it! All you have to do is post more and push me down the list or drowned me out with more content. If it wasn't for the political threads and the cry baby threads lately this place would have tumbleweeds blowing through.


http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38765&d=1288294312

:deadhorse:

http://bogley.com/forum/files/bitchslapped1.gif

[twotimer]

And yes, I AM living in a fantasy world....Yeah, me too.

Apparently, it appears the some are concerned about Ice and Oldno going apeshit with the politics...and/or uncordial behavior. Perhaps put up a poll...how many people want to see the basement move?

I'd vote yes, but in reality the way this site is and how everyone behaves isn't a problem for me.

And...I don't expect regaining any of those folks that used to hang out here...it's all about the newbies and those that simply have no interest in the politics. Like Jman said, who wants to wade into it? One quick look at what everyone is talking about and they're outta here.

Oh well, I'm just gonna keep swinging my sausage.

[twotimer]

Don't be a dumbass.... I'm always at the top of the list because I'm the one doing most the posting (which is content). If you don't like it then it fix it! All you have to do is post more and push me down the list or drowned me out with more content. If it wasn't for the political threads lately this place would have tumbleweeds blowing through.

:deadhorse:Can't argue with that...

I just think that site "felt" better when the basement got the action.

[Iceaxe]

How about we just put a political section under Main instead of in the basement? I don't (and will not) post in the basement because no one goes there. 90% of the reason I make any post is for personal entertainment and to see what fish I can reel in while trolling along.

I still laugh my ass off at all the candyass liberals that don't have the intestinal fortitude to simply not click on a thread titled "Donald Trump". Come on folks, some of you have to at least take on some responsibility.


http://rebelgrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/IMG_0698-e1373313350125.jpg

[rockgremlin]

Well, it isn't so much the volume of political threads as it is the fact that the banter can get out of control, and just recently devolved into name-calling. That's not cool. Who wants to sign up to a forum where the members are slinging hate and slander around?

I would support moving political threads to a separate forum within the general discussion.

I am moderating myself in this thread by not getting pissed at Shane and calling him names and then riding off into the sunset, never to return. I'd prefer to work things out civilly...I think it benefits everyone that way.

[twotimer]

Yep. I dare anybody to come after my ass. But with that said...

I hiked last year with some fellow Bogley members and had lots of fun. We camped together. I said to one of them "I'm going to try to be nicer on Bogley". I figured I'd stop referring to liberals as sissy's in particular. Now I just call 'em c*cks*ckers.

[devo_stevo]

I don't mind the political posts and threads. I think it's important to be able to discuss these things openly. I might, and often do, learn things. I also like to see how other people think. It reminds me that we're all human and see the world from different perspectives.

That being said, I'm not a fan of name calling, and personal attacks. It feels juvenile and unnecessary. I'm not hurt by them personally, but I think it brings the site down to a lower level that it doesn't deserve to be lowered to. And, yes, it's going to hurt the site's appeal with new members. There have been several new people introduce themselves in the newbies forum over the last year or two then they disappear completely. I can't help but think there could be a correlation there.

This is all of course just my opinion. So take it for what it is worth.

[rockgremlin]

There have been several new people introduce themselves in the newbies forum over the last year or two then they disappear completely. I can't help but think there could be a correlation there.


I think you're on to something. I've noticed it as well.

As I've said before, if you're content to do nothing to change the site it means that you think it's absolutely perfect in its present state. Be all know that can't be true.

[Sombeech]

The best way to combat the political crap is to create your own threads to drown them out.

I invite all who do not like seeing the political posts at the top of the feed to either reply to a non political thread, or create your own. This will list it at the top of the feed.

Is nobody hitting the ski slopes or trails this winter? If you don't like reading political junk, I invite you to contribute to a thread about what you've been up to lately. Or even, what you'd like to be doing as soon as the trails clear. That, like this thread, will jump right up to the top and will add some welcome variance.

I hesitate to say this but somebody mentioned in another thread that they will no longer post reports here. Rockgremlin asked where they have been posted instead, and no answer. The other ironic part was they didn't hardly post reports here in the first place, but it was a great opportunity to make a complaint. I don't want to call anybody out, but it's time to grow up and contribute if you don't like the trend.

Be the change you want to see on bogley, did I say that right? If you don't like the latest topics, please, I implore you, create some!

Thanks for listening.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[devo_stevo]

If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and make the change.
-Batman

[uintafly]

I disagree with a lot of what oldno7 and iceaxe say, but find them generally entertaining. When they start ranting and raving, I usually read their posts in a grandpa Simpson voice. Sure, they are old and cranky. And yeah Ice in particular seems to suffer from severe dillusions of grandeur, but at least they make me smile. And what more can you ask of online strangers?

[Scott Card]

If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and make the change.
-Batman
Did Batman quote Michael Jackson??? :)

[devo_stevo]

Did Batman quote Michael Jackson??? :)I have kids. The Lego Batman Movie is often playing at my place. It's my 3 year old's favorite.

[twotimer]

I disagree with a lot of what oldno7 and iceaxe say, but find them generally entertaining. When they start ranting and raving, I usually read their posts in a grandpa Simpson voice. Sure, they are old and cranky. And yeah Ice in particular seems to suffer from severe dillusions of grandeur, but at least they make me smile. And what more can you ask of online strangers?Indeed...I visit this site because I like it. Generally, I think everyone around here has their own kinda "cool" factor...heck, even you and Dirk have grown on me. Sure, it can get a bit snarky and snippy but I've gone backpacking with close friends where shitty little moods occur.

We all say and do stupid things now and then...Except for Scott P, of course.

Oh wait, I take that back! Handing over a handful of hundies to a crack whore was pretty dumb.

[tallsteve]

I don't mind the political posts and threads. I think it's important to be able to discuss these things openly. I might, and often do, learn things. I also like to see how other people think. It reminds me that we're all human and see the world from different perspectives.

That being said, I'm not a fan of name calling, and personal attacks. It feels juvenile and unnecessary. I'm not hurt by them personally, but I think it brings the site down to a lower level that it doesn't deserve to be lowered to. And, yes, it's going to hurt the site's appeal with new members. There have been several new people introduce themselves in the newbies forum over the last year or two then they disappear completely. I can't help but think there could be a correlation there.

This is all of course just my opinion. So take it for what it is worth.

^^This^^
I pretty much only visit this site from my office PC during office hours and I rarely look at it via tapatalk, or in the evenings or weekends. So, I can scan through everything rather quickly and/or pick and choose. I actually enjoy the discussions, many of which have made me think or rethink my position on things. Carry on!

[rockgremlin]

So here's what I've gleaned as the currently accepted solution to the issue:

1. Do nothing

2. Post more. Drown out the tidal wave of political rhetoric with your own posts -- trip reports, gear reviews, lifestyle polls, your nephew's bar mitzvah, whatever...

3. Reign in the name calling. We aren't in third grade. This isn't the playground at recess. Speak to others as if you're doing so in person.

4. Take what you read with a hefty dose of salt.

5. Get over yourself.



Hmmmm...I guess I can live with that, but I still think we should resume our previous tradition of Bogley lunches/activities. C'mon at least give me that.

[devo_stevo]

I like the idea of the activities and such. I used to ride bikes with a couple of guys that are no longer active here back in the day. It was fun and it gave me a reason to stay active on the site other than being bored at work.

[Sombeech]

yeah the activities and meetings were fun. There's the Canyoneering gathering coming up, right?

Lunches were tough to get more than 5 of us together, as we are all over the place now.

[jman]

At the very least of all of this - can we all agree on that the picture uploader software needs to be updated/fixed for Bogley? [emoji1531][emoji1531]

...pretty please...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rockgremlin]

At the very least of all of this - can we all agree on that the picture uploader software needs to be updated/fixed for Bogley? [emoji1531][emoji1531]

...pretty please...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah that thing is pretty klunky...

[tallsteve]

I like the idea of the activities and such. I used to ride bikes with a couple of guys that are no longer active here back in the day. It was fun and it gave me a reason to stay active on the site other than being bored at work.

Yeah, the group mtn. bike rides were awesome! I recall a couple of group rides on the Flying Dog trails network where we probably had 15-20 riders show up!

[uintafly]

Indeed...I visit this site because I like it. Generally, I think everyone around here has their own kinda "cool" factor...heck, even you and Dirk have grown on me. Sure, it can get a bit snarky and snippy but I've gone backpacking with close friends where shitty little moods occur.
.

That brings a tear to my eye! You aint so bad yourself

[Iceaxe]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/29/article-0-0D38E40500000578-667_634x837.jpg

[twotimer]

/\/\/\...ah, ha! Hey man, at least we're tryin'...Mr. Outlier.

That is pretty damn funny, though.

[accadacca]

I would be game for a lunch or dinner get together. We are looking for a CEO to drive the good ship lollipop. Maybe we can interview them over dinner.

[rockgremlin]

^^^I thought you were the CEO?

[accadacca]

^^^I thought you were the CEO?
I’ve been retired for at least 10 years and we can’t get anybody to take the reins.

[rockgremlin]

So who's running the shop now?

[accadacca]

^^^I thought you were the CEO?
Seriously though, I’m in my 14th year. Isn’t it time to find another captain?

[accadacca]

It seems that quite a few Bogley followers do care about politics. Hmmm. The most engagement on a Facebook post for a while. Where X Bogley members slip into the shadows and change the dial to G rated programming.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180309/68c12c20af9671fd3f4f42c2e8f6a997.jpg

[Sombeech]

Interestinghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/24abbabe423dfbd598989ab3026f02bf.jpg

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[DirkHammergate]

Seriously though, I’m in my 14th year. Isn’t it time to find another captain?

Oh Captain My Captain!

[DirkHammergate]

Did that just happen?

[DirkHammergate]

**** you guys Man.... I deserve way more respect

[2065toyota]

**** you guys Man.... I deserve way more respect

"People's belief in their self importance. It's nauseating"

:roflol:

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/83e630c22bc1d009d2e0690d84564589.jpg

[accadacca]

The political debates continue on the mothership....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180324/a9313b1bb5e3ffbb4ec1676e29647e91.jpg

[twotimer]

Yep...Professor Scott, doin' his thang.

[rockgremlin]

Yep...Professor Scott, doin' his thang.

:roflol: Some people just aren't content unless they're pounding the pulpit.

[Iceaxe]

Yep...Professor Scott, doin' his thang.
At least Scott's arguments are always based in reality, well thought out and well presented. He's changed my thinking on a variety of subjects.

[accadacca]

At least Scott's arguments are always based in reality, well thought out and well presented. He's changed my thinking on a variety of subjects.

Absolutely agree. The world would be a very boring place without differing opinions.

[twotimer]

At least Scott's arguments are always based in reality, well thought out and well presented. He's changed my thinking on a variety of subjects.Indeed...absolutely NOBODY can say he's full of shit. I don't mind Scott so much, I hiked with him back in the day and really wouldn't mind seeing him again. Any heavy subjects would be off limits, though. It's really quite easy to hang out and not get into the "state of the world" as it is...or perceived, I should say.

The only thing about Scott that irks me is the "semantics" thing...he'll rip your opinion apart because of sloppy phrasing, etc...hence my nickname for him. He tends to miss double entendres and takes sarcastic little jokes too seriously...things just fly right over his head. He can be funny, but not really a jokester.

But heck, we all have our moments, eh?

[uintafly]

Indeed...absolutely NOBODY can say he's full of shit. I don't mind Scott so much, I hiked with him back in the day and really wouldn't mind seeing him again. Any heavy subjects would be off limits, though. It's really quite easy to hang out and not get into the "state of the world" as it is...or perceived, I should say.

The only thing about Scott that irks me is the "semantics" thing...he'll rip your opinion apart because of sloppy phrasing, etc...hence my nickname for him. He tends to miss double entendres and takes sarcastic little jokes too seriously...things just fly right over his head. He can be funny, but not really a jokester.

But heck, we all have our moments, eh?

Could you imagine a debate between Tom Jones and Scott? "T vs. S, battle of fine details and minutiae" :roflol:

One time Tom jumped on me when I asked what knives people were using for canyoneering. Said I wasn't detailed enough in "what exactly people were doing with the knife while in the canyon" for accurate responses. It made me laugh.

I should probably add they are both probably much smarter than me, so I don't run anyone else off.

[Sombeech]

Dang, I'm looking for the complaint from Scott P to REI that they need to be Outdoor related, and not get into politics, but I can't find it. Maybe it's a private message. I sure hope he doesn't give up his REI membership now. What a mess.

[tallsteve]

Did I miss something? What happened with Scott P.?

[rockgremlin]

Did I miss something? What happened with Scott P.?


He bailed. Relocated to friendlier forums. Brian in SLC followed him out the door.

Whaddaya gonna do? :ne_nau:

[tallsteve]

That's too bad. While I didn't agree with a lot of his views, I always read every word he wrote because I knew it was at least thought provoking. 16 and 17 year old kids on the other hand.......

[Sombeech]

Did I miss something? What happened with Scott P.?Personally I think Scott P is a good guy, we all get tricked into commenting on political stuff, it's natural to share our viewpoint.

Some people have complained about political discussion as of late on bogley, when our main genre is Outdoor Community. I agree it's been pretty hot and heavy about guns and politics. But I'm not going to censor it. I believe the best way to have discussions about outdoor recreation, is to WRITE POSTS ABOUT OUTDOOR RECREATION, not to tell others to stop posting about something else. Let your outdoor topics down out the political BS.

But as was shown earlier, the same people, the very same individuals that want to leave bogley because of political discussion in outdoor groups, will be found in other outdoor groups discussing politics.

But they won't make the same demands of REI (that OUTDOOR RETAILER). Why is that? It's a rhetorical question.



Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[twotimer]

But as was shown earlier, the same people, the very same individuals that want to leave bogley because of political discussion in outdoor groups, will be found in other outdoor groups discussing politics.





BINGO! Now that right there is downright quotable.

[twotimer]

Did I miss something? What happened with Scott P.?I bet he'll be back...

[rockgremlin]

I bet he'll be back...


Heck, he's already left and come back twice already. When he returns for round three I'll welcome him back with open arms.

[Sombeech]

Heck, he's already left and come back twice already. When he returns for round three I'll welcome him back with open arms.

And you know what, that's perfectly OK. People come and go, and then come back. Announcing it only makes it a big deal when you come back. Case in point, DirkHammergate never made a big announcement that he was leaving. He just gave us a gift when we came back and we're glad to have him.

Another thing, yes I agree, politics suck, it divides people, and some can't handle it, they leave only to be found in political discussions elsewhere on other outdoor related online groups.

BUT, removing these discussions only makes them pop up elsewhere. The best way to get the political discussions out of the limelight is, yes, you guessed it, POST OR REPLY TO AN OUTDOOR TOPIC.

We've done ultimatums before with people that threatened with Bogley's shutdown after they left. So I personally accommodated them, made it possible to "ignore" certain users they disagreed with, (you know, that whole tolerance thing), and they ended up leaving anyways. And 14 years later, we're still rolling with healthy forum activity everyday.

No more ultimatums. I'm too damned busy and old to be making certain features that cater to people's custom online experience. Shit I can't even get around to fixing the damn picture uploader, and believe me, that's up there on priority, I just can't get to it, sorry @jman (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=333). Personally I've been uploading to Google Photos and then copying the image over, but ANYWAYS, we just don't have the time to make it a childproof forum. We've even slipped a little on blocking the F bomb. Nudity and porn will still get blocked, but when we get to it. If I'm outdoors for the weekend and hating every minute of it according to @Brian in SLC (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?432) it may be a few days until I'm online. We've got some great moderators though and we appreciate it. We just can't be everywhere all the time, and the habit of accommodating everybody and making it a childproof online experience is over. We just need to grow up and know that our political views aren't always the best, and there's an argument here and there that will kick our ass and make us question life.

But for every SINGLE PERSON that complains about the ratio of Political / Gun topics to Outdoors, I say you'd better get posting then.

Thanks

[twotimer]

I think he blew a gasket after I teased him about handing all those hundies over to that crack whore.

[Sombeech]

Bogley welcomes back Scott Patterson.

Good to have you! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180401/b9556ab23263dcc2822d29f3a3c5bd0d.jpg

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[rockgremlin]

^^^Where was this posted? And when? Context please.

[Iceaxe]

^^^Where was this posted? And when? Context please.

Last week on the Bogley Facebook page I believe.

[Scott Card]

There is a facebook page? Who knew!

[jman]

There is a facebook page? Who knew!

It’s the new forum replacements page! Basically, the same banter and no one ever provides any content. ; (except for Scott P)

Hahahahhaa....oh I should be a comedian cause I’m hilarious...

:bootyshake:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[accadacca]

^^^Where was this posted? And when? Context please.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180403/7c32cb88cafa4466018f0bb5d15d8910.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/BogleyOutdoorCommunity/posts/10156759033939311

[rockgremlin]

^^^ Yeah, right. Christ would sooner return to Earth than the Outdoor Retailers return to Utah.