Confederate Statues removed in New Orleans

[savanna3313]

I'm curious as to what people think about this who are not associated with the area. Most people think, right or wrong, it's history and heritage. Thoughts? :popcorn:




http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/controversial-removal-of-confederate-monument-starts-in-new-orleans/ar-BBAefFl


My 2 cents:

With the crime rate and city deterioration escalating daily, this is what the mayor focuses on. Guess it takes the heat off of him (temporarily) for the sky high murder rate and crime rate. New Orleans (very sadly) is not the city where I was raised any longer. The whole city is history - right or wrong - and what will come next? The French Quarter buildings? D.C. monuments? Where does it stop?

[Iceaxe]

I think it's all a bunch of bullshit.

But then again I'm a redneck so WTF do I know.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsNwDjUjbfs

[hank moon]

A brief history of one of the monuments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place


Note that the monuments are not being destroyed, but removed from public display for the moment. Probably they will end up in a museum (or perhaps a National Park), which seems appropriate.

[savanna3313]

Time will tell. I've read and heard several things about where the monuments will end up, one being an area in City Park where they will be set up with history plaques etc. A sort of Civil War garden I suppose. The next monuments to be removed (according to the "list") will be PGT Beauregard, Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis. Like it or not, they are part of history. Half of the officers in the Union and the South attended military schools together. A sad time in our history most certain, but it does concern me as to where all of this will end. Washington and Jefferson were both slave owners, so will their monuments in D.C.be the next target? Btw - I heard that Andrew Jackson (Jackson Square) is on the "list" as well. Last time I checked, there were American and British flags only at the Battle of New Orleans.

I guess my point is that with SOOO much that is wrong in the city, THIS is where the mayor chooses to focus his efforts. A huge majority of the city streets are not back to pre-Katrina condition and they weren't that great then. The city has so much to offer.......a little piece of Europe in America with so much diverse culture, music, food and people. 1/3 of the people that left because of Katrina have not returned. Sad.........

[savanna3313]

I think it's all a bunch of bullshit.

But then again I'm a redneck so WTF do I know.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsNwDjUjbfs

A gangsta redneck?! :facepalm1:

[devo_stevo]

I think it's all a bunch of bullshit.

But then again I'm a redneck so WTF do I know.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsNwDjUjbfsI'll be honest here. That was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I'd rather watch some kid crash on a skateboard 100 times that see anything like that again.

I'm with Savannah. :facepalm1:

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170429/922e0043c3d5f49ffac8e71d3ca954e9.jpg

[Rob L]

Isn't it a bit like the Germans (after the war and for several decades subsequent) denying that the holocaust ever took place? History, sometimes unpleasant, can never be obliterated, so why try to do so?

[Iceaxe]

Nope, nothing like the Germans and WWII... you missed understanding entirely.

[Rob L]

Nope, nothing like the Germans and WWII... you missed understanding entirely.

OK, so what is the reasoning behind the "removal" of Confederate icons?

[hank moon]

Isn't it a bit like the Germans (after the war and for several decades subsequent) denying that the holocaust ever took place? History, sometimes unpleasant, can never be obliterated, so why try to do so?

AFAIK Holocaust denial as we have it today (claiming that it never happened) originated in the USA. Of course before the end of the war, the Nazis used evidence destruction, propaganda, etc. in an effort to hide the mass murder program. Post war, however, I have not heard of such activity. Have you?

[Rob L]

AFAIK Holocaust denial as we have it today (claiming that it never happened) originated in the USA. Of course before the end of the war, the Nazis used evidence destruction, propaganda, etc. in an effort to hide the mass murder program. Post war, however, I have not heard of such activity. Have you?

The Germans refused to include reference to it in school history until relatively recently. As you say, there was a lot of destruction carried out; Auschwitz-Birkenau ended up in Poland after the revision of borders, otherwise they would have been obliterated too.

[twotimer]

Yeah,..well, Gone With The Wind is the greatest movie ever, in my opinion. They'll have to pry my BluRay copy from my cold, dead hands.

[hank moon]

The Germans refused to include reference to it in school history until relatively recently. As you say, there was a lot of destruction carried out; Auschwitz-Birkenau ended up in Poland after the revision of borders, otherwise they would have been obliterated too.

Sounds familiar. Slavery in the U.S. is of course mentioned in school history books, yet not given attention proportional to its ongoing influence on our economy and culture.

[savanna3313]

Sounds familiar. Slavery in the U.S. is of course mentioned in school history books, yet not given attention proportional to its ongoing influence on our economy and culture.

I have my opinion about the men who are represented in the statues and that is not going to change. And contrary to belief, not all were slave owners. When Robert E Lee's father died, he freed all of the slaves on his land. This discussion could go on and on, but I can respectfully agree to disagree. No need in firing a Fort Sumter volley again. :2thumbs:

There is nothing that will ever justify slavery - ever. Sadly, there is a different type of slavery now (for all races) and that is the welfare system. Unless you grew up in areas where the welfare system is a lifestyle, you cannot relate. It was meant to be a hand up and not a hand out. It's a heartbreaking situation. In the course of history, there were more people who were treated worse than the slaves. Irish immigrants used to build canals and waterways in Louisiana for pennies a day and were used instead of slaves because to replace them was cheaper. They died by the thousands. Same thing with the Chinese immigrants and the building of the railroads. They were used to set the explosives because the were easily and cheaply replaced. Most of the US was acquired by force, but right or wrong, it's history. Hopefully lessons are learned and the past is not repeated.

[Brian in SLC]

The Germans refused to include reference to it in school history until relatively recently. As you say, there was a lot of destruction carried out; Auschwitz-Birkenau ended up in Poland after the revision of borders, otherwise they would have been obliterated too.

I toured Dachau in 1990 at the same time as a class of nearby German students probably around 10 years old or so. Some were with their parents. I spoke a bit of German at the time so could understand some of the kids comments. We were in the reconstructed barracks were there were old logbooks and photographs especially of some of the "patients" that had been experimented on. Sobering place to say the least. I remember with some clarity a young German schoolgirl tugging on her mom's shirt and asking quietly..."did we do this?"

Interesting that aerial photographs prior to the liberation on 29 April 1945 and current show the layout of facility hasn't changed much, if at all.

http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/local/2015/01/13/dixie-states-rebel-statue-returns-sender/21722605/

[Brian in SLC]

[QUOTE=savanna3313;585976When Robert E Lee's father died, he freed all of the slaves on his land. [/QUOTE]

Harry Lee died only 3 years after being released from debtors prison when Robert E. Lee was 11 years old.

You're probably referring to his father-in-law.

Crazy history.

[savanna3313]

Harry Lee died only 3 years after being released from debtors prison when Robert E. Lee was 11 years old.

You're probably referring to his father-in-law.

Crazy history.

I stand corrected. :nod: I have found (on the internet no less!) varying information.

[uintafly]

I don't really understand the love affair the south has with the confederacy as a whole and the flag in particular. I go to KY every year and the hillbillies pretty much treat it as a sacred symbol. At the end of the day they were traitors, and after years of death and destruction they finally got their asses handed to them. Why you would worship that time in history is beyond me.

[Brian in SLC]

Why you would worship that time in history is beyond me.

I have a theory...based on my relations on my dad's side, who were all from North Carolina.

Back in the day, even if you were poor, a sharecropper, there was still a class of people you were better than.

Post civil war, that wasn't true anymore. Then Jim Crow came along.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Monument_(New_Orleans)

Does anyone really think the Liberty Monument should NOT have been taken down? And, if so, why?

[uintafly]

I have a theory...based on my relations on my dad's side, who were all from North Carolina.

Back in the day, even if you were poor, a sharecropper, there was still a class of people you were better than.

Post civil war, that wasn't true anymore. Then Jim Crow came along.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Monument_(New_Orleans)

Does anyone really think the Liberty Monument should NOT have been taken down? And, if so, why?

If you have ever spent much time in Appalachia, this would be hard to argue with.

[Iceaxe]

I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention, what were you saying?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/3d4f3adfe2b517e9b9c4bd8e975b7802.jpg

[accadacca]

87126

https://www.facebook.com/ksltv/videos/10155671930148676/

[Iceaxe]

They tore down a Robert E Lee statue in New Orleans last night. I'm sorry, this is asinine. General Lee was opposed to slavery. He called it a "moral evil." He never purchased a single slave and the slaves he inherited from his father-in-law, he freed. Which is more than can be said for the numerous Union generals who owned slaves. General Lee was also opposed to secession. He was offered the job commanding the Northern Army, but he declined because, as a Virginian, he could not bring himself to march an army against his home and his sons. Tell me: would you do differently? Would you take up arms against your family? Is that such a simple choice? Can you really not appreciate the complexity of the situation that General Lee faced?

General Lee was widely respected on both sides. Read the accounts of his surrender at Appomattox to understand just how highly regarded he was by the men who actually did the fighting. He was one of the greatest Generals this country ever produced, and he was a man of honor and dignity. General Grant recognized that, his soldiers recognized that, Lincoln recognized it, yet we today, in modern times, cast him aside as a racist and a traitor. Disgraceful.

We can talk about the political causes of the Civil War, but it cannot be disputed that the men who actually fought did so to protect their countries. Southerners considered their states to be their countries first. We may not understand that nowadays, but sometimes a bit of historical perspective is necessary. You know, the same historical perspective we afford to the slave-owning Founders, such as Jefferson. Yet we put these evils aside and build monuments to him. Can we not then put the Civil War in context and allow a great man like Robert E Lee to be remembered and honored, as both his compatriots and his enemies honored him?

It's ironic to hear these same liberals call the president a Nazi, while destroying history, telling everyone what speech is acceptable and what type of people are acceptable. Please let me know when the book burning is to take place.

One last note to those conservatives who celebrate the destruction of Confederate monuments. Mark my words: they will come for the slave-owning Founders next. And what will you say then?

[DiscGo]

I was literally just coming here to post the same Matt Walsh comment that Iceaxe posted.

[hank moon]

They tore down a Robert E Lee statue in New Orleans last night. I'm sorry, this is asinine. ...Mark my words: they will come for the slave-owning Founders next. And what will you say then?

Asinine? Agreed. But then, statues and monuments themselves are asinine, so good riddance. Hopefully they won't waste any tax dollars on a smiley-face replacement or such.

The "mark my words" thing ain't gonna happen, though. No slope slick enough to sled the hallowed daddies.

[Iceaxe]

History is complicated. But it is still history. Tearing down markers of history because you disagree with them is a milestone on the road to ignorance. Statues, like all art, are a form of expression. As Justice Holmes noted so long ago, the remedy for objectionable expression is to counter it with expression of your own, not to silence it.

It would also be great if people understood why the monuments are actually being torn down. This has little to do with slavery and is really about Mayor Mitch Landrieu wanting to make a name for himself in national politics.

I see no difference between this and ISIS destroying Iranian and Syrian art.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/isis-destroys-ancient-art.html

[Brian in SLC]

History is complicated. But it is still history. Tearing down markers of history because you disagree with them is a milestone on the road to ignorance. Statues, like all art, are a form of expression. As Justice Holmes noted so long ago, the remedy for objectionable expression is to counter it with expression of your own, not to silence it.

The history of New Orleans and this monument are worth considering.

Note that New Orleans was the port in the US that supported the slave trade. Prior to the civil war, it was a melting pot. Huge community of immigrants. More "free" black folks that anywhere else in the south (and probably even the north?). That era still gives New Orleans its flavor today with a mix of Spanish and French cultures that make this city unique in the U.S.

What was Lee's connection to New Orleans? Little other than he was a general in the confederacy. So, his statue wasn't about him as a person, but, a symbol of the confederacy (erected and celebrated as such). Davis and Beauregard had much stronger ties but Lee was the person more revered and celebrated.

The Union took New Orleans early in the war.

Look at the change in demographics and politics in New Orleans over the years. First mixed race (black) governor in the US in 1872. Then came the "white league". Largest mass lynching in American history. And, the erecting of these statues.

The ethnicity of the city has changed. 30% black in 1940 to over 60% black now. And, the population of the city has plummeted over the last few decades.

The Robert E. Lee statue was not a statue to the man. He has little to do with New Orleans. He didn't win a battle there and wasn't from anywhere near there. It was a symbol of something else. And, its not destroyed, its being moved, for better or worse.

Anyhow...

[Iceaxe]

And, its not destroyed, its being moved, for better or worse.

If you believe the Lee monument will ever see the light of day under the current city administration you are lying to yourself.

It wasn't long ago that the Taliban was blowing up historical Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian figures because they didn't fit into their way or thinking. The pandering politicians in New Orleans are no different.

FWIW: Lee's opinion of slavery was identical to Lincoln's: both considered it to be evil, but neither thought fighting a war would be the best way to end it.

The monument to Lt. Beauregard was also removed. Beauregard was a New Orleans native, who also never owned slaves and actually fought for "civil rights" after the War of Northern Aggression.

[Brian in SLC]

The pandering politicians in New Orleans are no different.

Yep...pandering to their constituents.


The monument to Lt. Beauregard was also removed. Beauregard was a New Orleans native, who also never owned slaves and actually fought for "civil rights" after the War of Northern Aggression.

Beauregard grew up on a sugar plantation in slave supported aristocracy. He married into plantations that were also supported by slavery. Twice (first wife died in childbirth).

He may have never personally owned slaves, but, both his family and both the families he married into did. He had money and went to private schools and West Point on the backs of slaves.

What's that revisionist history of the South called? The "lost cause"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

Interesting op ed:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/magazine/the-souths-heritage-is-so-much-more-than-a-flag.html?_r=4

One of the fun things to do as a tourist in New Orleans is to visit the old, antebellum plantations. Wild history.

[double moo]

Saw an interview with Condoleezza Rice about this the other day. Said it is sad that they are erasing history instead of using it to promote how far they've come.

[Iceaxe]

Hannibal Barca, Napoleon Bonaparte, Robert E. Lee, Erwin Rommel were all great military stratgists, tactitions and leaders that are heavily studied and admired by anyone who understands military history. All of the above were only on the "wrong" side depending on your perspective. The biggest failure each of the above made was eventually ending up on the losing side.

It would be interesting to see how history regarded Grant, Eisenhower and Patton if they had of ended up on the losing side.

And I'm still waiting for someone (@Brian is SLC maybe?) to explain to me how this is any different from what the Taliban did to the Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian monuments.

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

And I'm still waiting for someone (@Brian is SLC maybe?) to explain to me how this is any different from what the Taliban did to the Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian monuments.

In a word, context:

On the one hand: 3 of the world's great religions, practiced by billions of people over 1000s of years

On the other: a relatively minor and recent regional conflict

[Brian in SLC]

And I'm still waiting for someone (@Brian is SLC maybe?) to explain to me how this is any different from what the Taliban did to the Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian monuments.

I do think they are similar...

The erection of the statues in the first place was similar to the Taliban blowing up monuments. An imposition.

The removal of the statues was a correction of the white leagues' revisionist history.

My hope is the statues in New Orleans end up in a museum. But, they weren't destroyed. The Taliban destroyed the monuments.

And, there wasn't a debate on what the Taliban did versus New Orleans. I think the majority of the world thought what the Taliban did was "bad". If you've travelled to Muslim countries, you'll see that culture has largely preserved previous cultures' history. The only reason we have an inkling of information on the Greeks, for instance. Just look at the touristy stuff in Istanbul. (Interested to hear about a co-workers trip to Eygpt).

People compare the removal of the statures in New Orleans to the toppling of the statue of Saddam in Baghdad. Removing an ode to oppression.

Its interesting to ponder, though. You've been to Mexico and seen some of the ancient ruins there? You could say those were built on the backs of the enslaved by the ruling elite too. Egypt with its pyramids. Rome. Athens. I've been to the Roman coliseums where the Christians were fed to the lions. Wild to see that stuff. And, that history wasn't erased.

Another POV...these statues differ from the monuments destroyed by Isis and the Taliban in that they weren't constructed during a prosperous time in the South's or New Orleans history. They were built following that loss by white supremacists who also passed Jim Crow laws oppressing part of the local population. So, their construction was dubious at best to begin with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thibodaux_massacre

Some of that "statue" history in New Orleans is bad ol' history some of which has been "white washed".

Yeah, the victors write the version of history that become "known". And, having spent a fair amount of time in Louisiana and Arkansas...well...there's plenty of lingering sentiments...

[Iceaxe]

In a word, context:

On the one hand: 3 of the world's great religions, practiced by billions of people over 1000s of years

On the other: a relatively minor and recent regional conflict
So rewriting history is OK but it has to be longer then 150 years ago? Or rewriting history is OK if it involves billions and not just millions? Or do both things have to occur to make rewriting history acceptable? You know what I mean, two wrongs make a right perhaps?

Enquiring minds want to know....

[Iceaxe]

My hope is the statues in New Orleans end up in a museum. But, they weren't destroyed. The Taliban destroyed the monuments.

I believe much of the problem could have been avoided is a proper place for the statues had of been found before the removal, say a historical park or museum. But everyone knows the current mayor has no plan of these statues ever seeing the light of day again.

I don't agree with the reasons the statues were originally erected, but I also don't believe in attempting to erase the history of why they were erected. Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

[Brian in SLC]

So rewriting history is OK but it has to be longer then 150 years ago?

Or, its ok if it supports your POV? When you use the phrase, "the war of Northern aggression" for example? That's code for...something...isn't it?

What's your tie to the south? Are your people from there? What's that history?

I know Hank has some time in the south...(as stated above, my dad's folks were from North Carolina and still bitter about "that war".)


Enquiring minds want to know....

Yeah, what's your stake in this? You spend time in New Orleans? The South?

Do you wrap yourself in the Stars and Bars?

[hank moon]

https://vimeo.com/126720159

[Iceaxe]

Or, its ok if it supports your POV? When you use the phrase, "the war of Northern aggression" for example? That's code for...something...isn't it?


The term "Civil War" is a relatively modern term for what was known at the time as "the war of Northern aggression" or "the war of Southern aggression" or "War of Southern Independence". Those were the terms used at the time of the war. I inserted it to see who really knows their American history.



Do you wrap yourself in the Stars and Bars?

Depends on what you call the Stars and Bars, as most people are clueless.

What many consider the Stars and Bars or Rebel Battle flag is in reality the Confederate Naval Jack and was seldom seen during the "War of Secession".


This is the original Stars and Bars

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg/255px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg.png



What many call the rebel flag was really the Confederate Naval Jack.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Confederate_Navy_Jack_%28light_blue%29.svg/167px-Confederate_Navy_Jack_%28light_blue%29.svg.png



This is the Battle Flag of the army of Northern Virginia (notice its square).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Battle_flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America.s vg/220px-Battle_flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America.s vg.png


What most call the rebel flag or battle flag is actually a modern reproduction

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg/220px-Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg.png

So what does this fun with flags have to do with removing statues, I'm just trying to point out the confusion when folks try to rewrite history. I bet less than 5% of the population even knows what they think is the "Rebel Flag" or "Stars and Bars" is actually just a poor modern reproduction.

As I already stated... "I don't agree with the reasons the statues were originally erected, but I also don't believe in attempting to erase the history of why they were erected. Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it."

[Scott P]

While would tend to agree with Shane on this one about preserving history, I fully admit that if a was the descendant of a slave, I might feel different.

When you read the history of slavery, it was a terrible ordeal for those enslaved. Even if slaves weren't beaten, children of slaves were sold off in auction and they would never see their children again. I wonder how anyone today would react if that happened to us.

I don't think this is strictly a conservative vs. liberal issue. I would be willing to bet that if there was a statue of Governor Boggs in Provo, the same thing might happen.

Everything Shane says about General Robert E Lee is historically true. Unfortunately for Lee however, many will only think of him as the man who fought on the side of slavery.

I still don't know if destroying or hiding the statues or trying to revise history is the right solution. This wouldn't solve anything. If the statues were left in place (too late now), perhaps the best solution might be a new monument in the vicinity that explains the history of the Civil War and that also points out how far we've come would have been the best solution. Since they have been removed, maybe the statues could be moved to a civil war museum.

Still, it's pretty sad that those removing the statues have to wear bullet proof vest.

[Brian in SLC]

The term "Civil War" is a relatively modern term for what was known at the time as "the war of Northern aggression" or "the war of Southern aggression" or "War of Southern Independence". Those were the terms used at the time of the war. I inserted it to see who really knows their American history.

Cite a single pre1950's reference for referring to the war as "the war of Northern Aggression". Especially given the succession from the Union and attack on Ft. Sumter by your guy Beauregard.

The War of Succession. The War of Separation. The War of the Rebellion. Lincoln's War.

[Iceaxe]

In 1862 Union General John McClernand used the term War of Northern Aggression in a speach. It was not a popular phrase during the Civil War, but neither was the term Civil War.

http://www.nytimes.com/1862/09/03/news/war-meeting-at-bolivar-tenn-speech-of-gen-mcclernand.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War?wprov=sfla1

[emoji631]

[Brian in SLC]

As an aside...a possible physical connection...my Colt 1860 .44, martially marked:

87129

Circa 1862 with the cutouts for a stock. I like the balance of this pistol...

[hank moon]

While would tend to agree with Shane on this one about preserving history, I fully admit that if a was the descendant of a slave, I might feel different.

Exactly. These monuments were intended to nurture / support a specific viewpoint. Where are the public historical monuments reminding us of slavery?

Re: the supposed public value of these monuments in promoting an understanding of history. I imagine that such monuments actually have a negative impact on the public understanding of history. The study of history is an undertaking that is far less rigorous than say, climate science, which is highly politicized and distorted by belief and ideology. History is obviously even more so, and with monuments being the 3D equivalent of a sound bite, they mostly serve to magnify the distortion.

[savanna3313]

Exactly. These monuments were intended to nurture / support a specific viewpoint. Where are the public historical monuments reminding us of slavery?

Re: the supposed public value of these monuments in promoting an understanding of history. I imagine that such monuments actually have a negative impact on the public understanding of history. The study of history is an undertaking that is far less rigorous than say, climate science, which is highly politicized and distorted by belief and ideology. History is obviously even more so, and with monuments being the 3D equivalent of a sound bite, they mostly serve to magnify the distortion.

There are many public designations for civil rights, etc. I'm not sure about actual slavery. But those who fought against it, yes. Streets, museums, federal holidays, etc.....etc.

I have been on the road with my move to St. George and haven't been online much. I have enjoyed reading all of the conversation going on regarding this issue. It is interesting to hear the varying views on the subject.

This isn't a pro or anti slave issue. Right or wrong, it was history. New Orleans is also one reason the country grew as it did with the export and import business that brought in billions for the country. I grew up in this city and most of my life was spent there. It has not recovered since Katrina, and now with a mayor who's sights are set on a Presidential run in 2020, he will do all the ass kissing possible to secure his future position. This should have been something voted on by the citizens of the city - period. Why do you think this is all being done by masked workers in the middle of the night? It has gotten so ridiculous as to some saying the Saints football team will have to change their logo of the fleur-de-lis because it represents Creole aristocracy and they were slave owners. Where does it stop? And I wholly agree that the push to eradicate Jefferson Memorial and such will build steam in the future.

On the bright side - it's a beautiful morning in red rock country! Out on the patio drinking my New Orleans French Market coffee and enjoying God's monuments. :2thumbs:

[hank moon]

Right or wrong, it was history.

The history of an event is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by monuments, which generally serve to promote only a single, fixed viewpoint among many.

What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)

[savanna3313]

History is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by a monument, which generally serves to promote a simplistic and distorted view of history.

What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)


Gosh....I will be happy to go into detail when I have more time. My movers are showing up today after the truck broke down outside of Durango CO and the transmission had to be replaced. Moving is so much fun! :crazy: Only a week late.....

[Iceaxe]

:-)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170524/a07fa8c2d11b1b7fb5c3aa8bc08947d3.jpg

[Scott P]

Here's the speech given by Mayor Landrieu if anyone wants to read it:

http://pulsegulfcoast.com/2017/05/transcript-of-new-orleans-mayor-landrieus-address-on-confederate-monuments

[hank moon]

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45631

12 Years a Slave

Great read, and a public domain book, so it's free. If you're interested in history, don't miss it. Differs substantially from the movie (in a good way).

[savanna3313]

The history of an event is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by monuments, which generally serve to promote only a single viewpoint among many.

What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)


The history of an event is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by monuments, which generally serve to promote only a single viewpoint among many.

What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)

I feel that no matter what I reply, it will not be "correct". This thread was started by me because I was truly interested in varying opinions on the subject. Especially from those far-removed from the area. The frustration of the matter - the citizens of the city were not asked, did not have a chance to object, etc. The statues were removed in the dead of night, by masked workers. It should've gone to a vote. In addition, the crime and deterioration of the city surpass understanding. The night the Beauregard statue was removed, 5 people were shot on the street - 2 died. The streets have pot holes bigger than some cars. Many neighborhoods are still in the same condition as the day they were after Katrina even though billions poured in to the state post Katrina. The issues that truly plague New Orleans are NOT caused by Civil War military statues. Drugs, crime, welfare "lifestyle", political and police corruption, the school system, etc...etc....etc. These are the true issues that require focus and attention. What has happened is a smoke screen pure and simple and set up to further one man's (the mayor) political agenda for the future.

Enjoying Southern history and culture does not make me a racist. I was raised to have respect for all people and I grew up in an era where bathrooms and water fountains were colored or white. (yes I am old) As a small child, I remember I always wanted to drink from the "colored" water fountain because I thought it was like Kool-Aid since it was colored. I have black friends, gay friends, even Democratic friends :ne_nau: - we just don't discuss politics or religion for the most part. :nono:

New Orleans is a very eclectic city with people from all over the world that helped to settle and build the area. It's not called a melting pot by accident. From the Irish Channel to the French Quarter, its history will continue to live on regardless of current events. I just pray to God it is not eventually destroyed from within. (Let the good times roll!) :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Word!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/0ae6a35a43ebbd916d68980883e9d230.jpg

[hank moon]

I feel that no matter what I reply, it will not be "correct".

Sorry to hear that, Savanna. There is no such thing as "correct" when it comes to this kind of stuff. I am still curious to hear a non-ideological rationale for not removing the statues. Anyone?

[twotimer]

I am still curious to hear a non-ideological rationale for not removing the statues. Anyone?Yeah...see that flag that Iceaxe posted up there? That's it! Forget the racist connotations, it's about being a Rebel...everyone can relate to that, right?

Some people look at those statues and get themselves all butthurt for no good reason at all. I say phoey on them. My rationale for them is "Get a life".

[hank moon]

Yeah...see that flag that Iceaxe posted up there? That's it! Forget the racist connotations, it's about being a Rebel...everyone can relate to that, right?

Some people look at those statues and get themselves all butthurt for no good reason at all. I say phoey on them. My rationale for them is "Get a life".

Spoken like a true party Rebel!

Maybe they should put up a Jar-Jar statue in New Republic City?

[Iceaxe]

Legitimate question.... so when are going to remove the monuments to William Tecumseh Sherman?

Sherman's "March to the Sea" and the pillaging, raping and burning of the South would be considered war crimes today.

But perhaps even worse is Sherman's campaign against the American Indian which was nothing short of genocide.

I'm failing to see why one is acceptable and the other is not.

http://assets.centralparknyc.org/images/things-to-see-and-do/Sherman-750.jpg

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/VirtualCivilWar/New/Washington2/images/IMG_8307.jpg

[hank moon]

Legitimate question.... so when are going to remove the monuments to William Tecumseh Sherman?

Sherman's "March to the Sea" and the pillaging, raping and burning of the South would be considered war crimes today.

But perhaps even worse is Sherman's campaign against the American Indian which was nothing short of genocide.

I'm failing to see why one is acceptable and the other is not.




I'd support removal of Sherman monuments from public space. BTW, who is saying "one is acceptable and the other is not" ?


Best movie ever about Sherman's March: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091943/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

[rockgremlin]

Legitimate question.... so when are going to remove the monuments to William Tecumseh Sherman?

Sherman's "March to the Sea" and the pillaging, raping and burning of the South would be considered war crimes today.

But perhaps even worse is Sherman's campaign against the American Indian which was nothing short of genocide.

I'm failing to see why one is acceptable and the other is not.

This is so true. Sherman's march came AFTER the Union army had sacked Atlanta, a key southern city. With Atlanta in hand, Sherman decided to add insult to injury by marching to the sea, terrorizing civilians in the wake of his 60,000 man army. In his own words, he said he needed to ride to the sea, "smashing things," to "make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war."

Almost sounds like an unnecessary victory lap.

[Iceaxe]

I'd support removal of Sherman monuments from public space.

Well there ya go.... I don't support removal of either statue as they are part of history and should remind us just how bitter war actually is.

And for the record I believe Sherman fought the way a war should be fought, and that is total war (scotched earth), I mean seriously if you are going to do something do it right.

And as a side note this is the biggest change in our fight with ISIS since Trump took over. Our armies, and those we "advise", are now encircling the enemy and annihilating them. No more of this leave the back door open bullshit so they can sneak out, avoiding conflict today but guaranteeing it tomorrow. Chaos Actual is kicking ass.....

[Iceaxe]

:-)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170601/e35cb43f185ba4084a32b7fcbd4c5fdc.jpg

[hank moon]

Well there ya go.... I don't support removal of either statue as they are part of history.

History evolves. Now, the removal of the Nawlins monuments is a new page in history - why not savor it?

[uintafly]

History evolves. Now, the removal of the Nawlins monuments is a new page in history - why not savor it?

We should erect a monument to memorialize the taking down of the monuments!

In all honesty, it's kind of a tough one once you start looking into all of the other people who have statues. Hell, the guy on our $20 committed genocide and a bunch of our founding fathers owned human beings.

[hank moon]

Hell, the guy on our $20 committed genocide and a bunch of our founding fathers owned human beings.

Would love to see all Presidents deleted from the money. The Revolution gave anti-monarchism a good jump start, but over-reverence for gov't officials has gradually crept back info favor (e.g. it's normal to address people who no longer hold office with their former titles). Poppycock! Put some real American heroes on that dough. Harriet Tubman was a step in the right direction.

[rockgremlin]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/will-donald-trump-really-replace-andrew-jackson-with-harriet-tubman-on-the-dollar20

I think Harriet Tubman is gonna have to wait till Trump is out of office to grace the $20 bill.

Wouldn't it be a delicious twist of irony if they replaced Jackson with either Sitting Bull or Squanto? :lol8:

[hank moon]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/will-donald-trump-really-replace-andrew-jackson-with-harriet-tubman-on-the-dollar20

I think Harriet Tubman is gonna have to wait till Trump is out of office to grace the $20 bill.

Wouldn't it be a delicious twist of irony if they replaced Jackson with either Sitting Bull or Squanto? :lol8:

SQUANTO for sure! 'course that's the sort of history many would prefer to forget. Kinda messes with the preferred narrative.

[Scott P]

Would love to see all Presidents deleted from the money. The Revolution gave anti-monarchism a good jump start, but over-reverence for gov't officials has gradually crept back info favor (e.g. it's normal to address people who no longer hold office with their former titles). Poppycock! Put some real American heroes on that dough. Harriet Tubman was a step in the right direction.

Off topic, but after travelling quite a bit; personally I think out money is pretty ugly (even though I like having the money of course!).

New Zealand:

http://idealog.co.nz/media/new-images/lordey.jpg

http://www.e-allmoney.com/banknotes/avs/img/n-zelandia2.jpg

http://www.ra2d.com/images/worldsmoney/New-Zealand-Dollar-NZD-Definition/nzd-100-new-zealand-dollars-1.jpg

http://www.banknotenews.com/files/new_zealand_rbnz_5_dollars_2015.10.00_b137a_pnl_aa _14123123_r.jpg

Nepal:

http://www.navyonepal.com/img/cms/info-nepal/548-x-211-Info-Nepal-valuta-money-geld.jpg

http://d2z7bzwflv7old.cloudfront.net/cdn_image/exW_1200/images/currency/np_b.jpg

http://www.e-allmoney.com/banknotes/asia/img/nepal2.jpg

Bermuda:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/87/0e/7f/870e7f50536964f19f81467946cc0ecb.jpg

https://www.theibns.org/joomla/images/stories/bnoy2009/Bermuda-2-o.jpg

Canada:

http://www.numicanada.com/medias/billets-de-banque/5-dollars-2004-rotator-01-g.jpg

Maldives:

http://acidcow.com/pics/20160921/plastic_banknotes_15.jpg

Cabo Verde:

http://banknoteindex.com/images/notes/submitted/C66688_b.jpg

https://img01-olxpt.akamaized.net/img-olxpt/873911875_2_644x461_nota-2000-escudos-cabo-verde-cesaria-evora-unc-imagens.jpg

Easter Island:

https://robertsworldmoney.com/images/smalleasterisland10000rongo-2013.jpg

https://www.banknotes.com/RN4.JPG

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/90/8c/ee/908cee0d46a74647fce9cc4c720e5531.jpg

Tanzania:

http://buzzkenya.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/10000-Tanzanian-Shillings.jpg

http://www.banknotenews.com/files/tanzania_bot_2000_shillings_2015.09.00_b141b_p42_e u_2061602_f.jpg

https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2011/5/30/0/5/b/05b904c0-6cdc-012e-a0d3-0050569439b1.jpg

[hank moon]

nice bills!

i guess a hot pic of Ivanka on a 10-spot would be ok...heck, even Grinchy Shane might thumbs-up that'n.

[uintafly]

nice bills!

i guess a hot pic of Ivanka on a 10-spot would be ok...heck, even Grinchy Shane might thumbs-up that'n.

Shane seems more like an Ann Coulter kind a guy. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170603/3cdd983f5681cd33c5b5e92f6b6c1e26.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Shane seems more like an Ann Coulter kind a guy. :2thumbs:

Smart, attractive, aggressive, A-type personally and not bat shit crazy, she certainly fits the IceAxe profile.

[hank moon]

Good stuff on Lee; worth reading the article being rebutted as well.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/448276/was-robert-e-lee-hero-or-villain (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/448276/was-robert-e-lee-hero-or-villain)

Makes a good case that these monuments are mementos of the Lost Cause, not the Civil War:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-true-history-of-the-south-is-not-being-erased/529818/

What can communities do with Confederate monuments? Here are 3 options:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/30/us/what-to-do-with-confederate-monuments/index.html

Rio's Valongo slave wharf becomes Unesco heritage site
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-40552282

[Iceaxe]

I just leave these here....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/59f3c54d012855b459250008b293344c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/8807d4d65194e50a31e5e5cbc2bb91f0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/2b8966776730168612941ee14aeb6f0c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/ec2bc36cf2ed75e4a367d0c3d180644a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/e6bf4093fb5cf788eff0a8b23699dce4.jpg

[Scott P]

I just leave these here....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/59f3c54d012855b459250008b293344c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/8807d4d65194e50a31e5e5cbc2bb91f0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/2b8966776730168612941ee14aeb6f0c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/ec2bc36cf2ed75e4a367d0c3d180644a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/e6bf4093fb5cf788eff0a8b23699dce4.jpg

Of course most people don't look like that there. Overall the South has the highest obesity rates in the country (and possibly the world).

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/a0180c82fecb3f3287a8c001b26624c7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/35049670cf3c986c7aa8ac041f9d7f0a.jpg

[Sombeech]

I don't really understand the love affair the south has with the confederacy as a whole and the flag in particular. I go to KY every year and the hillbillies pretty much treat it as a sacred symbol. At the end of the day they were traitors, and after years of death and destruction they finally got their asses handed to them. Why you would worship that time in history is beyond me.

To be fair, the hillbillies wonder why we see Delicate Arch as a sacred symbol

[Iceaxe]

Most Yankees will never understand that southern pride is about heritage and not hate.

Same way Mormon's celebrate the 24th of July, those of Irish descent celebrate St. Patrick's day and Barvarian culture celebrates Oktoberfest.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d5/9b/7e/d59b7e093dc543877a2bbbc7a850c958--redneck-girl-redneck-humor.jpg

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170809/a89bb64a429ac1cb69f711bf5825761c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170809/84c0beb73b80eff6bb3af44dce22bfb7.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Hell yeah....https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170809/b331640b07a2f210e17c1706dc3b9ab0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170809/a4178fb8180e12f744f79fcebdab67dc.jpg

[Scott P]

If you think most people in the South look like that, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

Here are the most obese states in the nation:

http://www.eatthis.com/most-and-least-obese-states-in-america-ranked

This is more typical of what you find down there:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/7c/fc/40/7cfc40fbfd582c7d20f2951be724867b.jpg




Of course, there are exceptions.

[rockgremlin]

I've been avoiding this thread and at the same time wondering why it's so popular....glad I decided to poke my nose in here.


BTW, Ann Coulter IS batshit crazy...

[Iceaxe]

I've been to the south numerous times. Back before I was married I used to spend pretty much the entire month of February in Daytona Beach and the entire month of September in Atlanta racing cars. I lived in Houston for a time. This is pretty much what all the pit lizards I was banging at the time looked like. Haters going to hate...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170810/a5babfb25fb75e2d514d451197f47200.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170810/b35f5072971177cbb4a04fb619b226c9.jpg

[Iceaxe]

In honor of Scott I was going to post a couple of pics of "healthy" chicks rocking the Confederate Naval Jack (Rebel Flag), but couldn't find any. It appears the rebel flag repels fat chicks.... so it does have that going for it....


https://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/animated-flag-gif/gifs/Confederate-battle_240-animated-flag-gifs.gif

[Iceaxe]

And in other news....

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/86/55/1286552ae7d01e3c9de0a7a6b6103a29--american-flag-american-girl.jpg

[Iceaxe]

And in today's news....https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170811/931d6d858fbfb562088e7a3bfb9efdab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170811/33491ad7318df96a87b3384ed63df698.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Can I get a hell ya!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170813/2bf0547e2637d8700065fce8b507a9d0.jpg

[hank moon]

Hell Yeah! More Lost Cause era monuments to be removed from public space.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/13/us/kentucky-confederate-monuments/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/13/us/kentucky-confederate-monuments/index.html)

===

Info on the Lost Cause, a set of pseudo-historical beliefs about the American Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_(disambiguation)) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy)

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170813/70175b311b3766c8b5307a77c1e17a18.jpg

[Iceaxe]

...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170813/d595bb03c6021ce71d0b2bb9ab58b8e7.jpg

[rockgremlin]

What are all of these red, white, and blue flags you guys keep posting? I thought this was the confederate flag:

87516

[savanna3313]

What are all of these red, white, and blue flags you guys keep posting? I thought this was the confederate flag:

87516

Ahh.....that would belong to France.


This is the only flag that counts ( imho and here in America ) :flag:
Damn - this has gotten so far off the original question/topic that I am sorry I ever posted. :roll: :facepalm1: :becca: Lesson learned. :nod:

[hank moon]

Lesson learned. :nod:

Uh, sure about that? lol

[Iceaxe]

Please explain the difference to me again as I'm just not seeing it......

North Carolina protesters tear down Confederate statue


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6koXCehHJdQ


Taliban tears down Buddha statue


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B17lAVteRKk

[Brian in SLC]

I'm not sure a person who wraps themselves in the rebel flag or posts "this is pretty much what all the pit lizards I was banging at the time looked like" could comprehend the difference.

Why would someone bother to explain the difference to you?

[Iceaxe]

There is no difference silly pony...

I mean other then the self righteous belief that you are on the correct side....

And just for the record I never did discriminate... I was just as happy banging Yankee pit lizards as I was Dixie pit lizards.

[Brian in SLC]

There is no difference silly pony...

I mean other then the self righteous belief that you are on the correct side....

I think there is a difference. And, not just because I'm self righteous.

You think the Taliban are on the right side of history?

How about the Confederacy?

The United State of America (hoo...rah) has/had spilled blood fighting against both. Do you think either was not worth fighting for?

[Scott P]

Please explain the difference to me again as I'm just not seeing it......

North Carolina protesters tear down Confederate statue


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6koXCehHJdQ


Taliban tears down Buddha statue


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B17lAVteRKk

I can give an answer, but I have a question for you as well.

What is the difference?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170813/2bf0547e2637d8700065fce8b507a9d0.jpg

http://fotos.miarroba.es/fo/32f2/2A567725522B5668B1DE2A5668913D.jpg

Both have to do with history right? Both should be celebrated, correct?

Despite people's attempts to whitewash history, from a historical standpoint, the Confederates were just as bad as the Nazis. It might not be politically correct to say so, but the comparison has a lot of merit.

[Brian in SLC]

And...Scott...as you note above, one begets the other...folks marching in Charlottesville were carrying both flags in the same group.

Reposting Mike Cernovich stuff...ugh...that guys an alt right tool. I'm sure the David Dukes of the world love him, though...

Big fan, Shane?

[oldno7]

I can give an answer, but I have a question for you as well.

What is the difference?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170813/2bf0547e2637d8700065fce8b507a9d0.jpg

http://fotos.miarroba.es/fo/32f2/2A567725522B5668B1DE2A5668913D.jpg

.


um--ones an original picture, the other a horrible photoshop,

[Iceaxe]

https://i.imgur.com/GCkAbD6.jpg

[Iceaxe]

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/colosseum-rome.jpg

We apparently need to tear this down too. Heck, they made the slaves kill each other for entertainment!

Ft Bragg is going to need to be renamed along with several other military bases.
Does Mt Rushmore need to be edited?
People are wanting Stone Mountain edited.
Washington and Lee renamed?
Should any battlefield where the Confederates won be torn up? Are they not possibly seen as glorying the Confederate army as a National Park?

Jefferson Davis' home in Mississippi is on a national registry of historical places and a National Landmark, and Vicksburg is a federal park. Should these be eliminated?

[Iceaxe]

How about this bad boy?!? We should tear this bitch down, after all slave labor was at least partially used to build a monument to commemorate a slave owner.

https://www.recreation.gov/webphotos/NRSO/pid77811/0/540x360.jpg

Leave the monuments up, because the people who want them down will never be satisfied no matter what they are given. Once the statues come down, then it's the state flags. Then it's the national monument. Any mention of the start of the country by white American. That's what the issue is. Once the "monuments to slavery" are taken down it will just move on to anything that commemorates a white person during times of slavery. Washington, Gone. Lincoln? Yeah, gone too. Just a tall ugly cracker with a goofy hat. I can imagine the Facebook virtue signaling now.

Whatever they take down, or remove, or replace is never going to be enough. Because the root problem is the erronious belief that all white people are racist, because "white racism duh". And until there are no more racist white people (or really no white people) then and only then will it be enough.

Ever met a child that said "you've given enough. I'm just taking advantage of your generosity now"? Yeah, me either.

[Scott P]

How about this bad boy?!? We should tear this bitch down, after all slave labor was at least partially used to build a monument to commemorate a slave owner.

Even if slaves did help build the monument, it never stood as a monument to slavery. Of course neither do all Confederate monuments.

The Confederate flag however, did stand for succession of the Union in defense of slavery. That is the difference.

No matter how people try to whitewash it with words of "pride" or "heritage", the fact that the flag did stand for this is still true. In latter years, obviously the flag was used for other purposed (I doubt the Dukes of Hazzard for example was promoting slavery), but historically this is what the flag stood for.

Of course people should learn of the history of the Civil war and the Confederate flag. It really isn't something to be proud of though.

While flying a Confederate or Nazi flag is part of the Freedom of Speech (as it should be), it doesn't mean that people can't be outspoken against it (as long as doing so non-violently). Freedom of Speech does not equal freedom from criticism.

I wonder how the people flying Confederate flags and honoring the monuments would feel if someone went and took their children and sold them so they could never see them again? That's exactly what happened with slavery.

[oldno7]

I wonder how the people flying Confederate flags and honoring the monuments would feel if someone went and took their children and sold them so they could never see them again? That's exactly what happened with slavery.

Bought and sold by other blacks, yea, theres that part of history..

[Iceaxe]

Slavery is a black mark (see what I did there) in American history, but it pales in comparison to the genocide of the American Indian, so why don't we deal with that first?

[Scott P]

Bought and sold by other blacks, yea, theres that part of history..

True, but that doesn't make it right. Also, many slaves were born in the US. As soon as they were old enough, they were taken away from their parents never to be seen by their family again. A lot of them were treated poorly and it was legal in most slave states.

Virginia law:

If any slave resists his master... correcting such a slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction... the master shall be free of all punishment... as if such accident never happened.

South Carolina law:

A fine of $100 and six months in prison are imposed for teaching a slave to read and write, and death is the penalty for circulating incendiary literature.

How would you feel if you were in their shoes?

https://opherworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/slave3.jpg


Slavery is a black mark (see what I did there) in American history, but it pales in comparison to the genocide of the American Indian, so why don't we deal with that first?

It is being dealt with in many ways; it just doesn't make the news as often. For example, in Colorado (where I live) and New Mexico, several places named in the honor of Kit Carson are being renamed, such as city streets, parks, etc.

http://mountaintownnews.net/2014/08/17/remember-kit-carson/

For the record, I am in favor of keeping the Confederate monuments as historical objects, but they should be considered to be war monuments, but not to be used to honor the men.

[Sombeech]

How about this bad boy?!? We should tear this bitch down, after all slave labor was at least partially used to build a monument to commemorate a slave owner.

https://www.recreation.gov/webphotos/NRSO/pid77811/0/540x360.jpg



Tear it down, it's white

[BasinCruiser]

Tear it down, it's white

Along with the WHITE house.

[Iceaxe]

Along with the WHITE house.I still can't believe Trump had the balls to toss a black family out of that Federally funded housing project, what an ass.

/Sarcasm

[hank moon]

"For supporters of the Confederate monuments, removing them from parks and avenues will be a blow against their heritage and historical memory. But the statues have often been part of an effort to whitewash the Confederacy. And it’s one thing for a statue to be merely a resting place for pigeons; it’s another for it to be a fighting cause for neo-Nazis. Lee himself opposed building Confederate monuments in the immediate aftermath of the war. “I think it wiser,” he said, “not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered.” After Charlottesville, it’s time to revisit his advice."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450470/charlottesville-virignia-robert-e-lee-statue-remove-right-decision-confederate-monuments-museums

==

"Rich seems to think that this is a good time to issue group punishment to neo-Nazi white-supremacist scum. I share the urge. Also I have no fondness whatsoever for Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, the Confederacy, or any of its symbols, and I have no emotional or other connection to the South. I find it utterly baffling that there is a statue of Roger Taney, author of the Dred Scott decision, in Baltimore. Moreover, some Confederate statues were erected specifically to antagonize black citizens during the civil-rights era.


But it is a characteristic of leftists that they are always pushing the culture wars into new territory, even territory that the Left itself would have called absurd overreach a few years previously. On Monday, the mayor of Baltimore agreed to take down its Civil War statues. By later Monday, that wasn’t good enough: The city council unanimously voted not only to remove but also to destroy the statues. One resident, Keith Scott, was skeptical about what is being accomplished here: “If you were prejudiced when it was up, you’re going to be prejudiced when it goes down,” he told the ABC affiliate in Baltimore. Prejudice hurts people. Statues just stand there, mostly unnoticed."


Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450500/destroying-confederate-statues-whats-end-point-washington-monument

[twotimer]

I don't mind black people...you mind your business, I'll mind mine. But I have a definite distrust for black males, especially the gnarly gang banger looking type. I think anyone who would willingly whip into a self-serve car wash with some of them hanging around the area is a fool.

Does that make me a racist? I would suppose that in the minds of some it would, but I couldn't care less what they think. It's all about risk avoidance.

I also think that anyone, from any "side" that would risk injury or death because of a stinking statue has shit for brains.

I live in a pretty diverse neighborhood...there are a lot of condo and apartment complexes around here. The Trayvon Martin thing was a real turning point. The older blacks are cool, but quite a few of the younger ones are dripping with attitude. Plenty of hard looks and sketchy vibes. Careful out there, boys and girls.

[twotimer]

“If you were prejudiced when it was up, you’re going to be prejudiced when it goes down,” he told the ABC affiliate in Baltimore. Prejudice hurts people. Statues just stand there, mostly unnoticed."


Bravo.

[uintafly]

I don't mind black people...you mind your business, I'll mind mine. But I have a definite distrust for black males, especially the gnarly gang banger looking type. I think anyone who would willingly whip into a self-serve car wash with some of them hanging around the area is a fool.

Does that make me a racist?


Yes, you are a racist.

You also provide a perfect example of the often mocked white privilege. There's probably no one here who thinks you would hire a black man no matter their qualifications. Also, pretty sure you would never rent a place to African Americans either.

[rockgremlin]

Yes, you are a racist.

You also provide a perfect example of the often mocked white privilege. There's probably no one here who thinks you would hire a black man no matter their qualifications. Also, pretty sure you would never rent a place to African Americans either.


^^^Very difficult for me to disagree with this. ^^^

Not wanting to operate within the same space as someone because of the color of their skin is textbook racism. You can couch it in terms of personal safety, but really that's just thinly veiled racial prejudice.

Gotta call a spade a spade here. (No pun intended) :mrgreen:

[accadacca]

In Dillon, Montana today and saw this...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170817/bbb781971cf1d25f8266982949932567.jpg

[rockgremlin]

Humans are sheep.

They're not removing memorials in Montana because they believe it's right....they're doing it because everyone else is. :roll:

Lame.

[tallsteve]

In other news, the mayor and city council of Blackfoot, Idaho, under threats of violence from Antifa, vote to rename city.

[rockgremlin]

Wonder if they'll make another run at changing the Atlanta Braves and Washington Redskins mascots again? Now's the time to do it since decrying anything remotely offensive to anyone, anywhere is now not just wildly in vogue, but has a full head of steam and hoards of pissed off snowflakes driving the movement.

Is all of this what Trump was referring to when he promised to "Make America Great Again?"

[Brian in SLC]

Humans are sheep.

They're not removing memorials in Montana because they believe it's right....they're doing it because everyone else is. :roll:

Lame.

I don't know about that...

Honestly wasn't aware of this fountain. I heard about it on social media as folks I grew up with were debating it. I'm from Montana and have friends from high school and college that live in Helena. My GF lived in Helena (and she wasn't aware of the statue).

What's interesting is the Algeria Shrine Temple located in the same block...(just off Hill Park). Anyhoo....

Montanans tend to think for themselves, and, this fountain has been controversial and in the news for a number of years. They were supposed to install a plaque explaining its history, but, that never got done.

Its actually a nice looking fountain. Too bad they can just cover the Confederacy stuff on it.

Who could/would afford 2 grand for a small fountain in a park in Helena in 1916? Weird.

No doubt the group that paid for and celebrated the installation of the fountain were lost cause folks and my bet is their descendants still have...certain feelings...

There's still pockets of, uhh, interesting folks in Montana. Where I grew up in Missoula, I remember painted on the highway for years east of Missoula a swastika (right in the middle of the highway!) and "Gestapo patrol area". Was there for years. Those folks are still around. Used to run into them in high school. Not a nice bunch of folk.

Anyhow...the town has debated what to do with the fountain for years. Sound like the majority of the people who spoke in the public meeting were for removing it.

Glad to see some of that MOM group diminishing...

[Iceaxe]

One interesting detail about the century-old Confederate statue in Durham, NC the liberals toppled....

That particular statue was meant to commemorate children that the Confederate army conscripted into its service against their will.

So rather than sanitize the Old South, whitewash its cause, or rationalize slavery, this statue actually highlighted a negative aspect of the Confederates’ history, and that aspect was put on display for all to see. Not only did it actually teach something, it spread the message about the Confederacy that these statues’ leftist protesters claim to want.

These dumbass liberals are really getting their money’s worth from those college educations..... NOT!

[Brian in SLC]

One interesting detail about the century-old Confederate statue in Durham, NC the liberals toppled....

That particular statue was meant to commemorate children that the Confederate army conscripted into its service against their will.

So rather than sanitize the Old South, whitewash its cause, or rationalize slavery, this statue actually highlighted a negative aspect of the Confederates’ history, and that aspect was put on display for all to see. Not only did it actually teach something, it spread the message about the Confederacy that these statues’ leftist protesters claim to want.

These dumbass liberals are really getting their money’s worth from those college educations..... NOT!

Says who?

This was a standard and ubiquitous Confederate Soldiers Monument statue common in the south.

Where'd you get information it was a monument to conscripted children???

Edit to add...wasn't the statue called, "Old Joe"? Hardly a child warrior.

[Scott P]

OK I have a serious question.

Not so long ago, a lot of people I know were complaining about people flying Mexican flags in the US. These same people are not supporting flying the Confederate Flag. This seems hypocritical to me. What is the difTerence between flying a Mexican Flag and flying a Conferderate Flag?

[Iceaxe]

I don't recall anyone having an issue with anyone flying a Mexican flag, I do remember some having an issue with illegal immigrants.... apple's and oranges...

I'm a Constitutionalist, which means I believe in your right to free speech and expression (among other things). I might not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it.

[rockgremlin]

^^^ One symbolizes the complete cessation from the United States of America. While the other is a whole 'nuther country.

Sounds to me like the anti-flag folks are United States or nuthin'.

Did you mean to say the anti-Mexican flag folks are in support of flying the Confederate flag? Cuz that's not how you worded it...

[Scott P]

^^^ One symbolizes the complete cessation from the United States of America. While the other is a whole 'nuther country.

Most of the Western US (including Utah) was part of Mexico just before the Civil War, so the Mexican Flag is just as much part of US History than the Confederate Flag.

We should start erecting statues honoring Santa Anna.


Did you mean to say the anti-Mexican flag folks are in support of flying the Confederate flag? Cuz that's not how you worded it...

Yes, a lot of them are. The same people that shared this kind of stuff on FB and forums are the same ones supporting the Confederate Flag.

Do you want names? I could screen shot their statuses.


I'm a Constitutionalist, which means I believe in your right to free speech and expression (among other things). I might not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it.

I respect you for that.

[hank moon]

Says who?

This was a standard and ubiquitous Confederate Soldiers Monument statue common in the south.

Where'd you get information it was a monument to conscripted children???

Edit to add...wasn't the statue called, "Old Joe"? Hardly a child warrior.


http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/one-detail-monument-liberals-toppled-changes-everything


Via Liz Shield at PJ Media (https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/wednesdays-hot-mic-20/entry-212218/), we learn that this particular statue was meant to commemorate children that the Confederate army conscripted into its service against their will.

So rather than sanitize the Old South, whitewash its cause, or rationalize slavery, this statue actually highlighted a negative aspect of the Confederates’ history, and that aspect was put on display for all to see. Not only did it actually teach something, it spread the message about the Confederacy that these statues’ leftist protesters claim to want!

[twotimer]

Yes, you are a racist.

You also provide a perfect example of the often mocked white privilege. There's probably no one here who thinks you would hire a black man no matter their qualifications. Also, pretty sure you would never rent a place to African Americans either.I have a saying..."Don't throw a wet blanket over the whole damn thing". In other words, although some stereotypes seem quite fitting, it's foolish to roll the whole crowd into the same spot. You're quite big on the assumptions here, Mr. Fly...and wrong on both counts. Tossin' that blanket around, eh?

In regards to hiring a black person to work for me, I work alone because it's nearly impossible to find someone who will show up on time, work hard all day without unloading their personal issues and drama, is reliable and honest, etc...come in without the baggage and I couldn't care less about skin color.

Also, I own and rent 4 condo's here in my complex. Over the years I've had maybe 15-20 different people come thru. Two of them were black...Vernon and Greg. Vernon lived in one from '06-'14, Greg from '08 to just last month. I would bet my life savings that if you were to declare to them that I was racist, they'd laugh in your face.

I just spent the last two weeks remodeling the one Greg was in, so I soon have to endure the freak show of applicants. I've rejected plenty of people, black and white. A solid job, no convictions, income to support the rent and references that check out are really all that are required for contention, regardless of skin color.

I'm an equal opportunity racist...I wouldn't pick up a gnarly black dude from the side of the road as well as some lily white, wild eyed, scab faced meth head. Risk avoidance...would you pick these people up? Would you take the chance?

If I happened to be near the city park and saw a group of people with helmets, shields and clubs, and they weren't the cops...I'd beat it out of the area quick. I'm curious, Mr. Fly, how far does your loyalty to social justice go? Would you risk injury or death over a statue or confronting some moron wearing a white sheet? I sure as hell wouldn't.

You're certainly right about the white privilege thing. White and trustworthy puts them at ease just as well as a gal with a great rack gets their attention. Mock it all you want...I'll light another fat cigar.

[Scott P]

But I have a definite distrust for black males


Also, I own and rent 4 condo's here in my complex. Over the years I've had maybe 15-20 different people come thru. Two of them were black...Vernon and Greg. Vernon lived in one from '06-'14, Greg from '08 to just last month. I would bet my life savings that if you were to declare to them that I was racist, they'd laugh in your face.

If you didn't trust them, why did you rent to them? :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

And so it begins.... Chicago Bishop wants George Washington's name removed from park. I told y'all this was coming....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/17/chicago-bishop-wants-george-washingtons-name-taken-off-park-in-black-neighborhood.html

[twotimer]

If you didn't trust them, why did you rent to them? :ne_nau:Scott, with all due respect...slow down a little bit and read what I actually wrote, or at least don't chop it up.

I said "gang-banger" types. You know, the ones with the pants hanging down to the knees and the colors. I reckon you don't have many of those up there in Craig, eh? I lived near Los Angeles from '77 to '93. The gang culture clothing emulates prison attire...they are given shoes without laces and no belts, hence the pants hanging down. Both Greg and Vernon were professionals...no drugs, guns or ho's. Just normal dudes.

Believe me, I've had some really rough types trying to rent from me. Trying to shove a handful of cash into my hand for the first month's rent and an application full of lies.

[Scott P]

I said "gang-banger" types.

You said black males, but especially gang banger types. Here is the full quote:


But I have a definite distrust for black males, especially the gnarly gang banger looking type.

------------------------------------------------------------------


Both Greg and Vernon were professionals...no drugs, guns or ho's. Just normal dudes.

So, say that rather than "definite distrust for black males".


I reckon you don't have many of those up there in Craig, eh?

No, but I haven't always lived here. I grew up in bad neighborhoods. My body has a lot of scars on it.

In addition, I was at Fort Wood when some of the St Louis gangs tried to break in to steal machine guns and hand grenades (imagine if gang members really were successful in stealing hand grenades!).

[twotimer]

Alright Scott, there ya go...I should have written that differently, my bad. I'll assume you get the gist of what I'm saying, especially since you've lived in rough places like I have. There are certain people you just are smart to avoid.

I was in Las Vegas in January '16 for 10 days hiking and biking...reading the local paper. A half blind, elderly Mexican man was beaten and shot by 4 gang members, all black and under the age of 20. They killed him for his cell phone. So yeah, I'll cross the street when I see dudes like that coming my way.

Savanna started this thread back in April because some folks were getting butt hurt about these monuments, now people are being beaten and killed over it. The liberal pundits have declared that anyone who supports these things is a racist...I just thought I'd come in an give my personal "racism" a clear definition. I'm not really concerned about the statues...my views are quite personal, and of course I'm criticized for it although I think it's quite logical and reasonable. IMO, of course...but opinions certainly vary.

All of this reminds me of that scene in "Indian Jones and the Holy Grail" where the Nazis are burning piles of books. The lines here are quite blurred...I've decided who the Nazis really are.

[Brian in SLC]

http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/one-detail-monument-liberals-toppled-changes-everything


Via Liz Shield at PJ Media (https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/wednesdays-hot-mic-20/entry-212218/), we learn that this particular statue was meant to commemorate children that the Confederate army conscripted into its service against their will.

So rather than sanitize the Old South, whitewash its cause, or rationalize slavery, this statue actually highlighted a negative aspect of the Confederates’ history, and that aspect was put on display for all to see. Not only did it actually teach something, it spread the message about the Confederacy that these statues’ leftist protesters claim to want!

Is that what's called, "alt news"...? Or just fake news.

Made up propaganda. Is that's what's called "white washing" history? Ha ha.

There's no mention of children in any of the dedication articles in local newspapers or in the minutes of the "Daughters" notices.

Of course...the fake news person could have misinterpreted what the "children of the confederacy" actually was/is...

[oldno7]

another confederate statue taken down

[oldno7]

,,,,

[oldno7]

...

[Iceaxe]

The real issue is the statues and monuments mean different things to different people.... and some people just can't stand the though that you don't believe as they do.

[Scott P]

The real issue is the statues and monuments mean different things to different people.... and some people just can't stand the though that you don't believe as they do.

This is true and applies equally for both the people who want the statues to stay and the ones who want them to leave.

[Brian in SLC]

This is true and applies equally for both the people who want the statues to stay and the ones who want them to leave.

And...if you spend some time reading the Confederate Veteran and UDOC documents, and get what their mission is, you'll gain a further understanding of what the "lost cause" is about.

So, there's that, then there's the current smoke screen of fake news. Its hard to sort out what is really what.

Until you see video of folks marching, or, talk to someone who's into "the cause". Then, you get it. And you get why these statues mean something to those who want them to stay. And, understand why folks want them pulled down.

I wish the folks that support them, for all the wrong reasons, would rally in an empty field instead of these historical monuments. That'd make this situation easier...!

[savanna3313]

And so it begins.... Chicago Bishop wants George Washington's name removed from park. I told y'all this was coming....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/17/chicago-bishop-wants-george-washingtons-name-taken-off-park-in-black-neighborhood.html

From the first post on this thread (by me)

My 2 cents:

With the crime rate and city deterioration escalating daily, this is what the mayor focuses on. (removal of statues) Guess it takes the heat off of him (temporarily) for the sky high murder rate and crime rate. New Orleans (very sadly) is not the city where I was raised any longer. The whole city is history - right or wrong - and what will come next? The French Quarter buildings? D.C. monuments? Where does it stop?

[savanna3313]

:popcorn:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740450_1450545118336272_8606542803450835981_n.jp g?oh=dca5c7dfbcb04434105d9be2322d9d34&oe=5A1D6959

[Iceaxe]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170819/90a9ba47613ee4b7cb3ec1ea1ef6c5b0.jpg

[hank moon]

"Don’t be sidetracked by the trendy debate over statues. Statuary is complicated. It is erected as much to signal the sentiments of the commissioners as to honor noteworthy lives. And it is built to last, so it stands even when sentiments change.

A great deal of Confederate iconography was not commissioned in remembrance of soldierly valor or mawkish depiction of genteel Dixie. It was crafted in defiant 20th-century resistance to the extension of equal rights, dignity, and opportunity to black people. Trump’s ill-informed meanderings about “culture” aside, many people taking offense at the statues have every reason to feel offended because, taken all in all, the reasons why they stand are at least as offensive as the images they convey.

Maybe if we grasp that, instead of getting hysterical over it, we can see why the loss of Robert E. Lee shouldn’t threaten Thomas Jefferson. The disappearance of an honorable soldier in a dishonorable cause is not a slippery-slope rationale for casting out the founder who grafted onto America’s soul the conceit that we are all created equal — a solemn declaration of far more enduring consequence than its author’s flaws. Pegging it at 4,500 probably exaggerates the number of Saxon pagans beheaded by Charles the Great at Verden, but to call the episode an atrocity is no exaggeration. Nor, however, has Charlemagne’s ruthlessness in battle been adjudged reason to remove his famous statue from the cathedral entrance at Notre Dame de Paris. Without him, there might have been no Europe, no Western culture as we know it, no development of the university, no magnificent cathedrals still standing.

It is a matter of perspective, of understanding changing times and our flawed nature. We can demand that our history not be erased and still realize that some of it is better recounted in book form than in stone or alloy. It should be left to the people most affected by evocative statuary to make that call."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450626/charlottesville-donald-trump-alt-right-blame-both-sides-wrong

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170819/7ce3d98f6652b52c74a416ec3d227398.jpg

[Rob L]

I still can't believe Trump had the balls to toss a black family out of that Federally funded housing project, what an ass.

/Sarcasm

I don't know about Michelle Obama, but her husband is half-white. Does half-white make him "black"? How many of you are "pure white" (whatever that means), and more to the point: how much of a tar brush does one have to be touched by to be "non-white"?

(and yes, I note your sarcasm)

[Iceaxe]

The "one drop rule" was established in the antebellum years to answer your question, but the short answer is Obama is black under the rule. You can read about it here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule?wprov=sfla1

[twotimer]

:popcorn:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740450_1450545118336272_8606542803450835981_n.jp g?oh=dca5c7dfbcb04434105d9be2322d9d34&oe=5A1D6959I stated before that I really don't concern myself with these statues very much and that the here and now in regards to my personal prejudice is really all that matters, but this post is damn powerful. How could anyone in their right mind argue against it?

Charles Barkley (love that guy) just said this whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. He said blacks (generally) don't even think about these things, and that the black community has bigger fish to fry...I certainly agree with that.

It seems to me that if the so called "race war" that the left so pines for ever happens, it'll be white people vs. white people. Sniveling liberal hipster sissies against everyone else. I can guess who's ass will get kicked.

[Iceaxe]

Charles Barkley always provides valuable and accurate insight... the sad part is if a white guy said half the shit Charles says all hell would break loose... talk about racism...

[Scott P]

One thing I have to say that race and religion are probably the two stupidest reasons to go to war over or to fight over. Unlike religion though, no one has control over what race a person is born with (Michael Jackson gets a "C" for effort though) so it is incredibly stupid to try and judge someone for that (applicable to all races, whites are not the only ones who can be racists).

The second thing is, how many people are actually participating in these violent protests, especially by percentage of the population?

As far as I can find, the biggest rally, protest, or counter protest has attracted up to 40,000 people. That is indeed a big protest, but 40,000 people is still only 0.0001 of the population. Yet people are acting like the whole nation is at war and burning the nation down. No wonder the rest of the developed world considers us to be uncivilized.

[Iceaxe]

The general population has a hard time caring about all these bullshit topics that pass as news these days.... confederate statues, gay marriage, bathroom bills, Russian unicorns, etc. I blame social media for part of this.

This is also why the 2018 mid-terms will be a blood bath for Democrats/liberals. This statue bullshit creates a visual image of our country being torn apart that will not play well for the left going forward.

If I thought removing statues would actually help things I would say go for it.... But all that is really going to happen is a bunch of angry liberals going after paintings, statues, books, freedom of speach, slave owning founding fathers... you get the idea....

#bookmarked

[oldno7]

...

[Brian in SLC]

I stated before that I really don't concern myself with these statues very much and that the here and now in regards to my personal prejudice is really all that matters, but this post is damn powerful. How could anyone in their right mind argue against it?

Charles Barkley (love that guy) just said this whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. He said blacks (generally) don't even think about these things, and that the black community has bigger fish to fry...I certainly agree with that.

It seems to me that if the so called "race war" that the left so pines for ever happens, it'll be white people vs. white people. Sniveling liberal hipster sissies against everyone else. I can guess who's ass will get kicked.

If you apply Orwell's quote (from a book of friction) to what happened in the South after the civil war, with regard to erecting statues, changing voting laws to suppress part of the population, the rewriting of the slave history, then, the quote works. To apply it to a statue erected to perpetuate a myth, to support white supremacy, to white wash history, then, it works if you consider the history and purpose of these statues from their beginning. So, yeah, depends on your POV.

http://www.teachushistory.org/american-revolution/resources/pulling-down-statue-george-iii

IMHO, the "left" isn't pining for a race war. The "left" doesn't consider all white people racist. Playing the victim card is another propaganda ploy to distract you from the alt-right white nationalistic agenda. It fully supports their mission.

Bannon: “The Democrats,” he told the American Prospect’s Bob Kuttner, “the longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em. I want them to talk about racism every day. If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats.”

And, if the left isn't focused on racism, then, out come all the memes saying they are. The source? Not a liberal.

Interesting article:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/18/16165344/steve-bannon-trump-democrats-identity-racism

To prevent another loss in the 2018 midterms (and in Utah in the race for the open House seat), there has to be a message that resonates besides "we're not them". Democratic party has to bring something to the, uhh, party. Besides Russia and race.

The statue thing is an interesting distraction. The message of folks at Charlottesville there purportedly in support of the statue never had any narrative with regard to said statue. But, their ideology represented how the statue got paid for, built, erected and dedicated those long years ago. They really are a reflection on what the statue has stood for all these years.

[twotimer]

Good link Brian, about that statue of the King. I remember hearing about that when I was a kid, thinking it was so ironic that they made bullets out of it.

I disagree with the Vox one, though. I won't bother going into why except to say that I really don't think that Trump is a racist.

On the first page of this thread, I declared my love for the movie "Gone With The Wind". Some pundit over at CNN wants it banned.

[Iceaxe]

.. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170821/befdbdeb64878852df80dc330177dca5.jpg

[Sombeech]

This movement was not started by the African Americans, it was started by privileged rich white liberal college kids.

[Brian in SLC]

This movement was not started by the African Americans, it was started by privileged rich white liberal college kids.

When I think of a privileged white kid who started this movement...this is who I think of:

87547

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

Dylann Roof is without doubt the person most responsible for the current hysteria to remove all things Confederate.

[savanna3313]

When I think of a privileged white kid who started this movement...this is who I think of:

87547

An equal opportunity agitator.
https://media.gq.com/photos/598c7dfd937f973566139b31/master/w_800/The-Making-Of-Dylann-Roof-0917-GQ-FEDR05-01.jpg

[tallsteve]

Maybe this was already posted but, I read this Tweet last week after one of the Confederate statues was pulled down. This about sums it up for me.

87548

[Iceaxe]

If I went on a shooting rampage I'd dress like this....... that would confuse the hell out of them... :lol8:



https://images.halloweencostumes.com/products/6851/1-1/fantasy-unicorn-costume.jpg

http://www.sparklingstrawberry.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/i/m/image_image_uni-2__81410.jpg

[twotimer]

Maybe this was already posted but, I read this Tweet last week after one of the Confederate statues was pulled down. This about sums it up for me.

87548Best post ever.

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170823/efaf1321a3b0986749167f3d0526205c.png

[rockgremlin]

^^^ Apparently he asked to be removed...

[Iceaxe]

^^^ Apparently he asked to be removed...

^^^Fake News^^^

This is the spin as ESPN tries to rationalize.

This is also the point in time when liberals jumped the shark with regards to the Confederate issue.

[rockgremlin]

87556

[devo_stevo]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170823/efaf1321a3b0986749167f3d0526205c.pngThis can't possibly be real??? If so, we've got real problems.

[Iceaxe]

ESPN has been in a nose dive since the 2014 ESPYs when it gave Caitlyn Jenner the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. ESPN's numbers have been in freefall ever since. I don't expect ESPN to be around in it's current form much longer. they have already been forced to get rid of all their high dollar on air talent, with the departure of the respected and well watched Chris Beman being at the top of the list. As more of the talents contracts come up for renewal more will be shown the door.

ESPN represents everything that is wrong with the PC culture.

ESPN becomes parody of itself with silly Robert Lee decision
http://www.weei.com/articles/column/reimer-espn-becomes-parody-itself-silly-robert-lee-decision

[Scott P]

This can't possibly be real??? If so, we've got real problems.

If it is real, he should sue the heck out of them for discrimination.

Anyway, below is the total number of times that I have ever watched ESPN:

0.

[BruteForce]

Small chunks of the USA are reverting to some form of mental dementia. Something in the water? Something in the air? Is it Russia or Korea? Who knows, but what I do know is that lunacy seems to taking hold on both coasts and in the press and that common sense isn't so common anymore.

[hank moon]

If it is real, he should sue the heck out of them for discrimination.

Anyway, below is the total number of times that I have ever watched ESPN:

0.

Ditto, as far as the TV station(s) go, but I'm watching O.J.: Made in America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.J.:_Made_in_America) right now and it's quite good.

[twotimer]

To me, all of this is just Occupy Wall Street reborn. The media is just a dysfunctional circus now. The only part about it that I like is all the great looking blondes with the boobs.

I wonder though, what will come next when they get done with this statue thing...?

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170824/69d1e553ec3b7bd2e7d30ef68014b78e.jpg

[rockgremlin]

^^^ Oh damn! A rare post by Acca! It's like seeing a unicorn! :haha:

[oldno7]

...

[devo_stevo]

....I wonder though, what will come next when they get done with this statue thing...?I'm waiting for the protests at Mount Rushmore to get Washington's face blown off that thing to begin. Mark my words, it'll happen. Although, it'll be after August. Gotta give ALL the bikers a chance to get out of town. Don't want anyone getting beat up.

[Sombeech]

Sometimes certain parts of history need to be destroyed in the name of tolerance.

Or am I confused on that one

[Scott P]

I'm waiting for the protests at Mount Rushmore to get Washington's face blown off that thing to begin. Mark my words, it'll happen.

It won't happen.

The reason some people are upset about the Confederate Monuments are that they were put up in a time period many decades after the Civil War. Many of them were put up as a counter symbol of the Civil Rights Movement, during the John Crow era. They aren't part of the Civil War history.

Of course it is likely that some of the people are probably protesting just to protest.

[Iceaxe]

Let's be honest, most people are not upset about the monuments, most people could really care less.

This is much more about the fringe left and media attempting to throw any obstacle they can in front of Trump. This is just another version of the Russian unicorn. If this was actually an issue with most people they would have been protesting the past eight years or longer.

[hank moon]

If this was actually an issue with most people they would have been protesting the past eight years or longer.

Trump's win energized the White Supremacy Community (how's that for a euphemism?).

Hey, it's at least as plausible as the belief that Trump is making stocks go up.

Now, where were all them nasty Crackas when Big O. was in the house? Y'know, when they really had something to act up about? Oh yeah, I forgot - they're cowards.

[savanna3313]

...

I thought I saw a resemblance there!! :roll:

:2thumbs:

[Brian in SLC]

Let's be honest, most people are not upset about the monuments, most people could really care less.

This is much more about the fringe left and media attempting to throw any obstacle they can in front of Trump. This is just another version of the Russian unicorn. If this was actually an issue with most people they would have been protesting the past eight years or longer.

The monuments have been controversial since they were put up. And, locally, they've been in the news for years.

Media and fringe left got involved as a reaction to a planned march/protest and the results. The city chose to take them down...in a slow evolutionary process that's been bubbling for years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-rally-protest-statue.html

Wasn't that many years ago, in southern towns I visited, that you could still see "colored only" bathrooms at county courthouses.

Have the "alt-right" folks been emboldened due to Trump? Well...look at the MAGA hats on folks carrying confederate and nazi flags. See any on the protesters?

Yeah, most of us are pretty far removed. But, even the LDS church issued multiple statements ON THE SAME DAY in the aftermath of this. Are they in collusion with the fringe left? I don't think so. What they are is aligning to be on the correct side of history?

Trump had a chance to get on board. He did, then he when off script (again) and lost it. He continues to disappoint. When he looses the alt-right he's done. After backwalking the Afghanistan situation...he's losing more and more ground every day...

Even Newt Gingrich knows good people don't walk with folks carrying swastikas. Trump is creating his own obstacles...

[devo_stevo]

It won't happen.

The reason some people are upset about the Confederate Monuments are that they were put up in a time period many decades after the Civil War. Many of them were put up as a counter symbol of the Civil Rights Movement, during the John Crow era. They aren't part of the Civil War history.

Of course it is likely that some of the people are probably protesting just to protest.I like to think that you're right about that, but quite honestly, I don't think that most of the people at the protests think about it that much. Human beings have strong leanings toward a herd mentality. All it takes is for a few like minded people to say "hey, that guy owned slaves and we built a giant monument to him. That's not right and it shouldn't be there." Then come the yeah-sayers and the others to join the fun, and suddenly you have a movement.

I do hope you're right, though and it doesn't happen there. That was one of the most impressive monuments that I've been to. Absolutely wonderful, and it would be a real shame to see it changed over something like that.

[Iceaxe]

When he looses the alt-right he's done. After backwalking the Afghanistan situation...he's losing more and more ground every day...

All I know is that as long as you liberals hate him, then Trump must be doing something right.

If you think his base will abandon him you are living in a fantasy, because as long as Trump continues to cause liberal heads to explode his base will stick with him.

The only ones predicting that Trumps base is crumbling is "Fake News", you know the guys I'm talking about, they are the same news media that predicated Trump stood a snowballs chance in hell of ever winning the Presidency.

#Bookmarked #MAGA #FakeNews

https://i.imgflip.com/1hx9dg.jpg

[Scott P]

If you think his base will abandon him you are living in a fantasy, because as long as Trump continues to cause liberal heads to explode his base will stick with him.

This is true. Trump himself alluded that he could shoot someone and people would still vote for him.

Personally, I don't think "making the liberals head explode" was part of the campaign promises.

The prominent Republican leaders only care about their own power and punishing the Democrat party, and the Democrats are the same toward the Republican party. Then people wonder why this country is so divided.

If this is your idea of winning and what is really good for this country, then you are mistaken.

[Brian in SLC]

If you think his base will abandon him you are living in a fantasy, because as long as Trump continues to cause liberal heads to explode his base will stick with him.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/21/trumps-america-first-base-unhappy-with-flip-flop-afghanistan-speech/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/22/11-times-breitbart-news-has-highlighted-trumps-broken-campaign-promises/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/22/how-afghanistan-could-put-trumps-presidency-at-risk/

Bannon is on the loose!

[twotimer]

Who cares what Breitbart thinks? I think you've taken the bait, Brian. If the liberal media says it's so, it's bullshit.

[hank moon]

87576

❤️ South Park

[Scott P]

Who cares what Breitbart thinks? I think you've taken the bait, Brian. If the liberal media says it's so, it's bullshit.

Are you saying that Breibart is the liberal media?

[Scott P]

Seems at least fairly accurate and spot on in most cases (though I would make some adjustments):

http://ei.marketwatch.com//Multimedia/2016/12/15/Photos/NS/MW-FC101_news_20161215131112_NS.jpg?uuid=dd9266d2-c2f1-11e6-9176-001cc448aede

[hank moon]

Seems at least fairly accurate and spot on in most cases:

Wow, they forgot to include the memes.

[twotimer]

Are you saying that Breibart is the liberal media? No...sometimes I post things that require a little "reading between the lines".

Brieitbart doesn't speak for me, neither does Fox...But I do like Tucker Carlson and The Five. The mainstream liberal media will claim that they are the "voice" of the Trump supporters.

I know for a fact (some of my liberal clients) that CNN or MSNBC etc...don't speak for them, either.

NPR is a piece of shit, BTW.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

[accadacca]

Talk of renaming USC mascot’s horse sends people galloping to the internet in outrage

"A story Thursday in The Daily Trojan reported that a speaker at a USC rally called attention to the name of the mascot’s horse, Traveler, which is similar to the name of a horse ridden by Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee during the Civil War – Traveller. Saphia Jackson, co-director of the USC Black Student Assembly, told the crowd that white supremacy hits close to home in reference to the mascot’s horse, reported the USC newspaper."

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/college/article168860427.html#storylink=cpy

[hank moon]

Talk of renaming USC mascot’s horse sends people galloping to the internet in outrage

"A story Thursday in The Daily Trojan reported that a speaker at a USC rally called attention to the name of the mascot’s horse, Traveler, which is similar to the name of a horse ridden by Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee during the Civil War – Traveller. Saphia Jackson, co-director of the USC Black Student Assembly, told the crowd that white supremacy hits close to home in reference to the mascot’s horse, reported the USC newspaper."

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/college/article168860427.html#storylink=cpy


Yay - outrage! The secret to MAGA.

[Scott P]

Talk of renaming USC mascot’s horse sends people galloping to the internet in outrage

"A story Thursday in The Daily Trojan reported that a speaker at a USC rally called attention to the name of the mascot’s horse, Traveler, which is similar to the name of a horse ridden by Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee during the Civil War – Traveller. Saphia Jackson, co-director of the USC Black Student Assembly, told the crowd that white supremacy hits close to home in reference to the mascot’s horse, reported the USC newspaper."

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/college/article168860427.html#storylink=cpy

:facepalm1:

[accadacca]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/hx0DY1jDJAVBm/giphy.gif

[oldno7]

Wow, they forgot to include the memes.

....

[oldno7]

....

[Sombeech]

Trump himself alluded that he could shoot someone and people would still vote for him.


I must have missed this direct quote from Trump.

[Brian in SLC]

I must have missed this direct quote from Trump.

You must have.

http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-fifth-avenue-comment/

Video of him saying it...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-i-could-shoot-somebody-and-not-lose-votes-video

[Iceaxe]

Am I the only one to notice liberals are now out chasing the NFL unicorn?

What happened to the Russian unicorn and the Confederate unicorn?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/64bda6b24fd711899f9f3ba6b959936d.jpg

[twotimer]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/64bda6b24fd711899f9f3ba6b959936d.jpgNow that there would be hours of entertainment. A little trashy, but that's OK.

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/6b18ecf472d53c532f18efcaf4b36a07.png

https://www.facebook.com/KUTV2News/posts/10155935401919406

[Iceaxe]

Now that there would be hours of entertainment. A little trashy, but that's OK.I have a weakness for redneck girls, probably why I married one...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/37230b44fd3c9416e16d26815a51e6c7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170930/ff388debb4b3ee43086dcd9f88458c26.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Boom!!!

George Washington Plaque Honoring First President Must Come Down.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/10/28/george-washington-church-plaque-honoring-first-president-must-come-down

[Iceaxe]

And just when you think you've heard it all from the bat shit crazy left... now they want to ban our "racist" National Anthem.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/07/california-naacp-seeks-to-remove-star-spangled-banner-as-national-anthem.html

[rockgremlin]

California’s NAACP is pushing for state lawmakers to support a campaign to remove “The Star Spangled Banner” as the country’s national anthem.
The group says the song, which has been a point of controversy in the NFL, is “one of the most racist, pro-slavery, anti-black songs in the American lexicon,”


Can someone explain to me exactly how the Star Spangled Banner is "the most racist, pro-slavery song in the American Lexicon"?! For hell's sakes, wasn't it written about the American Revolutionary War?


That's a serious question. I really would like to hear someone make a rational argument that purports the National Anthem is a "pro-slavery" song.

I'm all ears.

[Brian in SLC]

Can someone explain to me exactly how the Star Spangled Banner is "the most racist, pro-slavery song in the American Lexicon"?! For hell's sakes, wasn't it written about the American Revolutionary War?

Nope. War of 1812.



That's a serious question. I really would like to hear someone make a rational argument that purports the National Anthem is a "pro-slavery" song.

I'm all ears.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

FSK was pro-slavery. Folks think the third verse was celebrating killed slaves who joined the British cause.

[Scott P]

For hell's sakes, wasn't it written about the American Revolutionary War?

As Brian said, it was the war of 1812. Francis Scott Key wasn't even born until 1779.


Folks think the third verse was celebrating killed slaves who joined the British cause.

To be fair though, no one, or at least almost no one sings that verse. Most people don't even know it exist and they wouldn't unless the issue was brought up. Is there anyone at all that sings the verse in question? I have only seen it on paper in historical context and have never heard it sung.

Most books I am familiar with have long purged that verse from the lyrics. For example, here is the LDS hymnbook:

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/the-star-spangled-banner?lang=por&clang=eng

Lyrics



1. Oh say, can you see, by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thru the night that our flag was still there.
Oh say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
2. On the shore, dimly seen thru the mists of the deep,
Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream;
’Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh, long may it wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
3. Oh, thus be it ever, when free men shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation!
Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the heav’n-rescued land
Praise the Pow’r that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

[Brian in SLC]

^^^
Kinda looks like the version the US went to during WWI. Allied with the redcoats, we didn't want that third verse to bum them out, apparently.

Yeah, you never hear the third verse.

Interesting history especially of how armies were populated. Paid mercenaries and former slaves hoping to get a crack at their former masters. Probably an effective propaganda tool.

[rockgremlin]

Thanks Scott & Brian...

I think I fall into the broad spectrum of mainstream America who has absolutely no idea there's a racist third verse to the National Anthem.

[Brian in SLC]

I think I fall into the broad spectrum of mainstream America who has absolutely no idea there's a racist third verse to the National Anthem.

I don't think its that black and white (ahem, so to speak).

There's verbiage in there about "freemen" and it was known that free slaves fought for the US.

Its hard to know FSK's intent. And, given the times, nothing can be more frightening than your property (a slave) joining a foreign force and taking up arms against you. They'd be a pretty motivated force, methinks. Again, effective propaganda tool for both sides.

So...I dunno. Sure part of the history of the day. I don't really understand the call to have it removed (and am not for that). Song gives me goosebumps. Best version? Hard to beat Whitney Houston's version of it. Jennifer Hudson has a set of pipes for it too. Kind of ironic when you think about it...

[Iceaxe]

FWIW - during the war of 1812 slaves were promised freedom if they fought for the British. More than 4000 slaves were freed under this program, which was the largest emancipation of slaves until the Civil War. Mercenaries (hireling) were also a large part of the British forces. I believe the destruction of those two groups are who FSK was referencing in the third verse, your mileage may vary.

So.... now my question.... the African-American have their panties in a bunch over this one sentence... but the entire song is really about kicking British ass... so why don't those of English descent have their panties in a wad?

Enquiring minds want to know?

[Scott P]

The solution seems simple. Francis Scott Key intended to write a poem rather than the National Anthem. No one sings the original 3rd verse anyway. Just declare the other versus the National Anthem.

The vast majority of the Americans that known the National Anthem know and sing the first verse only.

In my entire life, the only time I have ever heard or sang any versus of the National Anthem other than the first was in church and we never sang the original 3rd verse. The original 3rd verse has already been voluntarily purged from lyrics sheets and song books anyway and has been for several decades.

Before it all of the sudden became an issue, unless you were a history buff, relatively few people in modern days knew the third verse even existed.


so why don't those of English descent have their panties in a wad?

Ironically, the tune is from England.

[Iceaxe]

Ironically, the tune is from England.

Even better it was a drinking song....

The song was written for the Anacreontic Society around 1771. The tune is now thought to have been written "collectively" by members of the society. The society met every two weeks to get drunk, sing songs and to indulge in debauchery. Anacreon himself was a Greek poet from about 570BC who was noted for his erotic poetry


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAIdVKv84g

[Scott P]

Even better it was a drinking song....

The song was written for the Anacreontic Society around 1771. The tune is now thought to have been written "collectively" by members of the society. The society met every two weeks to get drunk, sing songs and to indulge in debauchery. Anacreon himself was a Greek poet from about 570BC who was noted for his erotic poetry

Yes, and for those who enjoy history, the last line of each six verses is about getting laid.

It's too bad school textbooks sometimes don't make history interesting. It is when you get down into it, especially with little details such as the tune from the National Anthem coming from an English drinking song that was also about getting laid. These kinds of things need to be in the textbooks, so kids and adults are more interested in history.

[Iceaxe]

LMAO..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171124/43bb4740fee179643e475c3687f33cfa.jpg

[rockgremlin]

Yes, and for those who enjoy history, the last line of each six verses is about getting laid.

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave"?

???:ne_nau:

[Scott P]

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave"?

???:ne_nau:

Shane and I were referring to the Anecreon song (drinking song with sexual innuendo) from where the tune from the national anthem comes from. The last line of each verse in the Ancreon song is as follows:

"The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."

[Rob L]

I spent three days in Georgia (the US State) and northern Florida a few weeks ago. They were all very polite but were utterly convinced that they would NOT see their Confederate statues and flags taken down. (The expression "over my dead body" was used several times).

As a foreigner (not an alien :haha:), I don't understand the history fully, but as a European, I see some similarities with what happened in the 1920s and 1930s in Europe. And the modern fad of trying to "delete" history.

Rob

[Iceaxe]

There are a few Confederate Flags I'd love to see removed..... :roflol:

http://www.gunco.net/forums/attachments/39228d1440871427-confederate-flags-tumblr_mf3n21abqm1rkljoeo1_500.jpg

http://luckypuppy.net/BLOG/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/rebel-girl2.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/49/bd/5d/49bd5d27aec2249b267eb274c8878a86--southern-pride-southern-girls.jpg

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/75442f9966c1ce3ae506576399043341.jpg

[rockgremlin]

^^^ Local forum creeper posts image of woman in need of mechanic creeper.

Seriously, can't get too much done on a bath towel spread out over the lawn.

[Iceaxe]

And just when you think you've heard everything.... Boom!

University professor says math is racist and promotes white privledge.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/24/white-privilege-bolstered-by-teaching-math-university-professor-says.html

[devo_stevo]

And just when you think you've heard everything.... Boom!

University professor says math is racist and promotes white privledge.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/24/white-privilege-bolstered-by-teaching-math-university-professor-says.htmlWow. That's some serious stretching there. It's a good thing that we're all paying so much money for a higher education so that we can be taught be people like her. She must really hate her job and if she has any principles left in her body, she should quit today rather than perpetuate all that whiteness through math.

[Iceaxe]

More insanity from the liberal left....

Yoga contributes to white supremacy.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/29/americans-who-practice-yoga-contribute-to-white-supremacy-michigan-state-university-professor-claims.html

[devo_stevo]

Jeez. That's stretching there. Just goes to show that some folks just wake up in the morning looking for a reason to be upset about something. Talk about a waste of time and energy.

[Sombeech]

Yoga contributes to white supremacy.

We need to make sure Yoga pants stay


Jeez. That's stretching there.

Speaking of stretching, please see my point made above

[Iceaxe]

We need to make sure Yoga pants stay

If I ever meet the guy that invented yoga pants I'm going to give him a big kiss right on the lips.

[Brian in SLC]

Jeez. That's stretching there. Just goes to show that some folks just wake up in the morning looking for a reason to be upset about something. Talk about a waste of time and energy.

Yeah, did you notice how all the libtard fake news media outlets picked up on those stories?

Me neither. Glad Fox is on it, though. Got to keep the base riled up. Beats having them focus on real issues.

And...ditto on "active wear". Whew...amazing how the dress codes have changed...

[devo_stevo]

Yeah, did you notice how all the libtard fake news media outlets picked up on those stories?

Me neither. Glad Fox is on it, though. Got to keep the base riled up. Beats having them focus on real issues.

And...ditto on "active wear". Whew...amazing how the dress codes have changed... Yes, I did notice that. I do find it interesting that all these stories like that seem to only appear on Fox News.

As for the pants, that's a double edged sword. I've seen those pants stretch a little too much far too often.

[oldno7]

As for the pants, that's a double edged sword. I've seen those pants stretch a little too much far too often.

so are you suggesting regulations on yoga pants?:naughty:

[devo_stevo]

so are you suggesting regulations on yoga pants?:naughty:I would defend your right to wear yoga pants, but what about my rights not to see you in yoga pants? Where do your rights end and mine begin?

[Brian in SLC]

Yes, I did notice that. I do find it interesting that all these stories like that seem to only appear on Fox News.

Yeah...its like, you should be offended because liberals told you to be offended.

(Insert sound the Gen'l Lee makes when its jumping a creek...the tune Dixie I think).

As far a yoga pants...you gots to take the bad with the good...

[DirkHammergate]

As far a yoga pants...you gots to take the bad with the good...

I've probably made some decisions I wouldn't have normally made due to the advent of yoga pants as acceptable wear over the last few years. Then again.... you only live once.

[Scott P]

That's it; I'm wearing yoga pants to the next canyoneering gathering.

[DirkHammergate]

That's it; I'm wearing yoga pants to the next canyoneering gathering.

Oh you dirty Devil

[Sombeech]

That's it; I'm wearing yoga pants to the next canyoneering gathering.

Looks like I'm attending the next canyoneering gathering

[rockgremlin]

Looks like I'm attending the next canyoneering gathering


Bring your wig and cucumber. Maybe I'll bust out the speedo again...

[Iceaxe]

The insanity (stupidity) continues... California high school bans national anthem because it's racist.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/13/high-school-students-ban-national-anthem-from-pep-rallies-what-heck.html

[rockgremlin]

National Anthem

https://i.imgur.com/xV3sl.gif

[Sombeech]

The insanity (stupidity) continues... California high school bans national anthem because it's racist.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/13/high-school-students-ban-national-anthem-from-pep-rallies-what-heck.html

They've gone Full Retard

[oldno7]

They've gone Full Retard


On their behalf----they didn't have far to go....pretty short trip..

[Brian in SLC]

They've gone Full Retard

Never go full retard...

Here's the Fox News final language in the article....

However, a leadership adviser (a grownup) told the student newspaper (https://www.thecalifornianpaper.com/) that she agreed the national anthem is “problematic” and should have been removed.
Well, that’s just great. The teacher is actually encouraging young people to disrespect American values and traditions. It’s unacceptable and inexcusable.
The Star Spangled Banner may have survived the bombs bursting in air, but it may not be able to withstand the rampaging mob of politically correct inclusivists.

I guess it is an opinion piece...but, that's a bit over the top. Rampaging mob...yeah...right.

Is it bad to be an "inclusivist"?

Its funny 'cause the school district, on their FB page, has a group of kids singing the national anthem and presenting an American flag at a Warriors game...

Another example of certain media whippin' up the base.

[Iceaxe]

...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180214/c19ab73ef9136e557fd405c270a8b3d8.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Another example of certain media whippin' up the base.

So it's Fox News fault that the left has gone full retard?!?

LMAO

Typical liberal view... no such thing as accepting personal responsibility.

You do realize if the left would avoid stupidity Fox would not report it don't you?

[oldno7]

Isn't it amazing how the east coast/west coast liberal idiots all want to move here.

Then they want us to become like the shitholes they left.

[Sombeech]

Does anybody reach out to the incoming immigrants waiting for legal citizenship status, and ask them why they would ever want to come to such a racist horrible country? And to they also wait to hear the laughter in response?

[Brian in SLC]

So it's Fox News fault that the left has gone full retard?!?

LMAO

Typical liberal view... no such thing as accepting personal responsibility.

You do realize if the left would avoid stupidity Fox would not report it don't you?

So much goodness in one movie...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

Went full retard, went home empty handed...

Typical propaganda bullshit. Some kids in high school voted to not play the national anthem at pep rallies...and their reason for doing so is lost in the mud. All of a sudden, its the whole left that's to blame and by the way, they don't accept personal responsibility. Talk about painting in broad strokes.

And you wonder why people think that if you voted for Trump your a bigot and misogynist.

You guys drinking the toxic Fox news are the ones that have gone full retard.

How's your goosestep, comrade?

[twotimer]

And you wonder why people think that if you voted for Trump your a bigot and misogynist.

You guys drinking the toxic Fox news are the ones that have gone full retard.

How's your goosestep, comrade?What makes you think we care "what people think"?. Racist, misogynist, homophobe...sign me up!

The goose-step works great, BTW.

[Iceaxe]

You guys drinking the toxic Fox news are the ones that have gone full retard.

How's your goosestep, comrade?

Yeah... that's probably why Fox News is No. 1 cable news network for 63rd straight quarters. That's over 15 years in a row if you have trouble with math.

So the majority is wrong... again, typical liberal view of the world.

:popcorn: