Trump to order review of national monument designations

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/08fde6d5e392784cd4f6962ee195f4dc.jpeg

President Trump this week is expected to take the first step toward potentially undoing national monuments created by his predecessors, and may set off an unprecedented legal battle in the process.

Mr. Trump’s looming executive order, first reported by The Salt Lake Tribune on Monday, will direct the Interior Department to review all monument designations for the past two decades, dating back to President Bill Clinton’s creation of the massive Grand Staircase-Escalante Monument in Utah in 1996.

The Interior Department is also expected to zero in on the 1.3 million-acre Bears Ears National Monument, also in Utah and established by former President Barack Obama in the final weeks of his term.

Mr. Obama set a record for the most land and sea set aside as national monuments, taking presidential authority under the century-old Antiquities Act to new levels. And by cordoning off those huge swaths, he shut them down to energy development and other activities.

Bears Ears was especially controversial. Not only did it come during the last month of Mr. Obama’s tenure, but the designation was made over the objections of many Utah lawmakers.

Other designations, including a massive marine monument off the coast of New England, an 87,000-acre tract of Maine wilderness and a host of others also generated controversy.

Critics of Mr. Obama’s use of the Antiquities Act welcomed news that the Trump administration plans to revisit the issue.

“We’re happy to see an administration finally taking action to resolve the many abuses of the Antiquities Act,” said Molly Block, spokeswoman for the House Natural Resources Committee, which has jurisdiction over national monuments.

Other Republicans who have been critical of the Bears Ears designation said it’s past time to rein in a president’s authority in naming monuments.

“For years, I have fought every step of the way to ensure that our lands are managed by the Utahans [who] know them best and cherish them deeply,” Sen. Orrin G. Hatch, Utah Republican, told The Salt Lake Tribune. “That’s why I’m committed to rolling back the egregious abuse of the Antiquities Act to serve far-left special interests. As part of this commitment, I have leveraged all of my influence — from private meetings in the Oval Office in the president’s first week in office to my latest trip to Bears Ears this week — to ensure that this issue is a priority on the president’s agenda.”But should Mr. Trump seek to formally roll back Bears Ears or any other monument, he’ll be entering a legal gray area, and his actions surely will be challenged in court by environmentalists.

What’s unclear, however, is whether a president has the power to revoke a monument. Past presidents have decreased the size of monuments, but no president has tried to outright eliminate one.

“This is a frightening step toward dismantling the protection of some of America’s most important and iconic places: our national parks and monuments,” said Kieran Suckling, executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity. “Trump’s tapping into the right-wing, anti-public lands zealotry will take us down a very dangerous path — a place where Americans no longer have control over public lands and corporations are left to mine, frack, clear-cut and bulldoze them into oblivion. It starts with Bears Ears and Grand Staircase and only gets worse from there.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/24/donald-trump-order-review-national-monument-design/

[Sandstone Addiction]

...

[kiwi_outdoors]

Might be a fair idea - I could never understand how one man could shut down vast swaths of land without the approval of their elected representatives (emphasis on the plural)

[accadacca]

National Monument executive order expected

“For years I’ve fought to check the abuse of power under the Antiquities Act. That’s why I’ve been working closely with the Trump administration from day one to right the wrongs of previous administrations,” said Senator Orrin Hatch.

The people of Utah appear to be split. A UtahPolicy.com poll released on Tuesday shows 52% of the people think Bear Ear’s should either ‘definitely’ or ‘probably’ be rescinded or shrunk, 41% believe it should ‘definitely not’ or ‘probably not’ be changed, 8% were undecided.

http://fox13now.com/2017/04/25/national-monument-executive-order-expected/

[Sandstone Addiction]

"It's time to end this abusive practice"

Spoken by President Trump in the press conference today at the DOI referring to the Antiquities Act.

More win! :2thumbs:

[tallsteve]

I'm finding it quite ironic that folks I know who backed Obama's decision to executive order Bears Ear, instead of having it go through Congress, are now whining and demanding that it go through Congress for review before it can be rescinded.

[DiscGo]

I actually feel like this is kind of a perfect example of what an Executive Order should be. He isn't bypassing Congress or legislating as if he were a Monarch. President Trump is ordering the Department of Interior to review the monuments. With the review, they can put the time into determining which of these monuments should be expanded (if any), and which should be reduced in size or abolished altogether.

Whether you love these monuments and or hate them, I feel like we as Americans should be grateful that our President is trying to bring about change through the proper channels instead of over-extending the Executive Branch's power.

"A real patriot is the fellow who gets a parking ticket and rejoices that the system works." - Bill Vaughan

[Scott P]

President Trump is ordering the Department of Interior to review the monuments. With the review, they can put the time into determining which of these monuments should be expanded (if any), and which should be reduced in size or abolished altogether.

Whether you love these monuments and or hate them, I feel like we as Americans should be grateful that our President is trying to bring about change through the proper channels instead of over-extending the Executive Branch's power.

Obviously others disagree, but Trump appointed an oil lobbyist and stockholder of oil companies to the Secretary of the Interior. That's a serious conflict of interest in my opinion; so it doesn't seem the "proper channels" to me when it comes to the National Parks and National Monuments.

As far as the monument goes, with the 12% cut in the Interior budget, I seriously doubt that the monument would be funded anyway. An unfunded monument won't do much good, protection wise. Personally I don't think that the new monument is a good idea for this reason.

[middlefork]

This article more or less refutes the allegation of "abusive action"

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/5222339-155/op-ed-hatch-doesnt-tell-the-truth#undefined.uxfs

[Iceaxe]

This article more or less refutes the allegation of "abusive action"

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/5222339-155/op-ed-hatch-doesnt-tell-the-truth#undefined.uxfs

You do realize the "news article" you linked is an opinion piece and is not an actual news article. An opinion piece may or may not be linked to facts or it could be pure male bovine excrement. Either way, using an opinion piece to support an argument is extremely poor practice as it's just that, one person's opinion.


But just to get to the meat of the subject, no one I know disputes there was open debate or public hearings. The problem many have is Bears Ears was done with no open debate, no public hearing and no vote in Congress with regards to the use of the Antiquities Act, it was basically done by one man with a signature, that is why many have their panties in a bunch. All the concerns expressed (from both sides) in the open debates and public hearings were simply washed aside.

[middlefork]

So until congress takes away the the Antiquities Act, he was acting with the authority granted him. Bummer.
I kind of like the early proposal but I don't see a lake in it.
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/1936-proposed-enm-map.pdf

[Iceaxe]

So until congress takes away the the Antiquities Act, he was acting with the authority granted him.

Exactly.... but that was not your original argument or the argument presented in the link you posted.

What Obama did was legal, however what he did was not done with public consensus or majority approval.

This is one of those things that is awesome if you're on the winning side and sucks if you're on the losing side.

[Brian in SLC]

Whether you love these monuments and or hate them, I feel like we as Americans should be grateful that our President is trying to bring about change through the proper channels instead of over-extending the Executive Branch's power.

30 executive orders in 100 days...

What was your point again?

[Brian in SLC]

This is one of those things that is awesome if you're on the winning side and sucks if you're on the losing side.

Have you seen your buddy Dan's map on the monument and surrounding area? Interesting, as it highlights the number and locations of current oil and gas leases and mining claims inside and outside the monument boundaries. Also highlights uranium and coal reserves and their locations.

In addition (and benefiting the state of Utah):

To further the protective purposes of the monument, the Secretary of theInterior shall explore entering into a memorandum of understanding withthe State that would set forth terms, pursuant to applicable laws and regulations,for an exchange of land currently owned by the State of Utah andadministered by the Utah School and Institutional Trust Lands Administrationwithin the boundary of the monument for land of approximately equalvalue managed by the BLM outside the boundary of the monument. TheSecretary of the Interior shall report to the President by January 19, 2017,regarding the potential for such an exchange.

So,here's opportunity to the state that wasn't available before. That's a win for the state and the local economy.

[rockgremlin]

Have you seen your buddy Dan's map on the monument and surrounding area? Interesting, as it highlights the number and locations of current oil and gas leases and mining claims inside and outside the monument boundaries. Also highlights uranium and coal reserves and their locations.


I'd really like to see that map.

In the last week I've been doing some intensive sleuthing in regards to the supposed vast "resources" that are located in the Bear's Ears. I personally am pretty familiar with all of the mineral resources within the state of Utah, so it came as a surprise to me when folks kept talking about all of the rich coal and oil reserves in the Bear's Ears. I had never heard of that...and apparently neither had any major mining company or else they'd already be mining there.


So, I started asking around. In the last week I've asked the following regulatory agencies about the mineral resources in Bear's Ears:

The USGS (United States Geological Survey)
The USFS (United States Forest Service)
DOGM (Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining)

The verdict? Nothing. There are no resources there --- outside of some historical uranium and vanadium mines that are old and mostly mined out.

I was also told that most of what you hear in the media regarding the Bears Ears is grandstanding, and hardly has basis in fact.

So.....there ya go. You can rest easy knowing nobody is gonna go raping and ravaging the Bears Ears for coal or gold or oil or whatever. :fitz:

[Iceaxe]

Have you seen your buddy Dan's map on the monument and surrounding area?

Since I have no clue who Dan is or what map you are referring to we'll have to assume he is not my buddy.

[Iceaxe]

I'm not against Bears Ears as a general concept, but I'm against it for what it will be in reality.

Obama created Bears Ears National Monument on December 28th as he is heading out the door.

Republicans hate these types of designations and will not approve funding, Obama and the Democrats knew this in advance.

Despite a complete lack of funding to protect the resources the tourism and recreation industry will still mass market the new monument, because that’s what the Industrial Strength Recreation Industry does.

Proponents of the monument will not object to the mass marketing because they cling to the idea that tourism is clean and the future of the area's economy.

Herds of people will flock to Bears Ears to visit the new monument that is being mass marketed in spectacular ‘action ads’ on TV and your favorite social media network. This is already happening (see video clip below).

Impact from the increased visitation will skyrocket.

Monument supporters will eventually say the new monument needs more protection and more funding and more staff and more law enforcement and more paved roads and designated campgrounds and restricted access to backcountry areas seldom visited in the past.

And people like me who have enjoyed and visited this relatively obscure area for over 50 years will just cry and remember when it was a seldom visited and secluded place before the "National Monument" tag put a bullseye on Bears Ears.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCP0LJNPXwY

:cry1:

[Brian in SLC]

Since I have no clue who Dan is or what map you are referring to we'll have to assume he is not my buddy.

Where's that photo I have of you two lovin' on each other...

http://www.danransom.com/2017/01/bears-ears-is-too-big/

[rockgremlin]

Where's that photo I have of you two lovin' on each other...

http://www.danransom.com/2017/01/bears-ears-is-too-big/


So....where's the map of all those fabulously rich coal and oil deposits in the Bears Ears?


One thing Mr. Ransom said that I wholeheartedly agree with:

"This is about theatrics. This is about politics."

Concur.

[Brian in SLC]

So....where's the map of all those fabulously rich coal and oil deposits in the Bears Ears?


One thing Mr. Ransom said that I wholeheartedly agree with:

"This is about theatrics. This is about politics."

Concur.

Wish I could figure out a way to link it. He posted it on FB. Not sure how much effort he put into it, but, its pretty damn amazing.

I sent Dan's good buddy a copy on FB so maybe he can figure out how to link it.

In the debate for or against the Bear's Ears, what's kinda missing is what is actually, with regard to resources, extraction, etc, at stake. What is being locked up? That map helps define it.

With oil/gas down (see Vernal's economy), one wonders how viable that industry would be to the Blanding area. I get that service industry jobs in tourism don't have those high salaries that extraction jobs provide. But...if the industry was healthy, and, it had been a few years back, how many folks in Blanding benefited from it?

Just like the timber industry in Maine and Montana, the copper industry in Butte Montana...the market can tap those out and when it dies...those jobs die too. My dad worked in a mill....and...one day, it closed and the company filed bankruptcy. Lost his job and 20 years plus pension (Missoula Montana). So, I have empathy for these communities whose employment is tied to extraction, especially when the market for those products change or the resource is tapped out. Boom and bust.

Rural Utah is tough sleddin' for employment. I'd think having an option like tourism would be a good thing. At least its an option.

Grazing cattle? In Southern Utah? And having them compete with feedlot or areas which grow a gob of grass? Not much there (although the Redds have hung in there with Dugout Ranch).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV6en7ajcg8

I think Dugout is in the Bear's Ears. With regard to grazing:

Laws, regulations, and policies followed by USFS or BLM in issuing and administering grazing permits or leases on lands under their jurisdiction shall continue to apply with regard to the lands in the monument to ensure the ongoing consistency with the care and management of the objects identified above.

Anyhow...current grazing not much effected.

[Iceaxe]

30 executive orders in 100 days...

Didn't we already cover this?!?

Executive orders are completely legal and are completely within the Executive Branch of power. The only time someone considers it overreach is when they come out on the losing side. So nothing to see here, please move along.....

I believe the real issue is with the Antiquities Act, which many believe is not being used as originally intended, in addition to granting one person far to much power with no oversight.

I've believed for years (since Escalante was designated a NM) that the Antiquities Act should be reigned in to require some type of oversight and approval.

Give a guy a big ass hammer and he'll find some big ass nails to pound with it.

:stud:

[rockgremlin]

Again, I'm going to insist upon some actual concrete proof of viable, exploitable resource in the ground in Bears Ears. Because according to every regulatory agency in Utah there's really nothing there.

Anybody who claims otherwise is grandstanding and making up facts to support an agenda.

[stefan]

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/interior-department-releases-list-monuments-under-review-announces-first-ever-formal

[Brian in SLC]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/keep-public-lands-in-public-hands#page-7

Interesting article I hadn't seen before...

I've always thought when it comes to public land and access, tree huggers, greenies, environmentalists, left wing eco wacko's...all have more in common with hunters, fishermen, ATV'ers, motorcyle riders, mountain bikers, bird watchers...and should be on the same side of these kinds of issues.

We might not agree on appropriate use for certain lands, but, access to public land is a cornerstone for all of us.

[twotimer]

ATV'ers, motorcyle riders, mountain bikers, I think this is where it gets sticky.

[Iceaxe]

I've played this game for over 50 years.... The off road crowd would be thrilled to share the public land, but the tree huggers have no intentions of including off road in the final mix.

And to take it a step further the MTB crowd has recently been tossed under the bus by the tree huggers and are not happy about it. The tree huggers have been working hard on getting the wording on restrictions changed from "motorized" to "mechanical".

[erial]

http://www.hcn.org/articles/monuments-how-grand-staircase-escalante-was-set-up-to-fail

[jman]

http://www.hcn.org/articles/monuments-how-grand-staircase-escalante-was-set-up-to-fail

Intriguing read.

“But the homesteaders, Shelton told me, have a peculiar view of their relationship with the federal government. “You have to realize that a large part of the federal land management workforce in Utah is anti-federal,” she said. “Probably half of the staff at the Grand Staircase is anti-federal. I think a lot of it does have to do with the Mormon way of thinking.”

This is doesn’t sit me me very well however. Being a full time BLM firefighter many years ago we were not “anti-federal”. And it certainly did not have to do with the “Mormon way of thinking”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rockgremlin]

Intriguing read.

“But the homesteaders, Shelton told me, have a peculiar view of their relationship with the federal government. “You have to realize that a large part of the federal land management workforce in Utah is anti-federal,” she said. “Probably half of the staff at the Grand Staircase is anti-federal. I think a lot of it does have to do with the Mormon way of thinking.”

This is doesn’t sit me me very well however. Being a full time BLM firefighter many years ago we were not “anti-federal”. And it certainly did not have to do with the “Mormon way of thinking”.

Concur. I read the entire article. It's an interesting read, but I'd have to say it's poignancy outweighs its objectivity.

There are some things I agree with -- like I despise how Gov. Herbert is a good ole boy, who very obviously denounces conservation in order to prop up his southern Utah ties. But the bit about antagonism towards the federal government originating with Brigham Young? Methinks that's a stretch.

I always assumed one of the biggest reasons for the designation of the monument was to put the kibosh on a major coal mine that would've gone up in Smoky Hollow. Utah's DOGM had issued Andalex the permit to proceed with mining, and then Clinton swooped in with his executive pen and squashed it. Since Andalex was granted a permit to mine before the monument's designation, they could have proceeded forward to mine, but decided against it in the face of potentially overwhelming backlash.

[Scott P]

“But the homesteaders, Shelton told me, have a peculiar view of their relationship with the federal government. “You have to realize that a large part of the federal land management workforce in Utah is anti-federal,” she said. “Probably half of the staff at the Grand Staircase is anti-federal. I think a lot of it does have to do with the Mormon way of thinking.”
------
But the bit about antagonism towards the federal government originating with Brigham Young? Methinks that's a stretch.

You are right that it doesn't fit the majority of Mormons in Utah, but it does have much truth to it concerning some of the small towns, including that of Escalante itself. I attended church many times in Escalante in the 1990's and 2000's and the bishop (Bishop Wade Barney) there was always mentioning Brigham Young while ragging on the Feds, outsiders, and environmentalist. I was there when he said that the congregation should start running non-Mormons out of town (which sort of shocked me to hear).

Shortly after that his comments to the congregation hit national news when during sacrament he said that the congregation needs to start a holy war against outsiders and environmentalists. Some residents (almost surely of the congregation) started vandalizing property of people known to support environmental causes. The bishop said that they got what they deserved. This time though, it didn't set well with the church leaders in SLC and the bishop was released.

I guess the ironic part of all this is that Brigham Young was one of the first environmentalist I know of in the country. His way of thinking concerning the environment was way ahead of its time. If he were alive today, he would be branded and extreme environmentalist and radical by Utah lawmakers and much of the rural community. Brigham Young was very pro-public lands (way ahead of his time) and for protection of nature preserves. He was actually more environmentalist than almost all of today's environmentalists because he advocated only taking what you need to live on and preserving the rest of the land in a natural state.

Here are official statements by the LDS Church itself from the Newsroom on LDS.org:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/environment-statements

It's very ironic that many Utah Mormons aren't aware or don't care about what has been said in the above.


I always assumed one of the biggest reasons for the designation of the monument was to put the kibosh on a major coal mine that would've gone up in Smoky Hollow.

This is true. Some still want the coal mine, but even if the monument and all environmental restrictions are scrapped, the coal industry is in decline. The coal at Smokey Hollow isn't of the best quality and it is unlikely that even if the mine were opened in the 1990's that it would have survived until today. Meanwhile the industries related to the National Parks and Monuments are booming.

[rockgremlin]

This is true. Some still want the coal mine, but even if the monument and all environmental restrictions are scrapped, the coal industry is in decline. The coal at Smokey Hollow isn't of the best quality and it is unlikely that even if the mine were opened in the 1990's that it would have survived until today. Meanwhile the industries related to the National Parks and Monuments are booming.

In addition to coal being on the decline, one of the biggest hurdles for coal coming out of Smoky Hollow would've been where to ship it. The power plant in Delta is converting to natural gas in 2025, so they really could only ship coal there for another 8 years. Outside of the Delta plant they'd have to contract with the Navajo power plant in Arizona, but that plant already has a steady supply of coal from the enormous Kayenta mine just east of the plant. The closest third option is the Hunter power plant in central Utah, but that's a long haul through a lot of communities that oppose large coal trucks rolling through their town. Beyond that, overseas markets for coal aren't very strong these days -- and that's assuming you could find a port in California who will agree to take coal -- which is next to impossible.

What we're witnessing here is the slow demise of a once mighty industry. Tough to be a coal miner these days. Personally, I'd be shocked if in 20 years we're still mining coal for power generation.

[Sombeech]

It's not so much the "Mormon way of thinking", it's that the non Mormons assume the Mormons are all in league together and are discussing these things every Sunday together, getting the political talking points straight.

When it comes to things like this, the National Monuments, there is NO Mormon way of thinking. These things are not brought up on Sunday, at least from the multiple locations, people, and demographics I've attended church with. These things just aren't talked about.

Now if somebody's got a story where they remember somebody sharing their political opinions during the sermon at church, I'm going to ask you why you didn't politely raise your hand and ask to keep politics out of the sermon, speech, or lesson.

So many people assume that the Mormons are banding together on certain subjects, and it's just not happening. Certain people with similar political views certainly get together and talk, and discuss ideas, but religion has ZERO to do with it, at least in the Mormon church.

It's odd how some can be so certain of what Mormons do in church, when there has never been any interest in attending for themselves to see just what goes on.

I'm told all of the time, about what we do and what we discuss in church, by non Mormons who have no interest in attending. I'm not sure where their spy cameras are set up but I think they need some better angles.

The only thing political that has been on the Mormon church agenda, talked about in Sunday School, is to NOT discuss politics.

If somebody wants to pay me, I'll be a legitimate outlet for anybody that wants to know what we talked about in church. I'll tell you all. Or you could save money and just show up to spy on the secret agenda, but I'll gladly take your money.

[rockgremlin]

^^^Well, that may be the case in urban Wasatch Front Mormon gatherings, but everything is different in small town Utah. Believe me. I've lived in three small Utah towns, and the attitudes are very different in the smaller communities where the Bishopric, Stake Presidency and High Council all hold prominent city and county leadership positions. Especially where the federal government threatens local livelihoods that have been established in the community for decades.

[Iceaxe]

Meanwhile the industries related to the National Parks and Monuments are booming.

The big problem with that is most the industry and jobs related to the National Parks and Monuments are all low paying bottomfeeder jobs.

Energy and mining provide much higher paying jobs in comparison.

[Scott P]

The big problem with that is most the industry and jobs related to the National Parks and Monuments are all low paying bottomfeeder jobs.

Energy and mining provide much higher paying jobs in comparison.

I mostly agree, but in that region the lower paying jobs are also more steady. Energy and mining is usually boom and bust. I said earlier that if a coal mine was opened up in the Grand Staircase, it likely would have been shut down by now for the reasons Rock pointed out. The tourism jobs are still there.

The thing about rural areas is that they are rural for a reason. If there were a lot of high paying jobs there, more people would move in to the point that they wouldn't be rural anymore.

I live in a rural area by choice, but I also know that I will make less money here. I could make a lot more money if I moved to Denver, but it's not worth it to me. Obviously for millions of other people, it is.

I do have an education and lots of experience though. I don't know why many people in rural areas just expect that it will be easy to find an unlimited number of high paying jobs for people with no education. It is true that things like coal mining do pay high wages to people who are completely uneducated (when I worked at the coal mine a lot of those guys couldn't even read or write and didn't both graduating high school).

If money is your primary purpose in life, then get an education (if you are able), work hard, get some experience, and move to the big city. Don't expect that high paying jobs in rural areas will be available to high school dropouts on a permanent basis.

[Iceaxe]

I disagree, the majority of the jobs that come with the NPS are typically seasonal.

Most industies experience peaks and valleys, that's just the nature of the beast. Mining and energy are no different.

I've been in mining and energy most my adult life and for the most part there is a lot of money and a good solid living to be made. Only downside I really know of is you must be willing to relocate to where the work is as the landscape changes.

There is little money to be made by the majority working the tourist industry that comes with the NPS.

[rockgremlin]

^^^Being on both sides of the coin I can argue for both sides. Ice is right that there's much more $$$ to be made in the extractive minerals industry, although it's true you've gotta go where the mines are. And the majority of the mines are NOT in popular, attractive locations. Kennecott is a rare exception. On my side, due to market conditions (ie copper prices) I've felt the sting of layoffs and relocation. It ain't fun, but it's a risk you choose to accept when you work in this industry.

Employment stability and mining are strange bedfellows.

[Scott P]

I've been in mining and energy most my adult life and for the most part there is a lot of money and a good solid living to be made.

I agree, but in rural areas the energy and mining industry is usually boom and bust. I live in a mining town and have lived in another fossil fuel town. This has been for almost half of my life and it has always been like that. It was like that long before I moved here as well.

In cities with mining and energy jobs such as Salt Lake or Houston, it is more stable, but in most mining and energy rural areas, it's a boom and bust economy.

[Iceaxe]

So bottomline you can have a shitty job with low wages, seasonal employment, and little chance of improvement.... or.... you can gamble with the boom and bust that comes with high paying energy and mining jobs where fortunes can be made.... hmmm.... What to do, what to do....

[twotimer]

There's nothing wrong with the boom and bust. Make the bank while you can.