Long rappel spinning issue

[mcweyen]

I've done a number of long (300+/- ft) free hanging rappels and only had the issue of spinning one time, the time I went first on a Sqwurel. I watched the video and counted 19 total full 360's. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can prevent this in the future?

[mcweyen]

I've considered not using the Sqwurel and instead extending an ATC out with a couple carabiners, using a chest harness to keep my torso upright and then having two hands on the brake strand. Thoughts on this being a solid solution?

[ratagonia]

I've considered not using the Sqwurel and instead extending an ATC out with a couple carabiners, using a chest harness to keep my torso upright and then having two hands on the brake strand. Thoughts on this being a solid solution?

Long rappels generally require (almost a rule) an adjustment to friction while on the rappel. How do you intend to increase your friction?

Tom

[hank moon]

Prior discussion:

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/stop-me-from-spinning-on-long-rappels.20065/ (http://canyoncollective.com/threads/stop-me-from-spinning-on-long-rappels.20065/)
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/for-the-big-ones-rappel-tips-and-devices.20297/
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/physics-on-long-rappells.21862/
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/getting-the-right-friction-on-long-rappels.18955/

[mcweyen]

Maybe I'm wrong in this thinking, but since my long rope (330ft) is 10.5mm, maybe I could get away with using the low friction side of an ATC if I had two hands to control the brake strand? Has anyone tried this?

[Iceaxe]

Maybe I'm wrong in this thinking, but since my long rope (330ft) is 10.5mm, maybe I could get away with using the low friction side of an ATC if I had two hands to control the brake strand? Has anyone tried this?

Not something I'd recommend. I'm still a big ATC fan and that is what I still use most the time mostly because it's small and I'm comfortable with it.

Anyhoo... The problem is the weight of the rope and larger ropes actually make the problem worse. To start the rappel you literally have to lift the rope and feed it through. And at the end of the rappel you just don't have enough friction.

It's easy enough to test on a short rappel. Just coil the long rope and hang it so it doesn't touch the ground and try it. And then just do a short rappel using the end of the rope and you'll know the two extremes.

FWIW - if I was doing a lot of really long free hanging rappels I'd use a rack.

[ratagonia]

Maybe I'm wrong in this thinking, but since my long rope (330ft) is 10.5mm, maybe I could get away with using the low friction side of an ATC if I had two hands to control the brake strand? Has anyone tried this?

"maybe I could get away with..." ===> a week in the hospital (if you are lucky)

Tom

[Iceaxe]

"maybe I could get away with..." ===> a week in the hospital (if you are lucky)

Tom...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/0507a619f8785eb6e01710419e976aae.jpg

[ratagonia]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/0507a619f8785eb6e01710419e976aae.jpg

Thanks Shane. Always looking for new things to read. Did it work for you???

Tom

[ratagonia]

"maybe I could get away with..." ===> a week in the hospital (if you are lucky)

Tom

Example:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?77187-Man-falls-80-feet-while-rappelling-in-Zion-s-Englestead-Hollow&highlight=Englestead

Tom

[2065toyota]

Using an ATC instead of the newer devices like the CRITR is like using a flip phone instead of a smart phone. Yes, it will work, but why?


With the ability to change friction before and after starting the rap and the ability to tie off quickly for free hands use and you don't run the risk of dropping it in the water it is a no brainer to upgrade.

[mcweyen]

So now the question, which I'm not finding a sufficient answer to elsewhere on the web. Does the CRITR2 twist the rope significantly less than the Sqwurel? The Sqwurel twists rope badly enough that I don't like using it unless the rope doesn't have any excess on the bottom, which I can't guarantee if it's a long rappel that I go first on.

[Iceaxe]

All rappel devices based off the figure-8 design twist the rope equally. It's just part of the basic design.

Which is the other reason I still like my flip phone (ATC), but I do know I'm in a small minority of those still using an ATC.

[hank moon]

Does the CRITR2 twist the rope significantly less than the Sqwurel?
mcweyen I have used both devices extensively, and the answer is Yes.

[hank moon]

All rappel devices based off the figure-8 design twist the rope equally. It's just part of the basic design.

While it is true that all 8-based devices tend to twist the rope more than a (properly used) ATC, the degree of twist among such devices is not equal. For example a std. 8 used in "rapide" mode (https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Friction-modes-and-tie-offs-for-the-HUIT) twists less than "normal" mode. A CRITR twists less than a SQWUREL, etc.

Note that it is easy to make an ATC twist the rope (http://rockandice.com/climbing-gear-tips/kinks-be-gone-how-to-rappel-and-lower-without-twisting-the-rope/).

88482
mcweyen - PM sent.

[2065toyota]

The CRITR will still get some twist in the rope. It's really hard to predict when you are going to spin and when you're not. I've had it happen randomly no matter what device. Once you start spinning the only way to stop it is to receive a bottom belay and get all the twists out of the rope below you.

We almost exclusively use rope bags which are stuffed and I've had very little spinning problems. I wonder if there is any correlation with spinning being associate with coiling ropes and throwing them as opposed to being stuffed. Not sure as I've never really thought about it.

Is there any correlation with the speed in which one rappels as to what is causing the spin also?

[twotimer]

Thanks Shane. Always looking for new things to read. Did it work for you???

TomNow that is friggin' funny! Gold star goes to Tom with the quick wit.

[twotimer]

Using an ATC instead of the newer devices like the CRITR is like using a flip phone instead of a smart phone. Yes, it will work, but why?


With the ability to change friction before and after starting the rap and the ability to tie off quickly for free hands use and you don't run the risk of dropping it in the water it is a no brainer to upgrade.BINGO! I was climbing before rappelling in canyons, too...so I have been an old school ATC user as well. Works fine for me, but I'm only 150 lbs.

I've been canyoneering lately with some folks that are very hardcore...they've been doing it nearly every weekend for years. They all use the big CRITR and insist that it's the only way to go.

So I recently bought a nice, pretty new one and look forward to messing it up.

That device also works best with 8mm ropes..."Like bread and butter", I was told.

[ratagonia]

So now the question, which I'm not finding a sufficient answer to elsewhere on the web. Does the CRITR2 twist the rope significantly less than the Sqwurel? The Sqwurel twists rope badly enough that I don't like using it unless the rope doesn't have any excess on the bottom, which I can't guarantee if it's a long rappel that I go first on.

Details matter, in this case the details of the rope path. Critr has the LEAST twisting I have seen on a Figure-8 based Device, Sqwwurrellll about the most.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Is there any correlation with the speed in which one rappels as to what is causing the spin also?

When you rappel faster, you generate less friction, definitely less friction per foot along the rope traveled.

In theory, this should decrease the amount of twist generated. In practice, this definitely seems to be the case.

Tom

[mcweyen]

The spinning incident did occur on a coiled 330ft 10.5mm Sterling HTP rope. In the future, I will not coil for the big drops. Thank you for that tip 2065toyota (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?19869-2065toyota)

[mcweyen]

Details matter, in this case the details of the rope path.

In this instance, it was the big drop in Insomnia. The edge was protected with a car floor mat attached to some roughly 5mm cord.

[Iceaxe]

If coiling twists the rope depends totally on how the rope was coiled and uncoiled. If coiled properly your ropes should have no twists.

[ratagonia]

If coiling twists the rope depends totally on how the rope was coiled and uncoiled. If coiled properly your ropes should have no twists.

It may be more difficult to UNcoil without inducing twists (than to coil it well, twist-wise).

Tom

[mcweyen]

Do you bag your rope for long raps, Tom?

[ratagonia]

Do you bag your rope for long raps, Tom?

Me, I am a fanatic. I bag my ropes for ALL raps. Or at least, pretty close.

I have always considered it as "when someone officially becomes a canyoneer", when they realize how handy rope bags are. If you don't use rope bags, you are just a climber who happens to be in a canyon.

What rope bags are most useful for is deploying the rope. Arrive at the anchor, secure the top of the rope to the anchor, drop the bag. The rope is deployed, no knots, no fuss. And yes, coiling and uncoiling almost always introduces twists in the rope, bagging does not.

Tom

[jman]

Me, I am a fanatic. I bag my ropes for ALL raps. Or at least, pretty close.

I have always considered it as "when someone officially becomes a canyoneer", when they realize how handy rope bags are. If you don't use rope bags, you are just a climber who happens to be in a canyon.

What rope bags are most useful for is deploying the rope. Arrive at the anchor, secure the top of the rope to the anchor, drop the bag. The rope is deployed, no knots, no fuss. And yes, coiling and uncoiling almost always introduces twists in the rope, bagging does not.

Tom

X2.

And another added benefit of a rope bag is when you toss the bag off a rap where you can’t see the bottom ,you can hear when it lands (or not).

If not, the rap isn’t long enough or it got tangled up somewhere, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hank moon]

And another added benefit of a rope bag is when you toss the bag off a rap where you can’t see the bottom ,you can hear when it lands (or not).

That's the liberal view :-)

More conservatively: under the right conditions, you might hear the bag hit something, which may or may not be the intended landing zone.

[mcweyen]

My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.

[ratagonia]

My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.

Do you need a bigger pack? Plenty of Heaps packs in stock here.

Do you go solo alot. It is a surprise for quite a few people, but the bag can be set up for stuffing at the same time other people are rappelling.

etc. that horse has been beat to death. WhatEVER!

Tom

[hank moon]

My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearguide/imlay-rope-silo-2014-changes/

Zip-out foam reduces bag volume, for use in drier canyons.

Bag-a-neering is generally faster than coil-a-neering, all things considered. With a short rope, sure, a good coiler may be able to get that rope coiled and stowed faster than the bagger. But...there are other aspect of rope management. For example in wet canyons, moving rope forward for efficiency is often done by throwing the bag down drops, into deep water. Not a good idea to do that w/coils.

[mcweyen]

I've already got rope bags for up to 200ft. Apparently, I need to start carrying a bigger pack all the time :roll: and add another rope bag for longer ropes. When I've been on trips where everyone knows most of the finer details of canyoneering, it's much easier to make bagging happen quickly. From what I'm gathering, teaching bagging needs to go up higher on the list when working with newer canyoneers.

Thanks for all the info to all who supplied it here.

[Iceaxe]

From what I'm gathering, teaching bagging needs to go up higher on the list when working with newer canyoneers.

Bagging rope is the first thing I teach noobs for two reasons. It's a way they can contribute that is difficult to screw up, and I hate bagging rope.... win, win :-)

[mzamp]

Details matter, in this case the details of the rope path. Critr has the LEAST twisting I have seen on a Figure-8 based Device, Sqwwurrellll about the most.

Tom

^ Yes This

[USofCS]

Long rappels generally require (almost a rule) an adjustment to friction while on the rappel. How do you intend to increase your friction?

Tom
On a side note, can somebody explain the physics behind why you have to add friction toward the end of a long rappel, but don't seem to on shorter rappels? How come the last 50' of a 300' rappel feels very different than the last 50 feet of an 85' rap?

[2065toyota]

On a side note, can somebody explain the physics behind why you have to add friction toward the end of a long rappel, but don't seem to on shorter rappels? How come the last 50' of a 300' rappel feels very different than the last 50 feet of an 85' rap?

Actual physics - no difference - assuming device settings are the same

Mental and physical fatigue play a major role. A lower friction setting is used to start the 300' rap to account for the belay effect of the rope weight, which is not there at the end of the rap if settings are not changed to account for it

[uintafly]

Actual physics - no difference - assuming device settings are the same

Mental and physical fatigue play a major role. A lower friction setting is used to start the 300' rap to account for the belay effect of the rope weight, which is not there at the end of the rap if settings are not changed to account for it

I agree that fatigue is the main factor, but I do wonder if a hot device adds just a little less friction.

[CanyonFreak]

My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.

What kind of minimalist buys a 100m 10.5mm rope? JK but curious what kind of rope it is and why did you chose that diameter?

10.5mm rope has roughly 36% more volume than a 9mm and 72% more volume than an 8mm rope.

Bags don't really add volume but are awkward if you have a small pack. The solution is a larger pack or sling the rope bag over the shoulder on approach. In the canyon you can easily pass it off on a noob during almost any DC even if it isn't hard. Just lie and say "jeez this looks awkward" and they'll usually gladly offer to take it. If they don't fall for it throw it down the drop and pick it up after.

As for time, an efficient or time conscientious group will have someone ready to bag before the last person is down. You have to consider time at the start of the rappel too. How much time is lost when coils are thrown over an edge and then left deciding if it reaches or the coil looks funny after it passes out of view and you pull the rope back up to make sure its not in a rats nest? You can easily chuck a rope bag 20-30 feet out for the drops you can't see the bottom to get that verification of striking ground. Eventually we all succumb to the rope bag unless you are the very stubborn type. Don't resist it :)

Assuming you are a coil master I think the safety factor and reliability of being able to throw a rope off a complex rap or into a waterfall and have a high certainty that there aren't any knots waiting for you is reason enough.