LDS Church cuts Varsity and Venture programs in 2018

[whansen]

I wonder how this will affect approval for the older age groups wanting to do high adventure activities like climbing and canyoneering.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=44204644&nid=1016&title=lds-church-to-no-longer-participate-in-varsity-venture-scouting


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[tallsteve]

I'm sure they've taken all that into consideration. From my perspective I'm not surprised and I'm sure this has been in the works for a few years. The head of the local BSA council said on KSL this morning that the BSA's program for the 14-18 year olds has never really taken off with the church. Last time I was in Young Men's a few years ago, we used our own program we found online, doing our own thing, and never used anything BSA for our 14-18 year olds.

[Sombeech]

Keep in mind, KSL.com is getting them clicks, they'll structure the story in a way that enrages the average reader, making it sound like the LDS Church doesn't care about boys 14-18 years old.

The Scouting program is just a section of the Young Men criteria, and they wouldn't walk away from the Boy Scout program without a replacement, which will be "in house".

I guess now people won't be able to get mad at Mormons anymore when they see Boy Scouts vandalizing the canyon walls, and that will be a huge bummer.

[Scott P]

Keep in mind, KSL.com (http://ksl.com/) is getting them clicks, they'll structure the story in a way that enrages the average reader, making it sound like the LDS Church doesn't care about boys 14-18 years old.

KSL is 100% owned by the LDS Church.

[uintafly]

But who is going to burn down the Uintas now? :)

[uintafly]

Keep in mind, KSL.com is getting them clicks, they'll structure the story in a way that enrages the average reader, making it sound like the LDS Church doesn't care about boys 14-18 years old.

The Scouting program is just a section of the Young Men criteria, and they wouldn't walk away from the Boy Scout program without a replacement, which will be "in house".

I guess now people won't be able to get mad at Mormons anymore when they see Boy Scouts vandalizing the canyon walls, and that will be a huge bummer.

In those people's defense, what is the % of boy scout troops in Utah sponsored by the Mormon church? I would guess over 90%.

[qedcook]

But who is going to burn down the Uintas now? :)

That's hilarious!!!!

[Brian in SLC]

Wonder how this relates to the drop in retention in the church?

Thoughts?

[Scott P]

Wonder how this relates to the drop in retention in the church?

Thoughts?

Unrelated. The LDS Church has been working on a plan to transition into a more church specific youth program for quite a while. The main reason being that Boy Scouts are supposed to be multi-denominational until of based on LDS specific doctrine. Therefore in Boy Scouts they can't teach LDS themed and LDS specific Doctrines. With the transition, emphasis is going to be more on Priesthood and Mission preparation. Several of us were told that it was going to happen, we just didn't know exactly when.

[Brian in SLC]

Therefore in Boy Scouts they can't teach LDS themed and LDS specific Doctrines. With the transition, emphasis is going to be more on Priesthood and Mission preparation. Several of us were told that it was going to happen, we just didn't know exactly when.

Exactly...so...cause and effect?

Lowering the missionary age and distancing from the Scouts might be an intended cause and hopeful effect on retention of especially younger members?

Outside looking in, seems part of a strategy.

I don't doubt for a second that these types of changes are very well thought out.

Be interesting to see the results.

[Scott P]

and distancing from the Scouts might be an intended cause and hopeful effect on retention of especially younger members?

It's more than that. The LDS Church wants a more customized program. Plus, there are more LDS members outside the United States than in the United States and the BSA is only for youth in the United States.

The BSA's decision to accept gay leaders and the BSA's recent announcement of consideration of admitting girls are factors as well.

Although it hasn't been mentioned yet, undoubtedly the financial cost of the scouting program is also a factor.

[accadacca]

Lotta clickbait out there on several new outlets. "Boy Scouts getting dropped by LDS Church..."
Flame wars ensue and comments fly on social media. :roflol:

[devo_stevo]

But who is going to burn down the Uintas now? :)Don't worry. They are still supporting the Boy Scouts. There are plenty of 12 and 13 year olds capable of taking care of this problem.

[devo_stevo]

Exactly...so...cause and effect?

Lowering the missionary age and distancing from the Scouts might be an intended cause and hopeful effect on retention of especially younger members?

Outside looking in, seems part of a strategy.

I don't doubt for a second that these types of changes are very well thought out.

Be interesting to see the results.I think this is absolutely correct. Just look at the effect that lowering the mission age had on the number of missionaries out there. The numbers were pretty stagnant for years at right around 40,000-45,000 or so until they changed that. Overnight almost that number jumped to over 60,000.

I've wondered for a long time why they spend so much time with the young women talking about spirituality and gospel topics while that is pretty much ignored in the young men program except on Sundays. I would think that this might just be part of the retention problems we are having with the young folks today also.

And yes, it's all very planned out. I'm sure of that.

[whansen]

I also wonder how this change will affect the BSA high adventure bases like the Grand Tetons. Can a group thats not registered with the BSA even go. If not thats going to drop their revenue and they may have to make some changes to survive. I sure loved going to that base as a youth!

[Sombeech]

KSL is 100% owned by the LDS Church.

Correct, and I'm a writer for them and I know they still want them clicks. They could have titled it "Boy Scouts program getting replaced with...." but if they just title it that the LDS Church is dropping Boy Scouts, people will click.

That, in itself can seem a little unethical, and I'm not certain how much involved the Church is with the operations of KSL and KSL.com, but there are plenty of non LDS folks there too, and I assume they've got some decent room to operate per their own discretion. I'm not sure though.

[Sombeech]

Just look at the effect that lowering the mission age had on the number of missionaries out there. The numbers were pretty stagnant for years at right around 40,000-45,000 or so until they changed that. Overnight almost that number jumped to over 60,000.

The numbers grew only temporarily because they had 19-21 year olds now combined with 18 year olds, but this number will drop back down close to the prior average once the majority of 20-21- year olds come home, and then it will just be 18-20 year olds out on missions.

[devo_stevo]

The numbers grew only temporarily because they had 19-21 year olds now combined with 18 year olds, but this number will drop back down close to the prior average once the majority of 20-21- year olds come home, and then it will just be 18-20 year olds out on missions.I hadn't thought of that, but I'm sure it's a big part of the increase. I do think that the average will still be higher than before. I know a lot of young folks that went off the college the first year and came back with a different outlook on life and things. Many of which had plans to go on missions, but didn't.

[double moo]

I hadn't thought of that, but I'm sure it's a big part of the increase. I do think that the average will still be higher than before. I know a lot of young folks that went off the college the first year and came back with a different outlook on life and things. Many of which had plans to go on missions, but didn't.

I think that the average will stay a little higher because they are getting a lot more sisters out than before. A lot of the seemed to go because they were finishing college with no good prospects in sight.

[accadacca]

When the Boy Scouts of America starts admitting girls, the LDS Church will drop scouting. Mark my words.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scout-leaders-discuss-offering-more-opportunities-girls-n754541

[whansen]

When the Boy Scouts of America starts admitting girls, the LDS Church will drop scouting. Mark my words.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scout-leaders-discuss-offering-more-opportunities-girls-n754541
They have had girls in Scouts for years now. The last two BSA camps I went to with the scouts there was Girls on camp staff.

[accadacca]

They have had girls in Scouts for years now. The last two BSA camps I went to with the scouts there was Girls on camp staff.

Can they earn an eagle?

[whansen]

Can they earn an eagle?
Not that i know of. But that didn't matter they were there. And having the Girls up there change the feel of summer for my boys. The camp directors where probably pulling their hair out all summer long trying to keep the staff separate.
I see what your saying and that could be one more straw but they have Girls on summer camp staff and that didn't break the camels back.

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[accadacca]

Yeah our troop went to the Bear Lake camp recently. All the boys could talk about is a girl staff member that was there.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Girls are currently allowed to join Venturing programs outside of the LDS Church. Salem community used to sponsor a Venturing group which consisted of a few young women.

Shocked a few of our Varsity and Venture's a few years ago when "girls" showed up to the Turkey Shoot and won a few of the events. They weren't too happy about it either.

I personally don't like the idea.

[oldno7]

...

[accadacca]

Never gets old... [emoji12]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170516/460baf6c4d22561944371b6986adf7a3.png

[uintafly]

They have had girls in Scouts for years now. The last two BSA camps I went to with the scouts there was Girls on camp staff.

This isn't new. There were girls on staff when I was going to scout camp almost 20 years ago now. The interesting things was how much cuter they seemed to get as the week went on.

[Scott P]

Not that i know of. But that didn't matter they were there. And having the Girls up there change the feel of summer for my boys.

Really? Did they catch cooties or something?


The camp directors where probably pulling their hair out all summer long trying to keep the staff separate.

Probably not.


I see what your saying and that could be one more straw but they have Girls on summer camp staff and that didn't break the camels back.

I worked at Camp Evergreen (East Fork Bear River) in 1990 and 1991. There were female staff there. My cousin (female) worked at Camp Frontier.

This is nothing new. Females have been working at scout camps for many decades. If the scouts can't handle this, then they either shouldn't be in scouting or have poor leadership.

[whansen]

Really? Did they catch cooties or something?



Probably not.


I worked at Camp Evergreen (East Fork Bear River) in 1990 and 1991. There were female staff there. My cousin (female) worked at Camp Frontier.



This is nothing new. Females have been working at scout camps for many decades. If the scouts can't handle this, then they either shouldn't be in scouting or have poor leadership.

No luckily they didn’t get cooties. But they acted different with the girls there. There is times when boys just need to be around boys and girls just be around girls and it’s good for them to have that experience.

Actual we talked to the camp program director about it and if he had any problems with the coed staff and he said from what I remember. He sent one or two staff member’s home that year already for that reason.

Ya I also worked at East Fork of the Bear at camp Tomahawk and Silver Moccasin from 1990 to1993. The only girls I saw was the wife’s of the few adult camp staff members. These older women worked at the trading post and the commissary. It was nice to be able to focus on what we were there for. And not who thought who was cute and who liked who. And what they were doing by the lake last night.

Boys will be Boys and Boys are Scouts. They all handle interaction with girls differently no matter who is leading them. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with keeping the genders separated at camp one week a year.

[Scott P]

Ya I also worked at East Fork of the Bear at camp Tomahawk and Silver Moccasin from 1990 to1993. The only girls I saw was the wife’s of the few adult camp staff members. These older women worked at the trading post and the commissary.

Camp Evergreen was better. We had six female staff. Married staff members were the wife of the camp director, the wife of the assistant camp director; and the kitchen was run by a husband and wife team. The other three female staff members were single. Janell and Jennifer, ages 15 and 17 ran the Trading Post and April, age 24, was the nurse and taught First Aid.

As far as the change in behavior when the women were there, yes there might be some of that, but it is usually having the scouts being better behaved when the girls were around. They may have thought one of the staff were cute, but when the girls were around there were fewer discussions about farts, crap, belches, and the other things that scouts talk about. Overall, having the girls around was a positive and not a negative.

[accadacca]

Posted by a Facebook friend...

What the BSA will be losing without the varsity scouting:

The Church represents 85% of all funding for BSA, so the numbers below are heartbreaking to the BSA
Boy Scout Math

14-18: Lost revenue for registration of 350k @ $24 ea = $8,400,000
14-18: Lost revenue for FOS of 350k @ $225 ea = $78,750,000

[devo_stevo]

Posted by a Facebook friend...

What the BSA will be losing without the varsity scouting:

The Church represents 85% of all funding for BSA, so the numbers below are heartbreaking to the BSA
Boy Scout Math

14-18: Lost revenue for registration of 350k @ $24 ea = $8,400,000
14-18: Lost revenue for FOS of 350k @ $225 ea = $78,750,000I suspect that the high adventure camps are going to start being sold off or closed pretty soon with this change. At least in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Arizona LDS troops make up a large majority of scouts. There's no way they can keep all of the camps open without that support. They will keep some of them open, but there's no way to keep them all open with a loss of revenue like that.

The BSA is putting on a brave face right now, but you know they have to be worried about what this means for them.

[Sombeech]

I worked at Camp Evergreen (East Fork Bear River) in 1990 and 1991.

Hey I might have been there at that time! Troop 21, a bunch of hell raising fire cracker throwing boys from West Weber.

[Scott P]

Hey I might have been there at that time! Troop 21, a bunch of hell raising fire cracker throwing boys from West Weber.

I was the hiking and backpacking guide, so if anyone took hiking and backpacking, they were in my class. I also helped out with Wilderness Survival. My brother taught orienteering and environmental science.

[whansen]

So it was your group that burned down Evergreen! Jk

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[Scott P]

So it was your group that burned down Evergreen! Jk

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In all seriousness, that was Troop 149 out of Peoa.

[whansen]

In all seriousness, that was Troop 149 out of Peoa.
Very sad, with the scar that fire left on the whole valley.

[Scott P]

Very sad, with the scar that fire left on the whole valley.

Yes, sad. Also two bears were shot in camp a few years ago because scouts left a bunch of food on the table. :facepalm1:

[whansen]

Yes, sad. Also two bears were shot in camp a few years ago because scouts left a bunch of food on the table. :facepalm1:
Yah i was there with my son in 2013 when they shot an killed a bear for the same thing. It blew my mind there was even bears around. Because the years i was up there all summer and never saw an sign of bears.

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[Sombeech]

I was the hiking and backpacking guide, so if anyone took hiking and backpacking, they were in my class. I also helped out with Wilderness Survival. My brother taught orienteering and environmental science.

Cool, one year we did a survival night up the trail towards Allsop lake. We stopped at some of the old cabins there and made some shelters for a night.

[Scott P]

Cool, one year we did a survival night up the trail towards Allsop lake. We stopped at some of the old cabins there and made some shelters for a night.

I led that hike then. The first few times, those that took Wilderness Survival combined with the Hiking and Backpacking group and hiked to those cabins. After that, the groups were separate because some of the other staff in charge of wilderness survival didn't want to hike in.