Accident in Birch Hollow.

[moab mark]

http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2017/08/27/jcw-rescue-crews-stay-overnight-with-canyoneering-guide-who-fell-approximately-100-feet/#.WaQOQy9MHqD

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[jman]

...rapping on the pull-cord.

And a guide, nonetheless.

Hopefully he recovers well!


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[hank moon]

...rapping on the pull-cord.

Is the above based on

“It sounds like he must have hooked into the wrong rope,” Alldredge said. “So when he went to go over, it wasn’t on the one that was being held, and he more or less fell straight down.”

?

[jman]

Is the above based on

“It sounds like he must have hooked into the wrong rope,” Alldredge said. “So when he went to go over, it wasn’t on the one that was being held, and he more or less fell straight down.”

?

Indeed. It sounds like that’s what it was, but I may be wrong.

Hopefully SAR will have a blurb on their page about it.


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[Iceaxe]

From my experience Zion Ponderosa "guide" means a college kid that has done the canyon a couple times before but has no formal training.

It will be interesting to understand the cause of the accident if more/accurate information is ever released.

[ratagonia]

From my experience Zion Ponderosa "guide" means a college kid that has done the canyon a couple times before but has no formal training.

It will be interesting to understand the cause of the accident if more/accurate information is ever released.

"college"? If you're lucky!!!

[Scott P]

Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?

[Iceaxe]

Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?Sounds like the victim was using single line technique on double lines.... having a toolbox full of tools doesn't help if ya don't know which tool to use.

[ratagonia]

Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?

debate?

[hank moon]

Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?

It won't be good again until 2047 - unless human cloning perfected before then.

[SlickRock]

I agree with ratagonia that there is nothing to debate... but probably not for the same reason. Again and again these injuries and deaths occur when the single line rappel is employed. Admittedly I too use it extensively. But with all due respect to the long time canyoneers who competently descend Zion's moderate canyons and Utahs more technically advanced canyons, most people (read: most canyoneers) have no business using SLR techniques. We have seen guides and rangers, hot doggers and average Joes, fail to negotiate this rather simple act.

At some point it must be recognized that the technique should not be used by most people.

I find it interesting that helmet-less canyoneers are called out immediately anytime a posted pic appears in these blogs. Yet expert canyoneers are beyond reluctant to acknowledge, much less are they willing to warn those engaging in the sport, that SLR is linked with more severe consequences than any other aspect of canyoneering... with the only possible exception being flash floods. Nor do they educate and re-educate at each unfortunate opportunity.

I don't read all of the threads, so I may be mis-speaking, but I'd like to see you who have already commented on this issue (often dismissively) make a bigger effort to promote SLR safety (and instruction ??) as you do regarding assessing weather conditions and wearing helmets.

It seems to me that the leaders of this sport do a good job of monitoring helmet use, for instance. I never see anyone write that there are alternatives to helmet use or that helmets shouldn't be used. So why is SLR a sacred cow?

So if the community of canyoneers only blames incompetent people in their SLR failures and does nothing to address this issue, then does the community (you know who you are) not have some level of culpability?

So hopefully no one is offended, but I think a little help here from those that have weight in their words is welcomed. It might just prevent some injuries.

[hank moon]

most people (read: most canyoneers) have no business using SLR techniques.

To your point that SRT is inherently more dangerous than DRT, much has been said about that and I won't re-write that book here. Volumes of info on this are available for the interested; here's a good starting point:

http://canyon collective.com/threads/single-strand-vs-double-strand-rappel.20177/#post-87963 (http://canyoncollective.com/threads/single-strand-vs-double-strand-rappel.20177/#post-87963)

There are very few SRT accidents involving a competent person who is mentally and physically uncompromised. Most SRT accidents involve a person getting on the wrong (pull) side of the rope, when the pull rope is unsecured. If I read your post correctly, you are asking why does the expert canyon community not do more to deter incompetent people from using SRT due to the — perceived — greater chance of error inherent in SRT? Is that correct?

[nkanarik]

I don't consider myself an expert, but for what it's worth...when traveling with family / inexperienced folks...

1st man down:usually me:I prefer SRT, where I set it up with

releasable figure 8 contegency
rest of the rope / separate rope as backup belay line


Middle of the group:

Either same set up as above, or...
Same set up as above minus #2, but with fireman belay




Last man down (usually me) - DRT with fireman belay (I'm often the heaviest in the group, which works well for DRT :))

[ratagonia]

As in almost every canyoneering accident I have been able to track down, the victim had toast with jam for breakfast in the morning. We KNOW that toast with jam has a very high glycemic index, and this undoubtedly led directly to the errors made.

[SlickRock]

Both of these recent incidents involved the single line rappel - which adds several additional components (biner block, unsecured pull line, and potentially fast descents) that you don't have with standard double rope rappels. Rappelling already has dangerous elements- ledge exposure, sound anchors or not, rapping off the rope ends, knots for linking ropes, etc. SLR just increases chances for error and we're seeing that manifested here. The occasional canyoneer should not employ SLR - my opinion.

I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used. I'm not convinced the same can be said of the single line rappel.

I don't think mr jones is adding valuable contribution to the conversation by arguing that there is only some correlation to SLR in these cases and not a direct link to these accidents - stop deflecting.

Clearly people are f-ing this technique up. Some are dying. Now, if you feel comfortable with this, then ok. Post the accident report, beat up on the victim and do not offer up your counsel and guidance.

All I'm respectfully asking for... is that the leadership as represented largely in those already posting on this thread... instead of convicting post-accident victims as incompetent, is to continue to educate, instruct, warn and help future canyoneers not make the same mistake. There is weigh to your words... use it well.

All of you guys (moon, jman, iceaxe) are respected for your views - especially mr jones. But you must take responsibility to reiterate and re-educate as the situation demands. This is one of those times. There are new people coming into this sport every day. Help them.

[twotimer]

Slickrock,

I was going thru Mystery solo a few years ago when I came upon you and your group. I was employing the biner block (for the first time, learning it because "everybody seems to be doing it") and we had a short conversation about it. You asked "Why" and I really didn't have an answer.

What you said made complete sense to me and I haven't bothered with it since.

[ratagonia]

Both of these recent incidents involved the single line rappel - which adds several additional components (biner block, unsecured pull line, and potentially fast descents) that you don't have with standard double rope rappels. Rappelling already has dangerous elements- ledge exposure, sound anchors or not, rapping off the rope ends, knots for linking ropes, etc. SLR just increases chances for error and we're seeing that manifested here. The occasional canyoneer should not employ SLR - my opinion.

I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used. I'm not convinced the same can be said of the single line rappel.

I don't think mr jones is adding valuable contribution to the conversation by arguing that there is only some correlation to SLR in these cases and not a direct link to these accidents - stop deflecting.

Clearly people are f-ing this technique up. Some are dying. Now, if you feel comfortable with this, then ok. Post the accident report, beat up on the victim and do not offer up your counsel and guidance.

All I'm respectfully asking for... is that the leadership as represented largely in those already posting on this thread... instead of convicting post-accident victims as incompetent, is to continue to educate, instruct, warn and help future canyoneers not make the same mistake. There is weigh to your words... use it well.

All of you guys (moon, jman, iceaxe) are respected for your views - especially mr jones. But you must take responsibility to reiterate and re-educate as the situation demands. This is one of those times. There are new people coming into this sport every day. Help them.

Canyoneering (at least some of it) involves using ropes. Using ropes requires some skill set. If you don't have that skill set and go out and do things, when you mess up you are likely to get hurt or die. All these accidents involve people who do not have the required skill set.

The skill set required for Single Rope Technique SRT is similar but not the same as that required for Double Rope Technique.

I realize you are of the canyoneering/political party that says every accident is caused by SRT. While I am of the canyoneering/political party that says every accident is caused by screwing up. Some blame Obama, some blame Trump.

It is not my responsibility to educate everyone who suspects they are a canyoneer in proper technique. It's just not. Me and mine (Hank, Ramoo, etc.) have done a huge amount of mentoring over the last 18 years, but no, we cannot keep up.

Rant rant rant. Perhaps you should do something that does more than flapping your gums - like taking beginners out and inflicting some technique on them.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used.

My good friend Louis Johnson died because he was using double-rope technique. If he had been on a single rope, he would not have died. (but it was a lot more complicated than that).

The fellow in Robber's Roost might have died because he was using double-rope technique, though it seems more likely it was a heart attack. His brother would have been able to reach him after his fall, if he had used SRT, and would not have spent several days on a ledge awaiting rescue.

The guy who broke his back on the last rap in Heaps lost control because of DRT. He was "experienced", but this was the first time he had EVER rappelled single-strand. I would suggest that the last rap in Heaps is not a good place to try a technique you had not previously used. (The guy was 24 years old, and had broken his back twice previously... jus' sayin').

Same for Cabe's friend in Pine Creek.

But we have both barked around this tree many times.

That Byron has no idea why SRT is the worldwide standard technique for canyoneering says more about Byron than it does about SRT. You want to use DRT, please, be my guest. Whatever works for you.

But I do offer up my counsel and guidance, perhaps even too much. USE TECHNIQUES THAT YOU UNDERSTAND.

And let me recall for you the two rules of canyoneering - and you only really need two rules:

1. Don't frak it up and die.

and

2. If you break Rule #1, don't take anyone with you.

Tom :moses: :moses: :moses:

[twotimer]

Hey Tom! I'm sure you know where this is, right? Although the folks above me are using a rope on this little feature, I threw my pack and then jumped into the pool...just like I do every time. I also didn't bring a helmet or even a harness...I did the whole thing with a diaper sling. You know what that is, right?

I play by my own rules. Ain't dead yet!

[Iceaxe]

I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception. I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), and SRT does nothing to simplify the system. But since the "Great Ones" (tm) are advocating the system it will remain the standard and more people will continue to die because of it.

Here is just one of the numerous bogley historical threads where I rant about needles death's caused by SRT:

LAMAR & Other Stupid Ideas
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26511-LAMAR-amp-Other-Stupid-Ideas

[hank moon]

87600

87599

[hank moon]

I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception.

What does "standard technique" mean?

[Iceaxe]

If you have to ask you are probably part of the problem.

[twotimer]

LOVE IT, HANK!...Actually, you could push me all the way back to the original Batman series.

Happy Days choked long before Fonzie jumped the shark...when he switched from the blue jacket to the black one and became some kind of guru is when it went downhill. IMO.

[hank moon]

If you have to ask you are probably part of the problem.

Too many (most?) of these discussions derail quickly due to initial assumptions about what the other person is saying. As I am not aware of any "standard technique," I think it's a fair question to clarify what you are trying to say. Unless you don't want to discuss, which is fine...

hank

[hank moon]

Happy Days choked long before Fonzie jumped the shark...when he switched from the blue jacket to the black one and became some kind of guru is when it went downhill. IMO.

Yep. Along similar lines, the Flintstones died when that little green alien guy started making regular appearances...well, prolly before that.

[ratagonia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

[Iceaxe]

^^^YUP^^^

It's all shits and giggles until the next person dies.

[twotimer]

^^^YUP^^^

It's all shits and giggles until the next person dies.Oh, just tryin' to derail two dudes from a snarky smackdown. Y'know, break things up a bit.

[qedcook]

I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception. I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), and SRT does nothing to simplify the system. But since the "Great Ones" (tm) are advocating the system it will remain the standard and more people will continue to die because of it.

I couldn't agree more. I double strand most of the time and single strand when it makes sense. I hate going with "pros" who have been canyoneering 1-7 years, and they keep telling me all the things I'm doing wrong when I double strand. And on at least two separate occasions, these "pros" have gotten my rope stuck by not unclipping the carabiner from the anchor on a single strand system they set up. And guess who has no idea how to ascend the rope to undo their mistake?

Long rant short, the "Great Ones" (tm) make single strand (and many other techniques) a matter of dogma, and no one is willing to do anything different. Super frustrating, and, at times, dangerous.

[hank moon]

> post deleted by author <

[Iceaxe]

What does "standard technique" mean?I just figured most were smart enough to figure it out on their own... But for the intellectually challenged here ya go....

It means if I sit at the first rappel of ***insert name of any popular CP canyon here*** it will be the rappel method used most often.

Or as I said, if you have to ask consider yourself part of the problem. I mean what the hell, you're only killing a couple of people a year when they f**k up SRT.

[qedcook]

@qedcook (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=17500)
Would you mind explaining what you mean by "standard technique"?
Obviously SRT is a tool and cannot in itself be the cause of an accident.
I'm curious about who the "pros" are in your post on SRT/DRT. Care to share?

Like Iceaxe said, it's what people use most commonly. By standard technique, I mean, when I lead a canyon and someone else who's been trained in canyoneering inspects the first rap I set up, they look at me and ask why I'm not single stranding. I've never not had this happen. And it's happened a lot.

By the pros, I mean that all these people that always insist on me using single strand (or at least comment on how unsafe I am with double strand) always mention a canyoneering training course they took from so-and-so or a canyoneering training trip they went on with so-and-so.

Now that I've defined those two things, I think I'm done defining stuff. Most people think I'm usually pretty clear on what I'm saying.

Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.

[Brian in SLC]

Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.

Climbers have given thought to single strand quite awhile ago...(1872 reference below):

87601

Most rope techniques for climbing developed in Europe. Seems like, historically, folks climbing in Europe would use a double rope system for especially harder routes. Makes sense then, that, when rappelling, they'd rappel on both strands of rope.

There's been a few high profile accidents of climbers using SRT and having that system fail them (recent Yosemite rappel gone wrong comes to mind):

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1164065&msg=1165822#msg1165822

I think a few climbers have given some thought to not using tag lines due to a few known accidents out there.

Also, climbing anchors aren't necessarily configured for single rope rappelling:

87602

I started climbing in the early 80's, and, my dad was a climber in the 50's. What was taught back then, whether a dulfersitz or figure eight or whatever technique, was always on doubled ropes.

[qedcook]

Climbers use and talk about single strand, but not nearly as often as they use or talk about double strand.

[hank moon]

Like Iceaxe said, it's what people use most commonly. By standard technique, I mean, when I lead a canyon and someone else who's been trained in canyoneering inspects the first rap I set up, they look at me and ask why I'm not single stranding. I've never not had this happen. And it's happened a lot.

By the pros, I mean that all these people that always insist on me using single strand (or at least comment on how unsafe I am with double strand) always mention a canyoneering training course they took from so-and-so or a canyoneering training trip they went on with so-and-so.

Now that I've defined those two things, I think I'm done defining stuff. Most people think I'm usually pretty clear on what I'm saying.

Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.

qedcook, thanks for clarifying what you mean by "standard technique" - that was helpful. I haven't seen the same thing out there, so your perspective is enlightening. Might be interesting to start a project of gathering field data on SRT usage. For example, spend a day hanging out at every Pine Creek (ZION) rap to observe what folks are doing. Cameras would be even better. Get some real numbers. Hmm....

Also useful to hear what you mean by "the pros" To me, an "pro" is either a literal professional (e.g. an experienced guide) or perhaps simply a competent person (e.g. Bo Beck). There are other possibilities, nuances, etc. Whereas to you, a pro might simply be a random canyoneer being preachy about your choice of technique? Or by "all these people" did you have specific individuals in mind? If so, call 'em out!

re: your question about the climbing community and SRT. As Brian in SLC pointed out, climbers do use SRT. In fact, some climbers are using canyon-style SRT when traveling ultra-light. Cavers are doing this, too. Petzl has promoted a variation of the Reepschnur technique (essentially a backed-up knot block) since the launch of the Grigri belay device in 1991.

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-and-descending-on-multi-pitch-climbs-on-a-single-rope

[hank moon]

Climbers use and talk about single strand, but not nearly as often as they use or talk about double strand.

Yes. Double strand raps might be considered Standard Technique® in the climbing world. And there are reasons for that. Brian already pointed out the traditional use of half or twin ropes in European climbing. There are other reasons. Note that "double rope technique (http://peakhigh.co.za/tips/climbing-tips/ropes-how-to-use/)" in climbing bears no relation to DRT in canyoneering. Apples and Oranges (more like Apples and Durian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTi4ed3p3WAhUP-J8KHUL-BEwQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmigrationology.com%2Fhow-to-love-durian-fruit%2F&psig=AFQjCNHEmjsxIQOG9Y_yhme-D5ijB7C-mw&ust=1505240027046248)). Canyoneers are mostly going down. Climbers are going up, and then down, using ropes for descending only when necessary. Climbers don't like to rappel (generally, culturally). Climbers are not doing 300' raps in a single pitch, or rope length. The list goes on. In short, there are fewer reasons to use SRT in climbing. DRT works fine due to shorter pitch lengths, lack of water hazards, etc. SRT is mostly used in climbing when going ultra-light. This ultra-light approach also exists in canyoneering, but it is one of the weaker reasons to choose SRT, in general. YMMV.

[harness man]

I Do not usually rappel single strand when climbing, but have had to a couple of times on long routes when one of two ropes became damaged.
Whether or not you prefer SRT it can be VERY useful in scenarios where ropes get compromised.:haha:

[Iceaxe]

SRT is a great tool and is the only way to roll in class C canyons. It just shouldn't be the "standard" technique for 90% of the Colorado Plateau canyons unless you have a legitimate reason.

[Scott P]

On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

[ratagonia]

The canyoneering groups on Facebook always tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

Really?

There might be a bit of observer bias on that observation.

Tom

[Scott P]

Really?

There might be a bit of observer bias on that observation.

Tom


Yes, I fully admit that I am biased against those who tell complete noobs that they should use complicated anchoring systems in dry canyons and that they should never use simpler and safer methods.

[twotimer]

A few years back I went to the Leps and the Hogs with a buddy and some folks I didn't know. It was a lead by a gal who just did a canyoneering class and she certainly paid attention there, because she set up everything single line and then rapped last with that pull rope feeding out of the sack on her hip...all nice and purdy.

She set everything up proper, It looked good...but I thought just doing it doubled on most of them would have been just as quick and safer, too.

The point of my post with the picture was that everyone has their way of doing things, It's what we're comfortable with, I guess. But it just seems to me that whenever you tie two ropes together the chance of someone or something getting jacked up is much higher. People just need to double check their shit more.

[Iceaxe]

Really?

There might be a bit of observer bias on that observation.

Tom

I have two daughters that are very talented canyoneers with over 15 years of experiance, but few outside of a tight circle really know who they are because they don't participate in the forums, meet up, facebook, yada, yada.... I bet at least 80% of the time when they are rigging a DRT rappel and a group walks up behind them some good samaritan will come up and offer to help them rig the rappel "correctly" using SRT.

Now it could possibly just be some guys way of trying to hit on the hot blonde chick, but mostly it's just some asshat figuring the hot blonde chick doesn't know shit about canyoneering.

[ratagonia]

The canyoneering groups on Facebook always tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

Maybe I misunderstand your use of the English Language.

Technically, you are saying that EVERY POST on "The canyoneering groups on Facebook" tell everyone (etc. etc.).

Now I know that you do not mean that EVERY POST you have ever seen on one of these FB groups is about this. So, I will not interpret your statement literally.

But please, send me a link to a SINGLE post on a FB group that does what you say.

However, there is a big difference between EVERY post and a SINGLE post. But please, come up with a SINGLE post, then we can count posts on that group. Somehow I suspect that less than 10% of posts on the CRAZIEST, MOST RIGOROUS canyoneering FB group "tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is."

So please, come up with the goods, or apologize for LYING. Which we can politely call Exaggerating, if you want me to be politically correct, and not hurt your poor little feelings.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Maybe I misunderstand your use of the English Language.

Technically, you are saying that EVERY POST on "The canyoneering groups on Facebook" tell everyone (etc. etc.).

Now I know that you do not mean that EVERY POST you have ever seen on one of these FB groups is about this. So, I will not interpret your statement literally.

But please, send me a link to a SINGLE post on a FB group that does what you say.

However, there is a big difference between EVERY post and a SINGLE post. But please, come up with a SINGLE post, then we can count posts on that group. Somehow I suspect that less than 10% of posts on the CRAZIEST, MOST RIGOROUS canyoneering FB group "tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is."

So please, come up with the goods, or apologize for LYING. Which we can politely call Exaggerating, if you want me to be politically correct, and not hurt your poor little feelings.

Tom

Geez, Tom...you sensitive about something?

I'll help...

"This reinforces 3 important things taught by 2 of my great instructors : Rich Carlson (https://www.facebook.com/rcwild?fref=gs&dti=2347211887&hc_location=group) & Klaus Gerhart (https://www.facebook.com/KlausGerhart?fref=gs&dti=2347211887&hc_location=group)
1) A blocked single strand rappel is way safer than "Toss & Go". RIch always reiterated this mantra."


Whew...I'd hate to see Scott get his poor little feelings hurt.

[TommyBoy]

Yes, I fully admit that I am biased against those who tell complete noobs that they should use complicated anchoring systems in dry canyons and that they should never use simpler and safer methods.

Explain to me how SRT is complicated? Yes there is more to it than toss n go, but really you feed the rope through the rapide, make sure the end is on the ground, block it (either knot or biner), and keep the tail up top till LAMAR so it's obvious which side to clip in to. This isn't rocket science, yes there's more going on than DRT, and yes you need to be careful, check each other as you're hooking in, double check the setup, but it's not a "complicated" system. Yes you can screw it up and if you do it can kill you, but the same can be said for DRT.

I'm not saying you "should" use SRT or that it's somehow "better", just that while it does have an extra component involved it's not a super complicated system that is hard to check.

[Scott P]

Maybe I misunderstand your use of the English Language.

Technically, you are saying that EVERY POST on "The canyoneering groups on Facebook" tell everyone (etc. etc.).

Now I know that you do not mean that EVERY POST you have ever seen on one of these FB groups is about this. So, I will not interpret your statement literally.

But please, send me a link to a SINGLE post on a FB group that does what you say.

However, there is a big difference between EVERY post and a SINGLE post. But please, come up with a SINGLE post, then we can count posts on that group. Somehow I suspect that less than 10% of posts on the CRAZIEST, MOST RIGOROUS canyoneering FB group "tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is."

So please, come up with the goods, or apologize for LYING. Which we can politely call Exaggerating, if you want me to be politically correct, and not hurt your poor little feelings.

Tom

Tom, did you see Coast Mountain's posts on the recent thread before they were deleted? The words moron and stupid were specifically said about the post I made about DRT. That's even worse than anything I implied.

Most people are more civil, but there are several people on those forums who say that SRT rappels should always be used by noobs. Do you want names? I will be happy to PM you with them. I suspect that since you already follow that forum, you already know who they are. In fact some of them have posted in the recent thread and you can see the posts for yourself.

As far as my post above, no not every single post is against using DRT.

By saying always, I mean every single thread I have seen on the topic, not every single post.

If I say that there will always be crime in the USA, that doesn't mean that every single person is a criminal and that every single person is committing a crime 100% of the time. Perhaps I could rephrase my post above to say that in every thread I have seen on the subject, there will always be someone telling noobs to use SRT, but I suspect that you already know what I meant.

The above is why I stopped following such forums, only today posting a new thread to reiterate this. Personally I think the latest thread I created only strengthens what I said above:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/564433366947205?view=permalink&id=1594779387245926

With the exception of Tom, does anyone else who reads through the linked thread come up with a different conclusion from what I said above? To me the thread speaks for itself.

And I still hold the same viewpoint as to which is safer for noobs in dry canyons.

PS Tom, what the he**? It seems you are taking a lot of issue with a lot of what I say lately. My feelings aren't hurt, but did I piss you off or something? If so, feel free to PM me.

[Brian in SLC]

Explain to me how SRT is complicated?

Ok...I'll try...


Yes there is more to it than toss n go, but really you feed the rope through the rapide, make sure the end is on the ground, block it (either knot or biner), and keep the tail up top till LAMAR so it's obvious which side to clip in to. This isn't rocket science, yes there's more going on than DRT, and yes you need to be careful, check each other as you're hooking in, double check the setup, but it's not a "complicated" system. Yes you can screw it up and if you do it can kill you, but the same can be said for DRT.

I'm not saying you "should" use SRT or that it's somehow "better", just that while it does have an extra component involved it's not a super complicated system that is hard to check.

Does that help you understand? Ha ha.

Both methods of rappelling can be screwed up, to be sure.

I try to understand why folks like or would use one over the other. I've never understood the desire for a carabiner or knot block and single strand rappel that isn't rigged as a contingency anchor. Or, why, on a short drop with a rope that's more than twice the length of the drop, not in water flow, that folks wouldn't just "toss-n-go". Sure makes pulling the rope down easier...(nothing to get stuck).

Closest call I've ever had rappelling was on double strand, when, I only had one strand clipped into my locking carabiner but both strands through the ATC. Had I let go of the anchor when I leaned back...probably not survivable.

I think if you diligently double check your set up, weighting the rappel device and actually go on rappel to check that everything's "ok", prior to unclipping from the anchor, then in either double or single strand scenarios, you should flush out any issues with at least being "on rappel" correctly.

[Scott P]

My post (which was obviously made to prove the point above):

I have a serious concern. In the past I have seen a lot of posts telling those new to canyoneering that they shouldn't be using double rope rappels and that single rappels are safer, even in dry canyons.

This is simply not true and is bad practice. The simplest and safest methods should be learned first. Single rope rappels are advanced techniques and should be reserved for the more experienced.

The risk factor is much greater with single rope rappels because they are much more complicated. The risk of getting stuck on rappel is much less than that of screwing up a single line rappel.

Although it is extremely rare, if you really are concerned about someone getting stuck, then the best practice is simply to carry a second rope.

The above does not say that single line rappels don't have there place. It is an important skill that is useful in class C canyons and an advanced technique that is very useful if a rope gets damaged in a canyon. Still, the basics should be leaned first.

-A concerned canyoneer


Thanks!


Cut and paste of some random responses (minus the ones mentioning moron and stupid from Coast Mountains):

Many years on only DRT = skilled; sounds like an oxymoron. (For the record I didn't say I have only done DRT).

I need to spend less time on Facebook.I am hoping the OP is joking.

You just can't make a Blanket Statement like that and have people that will agree with you.

Scott Patterson (https://www.facebook.com/scott.patterson.9275?fref=gc&dti=564433366947205&hc_location=ufi), are you saying new people to canyoneering should know how to convert to a lower, convert to a haul or perform a pick-off with that extra rope? Your OP said new canyoneers.

Even if someone is just beginning, I think they should learn good techniques - hopefully they are going out with someone that has some experience too. IMHO double rope rappels should be used sparingly (Very civil post though).

To me, I think it's pretty clear as to what is being said here. I stand by my statement.

[ratagonia]

By saying always, I mean every single thread I have seen on the topic, not every single post.



It would be easier to discuss things with you if you said what you meant, rather than something else.

Tom

[Scott P]

It would be easier to discuss things with you if you said what you meant, rather than something else.

Tom

OK, Tom, fair enough, but I think my point still stands. I will edit it to be better.

How is this? I edited the original post.

On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

[ratagonia]

OK, Tom, fair enough, but I think my point still stands. I will edit it to be better.

How is this? I edited the original post.

On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.




That is so far from your original claim as to be practically meaningless.

But let me take the bait anyway.

That is not what I see. What I see is that many posts suggest that learning SRT in addition to DRT is beneficial to one's canyoneering education. Once in a while I see the meanness you imply is there all the time, but only once in a while. Most of the people I canyoneer with use a mix of SRT and DRT, and recognize that there are appropriate places to apply each.

If anything, what *I* see is a ranting by some any time an accident comes up about HOW AMAZINGLY DANGEROUS SRT techniques are.

You hear and see one thing, I hear and see the opposite.

Selective hearing.

Tom

[Scott P]

What I see is that many posts suggest that learning SRT in addition to DRT is beneficial to one's canyoneering education. Once in a while I see the meanness you imply is there all the time, but only once in a while. Most of the people I canyoneer with use a mix of SRT and DRT, and recognize that there are appropriate places to apply each

I would agree with the above concept that both methods should be learned, but some post are like that and many aren't. I have provided some examples and that thread was even started after I made the original post. I already knew what would happen when I made that post.

[Scott P]

If anything, what *I* see is a ranting by some any time an accident comes up about HOW AMAZINGLY DANGEROUS SRT techniques are.

You hear and see one thing, I hear and see the opposite.

I have also seen and heard those rants as well. I just happen to agree with them on occasion, even if they aren't always as civil as I would like. The issue isn't which side is meaner, but which side has is safer.

So, I do see the rants you speak of.

I just don't think that SRT rappels are always (or even generally) safer for noobs in dry canyons. It would take a lot more than forum posts to convince me otherwise. Even though I respect you, and will admit that you are more knowlegable than me in many aspects of canyoneering, I still don't think you could convince me of the above.

[nkanarik]

:popcorn:

[Scott P]

I was thinking of taking some noobs down U-Turn Canyon soon.

Here is a recent anchor photo in U-Turn:

87606

Should I use this one, or one of the others?:

87607

87608

OK, I do know that no one was telling anyone they have to use these methods, but I guess I just can't see making things complicated. I just prefer simple; that's all.

[TommyBoy]

Brian in SLC thanks for nothing, the whole point of my post is that SRT ISN"T complicated so just quoting me with some highlights does nothing. The only really extra step is adding the block for SRT vs DRT since you have to do step one for DRT as well in fact you have to do it twice to make sure both ends are on the ground. Step three is slightly different for DRT vs SRT but it's still there making sure you hook in properly, and step 4 is only a concern for LAMAR who should be a skilled canyoneer and extra careful.

[ratagonia]

I was thinking of taking some noobs down U-Turn Canyon soon.

Here is a recent anchor photo in U-Turn:

87606

Should I use this one, or one of the others?:

87607

87608

OK, I do know that no one was telling anyone they have to use these methods, but I guess I just can't see making things complicated. I just prefer simple; that's all.

You are cherry-picking a few pictures from the Canyon Rigging website. If you read those threads, you will see that the dominant theme on those posts was "what the heck you doing? so so complicated! Don't do this!"

----

Plus, what does this have to do with your claim?

Your claim has been reduced to "once in a while, someone implies that someone else is stupid for not using Single Rope Technique". People showing these whacky riggings were not implying that anyone who does not use these whacky riggings is stupid.

:moses:

[Scott P]

You are cherry-picking a few pictures from the Canyon Rigging website. If you read those threads, you will see that the dominant theme on those posts was "what the heck you doing? so so complicated! Don't do this!

OK, I agree. Don't do this.

[Scott P]

Your claim has been reduced to "once in a while, someone implies that someone else is stupid for not using Single Rope Technique".

It is every single thread on the subject, not "every once in a while". Maybe it's every once in a while that someone uses the word stupid, but it is on every single thread on the subject that someone says that SRT is safer than DRT in dry canyons, even for noobs. I already provided several examples. It seems that you are trying to argue just for the sake of arguing.

I provided several examples; now it is your turn. Show me one thread on the subject on that forum where someone did not suggest that SRT is safer than DRT for noobs, even in dry canyons.

You already know what I mean and are trying to twist it around.

[Brian in SLC]

@Brian in SLC (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=432) thanks for nothing, the whole point of my post is that SRT ISN"T complicated so just quoting me with some highlights does nothing. The only really extra step is adding the block for SRT vs DRT since you have to do step one for DRT as well in fact you have to do it twice to make sure both ends are on the ground. Step three is slightly different for DRT vs SRT but it's still there making sure you hook in properly, and step 4 is only a concern for LAMAR who should be a skilled canyoneer and extra careful.

You asked for an explanation and then provided one for yourself.

The whole point, which you originally helped point out, is that SRT is more complicated.

Then, you said it's "not a super complicated system".

Now you're saying it isn't complicated?

You're at least consistently inconsistent.

Which is more complicated?

87609

87610

87611

What's amusing (and somewhat telling of the situation) is...try a Google search for "canyoneering rappel anchor" images.

Look at all that hot mess of complication!

Kinda funny.

Toss-n-go. Why complicate it?

[TommyBoy]

Fine if you want to split hairs SRT is more COMPLEX than DRT, but by the laymans usage of the word complicated SRT is NOT complicated with only 3-4 steps. All that aside if anything more complex than this
http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=87611&d=1505246026

has you confused then you have no business being the trip leader of a canyon any way.

[Scott P]

Fine if you want to split hairs SRT is more COMPLEX than DRT, but by the laymans usage of the word complicated SRT is NOT complicated with only 3-4 steps. All that aside if anything more complex than this
http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=87611&d=1505246026

has you confused then you have no business being the trip leader of a canyon any way.

Maybe so, but several people (including the person whom this thread is about) are getting confused and injured or killed.

[qedcook]

To me, I think it's important to distinguish complicated versus error-prone. One technique can be as simple as another technique, but it can still be more error-prone. I personally think SRT is both more complicated and more error-prone. Of course, SRT has it's place, but why make the more complicated, more error-prone technique your default technique?

[TommyBoy]

The main point of my argument is that its not hard to setup correctly and inspect and no matter how error prone or error proof something is if you aren't being careful eventually you will have an accident. I've seen this happen several times where myself and others have clipped into a DRT setup and only snagged one of the lines through the biner attached to the device. Since we were paying attention to what we were doing we noticed it and clipped the second line through, but it is carelessness and or being in a hurry and forgetting to double check your setup that kills people not DRT vs SRT. Either one is safe and not difficult to set up properly all it takes is a few extra seconds to double check before weighting the line. I use both, granted I use SRT more often, its just my habit, but on short drops DRT is quick and easy to setup and so I use it.

I think one argument for using SRT exclusively is that there are times where it is necessary even in dry canyons and some beginners forget to double check the setup so if you are switching back and forth between the two a beginner might clip into one line when its setup as DRT or maybe clip into both when its SRT with a knot on the pull side and run into trouble.

[Phavant]

The same people that are screwing up SRT steps are just as likely to screw up the DRT steps. It comes down to paying attention and understanding they systems and their faults.

[harness man]

This has been a lively revisit to an old theme.
My general take-a-way is that canyoneering is dangerous
As in, REALLY DANGEROUS
Just as in rock climbing, Noobs loose in canyons without training or experienced companions is VERY RISKY stuff.
DRT is great, but it is NOT the 'best' practice in some situations, and SRT is NOT required for every drop.

[RyanGJ]

This has been a lively revisit to an old theme.
My general take-a-way is that canyoneering is dangerous
As in, REALLY DANGEROUS
Just as in rock climbing, Noobs loose in canyons without training or experienced companions is VERY RISKY stuff.
DRT is great, but it is NOT the 'best' practice in some situations, and SRT is NOT required for every drop.

This should be the take-away. All canyoneering techniques simply a tool to put in the box, you pull out the tool you need for the situation you're in for the canyon you're in. Why attempt to present DRT and SRT as a black and white (aka 'standard of practice') choice?

For example I live in Grand Junction and Arches NP is an easy access playground. The use of DRT (arguably poor DRT) has resulted in massive and permanent rope grooves that threaten the very existence of the sport in the national park. Here SRT, and even more explicitly, using a fiddle stick or other similar device can eliminate rope grooves entirely (and in many other CP canyons).

Do I think fiddle sticks should be 'standard of practice' for canyoneering? Not at all. However for certain canyons it is the proper tool and a superior method. In other situations it could be out right dangerous to use it.

Arguing the DRT is superior because it has seen greater adoption in climbing is not exactly solid proof. Just pick up any copy of Accidents in North American Mountaineering and you will find rappelling DRT has killed many climbers.

As for how complicated each set-up really is relative to the person setting it up. For an experienced rigger SRT may actually be the lesser complicated system as there is no risk of uneven ends and less risk of rappling of the end of the rope. Additionally, it can be much quicker to deploy a SRT set up since you only need to get as much rope out as needed for the rappel.

Other may find greater simplicity in DRT as you are not using a block, but the technique it has its disadvantages as well.

There are pros and cons to both. The sport of canyoneering is enriched by understanding these and deploying the correct tool at the correct time and place.

I believe the reason this issue drags out time and time again is that the context is often lost. No one method is good for all canyons. You can stick to DRT only, but please have a system to eliminate your rope groves. That would be a great challenge in many of the canyons in Arches.

What about that anchor that is around a corner or far back from the edge? SRT and a fiddle may provide the fastest, safest, and least environmentally damaging method in some situations.

There is simply no single solution to how to anchor your rappels. A poorly implemented DRT is just as deadly as a poorly implemented SRT. A tool box is required and the the canyoneer must use their judgement on each and every situation. The rope system is not what fails, it's how it was used.

[qedcook]

To me, it's not just a question of whether one is "better". It's a question of whether one is being promoted or pushed too much, so much so that it unintentionally becomes a standard.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

My concern is one method is being highly promoted causing noobs to adopt it when another method would be better/safer/easier/simpler.

It's great to have a toolbox full of tools, but it's also important to know how to choose the correct tool for the job.

When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

[Brian in SLC]

For example I live in Grand Junction and Arches NP is an easy access playground. The use of DRT (arguably poor DRT) has resulted in massive and permanent rope grooves that threaten the very existence of the sport in the national park. Here SRT, and even more explicitly, using a fiddle stick or other similar device can eliminate rope grooves entirely (and in many other CP canyons).

My opinion is that DRT during an actual rappel puts less force on the rock than SRT. So, whilst rappelling, it'll have less occasion to create rope grooves.

And, if you're pulling your rope down, whether DRT or SRT, if the rope travels across an edge, in the soft rock of Arches, it'll create a deep groove.

So, I wouldn't put the rope grooves in Arches on DRT per se. Anchor position is more important, IMHO.


Arguing the DRT is superior because it has seen greater adoption in climbing is not exactly solid proof. Just pick up any copy of Accidents in North American Mountaineering and you will find rappelling DRT has killed many climbers.

Actually, no it hasn't. Rappelling accidents in general are less than 4% of all climbing accidents. And, when you peel back and look at cause, nearly no fatalities involving climbers and rappelling are related to double ropes per se.

The big causes are failed anchor. Next might be unequal rope lengths or rope too short but its a pretty small amount of fatalities (nearly none). Certainly not "many" climbers and not in "any copy" of what used to be called ANAM but is now called "Accidents in North American Climbing".

Looking through the database (fully searchable), the Red Rocks accident in Solar Slab gully comes up from 2015:

On December 26, three climbers finished the classic three-pitch route Johnny Vegas (5.7) in Red Rock’s Oak Creek Canyon. The three stopped for a brief lunch at about 11 a.m. on the terrace at the top of Johnny Vegas to consider whether they should continue up Solar Slab or rappel to the ground. Because of the cold and windy conditions, they decided to rappel the Solar Slab Gully instead of climbing any higher. The two females in the party made the first rappel from a less commonly used bolted anchor to safely reach an anchor on a large, bushy ledge. As the third member rappelled to join them, he fell approximately 100 feet, landing on the ledge where they were waiting. His partners called for help with a cell phone. Despite efforts to revive their fallen partner, he was deceased when LVMPD Search and Rescue (SAR) personnel arrived. The two uninjured climbers were assisted down the two remaining rappels by SAR.
ANALYSIS
It is difficult to definitively determine the cause of the victim’s fall. There was no evidence of a failure in the anchor or a piece of personal equipment. The distance from the rappel anchor to the ledge below is greater than 100 feet, and their dynamic lead rope was measured to be 200 feet in length. The victim was carrying a 6mm “pull cord,” sometimes used by climbers to retrieve a lead rope from below. Strangely, the pull cord and the primary rope were not connected.
It is believed the victim initially tied the lead rope to the anchor and his partners individually rappelled on this single strand to the ledge. He then likely rearranged the rappel setup to include the pull cord, so that he could retrieve the main rope after completing the rappel. Because the two-bolt anchor and chains remained intact but the ropes were not connected, it seems that when he weighted the lead rope it was not supported by the anchor and allowed him to fall to the ledge below.
Upon inspection, the lead rope and pull cord had no damage. The lead rope had no knots or hitches. The pull cord had a figure 8 on a bight at one end that was clipped into a closed and locked screw-gate carabiner. The climber’s partners report that when he struck the ledge the lead rope was threaded through his rappel device, approximately 15 feet from the end that had been secured to the anchor, but they disconnected him to facilitate CPR.
The evidence suggests he attempted to set up a “biner block” rappel anchor, threading the lead rope through the anchor bolts and then tying it to the carabiner clipped to the pull cord. He likely either failed to connect the two ropes, tied the lead rope to the carabiner improperly, or tied the wrong knot (e.g., a Munter hitch instead of a clove hitch. Click here (http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213944/Rappel-Failure-Inadequate-Anchor) for a report of a similar rappelling accident in 2015.) (Source: Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Search and Rescue.)

[hank moon]

To me, it's not just a question of whether one is "better". It's a question of whether one is being promoted or pushed too much, so much so that it unintentionally becomes a standard.

I do agree that SRT seems to be used un-necessarily on many occasions. But the cause of this is unclear. The focus in these threads is on the narrow (and unfounded) idea that SRT is being "promoted to newbies by the 'pros' or 'the great ones'." There is also a strong insistence that SRT has become the "standard" technique used as a default by most canyoneers. Yet no-one is able to convincingly show that either assertion is true.

Here's a brief ramble through some of what I think is going on (re: accident causation, the roots of this thread, etc., not in any recognizable order):

The Gee-Whiz Factor.
Around 1999-2000, a bunch of people I know took up canyoneering. Some of them learned Euro SRT techniques from Rich Carlson (e.g. me). I was probably doing as much promoting of SRT as anyone back in the early aughts, when I thought a blocked strand was the coolest thing around, allowing fun techniques not possible with DRT (e.g. guided rappel). I think a lot of people on this forum went through a "gee-whiz-that's-cool-i-didn't-know-about-that" phase with the bag of tricks RC was showing around. It's a normal dynamic, to want to show off your stuff after learning something new. So there's that. And I'm sure this dynamic continues to this day, especially with people who already know a little about rope techniques, whose minds are perhaps more ripe for being blown than those of the pristine newbie.

People get into habits
Humans form new habits quickly. Sometimes for good reason: good habits can consistently produce good outcomes, which is especially important when your life is on the line. Of course bad habits can have the opposite effect. And some bad habits aren't obvious. Anyone who is "always" using the same rope technique (e.g. SRT or DRT) to approach every obstacle will eventually get into trouble by doing so, even when that same wonderful technique has served them well 100s of times before.

Authority / rote learning
Too often, vertical travelers simply "do what they were taught" and fail to understand the nuances of the techniques they are using. They also fail to understand that they fail to understand.

Exceeding abilities
People often overestimate their abilities. So much so that "exceeding abilities" is a standard accident-causation factor in ANAM (http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198802500/Fall-on-Rock-Stranded-Exceeding-Abilities-Inadequate-Equipment-Arizona-Camelback-Mountain). How does this happen? Very dangerous topic - you go first. Here's a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

People favor simple stories, with simple conclusions/morals
Example #1: canyoneer falls, rigged on wrong side of unsecured pull line in SRT setup. Moral: Another death due to SRT! End of story. Example #2: Granny spills hot coffee in lap in McDonald's drive-thru, gets 3rd degree burns, sues McDonalds for millions. Moral: Another frivolous lawsuit! End of story. I mention this lawsuit b/c I see parallels in these accident discussions, in the way that many view lawsuits. In accidents and lawsuits, there is a tremendous amount of detail. The details are vital to understand what happened. But...most of us don't care for details. We want a simple story. In the famous McDonald's coffee-granny lawsuit, the details reveal that the suit was not frivolous and that in fact the public does not know how much money was involved in the settlement. Despite this, it is a persistent urban legend that this is a prime example of a frivolous lawsuit. Confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) applies. Lack of curiosity applies.

re: the accident that inspired this thread. Note that few verifiable details of the accident have been published in this thread. Until we know the details, there is little point in attempting a serious analysis of the accident. Yet it seems that many here have already decided the cause(s) of this accident, and are using this to reinforce their preconceived story about it. Confirmation bias applies. Lack of curiosity applies.

Forum dynamics
A lot of short posts, one-liners and meme-baiting tends to happen on these forums. Very few fact-based discussions. Why? People are at work, people like simple stories, facts are less interesting, there's a potential book on every topic, yet no time to write it, etc. People hiding behind screen names. Lack of vulnerability. Most of what happens here (and on any forum) is attention getting and interaction-seeking. Post something, and get a reaction! Fun! Stuff gets posted out of boredom and provocation, more than a willingness to truly engage with others and seriously explore a topic. There's also the fact that many posters are at work when on forums, and so have limited time and attention span. Speaking of which, this post is over. I just realized I'm starting to write a highly disorganized book here. And no-one's gonna read it. I tried to find a meme to express all the above, but leave that post to someone else. :-)


Further reading on accident causation for the curious: http://itrsonline.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Byrd.2002.pdf

[ratagonia]

Red Rocks accident in Solar Slab gully comes up from 2015:

On December 26, three climbers finished the classic three-pitch route Johnny Vegas (5.7) in Red Rock’s Oak Creek Canyon. The three stopped for a brief lunch at about 11 a.m. on the terrace at the top of Johnny Vegas to consider whether they should continue up Solar Slab or rappel to the ground. Because of the cold and windy conditions, they decided to rappel the Solar Slab Gully instead of climbing any higher. The two females in the party made the first rappel from a less commonly used bolted anchor to safely reach an anchor on a large, bushy ledge. As the third member rappelled to join them, he fell approximately 100 feet, landing on the ledge where they were waiting. His partners called for help with a cell phone. Despite efforts to revive their fallen partner, he was deceased when LVMPD Search and Rescue (SAR) personnel arrived. The two uninjured climbers were assisted down the two remaining rappels by SAR.
ANALYSIS
It is difficult to definitively determine the cause of the victim’s fall. There was no evidence of a failure in the anchor or a piece of personal equipment. The distance from the rappel anchor to the ledge below is greater than 100 feet, and their dynamic lead rope was measured to be 200 feet in length. The victim was carrying a 6mm “pull cord,” sometimes used by climbers to retrieve a lead rope from below. Strangely, the pull cord and the primary rope were not connected.
It is believed the victim initially tied the lead rope to the anchor and his partners individually rappelled on this single strand to the ledge. He then likely rearranged the rappel setup to include the pull cord, so that he could retrieve the main rope after completing the rappel. Because the two-bolt anchor and chains remained intact but the ropes were not connected, it seems that when he weighted the lead rope it was not supported by the anchor and allowed him to fall to the ledge below.
Upon inspection, the lead rope and pull cord had no damage. The lead rope had no knots or hitches. The pull cord had a figure 8 on a bight at one end that was clipped into a closed and locked screw-gate carabiner. The climber’s partners report that when he struck the ledge the lead rope was threaded through his rappel device, approximately 15 feet from the end that had been secured to the anchor, but they disconnected him to facilitate CPR.
The evidence suggests he attempted to set up a “biner block” rappel anchor, threading the lead rope through the anchor bolts and then tying it to the carabiner clipped to the pull cord. He likely either failed to connect the two ropes, tied the lead rope to the carabiner improperly, or tied the wrong knot (e.g., a Munter hitch instead of a clove hitch. Click here (http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213944/Rappel-Failure-Inadequate-Anchor) for a report of a similar rappelling accident in 2015.) (Source: Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Search and Rescue.)

Excellent example of an accident CAUSED by DRT.

Since this person was a dedicated user of DRT, when he thought he needed to do some SRT, he had no training and GUESSED what he was supposed to do. He guessed wrong.

If this person had been trained in SRT, they would be alive today. They were not trained in SRT because they worship at the Church of the Holy Double Strand.

---

See how confirmation bias works?

I see a lot of accidents from people using SRT with almost no training in it. You know, saw a friend do it once or twice, saw it on the internet, etc. To me, the problem is not this technique or that technique, but using techniques that one is not trained in. Does this happen with DRT? In a way - which results in people rapping off the end of their ropes while double-strand rappelling. But really, the problem is using techniques that one is not proficient in. Don't do this.

:moses:

[qedcook]

As a follow-up to recent discussions (and maybe this needs a different thread), I went canyoneering this weekend. I got to the first rappel of the canyon, and there was a larger group ahead of us. They were nice enough to let us use their rope to rappel so we could go ahead. I saw the clove hitch on a biner block and asked if I could tie a figure eight on the rope.

Before I said anything else, I thought to myself: "There's no point in mentioning that the clove hitch has some known weaknesses. People get so entrenched in what they learned from instructors when they very first started canyoneering that they never let go of it, even in the face of contrary evidence." But I decided to mention it anyway. I casually said that the clove hitch can slip if the knot moves to the curved part of the carabiner. I suggested looking up videos of how it slips. The response I received was: "I don't trust dubious YouTube videos for my canyoneering."

I wondered how my advice might have been received if I had said: "Tom Jones posted on his website recently the potential dangers of the clove hitch." (Sorry to pick on you, Tom.)

As I said recently on here, it's not just a question of whether one technique is "better" than another. It's a question of whether one technique is being promoted or pushed too much, so much so that it unintentionally becomes a standard. And then when that standard needs adjusting with new evidence, people are too entrenched in their ways to change.

[TommyBoy]

Climate change is Bogus I don't trust no science!!!!!!

[ratagonia]

As a follow-up to recent discussions (and maybe this needs a different thread), I went canyoneering this weekend. I got to the first rappel of the canyon, and there was a larger group ahead of us. They were nice enough to let us use their rope to rappel so we could go ahead. I saw the clove hitch on a biner block and asked if I could tie a figure eight on the rope.

Before I said anything else, I thought to myself: "There's no point in mentioning that the clove hitch has some known weaknesses. People get so entrenched in what they learned from instructors when they very first started canyoneering that they never let go of it, even in the face of contrary evidence." But I decided to mention it anyway. I casually said that the clove hitch can slip if the knot moves to the curved part of the carabiner. I suggested looking up videos of how it slips. The response I received was: "I don't trust dubious YouTube videos for my canyoneering."

I wondered how my advice might have been received if I had said: "Tom Jones posted on his website recently the potential dangers of the clove hitch." (Sorry to pick on you, Tom.)

As I said recently on here, it's not just a question of whether one technique is "better" than another. It's a question of whether one technique is being promoted or pushed too much, so much so that it unintentionally becomes a standard. And then when that standard needs adjusting with new evidence, people are too entrenched in their ways to change.

Good on ya. A lot depends on the presentation. Coming in cold, hard to figure out the presentation that will be effective.

Birch Hollow, first rappel, there is another rappel line 40 feet to the right (facing downcanyon) that is shorter, cleaner and allows passing.

Tom

[qedcook]

Good on ya. A lot depends on the presentation. Coming in cold, hard to figure out the presentation that will be effective.

Birch Hollow, first rappel, there is another rappel line 40 feet to the right (facing downcanyon) that is shorter, cleaner and allows passing.

Tom

I'm not sure I follow, but I tried to be nice about the presentation of the information, if that's what you're referring to. FYI, this exchange of mine did not happen in Birch Hollow.

[ratagonia]

I'm not sure I follow, but I tried to be nice about the presentation of the information, if that's what you're referring to. FYI, this exchange of mine did not happen in Birch Hollow.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes. I have a distinct advantage as a one-name celebrity in the canyoneering world.

T