Cue the Anti-AR15 Crowd in 3, 2, 1.....

[tallsteve]

Oh, wait. Forget the countdown. It pretty much happened immediately.

[oldno7]

.,.,.,.

[Brian in SLC]

You know Sam Elliott is pro choice, right?


88984

[Sombeech]

How about nowhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/703d3a3b4b4ba5f8e0b3de8c5ee63d9c.jpg

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Iceaxe]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/4/46/EvilAssaultWeapon.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/600?cb=20090508225612

[oldno7]

,.,.

[oldno7]

whooaaa--it just hit me slcbi thinks movies are real:roflol::roflol:

[oldno7]

Just found his most recent one

[oldno7]

it's almost like he's here...

[DirkHammergate]

To Soon.... I've got another week of sending "thoughts" and "prayers"... don't take that away from me.

[oldno7]

To Soon.... I've got another week of sending "thoughts" and "prayers"... don't take that away from me.

I thought you were an atheist?:ne_nau:

Just trying to understand....

Sending thoughts your way...

[Iceaxe]

...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/bcdf747a469cedeed09c39f22b9b06ef.jpg

[Sombeech]

Atheists don't pray, they add a temporary facebook profile banner and then tell Christians that praying won't do anything

[rockgremlin]

..:yawn:

[DirkHammergate]

I guess I'd just ask what you think the root cause of the mass shootings are if its not the massive gun proliferation in the US? I don't have to cite the numbers which the US has exponential mass shootings and firearm related deaths compared to other countries with stricter gun laws. Take away the premise that gun proliferation is not the problem, then what is it?

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Opiates/Drugs

If its those two we doing nothing of substance to combat both.

[Scott P]

88990

[Scott P]

In case anyone says that NBC is fake news, here is it from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/02/house-republicans-move-to-scrap-obama-rule-on-gun-background-checks.html

Excepts:

Obama's background check rule required the Social Security Administration to forward to the Justice Department the names of certain disabled beneficiaries for a database of individuals ineligible to purchase a firearm. The rule affects an estimated 75,000 beneficiaries who require a representative to manage their benefits because of a disabling mental disorder.

Republican lawmakers criticized the regulation for reinforcing a negative stereotype that people with a mental disorder are dangerous.

"There are people who need help and seek help, but that is not a criteria for taking away one's constitutional right" to own a gun, said Rep. Pete Sessions, R-Texas.

[Iceaxe]

In case anyone says that NBC is fake news, here is it from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/02/house-republicans-move-to-scrap-obama-rule-on-gun-background-checks.html

Excepts:

Obama's background check rule required the Social Security Administration to forward to the Justice Department the names of certain disabled beneficiaries for a database of individuals ineligible to purchase a firearm. The rule affects an estimated 75,000 beneficiaries who require a representative to manage their benefits because of a disabling mental disorder.

Republican lawmakers criticized the regulation for reinforcing a negative stereotype that people with a mental disorder are dangerous.

"There are people who need help and seek help, but that is not a criteria for taking away one's constitutional right" to own a gun, said Rep. Pete Sessions, R-Texas.

The Obama era rules you are citing would have stopped ZERO of the mass shootings to date. It was a law that kept guns from those legally allowed to own them. If you are elderly and had someone else manage your finances you would not be allowed to own a firearm under the program your are citing.

If you want to fix things the very first thing you need to do is enforce the laws already on the books.

Now let's talk about enforcing a law that would make a difference.... 80,000 people attempted to illegally purchase a firearm last year, of that number only 44 were prosecuted. Enforce the fricking laws already on the books and then we can talk about other improvements.

[twotimer]

We could have a "mental health center" on every street corner...as thick as Starbucks and it wouldn't stop these guys. A switch has gone off in their heads.

Personally, I blame the media and our sick culture of violence and voyeurism. The very people screaming bloody murder about it are the same ones that shove their smut down the throats of our kids.

We've go a new TV show with Hannibal the Cannibal feeding people their own body parts. Nice, huh?

[DirkHammergate]

Okay, I'll keep a running tally

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Opiates/Drugs + Enforcing existing laws and go after illegal gun purchasers
TwoTimer = The media is to blame, possibly put mental health kiosks in every Starbucks

[oldno7]

Even the ACLU sided with Trump on that "regulation".

It was/is about due process and the 4th Amendment.

You liberals are slipping,again.

A year ago, Congress and Trump eliminated (http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/03/how-a-never-enforced-rule-being-possibly) a proposed rule that would have included in the federal government gun background database people who received disability payments from Social Security and received assistance to manage their benefits due to mental impairments.
This is a regulation that potentially deprived between 75,000 to 80,000 people of a right based not on what they had done but on the basis of being classified by the government in a certain way (http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/05/obama-wants-to-remove-the-stigma-around). The fact that these people may have these impairments did not inherently mean that they were dangerous to themselves or others and needed to be kept away from guns.
As I noted (http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/01/trump-took-a-break-from-fearmongering-to) when the regulation was repealed last March, this rule violated not just the Second Amendment but the Fourth, because it deprived the affected people of a right without due process. The government does have the power to restrict and even deny gun ownership to people, but it has to show that these people have engaged in behavior that makes weapons dangerous in their hands.
That's why the regulation was opposed not just by National Rifle Association (NRA) but by several mental health and disability groups and by the American Civil Liberties Union. Pundits largely ignored the latter groups' opposition to the rule, preferring to play up the power of the NRA and their influence on Republicans to turn the issue into a partisan fight.
It was hackery then, and it is still hackery today. It's shameful to ignore the serious constitutional problems of this poorly conceived rule just to sow panic and implicate one's political opponents.

[oldno7]

Okay, I'll keep a running tally

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Opiates/Drugs + Enforcing existing laws and go after illegal gun purchasers
TwoTimer = The media is to blame, possibly put mental health kiosks in every Starbucks
dirk=I stay in my mom's dark basement and post shit on the internet, it's safe down here from all the poopy heads.


...

[DirkHammergate]

dirk=I stay in my mom's dark basement and post shit on the internet, it's safe down here from all the poopy heads.


So you're holding it against me that I don't post a dozen memes per day?

[oldno7]

So you're holding it against me that I don't post a dozen memes per day?

whoaa, I thought that was your quote:roflol:

I have no intention of ever holding anything against you...

[Iceaxe]

Okay, I'll keep a running tally

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Opiates/Drugs + Enforcing existing laws and go after illegal gun purchasers
TwoTimer = The media is to blame, possibly put mental health kiosks in every Starbucks

I think you need to fix mine as I stated "psychotropic drugs". Which can simply be classified as being treated for mental illness by way of medication.

FWIW - here is a list of psychotropic drugs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychotropic_medications

Also "go after illegal gun purchasers" is handled under "Enforcing existing laws", no need to complicate things

So bottomline, this is the starting point...

IceAxe = Fix Mental health + Enforcing existing laws

And under fixing the mental health system should be revising HIPAA so doctors can legally report those who they feel threaten the public safety. As it currently stands you might be a potential mass murderer but your doc can't have you entered in the FBI firearm background check because of HIPAA.

[Brian in SLC]

Barry tried, but...uhh, he got shot down...

http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/trump-shooting-mental-illness/

[Iceaxe]

And a little more FYI.... 82% of mass shootings were commited with a illegally obtained weapon. Which is why we first need to enforce existing laws.

[DirkHammergate]

Updated

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Fix Mental health + Enforcing existing laws (I agree with that HIPAA thought)
TwoTimer = The media is to blame, possibly put mental health kiosks in every Starbucks
oldno7 = Liberals are slipping

[Iceaxe]

Barry tried, but...uhh, he got shot down...

http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/trump-shooting-mental-illness/

You almost got it right.... If you read what was posted above we wouldn't be having this talk a second time.


A year ago, Congress and Trump eliminated (http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/03/how-a-never-enforced-rule-being-possibly) a proposed rule that would have included in the federal government gun background database people who received disability payments from Social Security and received assistance to manage their benefits due to mental impairments.
This is a regulation that potentially deprived between 75,000 to 80,000 people of a right based not on what they had done but on the basis of being classified by the government in a certain way (http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/05/obama-wants-to-remove-the-stigma-around). The fact that these people may have these impairments did not inherently mean that they were dangerous to themselves or others and needed to be kept away from guns.
As I noted (http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/01/trump-took-a-break-from-fearmongering-to) when the regulation was repealed last March, this rule violated not just the Second Amendment but the Fourth, because it deprived the affected people of a right without due process. The government does have the power to restrict and even deny gun ownership to people, but it has to show that these people have engaged in behavior that makes weapons dangerous in their hands.
That's why the regulation was opposed not just by National Rifle Association (NRA) but by several mental health and disability groups and by the American Civil Liberties Union. Pundits largely ignored the latter groups' opposition to the rule, preferring to play up the power of the NRA and their influence on Republicans to turn the issue into a partisan fight.
It was hackery then, and it is still hackery today. It's shameful to ignore the serious constitutional problems of this poorly conceived rule just to sow panic and implicate one's political opponents.

[oldno7]

Barry tried, but...uhh, he got shot down...

http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/trump-shooting-mental-illness/

Read post #21 and maybe you can gain some insite into your, terminal ignorance...

[twotimer]

Okay, I'll keep a running tally


TwoTimer = The media is to blame

Oh yeah, I'll stand by that all day long.

I remember reading that you have kids? Well, since I'm assuming that you're mocking my assertion, I've got a few suggestions for you...

Perhaps sit down with the youngsters and watch the original "Robocop". There's this really cool scene where four thugs pump about 150 bullets into his body as he's up against a wall. The finale being a point blank shot to the forehead.

After that, check out "Dredd" with Karl Urban. We get to see bodies splatting on the cement after being thrown off a 500 ft. building...in slow motion! Awesome carnage!

Top off the evening by playing that version of Grand Theft Auto where you get bonus points for killing the whore after you've raped her.

Of course, I understand that opinions of reality vary greatly, but I personally think this shit has an effect on some...especially young men that are fuc*ed up in the head to begin with.

More psychiatric professionals waiting for these dudes to walk in the door...yeah, that'll do the trick!

[DirkHammergate]

Well, since I'm assuming that you're mocking my assertion, I've got a few suggestions for you...

Perhaps sit down with the youngsters and watch the original "Robocop". There's this really cool scene where four thugs pump about 150 bullets into his body as he's up against a wall. The finale being a point blank shot to the forehead.

After that, check out "Dredd" with Karl Urban. We get to see bodies splatting on the cement after being thrown off a 500 ft. building...in slow motion! Awesome carnage!

Top off the evening by playing that version of Grand Theft Auto where you get bonus points for killing the whore after you've raped her.

Naw, I'm not mocking I just would like to know what the root cause of this would be if inordinate gun proliferation is not the cause. That was my question, you answered and I respect that.

I don't like sensationalizing of killing just like any parent. Thing is, I've lived outside the US when I was younger, as a teen and people were wild over those kinds of movies but mass shooting sprees just never happened on the scale that happens here. Near as I could tell everyone loved them as much as people in the US, media is, you know Global. How does anyone explain David Hassellhoff being a megastar in Asia?

We do all watch Zombieland every 6 months or so... Double Tap!

[oldno7]

Updated

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Fix Mental health + Enforcing existing laws (I agree with that HIPAA thought)
TwoTimer = The media is to blame, possibly put mental health kiosks in every Starbucks
oldno7 = Liberals are ignorant and refuse to address real issues
dirk=mom will save me, her basement is a bomb shelter

,,

[DirkHammergate]

,,

Strugglin' there Buddy?

[Scott P]

IceAxe = Fix Mental health + Enforcing existing laws

I agree, but how do you propose we fix the former? A lot of the mentally ill can't afford decent healthcare. Aren't you against providing health care for anyone that can't afford it (serious question). Counseling for the mentally ill is incredibly expensive.

As to the latter, yes existing laws aren't being enforced. How do you propose we enforce them? Politicians on both sides keep saying that we should enforce existing gun laws, but it seems like lip service because it seldom happens.

[oldno7]

How about we make all schools safe by locking all doors after the morning bell.

If you want in you have to be buzzed in at a security door by administration.

Same with exiting, if a student want to leave, there is one door, controlled by administrators, allowing exit.

Thinking out loud, looking for solutions.

question, dirk.

if a guy gets in a car drunk and kills a pedestrian, what should happen?

[oldno7]

If any doors are breached during school hours--all classroom doors close and lock automatically.

[Scott P]

How about we make all schools safe by locking all doors after the morning bell.

If you want in you have to be buzzed in at a security door by administration.

Same with exiting, if a student want to leave, there is one door, controlled by administrators, allowing exit.

Thinking out loud, looking for solutions.

That's how the schools are where I live and we live in a small town. It still wouldn't stop a student in the school from attacking though.

Recently, the principal here requires all students to have see through backpacks, which is supposed to stop this kind of thing (one kid did bring a gun to school and was caught before the rule). It could help, but manufacturers need to come up with more comfortable see through backpacks.

See through backpacks and bags do seem like a good idea.

[oldno7]

That's how the schools are where I live and we live in a small town. It still wouldn't stop a student in the school from attacking though.

Recently, the principal here requires all students to have see through backpacks, which is supposed to stop this kind of thing (one kid did bring a gun to school and was caught before the rule). It could help, but manufacturers need to come up with more comfortable see through backpacks.

See through backpacks and bags do seem like a good idea.

So, this problem is solvable by using ordinary measures?

Or at least reduced greatly?

The schools here are the same but lots of exceptions are allowed.(secure doors)

[DirkHammergate]

How about we make all schools safe by locking all doors after the morning bell.

If you want in you have to be buzzed in at a security door by administration.

Same with exiting, if a student want to leave, there is one door, controlled by administrators, allowing exit.

Thinking out loud, looking for solutions.

Seems Orwellian

[oldno7]

the famous dem cry is---"if it can save just one life"

What I have mentioned would have a great chance to have stopped most all of the school shootings.

Problem is, dems don't want a simple fix, they want choas and then government control.

[DirkHammergate]

question, dirk.

if a guy gets in a car drunk and kills a pedestrian, what should happen?

I expect the standard rule of law to kick in.

[oldno7]

Seems Orwellian

as does gun confiscation, amiright?

[oldno7]

I expect the standard rule of law to kick in.

So why not ban cars if drunks can drive them and kill people?

I agree with you, though, lets let the laws on the books take care of it.

doesn't really make sense to punish law abiding citizens(car drivers, gun owners) for crimes created by a very minute segment of the population, does it.

[Scott P]

So, this problem is solvable by using ordinary measures?

Or at least reduced greatly?

Those rules won't solve the problem, but they should reduce school shootings.

PS, as I've said before I have no problem with you owning firearms. I do worry about those with mental problems and a violent history owning them though. As mentioned, one of my extended family members is mentally ill and has threatened to gun down the family several times. Right now gun laws say that someone has to be forcefully institutionalized or be declared mentally incompetent by the State. That's not good enough in my eyes and even then it seems it can easily be skirted.

[DirkHammergate]

as does gun confiscation, amiright?

Where in this thread have I suggested gun confiscation?

[oldno7]

Where in this thread have I suggested gun confiscation?

you cited Orwell--have you not read "1984"?

[DirkHammergate]

you cited Orwell--have you not read "1984"?

I have. High School requirement.

[oldno7]

Those rules won't solve the problem, but they should reduce school shootings.

PS, as I've said before I have no problem with you owning firearms. I do worry about those with mental problems and a violent history owning them though. As mentioned, one of my extended family members is mentally ill and has threatened to gun down the family several times. Right now gun laws say that someone has to be forcefully institutionalized or be declared mentally incompetent by the State. That's not good enough in my eyes and even then it seems it can easily be skirted.

So we agree that very simple procedures would all but stop school shootings.

The mental issue is a tougher nut to crack, no doubt.

But I have to think there is an answer that does not infringe on a citizens rights.

The obama "regulation" allowed the government to decide who was competent to own a firearm.

In a divided, or any country, that cannot work, as the majority would always abuse this power, it's inevitable.

[DirkHammergate]

I've also read the Bible and Book of Mormon, I'm fascinated by it.

[oldno7]

I have. High School requirement.

Did you notice all the citizens were allowed to own firearms?

[Iceaxe]

A lot of the mentally ill can't afford decent healthcare. Aren't you against providing health care for anyone that can't afford it (serious question).

Nope, I've never stated any such thing.

We need to fix our healthcare system, starting with killing Obamacare as it has only made things worse. The only thing Obamacare accomplished was making certain everyone had equally shitty insurance.

If we want to be ideological we need to adopt a single point pay system, except anyone who has visited the US Post Office, or Verterans Hospital or watched our Senate and House knows the government can't be trusted to run it correctly.

[DirkHammergate]

Updated

Trump = Mental Illness
IceAxe = Fix Mental health + Enforcing existing laws (I agree with that HIPAA thought)
TwoTimer = The media is to blame, possibly put mental health kiosks in every Starbucks
oldno7 = Locking school doors after morning bell, nation wide I presume

[DirkHammergate]

Did you notice all the citizens were allowed to own firearms?

I was focusing on mostly how they were confined, locking all schools seems like a budgetary nightmare anyway and un-American.

[oldno7]

I was focusing on mostly how they were confined, locking all schools seems like a budgetary nightmare anyway and un-American.

Budgetary nightmare?? Are you not aware of "congress", we can afford anything.

Sounds like many kids in Utah, that I'm aware of and Colorado, that Scott is aware of, already do this, are these schools un American?

[oldno7]

Anyway--enough of this--back to 1984.

What would you call the type of government in this Orwellian book?

[oldno7]

on another note---dirk, you seem like kinda the community organizer here, trying to compartmentalize everyones thoughts, what is your solution?

[DirkHammergate]

Budgetary nightmare?? Are you not aware of "congress", we can afford anything.

Sounds like many kids in Utah, that I'm aware of and Colorado, that Scott is aware of, already do this, are these schools un American?

I don't know of any here in Utah that lock doors, check in yes but that's just normal parent stuff checking kids in and out. Inform me on the many schools that do lock doors all day.

[DirkHammergate]

Anyway--enough of this--back to 1984.

What would you call the type of government in this Orwellian book?

I'll go upstairs and ask my Mom

[DirkHammergate]

on another note---dirk, you seem like kinda the community organizer here, trying to compartmentalize everyones thoughts, what is your solution?

No idea man... no idea, that's why I posed the question.

[oldno7]

I don't know of any here in Utah that lock doors, check in yes but that's just normal parent stuff checking kids in and out. Inform me on the many schools that do lock doors all day.

Come to Southern Utah, I can take you to them personally, my wife works at one.

Of course we are more rural.

You might live in a shithole:mrgreen:

[oldno7]

I'll go upstairs and ask my Mom

shouldn't she come down if you yell?

seems silly to leave the computer.

[oldno7]

Has there been a societal change since this?

Scotts good with graphs, has there been an increase or decrease in mass shootings since this time?





Community Mental Health ActOn October 31, 1963, President John F. Kennedy signed into law the Community Mental Health Act (also known as the Mental Retardation and Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act of 1963), which drastically altered the delivery of mental health services and inspired a new era of optimism in mental healthcare. This law led to the establishment of comprehensive community mental health centers throughout the country. It helped people with mental illnesses who were “warehoused” in hospitals and institutions move back into their communities.

[Scott P]

OK, I have a serious question.

To buy from a licensed dealer, why do you have to be 21 to buy a handgun, but only 18 to buy an AR-15?

PS, I joined the military on my 17th birthday, so I'm not saying that teenagers shouldn't have weapons, but the current age law seems strange (to me at least).

[Iceaxe]

I was focusing on mostly how they were confined, locking all schools seems like a budgetary nightmare anyway and un-American.
How about at a very minimum all classrooms have a lock on the door that the teacher can lock from inside the classroom to keep intruders out if the need arises?

Such a simple and cheap lock would have greatly reduced the number of victims in many of the school shootings.

I've actually studied several of these school shootings in-depth. The students and faculty often take shelter in classrooms but have no way to bar or defend the door.

[Scott P]

I was focusing on mostly how they were confined, locking all schools seems like a budgetary nightmare anyway and un-American.

In my eyes, if we can afford for government offices to protect government workers, we can do it for children in schools. Even the Department of Transportation Offices near where I live and out in the middle of nowhere have locked doors where you have to be buzzed in.

[Iceaxe]

OK, I have a serious question.

To buy from a licensed dealer, why do you have to be 21 to buy a handgun, but only 18 to buy an AR-15?

An AR-15 is classified as a "long gun", vs a handgun. 18 to purchase long guns and 21 for handguns. That's federal law.

However, it is not illegal for an 18 y/o to own or process a handgun, just to purchase one from an FFL dealer. If you gift your child a handgun you are legal under federal law.

AR-15 is nothing more then your typical semi automatic rifle painted black. "AR-15" and "assault rifle" are mostly just terms tossed around in the media and gun control groups to try and scare the ignorant masses. The term "black rifle" is often how you will hear them described in the industry, but that's not nearly as scary.

[Scott P]

Scotts good with graphs, has there been an increase or decrease in mass shootings since this time?

Mass shootings have increased, while overall murder rates have decreased. It will take a while to put a graph together though. That's a long time period.

[Scott P]

An AR-15 is classified as a "long gun", vs a handgun. 18 to purchase long guns and 21 for handguns. That's federal law.

However, it is not illegal for an 18 y/o to own or process a handgun, just to purchase one from an FFL dealer. If you gift your child a handgun you are legal under federal law.

Yes, I already know all that. I was asking why the law was written like that.

I'm guessing that the reason I can think of is that most hunting weapons are long guns, but if that was the only intention, they should have just classified weapons as hunting rifles or something.

The age difference between owning a AR-15, classified as a long gun, and buying a handgun (from a licensed dealer) doesn't make that much sense to me. If laws are going to be defined by age of ownership, it seems silly (to me at least) to classify all rifles and guns as simply hand guns or long rifles. It seems strange to me that an 18 year old can by an AR-15 from a dealer, but not a handgun.


AR-15 is nothing more then your typical semi automatic rifle painted black. "AR-15" and "assault rifle" are mostly just terms tossed around in the media and gun control groups to try and scare the ignorant masses. The term "black rifle" is often how you will hear them described in the industry, but that's not nearly as scary.

Technically the AR-15 was designed to be an assault rifle (for military use).

PS, I already know that AR does not stand for "assault rifle". The history of the AR-15 (which I assume you already know) is quite interesting, for those interested in history.

I remember is basic how the Sargent teaching BRM would go on and on about how the military erred in us using M16's instead of AR-15's.

[oldno7]

Mass shootings have increased, while overall murder rates have decreased. It will take a while to put a graph together though. That's a long time period.

So, gun ownership is up, murder rates are down and mass shootings are up.

Somewhere along that timeline is the answer.

What has changed?

When I was in high school, in Bountiful, we brought guns to school in our vehicles, some proudly displayed.

Guns were freely brought into school, especially a shop class.

Don't recall a lot of mass shootings in the 70's.

Was the Ogden HI-FI murder, jabbed pens in ears,raped teenager, later shot in head, victims made to drink drano

[oldno7]

I'm guessing that the reason I can think of is that most hunting weapons are long guns, but if that was the only intention, they should have just classified weapons as hunting rifles or something.
.

The 2nd amendment as you know, does not state "you have the right to keep and shoot bears", it was never even considered about hunting and is only put into a hunting context by those hell bent on eliminating it.

The AR is a very accurate,easy to carry, low recoiling rifle, they are used for many things and hunting is one of those.

There is no need to classify it as anything but a semi automatic rifle, which can be purchased at 18yrs old.

[Iceaxe]

The age difference between owning a AR-15, classified as a long gun, and buying a handgun (from a licensed dealer) doesn't make that much sense to me.

You didn't read the rest of my post or you would already know the answer to this.

There is basicly no way to restrict black rifles without restricting all semi auto rifles.

[Scott P]

So, gun ownership is up, murder rates are down and mass shootings are up.

Gun ownership has been pretty steady for several decades, at least by percentage of the population.


Don't recall a lot of mass shootings in the 70's.

There weren't many mass shootings then, but murder rates were much higher then.

88991

Here is one graph from Mass Shootings from the Washington Post, though I haven't gone through and checked everything (just in case anyone doesn't trust the WP). I already created one last year, but only back as far as 1984. I did check everything on that one and invited corrections.

Washington Post:

88993

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/

Mine:

88992

If there are any errors in either, feel free to correct.

[Scott P]

The 2nd amendment as you know, does not state "you have the right to keep and shoot bears", it was never even considered about hunting and is only put into a hunting context by those hell bent on eliminating it.

The AR is a very accurate,easy to carry, low recoiling rifle, they are used for many things and hunting is one of those.

There is no need to classify it as anything but a semi automatic rifle, which can be purchased at 18yrs old.

----

You didn't read the rest of my post or you would already know the answer to this.

There is basicly no way to restrict black rifles without restricting all semi auto rifles.

Shane I did read your answer. I still think the age discrepancy is strange.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me rephrase the question. Why do you have to be 21 to buy a hand gun (at least from a dealer)?

[Scott P]

In other news today:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/grandmother-turns-teen-finding-mass-152359140.html

A woman prevented a potential tragedy this week when she reported her 18-year-old grandson to police (http://time.com/5159578/student-suspect-washington-state-school-shooting-plot/) after learning of his plot to carry out a mass shooting at his high school.

Everett police in Washington state arrested 18-year-old Joshua Alexander O'Connor at ACES High School on Tuesday, on suspicion of attempted murder. The arrest was made after O'Connor's grandmother called 911 and turned in a notebook where he had detailed plans to use homemade explosives and shoot students at his school.

"I need to make this count," O’Connor reportedly wrote in the journal (https://nypost.com/2018/02/14/student-arrested-on-suspicion-of-school-shooting-plan/). "I’ve been reviewing many mass shootings/bombings (and attempted bombings) I’m learning from past shooters/bombers mistakes."

O'Connor also reportedly noted that he wanted the death count to be high so he would be infamous. Court papers also detail that his discovered notebook included instructions about making pressure-cooker bombs and grenades.

"We are really grateful to the grandmother. It couldn’t have been easy for her to do," Mukilteo School District spokesman Andy Muntz said (http://www.ibtimes.com/grandmother-turns-teenager-after-finding-school-mass-shooting-plan-notebook-2653788). "It speaks to the importance of the saying, 'if you hear something or see something, call authorities,' and that’s what she did. It's quite possible she saved many lives including her grandson's."

According to Snohomish County Jail records (http://www.snoco.org/app/corrections/jailregister/dailyBookingRegister.aspx), O'Connor's bail has been set at $5 million.

[Scott P]

Mass shootings have increased, while overall murder rates have decreased

Looking through the data, I should revise my statement to Mass shooting deaths have increased, while overall murder rates have decreased.

Mass shootings have increased since the 1960's, but not as nearly as much as the amount of deaths. Although the original statement is true, what has increased greatly is the number of people killed in the shootings.

Since crime stats have been kept, up to the 1960's, the deadliest public mass shooting was the Clock Tower Shooting (Austin Texas) on 8/1/1966 where 18 people were killed.

This wasn't eclipsed until 7/18/1994 at the McDonalds (San Ysidro) California shooting where 22 people were killed.

This was eclipsed again on 10/16/1991 at Luby's Restaurant (Killeen Texas) where 24 people were killed.

This was again eclipsed again on 4/16/2007 when the Virginia Tech shooting killed 33 people.

This was eclipsed again on 6/12/2016 at the Pulse Night Club (Orlando) shooting where 50 people were killed.

This was eclipsed again on 10/1/2017 where the Route 91 Harvest (Las Vegas) shooting took place where 59 were killed (and 422 injured).

So, mass shootings are becoming more deadly.

[Scott Card]

So, gun ownership is up, murder rates are down and mass shootings are up.

When I was in high school, in Bountiful, we brought guns to school in our vehicles, some proudly displayed.

Guns were freely brought into school, especially a shop class.

Don't recall a lot of mass shootings in the 70's.


I think the difference was "the family" - mother, father raising the kid(s). Dirk, put me down for fix the family = fix society.

https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/out-wedlock-births-rise-worldwide

http://www.marripedia.org/effects_of_out-of-wedlock_births_on_society#fnt__6

[uintafly]

Oh yeah, I'll stand by that all day long.

I remember reading that you have kids? Well, since I'm assuming that you're mocking my assertion, I've got a few suggestions for you...

Perhaps sit down with the youngsters and watch the original "Robocop". There's this really cool scene where four thugs pump about 150 bullets into his body as he's up against a wall. The finale being a point blank shot to the forehead.

After that, check out "Dredd" with Karl Urban. We get to see bodies splatting on the cement after being thrown off a 500 ft. building...in slow motion! Awesome carnage!

Top off the evening by playing that version of Grand Theft Auto where you get bonus points for killing the whore after you've raped her.

Of course, I understand that opinions of reality vary greatly, but I personally think this shit has an effect on some...especially young men that are fuc*ed up in the head to begin with.

More psychiatric professionals waiting for these dudes to walk in the door...yeah, that'll do the trick!

I've always found it strange how many people have no problems taking their young kids to movies with intense violence, but wouldn't allow them in if there is too much cursing, or god forbid a boobie.

[oldno7]

I think the difference was "the family" - mother, father raising the kid(s). Dirk, put me down for fix the family = fix society.

https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/out-wedlock-births-rise-worldwide

http://www.marripedia.org/effects_of_out-of-wedlock_births_on_society#fnt__6

Or how about family not afraid to discipline a child?

I think we need to figure a way out of that rabbit hole.

[Iceaxe]

So, mass shootings are becoming more deadly.

One item you will find in common with most these mass shootings is that the killers studied previous events in great detail.

The media reports every nuance including what saved lives and what cost lives. So it's of little surprise mass shootings are becoming more deadly as the killers were schooled by those who came before them.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180216/1199f7ab3449ac25d31585609d472762.jpg

[Scott P]

One item you will find in common with most these mass shootings is that the killers studied previous events in great detail.

I was thinking of that too. I wonder how much social media plays a part? Now days you can find detailed instructions on how a mass murder is planned out. Also, a lot of people are doing dumb things for social media attention and infamy.




https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180216/1199f7ab3449ac25d31585609d472762.jpg


I'm surprised that you say that since I thought you were an atheist (and I assume you still are).

Anyway, here's a post I made recently on FB, and it is relevant here.

It is silly to blame it all on one political side or another.

Until our ward was dissolved recently, I was in the LDS Bishopric, of which religion its members consider themselves Christian (though I won't debate that here). I kept hearing and still here that all the violence is because God was taken out of schools, we are becoming less religious as a country, etc., etc. That's just a cop out and a way to judge others and point the finger.

There is a correlation between how Christian a nation is and violence and murders, but it's not what people claim. With only a few exceptions, the more Christian a nation is, the more violent that nation is. Here are two maps.

88994

88995


Does than mean that people should stop being religious or that religion should be banned? No, it does not mean that. What it does mean though that people should stop blaming others different from them for all the world's problems. Something else should be done rather than just blaming others who are different from you.

[oldno7]

Broward County Sheriff's deputies were called to the family home of shooter Nikolas Cruz 39 times since 2010, according to documents obtained by CNN. The range of emergency calls included reports of a mentally ill person, child/elderly abuse, domestic disturbance and missing person. Details of those calls are not immediately available; most of them are marked "no written report," so it's impossible to know if they involved Cruz. The family home was sold in January 2017, according to property records.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46262716&nid=157&title=run-a-6-minute-fatal-rampage-for-shocked-florida-school

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180216/62fdd22eb13c10a6707a05bf4a0692f2.jpg

[Iceaxe]

I'm surprised that you say that since I thought you were an atheist (and I assume you still are).

I'm probably somewhere between agnostic and/or deist if you want to label my beliefs.

And while I may not buy into organized religion I do try to live by the golden rule and wish everyone did.

[oldno7]

And even more of them aren't. Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Robert Lewis Dear, Paul Anthony Ciancia, etc. were all from the right wing. It is silly to blame it all on one political side or another.








Your statement is disingenuous and lacking balance.


it is in conclusive and lacking, clearly an attempt to do as you say--" It is silly to blame it all on one political side or another."

In 2003 Douglas Williams, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 7 people at a Lockheed Martin plant.

In 2007 a Democrat named Seung – Hui Cho, shot and killed 32 people in Virginia Tech.

In 2010 a mentally ill Democrat named Jared Lee Loughner, shot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and killed 6 others.

In 2011 a Democrat named James Holmes, went into a movie theater and shot and killed 12 people.

In 2012 Andrew Engeldinger, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 7 people in Minneapolis.

In 2013 a Democrat named Adam Lanza, shot and killed 26 people in a school in Newtown , CT.

Sept 2013, an angry Democrat shot 12 at a Navy ship yard.

how about that socialist guy who killed Kennedy?

fort hood shooter

columbine killers

DC snipers

Chattanooga TN Marine Recruiting center shooter

Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber)

Orlando nightclub

San Bernadino



and on and on.........

[DirkHammergate]

I'm probably somewhere between agnostic and/or deist if you want to label my beliefs.

And while I may not buy into organized religion I do try to live by the golden rule and wish everyone did.

Same here, Sombeech tried to cock block my ability to send "thoughts" and "prayers" to people earlier. I wasn't happy about that.

[tallsteve]

Wow, I don't look at my own thread for several hours then come back to this. That'll teach me.
I firmly believe it’s a societal issue. Disintegration of the family. Absentee fathers. Violence in video games. Violence in movies. Violence in pornography, etc. People aren’t humans anymore- just objects to do whatever to; 1 upping on social media; mental illness; and on and on. I guess my point is that pretty much all of my more liberal friends (and I have a lot), always, always, always, make it about the instrument used in the murders with very little to none about the why. If you take away the instrument used the murders will stop and I so disagree with that. Until the societal issues are fixed, murder will continue.
The day of this shooting, I watched one of the local Florida news stations interview a kid who used to be friends with the shooter. He said the shooter was always showing him stuff on his smartphone about guns and how to build home-made bombs. So, if he wouldn’t have had access to a gun, he would have used a bomb. Or a vehicle. Or whatever else was at his disposal.
But, let’s circle back to the instrument used in this mass murder episode, the AR15, since my liberal friends are calling for them to be outright banned. Ban the AR15 and the “assault rifle” in general, they say (because we all know what AR stands for, right?). No one needs to own one, they say. They are only good for killing, they say. They are too “high powered” they say. They are too scary! They are too black! They are too….whatever.
Now let’s look at the facts. I have poured over the FBI data on murder in the US. They have it broken down by state and the instrument used in those murders. The latest FBI reports I can find are from 2016 (linked below). For fun let’s look at the stats for California. In 2016 there were 1,930 murders. Of that number only 37 were murders by rifle, which includes AR15’s of course. 37. How many of those were done with an AR? Don’t know. Let’s assume maybe 75%. What’s that then, 27? 27 out of 1,930. What’s even more crazy are the “other” instruments of murder. Again, California 2016: Knives or cutting instruments- 280. Hands, fists, feet- 89. Other weapons- 193. So, pretty much every other instrument of murder category is higher than rifles. If my liberal friends logic holds true then that the instrument be banned, we need to therefore ban all knives and other cutting instruments along with hands, fists and feet because way more people are murdered with those than with AR15’s. These ratios hold true for nearly every other state in the US as well.
Bottom line, murder by rifle is relatively low and even lower if you take in the fact that AR15’s are lumped in with all other rifles.
And what about alcohol related vehicle deaths? That annual number in the US is what, around 12,000 or so if I recall correctly? I don’t hear anyone screaming to have vehicles or alcohol banned. I don’t believe any more legislation will stop mass murders from happening as my liberal friends proclaim.
Let’s fix what we have on the books now. If the system we have in place were working, this kid should have never been allowed to purchase a firearm. And shame on those who saw this kids evil heart and never did anything about it.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-12

[Scott P]

it is in conclusive and lacking, clearly an attempt to do as you say--" It is silly to blame it all on one political side or another."

Your statement is disingenuous and lacking balance.

I was responding to someone on FB who was blaming the left for the shootings and violence.

Original comment:

Many of those are known to be unhinged leftists. I think they call themselves progressive nowadays. One not often cited, is the shooter at the Congressional softball game when Steve Scalise was shot. He was shooting Republicans and some lefties shamefully claimed he deserved it.

My response:

"Many of those are known to be unhinged leftists."

And even more of them aren't. Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Robert Lewis Dear, Paul Anthony Ciancia, etc. were all from the right wing. It is silly to blame it all on one political side or another.

Since it's out of context, I can delete the first sentence of my post so the point is not lost.

PS, I know you guys hate Snopes, but for those interested, here is a breakdown of some of those on your list:

https://www.snopes.com/democrat-shooters-list/

I stand by my statement that it's silly to blame everything on one political side or the other.

[Scott P]

Violence in pornography, etc.

I'm not a pornography expert, but are you talking about S & M? OK, maybe I don't want to know.


I firmly believe it’s a societal issue. Disintegration of the family. Absentee fathers. Violence in video games. Violence in movies. Violence in pornography, etc. People aren’t humans anymore- just objects to do whatever to; 1 upping on social media; mental illness; and on and on

If so, why have crime rates declined significantly in recent years? Even with the mass shootings, crime rates are still near historic lows.


If the system we have in place were working, this kid should have never been allowed to purchase a firearm.

The purchase was legal. Here are the Florida requirements for purchasing a firearm:

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx

Having metal illness, making violent threats, or having a non-felony criminal record isn't enough to exclude one from purchasing a firearm. You have to have a felony, have the State declare you mentally incompetent (which seldom happens until after a murder is committed and is usually a tool for the defense), or be forcefully institutionalized.

The shooter met none of the exclusions.


And shame on those who saw this kids evil heart and never did anything about it.

A lot of students and some faculty reported his behavior. Nothing was done.


Let’s fix what we have on the books now.

So far, here are some of the people who have said that.

Trump
Obama
Oldno7
Iceaxe
Me
Tall Steve
Democrats
Republicans

So, why isn't it being done? Both political parties agree. Everyone on Bogley seems to agree(?). Presumably a vast majority of the population agrees. Everyone, especially politicians are giving lip service to enforcing existing laws, but it's not being done.

[oldno7]

It is not in any parties interest to solve problems, they only exist because of problems, perceived or otherwise.

This is why Trump has been so successful, he owes no party and is a problem solver.

Funny how everyone, and I mean everyone decries politicians and what they do/don't do but then when we get someone who makes

changes that benefit all citizens, he's a bad guy...

[Scott P]

This is why Trump has been so successful, he owes no party and is a problem solver.

OK, so what is Trump doing to remedy the situation? (Asked as a question, because I don't know and can't say either way).

[tallsteve]

A lot of students and some faculty reported his behavior. Nothing was done.[/COLOR]



So far, here are some of the people who have said that.

Trump
Obama
Oldno7
Iceaxe
Me
Tall Steve
Democrats
Republicans

So, why isn't it being done? Both political parties agree. Everyone on Bogley seems to agree(?). Presumably a vast majority of the population agrees. Everyone, especially politicians are giving lip service to enforcing existing laws, but it's not being done.

The FBI just stated that they failed to follow up on submitted reports for this guy. So, let's start there because it sounds like there's a big disconnect between submitted reports and actual investigations.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46262716&nid=157&title=fbi-says-it-failed-to-investigate-tip-on-florida-suspect

And, for the record, I'm not a porn expert either. I'm taking my information from an anti-porn, pro love/pro sex non-profit organization I support (monetarily) and follow.

[tallsteve]

I just received this email from my Representative, John Curtis, and I support his statements and actions:



During the last 24 hours, many have spoken out on the violent shooting that left 17 dead. For me, I have used this time for deep reflection and soul searching. I have not been ready to issue a statement because like many of you, I’ve grown weary of the inaction we have seen after our communities witness horrific events, like what has taken place in Parkland, Florida this week. Although I think offering condolences and prayers for the victims and their families is appropriate, I keep asking myself what I would expect from my elected leaders if that was one of my children or grandchildren killed?

As a supporter and protector of the Second Amendment, I call on my friends and associates to show leadership and to not retreat. We understand firearms and are the most qualified to bring answers forward. We can and must provide solutions that both honor Second Amendment rights and protect our neighborhoods and schools.

We need to start somewhere. I mean really start.

We are sad, hurt, angry and frustrated. So, let’s use this as our motivation to focus in on solutions. Not just feel good solutions, but real answers that truly address the problem. To me, that means looking at mental illness, school security, warning signs, and, yes, even who can access firearms.

Below I’ve outlined four steps that I have and will continue to support immediately:


We must properly enforce gun laws and regulations currently on the books—every single time. Additionally, the Senate should follow our lead in the House and pass the Fix NICS Act, which, with my support, passed the House on December 6, 2017. This important legislation enforces current background check laws by applying penalties to government agencies for not reporting information to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).
We must outlaw any other device that converts a legal weapon into an illegal weapon.
Congress must pass legislation that provides further resources to help law enforcement, teachers, and administrators identify warning signs. For this purpose, I have cosponsored H.R. 4909, the STOP School Violence Act of 2018. This legislation reauthorizes a grant program for school security and specifically focuses on training schools and communities to identify warning signs and to intervene before a shooting takes place.
We need to take a comprehensive look at school security and we must dedicate more resources to protect our schools with the same level of commitment that we use to protect our celebrities, elected officials, and airports.

Let there be no doubt – I’m an advocate for American’s constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. I’ve spent much of my professional life helping law enforcement through building training facilities, and I’ve even lectured for the NRA. I’m a gun owner and I would never give that gun up. But that said, it’s time for Congress to find our voice and do the right thing.

[DirkHammergate]

I can get behind that. It's certainly far better than saying "let's not make any "knee jerk" reactions to gun control" after every mass shooting spree in the last 3 year like Paul Ryan does.

[oldno7]

Sounds like John Curtis monitors, bogley.:2thumbs:

[DirkHammergate]

Here is my Congresswoman's response... sigh.

https://love.house.gov/press-releases/statement-on-the-school-shooting-in-parkland-florida/

02/15/2018 Words cannot express my level of sorrow and grief about the unspeakable tragedy in Parkland, Florida. I am grateful to law enforcement for their prompt, compassionate response to the school, and who were able to bring this terror to an end. As a mother, I feel for the families in the community and I’m sending my love and prayers to them.

[middlefork]

We must outlaw any other device that converts a legal weapon into an illegal weapon.

[middlefork]

We must outlaw any other device that converts a legal weapon into an illegal weapon.


I'm not sure he really thought this one through. Just changing magazine capacity can make a gun illegal. Not to mention banning any abrasive that may alter the sear.

[Iceaxe]

Sounds like the FBI really screwed the pooch on this one...

http://www.king5.com/mobile/article/news/nation-world/fbi-admits-it-got-tip-about-florida-shooting-suspect-but-took-no-action/519696084

The tip the FBI received was very detailed and they dropped the ball.

This isn't going to help the FBI's image. First the agency is politicized and now they miss a big fat slow ball pitched right over the plate.

[oldno7]

.....

[hank moon]

....

[devo_stevo]

"The Founders envisioned a sprawling nation where most conversations were local in large part because all media were local. Today, there is literally a national conversation because technology allows us to have one, and it is garbage. It is garbage for precisely the reason Rousseau and the Founders would surmised. You cannot view a vast, sprawling, diverse, continental national such as ours as if it were a small community. But that’s what the “one-nation politics” fad does: It elevates every grievance and slight to a national shouting match. We get outraged by the lack of conformity of people who live thousands of miles away from us. As Megan McArdle has written, social media have turned the whole country into a nation of small-town gossips, prying and judging, clucking and tsk-tsking people they’ll never meet for not agreeing with them or because they’re not living the right way."




Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file

This is profoundly and sadly very true.

[oldno7]

"The Founders envisioned a sprawling nation where most conversations were local in large part because all media were local. Today, there is literally a national conversation because technology allows us to have one, and it is garbage. It is garbage for precisely the reason Rousseau and the Founders would surmised. You cannot view a vast, sprawling, diverse, continental national such as ours as if it were a small community. But that’s what the “one-nation politics” fad does: It elevates every grievance and slight to a national shouting match. We get outraged by the lack of conformity of people who live thousands of miles away from us. As Megan McArdle has written, social media have turned the whole country into a nation of small-town gossips, prying and judging, clucking and tsk-tsking people they’ll never meet for not agreeing with them or because they’re not living the right way."




Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file


so, in your copy and pasted bunch of gobbledy gook, do you have an opinion or is this long diatribe align with yours?

so--lets see, I was for the Constitution, before I was against the Constitution, just prior to being for it, long after I was against it....

yea--pretty hollow...

One paragraph starts out on gun control, then gets lost on the Trump economy, no wonder your side is confused..

[oldno7]

Heres another paragraph from this article:

Canine Update: Not too much to report. There’s been remarkably little drama — or at least new drama (even The Fair Jessica’s attempt to feed Zoë a baby carrot aroused a dainty disdain rather than a dramatic protest, and her attempt to bite the [other] hand that feeds her was playful). Crow-hatred is now simply part of the daily routine. Zoë got to chase some deer this morning, so she’s happy. And Pippa did her usual spanieling.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file

[oldno7]

more drivel:


Trump, loyalists “jokingly” pine for him to be a “dictator,” and religious leaders celebrate his glandular authenticity, while sharing memes of Jesus guiding his pen-hand. Americans, it seems, still crave a king.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file

[devo_stevo]

I'll admit, I didn't read that article. I have tried to read a few things on that site, and they are all a mess and full of nonsense like that quoted above.

I do agree that social media has created a nation of small town gossipers that will tear someone apart for not agreeing with everyone. It hasn't helped in that whole "uniting the nation" thing.

[Iceaxe]

I'll admit, I didn't read that article. I have tried to read a few things on that site, and they are all a mess and full of nonsense like that quoted above.

X2

If you want me to read your stuff learn to gather your thoughts and write them down in an orderly fashion.

[oldno7]

X2

If you want me to read your stuff learn to gather your thoughts and write them down in an orderly fashion.

non sense=liberal

[oldno7]

And whats amazing is people somehow find logic in this nonsense...

[Brian in SLC]

Reasonable read:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ar-15-style-weapons_us_5a84cf09e4b0ab6daf45ab2d

[Iceaxe]

The argument about "assault rifles" is really a stupid argument as the firearm industry has proven they can easily engineer their way around any ban you want to put in place.

The only way to truly ban "assault rifles" is to ban all semi auto rifles and this is never going to happen and if you don't believe or understand that go back and read up on what happened when liberals tried to ban handguns.

Anyhoo... anytime I hear someone talking about banning "assault rifles" I instantly know they are pretty much clueless when it comes to firearms.

YMMV

[Goat]

I saw that ya'll were talking about school locks a few pages ago. This is late, but I teach eighth grade English and I thought I would jump in and tell you my experience in the public education system.

I did my student teaching at Draper Park Middle. Every door in the school remained unlocked during the day. Visitors were required to go through the front doors to enter the school but anyone could easily enter the building from other doors. Also, visitors were not required to sign a check-in log or receive a visitor pass. They just walked in past the secretary and into the school. Draper Park has one large hallway down the center and four offshoot hallways. At the beginning of each of these offshoot hallways are magnetically-controlled heavy doors that can be sealed from the front office or by a special key that the VPs and Principal have. Now, these doors are moot because each hallway has a entrance to the outside with regular doors that, as previously mentioned, are kept unlocked during school hours. As for the classrooms, every class had a large window that looked into the hallways. These windows do not have blinds and are large enough that they would be nearly impossible to cover up in an emergency. Our classroom doors can be locked, but they can only be locked from the outside with the teacher's key.

I now teach at Diamond Fork Jr. in Spanish Fork. At DFJHS, students are not allowed to bring their backpacks to class or carry them in the hallways during passing time (the time in between classes). There are multiple entrances to the school but they stay unlocked during the day. Visitors are required to enter the building through the front doors (again, every other door in the school is unlocked), sign in with the office, and receive a visitor's badge and escort to a class. My classroom door locks but I have to lock it from the outside with my key. My door has a small window on it that I can cover up with a magnet when I need too. The entire school is ground level and I have a small window, with blinds, that overlooks the parking lot.

The biggest problem I can see with school defense is unlocked doors. Teachers should be able to deadbolt their rooms from the inside. Now, I understand that the state does not like this considering there have been plenty of teachers in the past that have raped students while on school grounds. Where do the fine folk of Bogley stand on this issue?

I will not say whether or not I conceal carry to school because I know it makes others uncomfortable, but I am licensed to carry.

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/dea5fbe4b5da862ede43a4ccccdedb4b.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Here's some fun facts you can chew on for a few minutes....

Nearly all mass shooters grew up in a fatherless home.

Growing up in a fatherless home is the number one trait shared by violent criminals.

[DirkHammergate]

I saw that ya'll were talking about school locks a few pages ago. This is late, but I teach eighth grade English and I thought I would jump in and tell you my experience in the public education system.

I did my student teaching at Draper Park Middle. Every door in the school remained unlocked during the day. Visitors were required to go through the front doors to enter the school but anyone could easily enter the building from other doors. Also, visitors were not required to sign a check-in log or receive a visitor pass. They just walked in past the secretary and into the school. Draper Park has one large hallway down the center and four offshoot hallways. At the beginning of each of these offshoot hallways are magnetically-controlled heavy doors that can be sealed from the front office or by a special key that the VPs and Principal have. Now, these doors are moot because each hallway has a entrance to the outside with regular doors that, as previously mentioned, are kept unlocked during school hours. As for the classrooms, every class had a large window that looked into the hallways. These windows do not have blinds and are large enough that they would be nearly impossible to cover up in an emergency. Our classroom doors can be locked, but they can only be locked from the outside with the teacher's key.

I now teach at Diamond Fork Jr. in Spanish Fork. At DFJHS, students are not allowed to bring their backpacks to class or carry them in the hallways during passing time (the time in between classes). There are multiple entrances to the school but they stay unlocked during the day. Visitors are required to enter the building through the front doors (again, every other door in the school is unlocked), sign in with the office, and receive a visitor's badge and escort to a class. My classroom door locks but I have to lock it from the outside with my key. My door has a small window on it that I can cover up with a magnet when I need too. The entire school is ground level and I have a small window, with blinds, that overlooks the parking lot.

The biggest problem I can see with school defense is unlocked doors. Teachers should be able to deadbolt their rooms from the inside. Now, I understand that the state does not like this considering there have been plenty of teachers in the past that have raped students while on school grounds. Where do the fine folk of Bogley stand on this issue?

I will not say whether or not I conceal carry to school because I know it makes others uncomfortable, but I am licensed to carry.

Excellent insight.

[oldno7]

Goat

Very insightful.

It shows the intellect that those like hank and brian can't seem to come up with.

Having a teacher lock a door and rape a student, cannot be tolerated, I would say the odds of this happening are minute at best.

Locked doors would be a huge deterrent to an individual hell bent on executing children.

I personally don't see the Orwellian feel to having all school doors locked while school is in session.

Making only one entry/exit point that is controlled by an administrator, during school hours sounds prudent to me,

especially if it is controlled remotely.

I'm in construction, these type of measures are inherently cheap fixes and easy to retro fit, especially if grid ceilings are in place.

[oldno7]

,.,.

[Scott Card]

Here's some fun facts you can chew on for a few minutes....

Nearly all mass shooters grew up in a fatherless home.

Growing up in a fatherless home is the number one trait shared by violent criminals. Yep, See the links in my post, #77, in this thread about this enormous, yet unaddressed problem.

[Goat]

Having a teacher lock a door and rape a student, cannot be tolerated, I would say the odds of this happening are minute at best.

I thought the same as you but recently I have had to reconsider. Our high school band teacher was regularly sleeping with one of the saxophone girls for two years. I was close with a girl in college that slept with her teacher while still a student. There are two or three teachers that get busted every year in Utah for rape of a minor. I'm sure as more victims of sexual assault come forward with the support of the #MeToo movement, those numbers will increase. A teacher having sexual contact with a student regardless of how close they are in age, is rape. Minors cannot consent to sexual activity with an adult. Even if a student is 18 and they sleep with their teacher it is still considered sexual harassment under state law as long as the 18-year old is still a student at the teacher's place of employment.

On the flip side, and correct me if I am wrong, most of these sexual assaults take place off school grounds. Either in the teacher's own home, a hotel, or the oh so classy, backseat of a car.

Now, is a classroom of children getting shot up worse than a student being sexually assaulted? I don't know. Seems like an impossible question to answer.

[oldno7]

Now, is a classroom of children getting shot up worse than a student being sexually assaulted? I don't know. Seems like an impossible question to answer.

Neither is acceptable, both involve criminals, who by the very nature of their being, don't obey laws.

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/71898f41aeafef23253b284809f5bc78.jpg

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/7209de0f1f3b924d03ccfa5ebb1fecf6.jpg

[oldno7]

.,.,.

[oldno7]

..,,..

[Brian in SLC]

Here's some fun facts you can chew on for a few minutes....

Nearly all mass shooters grew up in a fatherless home.

Growing up in a fatherless home is the number one trait shared by violent criminals.

So...the solution is? All people who grew up in fatherless homes aren't allowed access to firearms? Probably not that practical.

Hippa privacy versus keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill?

Have to be 21 to buy a (any) firearm?

Mental health professionals tied into a national database to see if someone has a firearm?

Registration?

I don't know. How to prevent this stuff?

Interesting push on the Utah legislation hill to urge parents to lock up their guns to prevent their kids from using them to commit suicide...

[DirkHammergate]

So...the solution is?

Meme everything

[oldno7]

Meme everything

It's all thats left when people are incapable of reading.

[Brian in SLC]

Or incapable of putting forth a cogent thought...

[twotimer]

More memes, please!...We meat headed, he-man woman haters just love 'em!

[twotimer]

Seems to me that the "solution" to these freaks going off the rails is simple...unfortunately, it appears that "see something, say something" is useless.

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/e15fd0a4c778b8e64b035ec3a441af1e.jpg

[tallsteve]

I'm tired of my social media newsfeeds filled with "It's all Trump's fault" garbage. I'm honestly not a Trump the man lover but, how can you blame him? Obama had the Presidency and control of the House and Senate for what, a good 4 years and he didn't ban any guns or put in a dent in gun control, yet it's all Trump's fault. Silly. I guess it's just a way for folks to lash out.

[Iceaxe]

The FBI is also taking a beating over this... but in their case some of it is probably deserved.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/19/fbi-under-siege-top-brass-agents-slammed-as-bureau-fights-to-overcome-scandals-and-blunders.html

[tallsteve]

My response to my anti-gun friends who keep posting on facebook to ban AR15 style weapons is, "then what?". They all seem to think that banning this type of firearm will stop mass shootings. My response to that is, "you do know that most mass shootings in the US have happened with handguns, right?". And of course they seem to think all mass shootings historically happen with AR's when in fact it's less than half. So, they ban AR's. Mass shootings continue, then all semi-auto weapons are banned. Then what? Only the methods to mass killings will change (and we all know that even if guns are banned if someone wants one bad enough, they'll get one). Again, I try to point out to them that they are concentrating on the how instead of the why. Until the why is fixed these horrific events will keep happening.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW - Black rifles are used in less than 2% of all crimes, while handguns are used in just over 80% of all crimes.

So banning handguns should be the logical attack from the left. Except for the simple fact that SCOTUS has already ruled you can't ban handguns as it violates the 2nd Amendment.

[tallsteve]

FWIW - Black rifles are used in less than 2% of all crimes, while handguns are used in just over 80% of all crimes.

So banning handguns should be the logical attack from the left. Except for the simple fact that SCOTUS has already ruled you can't ban handguns as it violates the 2nd Amendment.

Yep. Even knives and other cutting instruments, hands, fists and feet are used in more murders BY FAR than all rifles combined.

[devo_stevo]

Yep. My facebook has turned into a minefield of emotions and bull crap. That's on both sides of the issue, BTW. I think I'll do something more productive with my time instead.

[Iceaxe]

I've been thinking about this and the only way to really stop this type of mass shooting/terrorist attack is to harden our soft targets. Anything else is just pissing in the wind as the terrorists will just find another weapon.

The discussion should be about what method we chose to harden the targets, not about which weapon we chose to arm the terrorist with. But none of this will ever happened because our politicians don't really want to solve the problem, they would prefer to use the problem to bash the opposition in the next election (see immigration reform for another example).

https://pics.esmemes.com/means-this-building-is-a-soft-target-where-lawhabidng-people-20197711.png

[BruteForce]

This isn't a gun problem, this is a lack of parenting issue coupled with mental health/drugs. If parents would actually raise their kids as parents and not as best friends, then a good chunk of this would disappear.

Additional points already made:

-Violence on TV
-Violence in video games
-Lack of parenting
-Emotionally detached people

Parents, get your adult aged children out of the basement. Ban violent video games (my kids never were allowed to play GTA, etc). Teach your kids gun safety (taught my kids starting at 8 years old), teach emotional intelligence and apathy.


How about we get to the core of the issue?

[devo_stevo]

How about we get to the core of the issue?
It's just way easier to make some emotionally charged memes and videos and splash them all over the internet. That way people focus on the symptoms of the problem and ignore the root of it all.

My niece is currently freaking out over this. She's shared over 100 videos and memes on facebook since Wednesday saying that guns are evil and Trump is a racist that hates teenagers and wants them all dead. I have avoided the temptation to ask her what she's going to do about the AR-15 (and many other guns) and all of the ammunition that's sitting in her basement inside her dad's gun safe.

[BruteForce]

It's just way easier to make some emotionally charged memes and videos and splash them all over the internet. That way people focus on the symptoms of the problem and ignore the root of it all.

My niece is currently freaking out over this. She's shared over 100 videos and memes on facebook since Wednesday saying that guns are evil and Trump is a racist that hates teenagers and wants them all dead. I have avoided the temptation to ask her what she's going to do about the AR-15 (and many other guns) and all of the ammunition that's sitting in her basement inside her dad's gun safe.

89019

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180220/368d78f3c57dc72575c357443e61c4fd.jpg

[Brian in SLC]

This isn't a gun problem, this is a lack of parenting issue coupled with mental health/drugs. If parents would actually raise their kids as parents and not as best friends, then a good chunk of this would disappear.

Parenting and the values learned at home are an influence, that's for sure. Unfortunately, there's a lot of single parents out there and, they have their hands full trying to provide and parent.


Additional points already made:
-Violence on TV
-Violence in video games
-Lack of parenting
-Emotionally detached people
Parents, get your adult aged children out of the basement. Ban violent video games (my kids never were allowed to play GTA, etc). Teach your kids gun safety (taught my kids starting at 8 years old), teach emotional intelligence and apathy.

Funny...you point out violence on TV and video games...yet, your bogley handle of "BruteForce" and your avatar would indicate you don't practice what you preach yourself.

Yeah, we're a violent, gun society. We tend to reap what we sow.

Core of the issue? What is the "core of the issue"?

You might have something with the "emotionally detached people". How do we get people to care about others?

We had an interesting lunch table discussion on this briefly today...(loud enough that it raised a few eyebrows).

A lot of solutions proposed still wouldn't prevent a lot of these tragedies. We kind of all just gave up on finding a solution...

I dunno. Genie is out of the bottle. Tough to stuff back in.

[rockgremlin]

My kids all range in age between 10 - 16, and they all play "violent video games." Have for years. And I play right along side them. We play Halo and Gears of War together. And we talk openly about the topics of the day. I highly doubt that any of them will be mowing down first graders with an AR during their lifetimes.

Video games are not the reason why Sandy Hook or any other school shooting has taken place. Get a grip.

A few comments from one of my favorite comedian/magicians, Penn Gillette:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9ukt0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_EKdcxQhT4

[Scott P]

00

[BruteForce]

Funny...you point out violence on TV and video games...yet, your bogley handle of "BruteForce" and your avatar would indicate you don't practice what you preach yourself..

My two boys are well adjusted and doing quite well, thank you. As for myself, I earned my handle and weapons qualification the only fashioned way: US Army. :2thumbs:

[hank moon]

....

[rockgremlin]

89079



I used to think this quote was stupid. But now I kinda like it.

[Iceaxe]

So when are you guys going to change you minds so we can get shit done my way?!?

[emoji106]

[Iceaxe]

OK, I have a serious question.

To buy from a licensed dealer, why do you have to be 21 to buy a handgun, but only 18 to buy an AR-15?
Scott P, I looked into this and it was established as part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

The ages were purely arbitrary, but the reasoning behind 21 for handguns is because they are used in more than 70% of all crimes.

The big problem I see with 21 required for black rifles is there is no way to define them, the 1994 assault weapon ban proved that as the manufacturers just engineered their way around any description established. Kind of like trying to define porn.

[tallsteve]

While I'm not OK with giving up my AR or banning future AR purchases (because i believe banning them won't stop one future mass killing spree from happening) I would be OK with a few restrictions or changes to current law. I understand you might not be OK with anything on my list and that's fine, too. It's just my thoughts.

- Ban bump stocks
- Restrict magazine size to 20. I know, I know. Confiscating existing 30 round (or larger) magazines would be an impossible task as there are literally millions of them out there. Plus, it would create a huge under-the-table market for existing ones and the price would be sky-high.
- Increase the age to legally purchase any firearm to at least 21 and maybe even 25, with an exemption clause for any military or ex-military members without any red-flag mental health issues on their record.

[Iceaxe]

For what it's worth, California has strict laws banning the AR-15... the black rifles below are still legal in CA... which just proves the point they are difficult to outlaw....


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/option-zero-stock-660x222.jpg

https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ARMaglock-Ar-15-Fixed-Magazine-Release-Solution-2.jpg

https://www.thetrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/frs_15_2-tfb.jpg

[Iceaxe]

- Ban bump stocks

This is the only thought I might get behind.


- Restrict magazine size to 20.

The Virginia Tech shooter did that with mostly 10 round magazines. He had 17 10 round mags and 2 15 round mags if I remember correctly.


- Increase the age to legally purchase any firearm to at least 21 and maybe even 25, with an exemption clause for any military or ex-military members without any red-flag mental health issues on their record.

There are some studies that suggest military and ex military are more prone to commit mass shootings. Here is a list of just military base shootings. https://www.ranker.com/list/military-base-shooting/mike-rothschild


- Increase the age to legally purchase any firearm to at least 21 and maybe even 25

So now you want to infringe directly on the 2nd Amendment? Which other Amendments do you disagree with? There is nothing in the Constitution or Bill of Rights about these freedoms will save lives.


:soapbox:

[Iceaxe]

I still want to know why we need more gun laws when we don't enforce the gun laws already on the books?

To me that's just commonsense of where you should start, but we already know commonsense isn't nearly as common as you would hope.

[tallsteve]

I don't disagree with any of your responses. I'm just thinking ahead a bit. With all the mass hysteria going on right now, I'm guessing some concessions will need to be made and these are the things I could live with without feeling like I totally got screwed. And, yes, we definitely need to enforce the laws already on the books.

[tallsteve]

Maybe it's just a matter of waiting the hysteria out. It could all blow over. Until we have another mass shooting.

[oldno7]

Immediately following every single catastrophic event, there is always a cry to "just do something"

Thats human nature, there is no one alive who wants/enjoys seeing the slaughter of people, except the mentally deranged.

The short term affects of "just do something" often come with long term consequences.

Any part of any "Right" that is relinquished, rarely comes back, on the contrary--the erosion of rights grows, as does the call to "just do something".

Liberty cannot and does not =security.

Security is unobtainable,the faux feeling of security begins with relinquishing rights to a government.

[tallsteve]

Immediately following every single catastrophic event, there is always a cry to "just do something"

Thats human nature, there is no one alive who wants/enjoys seeing the slaughter of people, except the mentally deranged.

The short term affects of "just do something" often come with long term consequences.

Any part of any "Right" that is relinquished, rarely comes back, on the contrary--the erosion of rights grows, as does the call to "just do something".

Liberty cannot and does not =security.

Security is unobtainable,the faux feeling of security begins with relinquishing rights to a government.

I don't disagree with any of this either but, this "cry to do something" this time around seems way bigger, vocal and more widespread than from any other event I can think of. I don't think it's going away anytime soon.

[oldno7]

I don't disagree with any of this either but, this "cry to do something" this time around seems way bigger, vocal and more widespread than from any other event I can think of. I don't think it's going away anytime soon.

Then I'll jump in your camp if your certain, that what you are willing to give up, will make a difference.

If you are not certain that all you are willing to give up would make a difference then we would both be fools, wouldn't we?

[rockgremlin]

Maybe it's just a matter of waiting the hysteria out. It could all blow over. Until we have another mass shooting.


It takes time. I understand the survivors of the latest shooting are meeting at the Capitol today to demand change. It most likely will not change anything significant.

This is a problem that will have to be resolved over generations of hardship, policy change, and public perception. It can't and won't be resolved overnight.

[Iceaxe]

I don't disagree with any of your responses. I'm just thinking ahead a bit. With all the mass hysteria going on right now, I'm guessing some concessions will need to be made and these are the things I could live with without feeling like I totally got screwed. And, yes, we definitely need to enforce the laws already on the books.

The problem is you are looking to do something, but we need to do something that is effective, and which preferably doesn't infringe upon our Constitutional rights. If you actually want to do something effective....

Enforce the laws already on the books as most homicides are done with illegally obtained weapons. 82% of all gun crimes are committed with an illegal weapon.

Harden soft targets, the Boston Marathon Bombers and the numerous trucks smashing through crowds involved no firearms. We protect our money with guns, why not our children?

Fix our healthcare system. This one I don't have a great answer of what should be done.

Anyhoo.... fix those items and you will have accomplished something useful.

:soapbox:

[twotimer]

I've been a house painter for nearly 40 years...ever heard "Painting is personal", well let me tell ya, it is. I work by myself and I'm in peoples homes for DAYS, sometimes a couple weeks. I've seen every kind of marriage and parent/child dynamic you can imagine. I see how people live, because I have to move all their stuff away from the walls. I'm just over here painting the walls, but you can't help but overhear all the stuff going on. Also, lots of people like to talk/vent about their lives. I'm easy to talk to, believe it or not. Religion, philosophy, politics, their kids, their marriage...I've heard it all.

I've also seen plenty of "problem kids"...adoptions from drug/alcohol, bi-polar issues, rotten and indifferent parenting, etc...

The one thing they all seem to have in common is anger, and lots of it. Violence, doors kicked in, holes punched in walls, things broken, cops being called. Parents that age 25 years in 10. Counseling, drugs, lavishing them with gifts to try to calm them down. Yet they rule the roost anyway.

I can take you to at least 10 houses right now where these "kids" still dominate, even though they're in their 20s. I know of two suicides that occurred in the house...imagine coming home to find the kid has blown his brains out in the bathtub...the ultimate expression of "Fu*k you"...clean up the mess. Both were the kids of millionaires, having it all but still miserable.

So everyone is jumping through hoops trying to figure out what can stop these people from taking out their revenge...cuz revenge is what it's all about. I say nothing can be done if "that switch goes off"...look up "I don't like Mondays"...not the song, but the actual event.

This kid in Florida? His guns should have been confiscated as soon as he made threats. Those idiots that housed him should have turned his firearms over to the cops. He shouldn't have been allowed to buy guns.

Would these things have stopped him? IDK...perhaps he'd find a way around it all.

I guess my point is...go thru life and hope that you never get to close to these fools that have shit for brains. People can scream and yell all they want, but it all boils down to not being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[oldno7]

Somehow--I don't think America was founded on the principle of appeasement.

Possibly in fact--just the opposite.

[tallsteve]

The problem is you are looking to do something, but we need to do something that is effective, and which preferably doesn't infringe upon our Constitutional rights. If you actually want to do something effective....

Enforce the laws already on the books as most homicides are done with illegally obtained weapons. 82% of all gun crimes are committed with an illegal weapon.

Harden soft targets, the Boston Marathon Bombers and the numerous trucks smashing through crowds involved no firearms. We protect our money with guns, why not our children?

Fix our healthcare system. This one I don't have a great answer of what should be done.

Anyhoo.... fix those items and you will have accomplished something useful.

:soapbox:

You misunderstand. I'm not looking to do anything and I don't want anything currently on the books changed. I'm just saying, most likely something will be done on a national scale and those are the things I'd be OK with. None of the things I mentioned would have stopped this mass killing and no weapons ban is going to stop any future mass killings.

[Iceaxe]

You misunderstand. I'm not looking to do anything and I don't want anything currently on the books changed. I'm just saying, most likely something will be done on a national scale and those are the things I'd be OK with. None of the things I mentioned would have stopped this mass killing and no weapons ban is going to stop any future mass killings.

Other then perhaps bump stocks there is nothing else on your list that I would even consider.... and that is the problem. You need to find things we can agree upon to be effective.

FWIW - for a gun owner your list is very liberal. Nothing wrong with that, just sayin'

89080

[oldno7]

. None of the things I mentioned would have stopped this mass killing and no weapons ban is going to stop any future mass killings.

I like and value your opinions, Steve.

So I ask, In all sincerity--why are you willing to do something you know won't work or have any affect?

Things that you say you are o.k. with.

[rockgremlin]

Yo Shane -- you gotta source for that list? Pretty interesting, but some things look a little ****y. Like drug overdose deaths should be much higher I think.

And what qualifies as a "Medical mistake death?" Yikes!

[Iceaxe]

Yo Shane -- you gotta source for that list? Pretty interesting, but some things look a little ****y. Like drug overdose deaths should be much higher I think.

And what qualifies as a "Medical mistake death?" Yikes!


Here you go, the list is updated in realtime ....

http://www.romans322.com/daily-death-rate-statistics.php

The list is very interesting, texting while driving for instance.

Obesity is 26 times the problem that guns are.... maybe we should ban fatasses?

[rockgremlin]

Here you go, the list is updated in realtime ....

http://www.romans322.com/daily-death-rate-statistics.php

The list is very interesting, texting while driving for instance.

Obesity is 26 times the problem that guns are.... maybe we should ban fatasses?


WOW!! Cool link!!

Hmmm....looks like this is a list compiled in real time for deaths so far this year -- no wonder the drug overdose deaths are relatively low still. I'm impressed that they're pulling these statistics from a reputable source -- the CDC.

Some interesting items:

1. Abortion tops the list at 150K+, almost doubling Cancer and Heart Disease (Maybe Senator Foreman from Idaho has a point :haha:)

2. Obesity deaths creeping up on 44,000!!!

3. Suicide has killed more people this year than drunk drivers.

4. Texting drivers have killed almost 900 people.

5. Lawnmowers have killed 10 people so far this year.


Granted, these aren't actual documentable deaths, but are based on reliable statistical data. Still interesting...

[oldno7]

I heard that Trump said that now that democrats are serious about protecting innocent children, it's time to revisit Roe v Wade.

[oldno7]

I believe he will also sign an EO raising the age to drive a motor vehicle to 21 as teenagers are very concerned about senseless deaths of their peers.

Very high number of auto deaths happen between the ages of 16-25

[Iceaxe]

Just imagine the massive public outcry if they pulled candy machines, soda machines and pizza Wednesday out of public schools....

...and folks whine about the NRA.

Guess which would ultimately save more lives.

[Scott P]

Just imagine the massive public outcry if they pulled candy machines, soda machines and pizza Wednesday out of public schools....

They already have. It's been like that for at least a few years. At the schools our kids go to vending machines have vitamin water and fruit.

Edit:

Junk food vending machines have been outlawed in schools nationwide since 2014:

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/high-school-notes/2013/07/01/junk-food-axed-from-school-vending-machines

Several states banned them years before that.


Obesity is 26 times the problem that guns are.... maybe we should ban fatasses?

They shouldn't be banned, but should be charged higher taxes. :wink: Maybe the tax rate should equal body fat percentage. I would bet that a lot of people would make an effort to be healthier if that happened, and it would save billions in healthcare cost.

Anyway, compared to most things on that list, terrorism kills few people. Does that mean we should do nothing about terrorism?

[double moo]

I was listening to a radio show the other day where they talked about how many of these kids who shoot up the schools were loners, ostracizeed, bullied, etc... at school. Eventually the rage from this treatment snaps and we get another school shot up - often times after a round or three on the Psychotropic med therapies.

So how would it be if instead of the victim's families filing another unuccessful lawsuit against the big Pharma, or the gun manufacturer, that they file against the school and the student body for the mental distress that was inflicted on the shooter and take some blame for helping create the situation.

i feel terrible for these families, but honestly believe that some of the students we see on the news lamenting what happened and how their lives are destroyed might very well have been the straw that broke the perp's back. They want gun copntrol because they have a right to go to school without fear... while thousands of kids go to school every day in fear of the treatment they recieve from their peers. I too don't have any answers, just think that there needs to be a bit of introspection going on. Keep peeling the onion layers back and get to the root of the problem... and I don't think the weapon is it.

[accadacca]

Powerful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=wA_V_ivW6CI

[Iceaxe]

In 1974, Palestinian terrorists took over the Netiv Meir Elementary School in what has been called the “Ma’alot Massacre,” which left 22 children dead and many others injured.

The attack forced Israel to come up with a solution in order to prevent such a situation from ever happening again. The nation requires its schools to have a security system, and that policy is still going strong after 40 years.

The results are clearly evident, as there have only been two successful attacks at Israeli schools since 1974, according to Dr. Ted Noel, writing in American Thinker. Noel wrote that “in both cases, the bad guys were killed by armed teachers.”

According to Red State, Israel’s Ministry of Education funds school security, which ranges from shelters and fences to armed and trained guards at every gate.

To take it a step further, Israel also prepares its students and teachers for the slight chance a gunman does get through security by teaching them to be proactive in times of terror by barricading a door or sensing the ripe opportunity to get away safely.

The guards on the doorsteps of Israel’s schools are also trained to look for any suspicious activity, which usually deters anyone with ill intent from entering in the first place.

[Scott P]

Israel also has very strict gun laws.

Here's a pretty good comparison between the two from the Jerusalem Post:

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Israeli-gun-control-regulations-opposite-of-US

[tallsteve]

I like and value your opinions, Steve.

So I ask, In all sincerity--why are you willing to do something you know won't work or have any affect?

Things that you say you are o.k. with.

Again, I really hope nothing gets changed and I will not be pushing for any changes. I think politicians are going to make gun law changes however (even Republicans), no matter how ineffectual or silly, if only to appease the very angry, very vocal public outcry. And they are going to do it to because they want to stay in office. It's coming.

[twotimer]

The guards on the doorsteps of Israel’s schools are also trained to look for any suspicious activity, which usually deters anyone with ill intent from entering in the first place.I was down in southern Baja recently for the first time, staying a few nights in the city of La Paz.

There are policemen and armed soldiers all over the place. The cops are just "standing around" at street corners, and the soldiers are at checkpoints at all the roads that lead into the city. They don't stop you at the checkpoints...they eyeball everyone driving by. If they want you to pull over, you'd better comply otherwise there'll be machine guns tearing your car apart. Not just the soldiers, but the policemen, too. Every small village we passed between La Paz and Cabo had a cop just standing on the side of the road...just eyeballing.

You have to slow down because of speed bumps, and I asked our shuttle driver why they're just looking at everyone. He said "They're looking for bad guys and they know them when they see them". I already knew the answer...they're profiling.

I told him that was a no-no up here in the states and he said that's too bad, 'cuz these guys are catching criminals frequently.

[Iceaxe]

^^^That damn Bill of Rights getting in the way again.

I'd say too bad Mexico doesn't enjoy the freedom offered by the 4th Amendment.

[twotimer]

The point I'm making kinda relates to DoubleMoo's post...they know damn well at these schools who the problem kids are. Heck, when I was in school, I knew who the troublemakers and weirdos were. A lot of them stick out like sore thumbs.

I don't think there will ever really be a solution to bullying and teasing, teenagers are brutal. We've got kids killing themselves and sometimes others in revenge if someone says "You're ugly".

It's a friggin' mess...I'm just glad I never had any kids to worry about. God bless you guys that raise them right. A lot of drama out there.

[tallsteve]

When I was a freshman in high school at Davis back in '74, we had what was called the "Canteen", basically a candy bar, pre-packaged snack counter where you could buy your sugar fix. It was open before school started and during lunch. It was located in a room, down some stairs, in the dark bowels of the school. The room was maybe 20x20'. One day I was walking down the stairs and just before hitting the bottom and rounding the corner to the canteen, someone set off a small pipe bomb. A second or two earlier and I would have been in the blast zone. A couple of kids were hit. Nothing serious that I recall. My ears were ringing for a few hours. The perp was a troubled kid but, I think he basically just got a slap on the wrist. Times have changed.

[oldno7]

Interesting--I grew up just South of you in Bountiful at the same time.

We had a kid blow himself up in his house, just adjacent to the school, he was building pipe bombs.

[oldno7]

Acting FBI Deputy Director David Bowdich said the “processes were in place” to act on a tip about the Parkland, Fla., high school shooter, but they were “not followed.”

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fbi-processes-were-in-place-but-not-followed-to-deal-with-florida-shooter-tip/article/2649750

[oldno7]

,,...

[oldno7]

..,,..

[oldno7]

,.,,..

[oldno7]

.,.,,..

[oldno7]

..,,,...

[oldno7]

..,,,..,

[oldno7]

,..,,.,

[oldno7]

Sounds like the sheriff has a legit problem in many aspects of this shooting--Before/During


According to Israel, Deputy Scot Peterson was on campus at the time of the shooting that killed 17 people.However, Israel said video showed the deputy arriving at the west side of the building where the shooting took place and took up a position but “never went in.”
The sheriff said the information made him “devastated, sick to my stomach.”
When asked what the deputy should have done, Israel replied, “Went in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”

https://wsvn.com/news/local/sheriff-israel-stoneman-douglas-resource-deputy-resigns-amid-investigation/

[uintafly]

Interesting--I grew up just South of you in Bountiful at the same time.

We had a kid blow himself up in his house, just adjacent to the school, he was building pipe bombs.

It's a small world, but I know someone who was real good friends with that kid. To hear it from him, he was at the house about 15 minutes before the bomb went off. Sounds like that family was a bit nutty.

[oldno7]

It's a small world, but I know someone who was real good friends with that kid. To hear it from him, he was at the house about 15 minutes before the bomb went off. Sounds like that family was a bit nutty.

That kid, if alive would be around 55-56 today.

He was a cheerleader/mascot

[oldno7]

Dana Loesch, today at CPAC

Love this gal.

https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/watch-dana-loesch-cpac-rips-bs-media-attacks-gun-owners/

[Iceaxe]

The amount of screw up that resulted in the death of 17 Florida students and teachers is astonishing....

On top of the FBI screwing the pooch it has now come out that the armed sheriff assigned to protect the school bailed when the shooting began...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/deputy-assigned-to-florida-school-never-went-in-during-shooting-sheriff-says.html

[oldno7]

The amount of screw up that resulted in the death of 17 Florida students and teachers is astonishing....

It has now come out that the armed sheriff assigned to protect the school bailed when the shooting began...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/deputy-assigned-to-florida-school-never-went-in-during-shooting-sheriff-says.html


Got that in post #192:cool2:

But that and all the other law enforcement screw ups, can't be repeated enough...

The sheriff keeps repeating the need to ban semi auto guns, sounds like he's covering his own failures and misdirecting from them.

He needs to be fired.

[Iceaxe]

He needs to be fired.

He retired.... which saves him being fired and losing his retirement.

[twotimer]

He retired.... which saves him being fired and losing his retirement.No shit? Well is that 'aint the very definition of BS. Try to imagine that...you puke all over the place and people die, then you bail out with a golden parachute. Good help is hard to find, no doubt about that.

[Scott P]

He retired.... which saves him being fired and losing his retirement.

Just to be clear, it was the deputy rather than the sheriff who retired.

It sounds like the sheriff did suspend the deputy during the investigation, but he decided to retire instead. The sheriff did not retire; only the deputy.

[oldno7]

Just to be clear, it was the deputy rather than the sheriff who retired.

It sounds like the sheriff did suspend the deputy during the investigation, but he decided to retire instead. The sheriff did not retire; only the deputy.

That is my belief as well.

[oldno7]

The deputy now has 6 armed officers guarding his house.

Lets see:

1-coward to guard 1700 students.

6- police officers to guard 1 coward.

Yea--- I think the sheriff has his priorities wrong...

Now we see why he wants to blame guns, covering his inept ass...

[oldno7]

not only did the FBI not act on credible information warning them about Cruz. But the Broward County Sheriff didn't either in November of 2017.

The Miami Herald has compiled a nice summary list of this cascade of government failure.

Feb. 5, 2016: A Broward Sheriff's Office deputy is told by an anonymous caller that Nikolas Cruz, then 17, had threatened on Instagram to shoot up his school and posted a photo of himself with guns. The information is forwarded to BSO Deputy Scot Peterson, a school resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

Sept. 23, 2016: A "peer counselor" reports to Peterson that Cruz had possibly ingested gasoline in a suicide attempt, was cutting himself and wanted to buy a gun. A mental health counselor advises against involuntary committing Cruz. The high school says it will conduct a threat assessment.

Sept. 28, 2016: An investigator for the Florida Department of Children and Families rules Cruz is stable, despite "fresh cuts" on his arms. His mother, Lynda Cruz, says in the past he wrote a racial slur against African Americans on his book bag and had recently talked of buying firearms.

Sept. 24, 2017: A YouTube user named "nikolas cruz" posts a comment stating he wants to become a "professional school shooter." The comment is reported to the FBI in Mississippi, which fails to make the connection to Cruz in South Florida.

Nov. 1, 2017: Katherine Blaine, Lynda Cruz's cousin, calls BSO to report that Nikolas Cruz had weapons and asks that police recover them. A "close family friend" agrees to take the firearms, according to BSO.

Nov. 29, 2017: The Palm Beach County family that took in Cruz after the death of his mother calls the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office to report a fight between him and their son, 22. A member of the family says Cruz had threatened to "get his gun and come back" and that he has "put the gun to others' heads in the past." The family does not want him arrested once he calms down.

Nov. 30, 2017: A caller from Massachusetts calls BSO to report that Cruz is collecting guns and knives and could be a "school shooter in the making." A BSO deputy advises the caller to contact the Palm Beach sheriff.

Jan. 5, 2018: A caller to the FBI's tip line reports that Cruz has "a desire to kill people" and could potentially conduct a school shooting (https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=shooting). The information is never passed on to the FBI's office in Miami.

Feb. 14, 2018: Nikolas Cruz attacks Stoneman Douglas High. Peterson, the school's resource officer, draws his gun outside the building where Cruz is shooting students and staff. He does not enter.
Yet somehow gun owners and the NRA are to blame for this?

During the CNN Gun Control Debate; Sheriff Israel told Dana Loesch of the NRA, " I understand you're standing up for the NRA and I understand that's what you're supposed to do. But you just told this group of people that you are standing up for them. You're not standing up for them until you say, 'I want less weapons.'

As the old saying goes . . .

Those who shout the loudest usually have the most to hide.

[oldno7]

Peterson had been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He was considered a trusted officer who “values his position and takes pride in protecting the students, faculty and staff at his school,” a 2017 performance review said.
His annual salary in 2016 was $75,673.72, according to sheriff’s office records, but he made $101,013 that year with overtime and other compensation. Peterson has been the subject of two internal investigations, neither of which resulted in significant discipline.

[tallsteve]

I've been looking at all sorts of reports and stats over the last several days. If those screaming about banning AR15's because "protect the children" and all that were really concerned about saving kids lives, how about raising the legal driving age to 21? Especially for teenage males. According to the CDC, more than 6 teenagers between the ages of 16 and 19 are killed every day in the US from auto accidents and 221,313 are injured. This stat is from 2015 and I'd venture a guess that it's higher now because the distraction problem keeps increasing. Interesting stuff.

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html

[Iceaxe]

BUT.........

....now you guys are letting actual facts get in the way of a ratings boosting story.

:cool2:

[Sombeech]

Damnit I leave for a few days and now I've got 11 pages to read. Can you guys make it easier on me and fill it up with more pictures so I can catch up?

[middlefork]

Damnit I leave for a few days and now I've got 11 pages to read. Can you guys make it easier on me and fill it up with more pictures so I can catch up?

Nothing to see here. Just move along. :)

[Iceaxe]

David Burns wrote:

Not really going to get into with anybody on this but for what its worth here is some education for you. At the top of this picture is an evil black rifle an XM-15e2. On the bottom is an M1 Carbine. Both can hold 30 round magazines. Both have the same rate of fire. Both are available to the civilian market. One was invented for war to defeat oppressive governments that were murdering millions of defenseless and unarmed citizens. Yes that would be the wooden one.

The M1 was manufactured in WW2 and millions were made. After the war many of our boys came home with their M1's and even more were sold to the civilian markets by the CMP for $20 dollars a piece. "My grandfather bought one."

So yes evil assault rifles "your terminology not mine" have been around for decades. So here is the question. How did we have thousands upon thousands of men return home from some of the most horrific fighting the world has even seen, have access to the M1 and didnt go around killing innocents? Access? Nope. You could go to Sears and buy an M1. You didnt even have to be 18 to purchase one in the 50's. To buy a handgun you have to be 21, that didnt change until 1968.

Well today's guns have more firepower. Nope, also not true. Ammo cheaper? Hell no. Much, much cheaper in the 40's and 50's. So try if you will to take the gun out of the picture and put your focus elsewhere? What has changed?

Nuclear family under attack. God removed from school. Prayers forbidden. School administrators not allowed to punish kids anymore. Defeat is not allowed, everyone gets a trophy. Teasing is bullying. Girls should not be treated as girls and boys should not be treated as boys. When in doubt administrator drugs. Games where you kill people or cops you get points for. Movies that glorify violence. 15 minutes of fame given out on social media for stupidity.

Have guns change? Yes, went from wood to black plastic. Has our society changed? What do you think? Ramble over.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/c726ad7c5e8140e88190278ea0210c6f.jpg

[Sombeech]

Interesting--I grew up just South of you in Bountiful at the same time.

We had a kid blow himself up in his house, just adjacent to the school, he was building pipe bombs.


Hell I used to build pipe bombs with a buddy of mine in the 90s, we'd head over to Smith and Edwards and buy every item necessary.

Metal pipe nipples and caps, 3/4" for most of them
Black gun powder in the metal tins, maybe about a gallon in size?
Canon fuse, the green waterproof fuse, maybe 3 feet of it.

We would put it all in the same shopping cart and check right out, no concerns of splitting up the parts to look more casual. The scariest part would come after we packed all of the powder down into the pipe around the fuse, and we would screw on the metal pipe cap, being DAMN SURE there wasn't any powder residue in those metal threads, that if it were to spark while tightening the cap, I would then have to explain to my parents why I'm missing an arm and there's a new hole in the garage wall.

Fortunately we only did that a few times. Then my buddy would bring home grenade and artillery shell simulations that would go boom. The artillery shell simulators would give this whistle like an incoming shell, and when that blast went off it almost knocked us down. Anyways, those were the days. That's how we got our kicks.

I'm not saying this is a possible alternative to mass shootings, in fact it's the opposite. We were friends, we were happy, we laughed a lot. We had a strong family upbringing. I think that is a big difference to most of these shooters, look at their family upbringing situation, I think you'll see a common theme.

The value of the nuclear family unit has been underestimated for a long time, and I think this is a common denominator in these cases.

[tallsteve]

I found this to be a really good read. I especially relate to point #3 as my facebook feed is filled with friends who know nothing about firearms who keep ranting on and on and on....

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/06/6-reasons-right-wing-friend-isnt-coming-side-gun-control/

[Scott P]

not only did the FBI not act on credible information warning them about Cruz. But the Broward County Sheriff didn't either in November of 2017.

The Miami Herald has compiled a nice summary list of this cascade of government failure.

Feb. 5, 2016: A Broward Sheriff's Office deputy is told by an anonymous caller that Nikolas Cruz, then 17, had threatened on Instagram to shoot up his school and posted a photo of himself with guns. The information is forwarded to BSO Deputy Scot Peterson, a school resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

Sept. 23, 2016: A "peer counselor" reports to Peterson that Cruz had possibly ingested gasoline in a suicide attempt, was cutting himself and wanted to buy a gun. A mental health counselor advises against involuntary committing Cruz. The high school says it will conduct a threat assessment.

Sept. 28, 2016: An investigator for the Florida Department of Children and Families rules Cruz is stable, despite "fresh cuts" on his arms. His mother, Lynda Cruz, says in the past he wrote a racial slur against African Americans on his book bag (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/13/0/19/DealFrame/DealFrame.cmp?bm=1008&BEFID=63715&aon=%5E1&MerchantID=481999&crawler_id=481999&dealId=SungO_OPgW0VssiK5rXabQ%3D%3D&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brownells.com%2Fgunsmith-tools-supplies%2Fbooks-amp-videos%2Fbooks%2Fhandgun-gunsmithing-books%2Fcolt-45-auto-shop-manual-10th-edition-sku924200045-13805-32957.aspx%3Fcm_mmc%3Dcse-_-Itwine-_-shopping-_-924-200-045%26utm_medium%3Dcse%26utm_source%3Decn%26utm_ca mpaign%3Ditwine%26utm_content%3D924-200-045%26gdffi%3D5e517ec5e60d4cc7bbc235bfc648114c%26g dfms%3D0A0A499A318443E5A978D52D676020C3&linkin_id=8058742&Issdt=180223144715&searchID=p34.fa064a7be3288c0570fd&DealName=Heritage+Gun+Books+Colt+45+Auto+Shop+Manu al-+10th+Edition+-+Colt+45+Auto+Shop+Manual-10th+Edition&dlprc=34.99&AR=1&NG=4&NDP=5&PN=1&ST=7&FPT=DSP&NDS=&NMS=&MRS=&PD=&brnId=14305&IsFtr=0&IsSmart=0&op=&CM=&RR=1&IsLps=0&code=&acode=1011&category=&HasLink=&ND=&MN=&GR=&lnkId=&SKU=924200045-924200045-22367) and had recently talked of buying firearms.

Sept. 24, 2017: A YouTube user named "nikolas cruz" posts a comment stating he wants to become a "professional school shooter." The comment is reported to the FBI in Mississippi, which fails to make the connection to Cruz in South Florida.

Nov. 1, 2017: Katherine Blaine, Lynda Cruz's cousin, calls BSO to report that Nikolas Cruz had weapons and asks that police recover them. A "close family friend" agrees to take the firearms, according to BSO.

Nov. 29, 2017: The Palm Beach County family that took in Cruz after the death of his mother calls the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office to report a fight between him and their son, 22. A member of the family says Cruz had threatened to "get his gun and come back" and that he has "put the gun to others' heads in the past." The family does not want him arrested once he calms down.

Nov. 30, 2017: A caller from Massachusetts calls BSO to report that Cruz is collecting guns and knives and could be a "school shooter in the making." A BSO deputy advises the caller to contact the Palm Beach sheriff.

Jan. 5, 2018: A caller to the FBI's tip line reports that Cruz has "a desire to kill people" and could potentially conduct a school shooting (https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=shooting). The information is never passed on to the FBI's office in Miami.

Feb. 14, 2018: Nikolas Cruz attacks Stoneman Douglas High. Peterson, the school's resource officer, draws his gun outside the building where Cruz is shooting students and staff. He does not enter.
Yet somehow gun owners and the NRA are to blame for this?

Unfortunately, with current laws none of the above excludes him from owning a gun. Unless he did something like committing a felony, was forcefully institutionalized, or declared mentally incompetent by the state, he can still buy an AR-15 even if all of the above is 100% true.

See here:

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx

As mentioned, I have an ex-brother in law who has threatened to gun down the family several times and he is still allowed to buy firearms.

[oldno7]

Unfortunately, with current laws none of the above excludes him from owning a gun. Unless he did something like committing a felony, was forcefully institutionalized, or declared mentally incompetent by the state, he can still buy an AR-15 even if all of the above is 100% true.

See here:

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx

As mentioned, I have an ex-brother in law who has threatened to gun down the family several times and he is still allowed to buy firearms.

What you say is true, although not exactly addressing the point.

With all of these "signs" including holding a gun to someones head, there was a huge "probable cause".

He could have been brought in and questioned.

He could have been closely observed.

He could have been ordered a psych eval.

He could have been apprehended for making the threat of "professionally shooting up a school"

If any and all of these things had been reacted upon, the conclusion definitely changes.

He was given much more than "due process" which us conservatives find important.

This wasn't 1 report, it was over 30.

A huge failure on the SRO/.Sheriff/FBI

[Iceaxe]

^^^This^^^

Because others failed to do their job lets blame the firearm.

You can also blame the High School for not following through on the recommended threat assessment of Cruz and the family Cruz lived with for not pressing charges when he committed a violent act. Lot's of failure in this shooting to go around...

Blaming the firearm is just a scapegoat.

[devo_stevo]

This pretty much sums up the treatment of this kid up to this point in his life.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuuV8p9N0rk

[twotimer]

This pretty much sums up the treatment of this kid up to this point in his life.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuuV8p9N0rkRight on! I often site this song as well as their song "Capitalism". I don't think Danny Elfman qualifies as your typical Hollywood liberal. Hmmm, I'll have to look up what his politics are...these days.

[twotimer]

What you say is true, although not exactly addressing the point.

With all of these "signs" including holding a gun to someones head, there was a huge "probable cause".

He could have been brought in and questioned.

He could have been closely observed.

He could have been ordered a psych eval.

He could have been apprehended for making the threat of "professionally shooting up a school"

If any and all of these things had been reacted upon, the conclusion definitely changes.

He was given much more than "due process" which us conservatives find important.

This wasn't 1 report, it was over 30.

A huge failure on the SRO/.Sheriff/FBIIt's liberals that run all this stuff and it's their laws. As long as I've been an adult, I've believed that second chances and the benefit of the doubt are both time consuming and expensive.

[oldno7]

Now a total of 4 sheriff's officers, stayed outside during shooting. A direct reflection on the Sheriff,imo

CNN)When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

[oldno7]

Heres a picture of the coward sheriff.

Needs firing--serious lack of leadership.

Oficers from a nearby town(Coral Springs) came and entered while these cowards sat outside.

[Sombeech]

The FBI just didn't have the resources freed up. Simple. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/128e4b8c7590dcc8fcfde31910900f64.jpg

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[accadacca]

CNN’s Alisyn Camerota to NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch: “You think we love mass shootings? … It’s just malicious, actually, that you would say that. I don’t know anybody in the media who likes mass shootings. You’re wrong on every single level. We pray that there’s never another one.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=1IDpQPW-l44

[Iceaxe]

^^^While legacy media might not like mass shootings they certainly like the ratings they generate.

[Iceaxe]

Police take an oath to protect and serve their communities. 99.9% of officers take that oath very seriously and would lay their lives on the line to protect innocent people. Yet last week, 4 officers FAILED one community. This is why we need the option to protect ourselves — a right which is in the Constitution.

[Iceaxe]

On a better note, here’s an off duty Coral Springs PD officer (married to a school staffer with a kid at the school) who ran in unarmed wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Rendered aid to a wounded kid, then went to enter the building unarmed. Ran into CSPD SWAT, who threw him a soft kevlar vest (which stops pistol, but not rifle, rounds) and one of their handguns. He entered while the sheriff’s deputies sat outside.

http://tribunist.com/news/hes-the-heroic-police-officer-who-charged-into-douglas-high-school-in-shorts-and-a-t-shirt-to-save-lives/?utm_source=ASMDSS

[oldno7]

speaks for itself

[oldno7]

,,..

[oldno7]

..,,..

[oldno7]

The broward cowards

[oldno7]

,,..,,

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/eefd399e1813d7cd368b41192b2e2cd3.jpg

[oldno7]

Heres a full interview of the broward coward in chief.

Fairly surprised by Tapper, I must admit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEnxdq487y8&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

[oldno7]

.,.,.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOE1QqqOqJk

[oldno7]

And now, it's so plain to see how this shooting is the fault of 5,000,000+( and growing), NRA members.:facepalm1:

[oldno7]

Heres the FBI transcript of one of the calls into them:

http://therightscoop.com/fbi-call-warning-about-cruz-released-says-hes-into-isis-mentally-slow-full-transcript/

[oldno7]

,.,.,

[Sombeech]

Heres the FBI transcript of one of the calls into them:

http://therightscoop.com/fbi-call-warning-about-cruz-released-says-hes-into-isis-mentally-slow-full-transcript/

If they would have just mentioned Russians, they'd have the FBI's full attention. That's unfortunate.

[rockgremlin]

DANG!! Jake Tapper put the wood to that Sheriff!! :eek2:

Pretty bold line of questioning even for a non-CNN outlet.

[uintafly]

If they would have just mentioned Russians, they'd have the FBI's full attention. That's unfortunate.

While this line of thought has made for a lot of memes in the last week or two, do we all understand that both of these issues come from completely different departments within the FBI? Is there something out there that can show resources being sucked from all other departments to cover the Russia investigation and I just haven't seen it.

[Sombeech]

While this line of thought has made for a lot of memes in the last week or two, do we all understand that both of these issues come from completely different departments within the FBI?

That's odd, so the Non-Russian FBI department were totally available and freed up to investigate this guy, and snoozed?

[oldno7]

Actually what is happening, is 8 years worth of politicizing an federal agency, one of several.

Doesn't matter how many differing divisions they have if they are all, overwhelmingly screwing up and in a deliberate,political manner.

[Iceaxe]

While this line of thought has made for a lot of memes in the last week or two, do we all understand that both of these issues come from completely different departments within the FBI? Is there something out there that can show resources being sucked from all other departments to cover the Russia investigation and I just haven't seen it.10 agents, 100 agents, 1000 agents.... does it really matter? It all comes back to allotment and allocation of available resources.

Anyone inside the FBI will tell you the best thing to happen to organized crime in the past 20 years was the terrorists bring down the twin towers. Instantly the resources allocated to combating organized crime fell drastically as priorities and manpower were shifted.

[rockgremlin]

The latest:

Apparently the derelict deputy who stood outside and did nothing while students were being shot inside the school thought the shots were being fired outside, NOT inside. :facepalm1:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46268900&nid=157&title=attorney-deputy-thought-gunfire-was-from-outside-school

[twotimer]

The latest:

Apparently the derelict deputy who stood outside and did nothing while students were being shot inside the school thought the shots were being fired outside, NOT inside. :facepalm1:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46268900&nid=157&title=attorney-deputy-thought-gunfire-was-from-outside-schoolThat's a lot of BS...he knew damn well where the gunfire was. He was just too chicken shit to go in there. Just another jerk-off CYA.

[Iceaxe]

^^^This^^^

If he knew the shooting was coming from outside why did he hide behind a wall and cover the exit?

I honestly get being scared shitless... going up against a semi auto rifle with a handgun is not a winning proposition, but I can not see most people letting kids get slaughtered without trying. It's just a sad deal all the way around. The cop is a victim of this as much as anyone, I'm sure he hates himself for this and it will be difficult for him to live with.

[oldno7]

.,.,

[oldno7]

...,,

[rockgremlin]

That is pretty funny, actually. LOL at the pink bow in the lion's mane and the overly cheerful dandelion proclaiming "amazing leadership."

[oldno7]

.,.,.

[Sombeech]

LOL OMG

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=89160&stc=1&d=1519741392

[devo_stevo]

It's all too strange. I looked on Youtube and sure enough, there are 3 videos of that girl in the picture telling the world that she had an abortion at 17 and that she didn't know about his wife and three kids when they were doing it. The videos were put up there in October of 2012.

I'm starting to think this guy has never taken ownership of anything in his life. Just seems to run away and blame a bunch of other people for his problems.