18 to 21 can now apply for and receive a concealed carry permit in Utah

[accadacca]

Thoughts?

A legislative proposal that would allow young adults ages 18 to 21 to apply for and receive a concealed carry permit passed the House by a 63-12 vote and goes to the Senate.

[Iceaxe]

I doubt Herbert will ever sign it.

[rockgremlin]

Dickhead Herb will slap this thing down faster than you can say "draw."

[Sombeech]

The younger that people can learn and take training for responsible firearm safety, the better.

[middlefork]

Young people can learn and take training for responsible firearm safety at any age.

At 18 the government will hire you to give you training for responsible firearm safety.

And to agree with Ice and Rock there is no way this won't get vetoed if it passes.

[Iceaxe]

We send 18 year olds off to war with real assault rifles (not the pretend ones the anti gun establishment is always whining about) so if they are mature enough to lay down there life protecting our freedom they are old enough to carry a firearm for self defense.

FWIW - my kids were 7 and 9 when I sent them through hunters safety. My kids were around firearms at a very early age so I figured it best if they knew gun safety ASAP.

[Brian in SLC]

Young people can learn and take training for responsible firearm safety at any age.

At 18 the government will hire you to give you training for responsible firearm safety

You mentioned it twice...training. Something very much lacking in concealed carry permitting.

I trust a drill sergeant to impart some training on an 18 year old especially with regards to firearms. Probably "reinforced" training.

You don't have to do much of a google search to figure out why this is bad idea jeans...

http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/the-adolescent-brain-beyond-raging-hormones

http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013/03/20/decision-making-is-still-a-work-in-progress-for-teenagers/

http://www.livestrong.com/article/1002532-signs-maturity-teens/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/

http://www.futurity.org/impulse-control-comes-late-for-teens/

I just don't think especially 18-19 year old males have the maturity and judgment to carry a concealed weapon.

As much as I didn't mind the drinking age being raised from 18-19 then to 21 in my home state of Montana (close to when I was hitting those ages)...I recognized that "teenage drinking" was an issue (lost a friend in High School to drunk driving). Just like kids can learn responsible drinking in the home, so can they learn firearms safety. Outside the home? Not so much.

Ever do anything stupid when you were a young male teen? Now, toss a gun into the mix.

Also, doesn't federal law prohibit the sale of a handgun to anyone under 21? From the ATF:

Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee? Yes. Under the Gun Control Act (GCA), shotguns and rifles, and ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 18 years of age or older. All firearms other than shotguns and rifles, and all ammunition other than ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 21 years of age or older. Licensees are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA regardless of State or local law. However, if State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age for the purchase or disposition of firearms, the licensee must observe the higher age requirement.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) and (b)(2); 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

Anyhow...I think its a bad idea. Seems like its in the news all the time here in Utah, where teens are bringing guns to school, etc, with not great results. That wouldn't get better with teens packing legally.

Lack of impulse control, judgement, maturity...all of those could be mitigated by a proper amount of training. But, that won't be required (nearly criminally easy to get your CCW permit here in Utah...just an hour at a gun show and you're good to go).

Heavy sigh...

[tallsteve]

I think I'll have to side with Brian on this one. That age group doesn't have the maturity level to keep their emotions in check enough. Sure, there are exceptions but, for the most part they are too quick to anger with too many emotional and psychological peaks and valleys. I could possible change my mind if the qualifications for obtaining a CC permit included some very in-depth training which include proving you can actually shoot and handle your firearm safely.

[middlefork]

So according to Brian's ATF quote the state is trying to pass another law that run afoul of the Feds. What a surprise!

I personally don't agree with the whole CCP deal to begin with. But...................

If you were king how would you handle it?

[Iceaxe]

:roll:

The problem here is Brian doesn't know the law..... It is NOT illegal for someone between 18 - 21 to possess a handgun. It is illegal for someone between the ages of 18 -21 to purchase a handgun FROM A DEALER.

Dealers may not sell or deliver a handgun or ammunition for a handgun to any person the dealer has reasonable cause to believe is under age 21.

Unlicensed persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person believe to be under age 18.

In other words the adjustment Utah wants to make to its CCP is in line with Federal law.

My kids owned handguns when they were 18, My daughter turned 21 in December and already has a CCP. I wished she could have obtained one at 18 since she is 300 miles away at college. It's not like we didn't already have to file a lawsuit against the university to allow her to have a handgun in her dorm, which was prohibited in on campus student housing, but denied her second amendment rights and is against Utah law. The University lost that one. I want my kids to have the ability to protect themselves. YMMV

[Brian in SLC]

The problem here is Brian doesn't know the law..... It is NOT illegal for someone between 18 - 21 to possess a handgun. It is illegal for someone between the ages of 18 -21 to purchase a handgun FROM A DEALER.

I never said it was illegal to possess. What you fail to have is reading comprehension, apparently. Spread some more fake news, will ya?

I know teens can possess since I've had (and had access to) a handgun since I was well younger than 21.

My point was, that, under 21 can't purchase a pistol or ammunition for a pistol. There's a reason for that.

And, its not like there aren't straw buyers out there. This makes that situation worse.

Trolley Square, anyone? Hello?

As far as your kids, specifically? Sure, no problemo. We're not talking about "your" kids. Why would she need a gun in her dorm? Yeah, I'm talking about THOSE kids...and that they can carry concealed is pretty frightening.

That said, there's some frightening information about women who have a gun in their home...

“More than twice as many women are killed with a gun used by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than are murdered by strangers using guns, knives, or any other means.”

I'll take good ol' murder suicide for a hundred, Alex.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/having-a-gun-in-the-house-doesnt-make-a-woman-safer/284022/

Back to teens and guns, you need look no further to getting an understanding of this age demographic and risk than being a teenager and trying to rent a car:

https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/misc/index.jsp?targetPage=Hertz_Renting_to_Drivers_Unde r_25.jsp

Or, buying car insurance.

Teenage boys do stupid things. Its in their (our) DNA.

You want 'em strapped? Legally? Really?

[Iceaxe]

My point was, that, under 21 can't purchase a pistol or ammunition for a pistol

Again you are wrong. If you are under 21 you can purchase a firearm and ammunition. You can't purchase from and FFL holder, but you can purchase from anyone that is not an FFL holder.



You want 'em strapped? Legally? Really?

As a parent of young daughters living hundreds of miles from home, yes, I want that option for them.

[Brian in SLC]

Again you are wrong. If you are under 21 you can purchase a firearm and ammunition. You can't purchase from and FFL holder, but you can purchase from anyone that is not an FFL holder.

True. Not that I'm wrong...I just left out the detail of buying from an FFL holder. Which I'd referenced originally.

But, straw purchases will be an issue...

"Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm to you."

http://www.npr.org/2014/06/16/322650543/supreme-court-rules-against-straw-gun-purchases

Until they "close the gun show loophole"...

How do you think these teenagers going to obtain their pistols to conceal? And ammo?

[rockgremlin]

My kids owned handguns when they were 18, My daughter turned 21 in December and already has a CCP. I wished she could have obtained one at 18 since she is 300 miles away at college. It's not like we didn't already have to file a lawsuit against the university to allow her to have a handgun in her dorm, which was prohibited in on campus student housing, but denied her second amendment rights and is against Utah law. The University lost that one. I want my kids to have the ability to protect themselves. YMMV


Wow. Nice job enforcing the 2nd amendment rights. Its a little surprising that you'd have to go to such lengths in such a conservative gun-friendly state.

I will however, mention that your daughter is at SUU....in Cedar City. Not exactly South Philly. I've lived here for about four years now, and it's about as vanilla as you'd expect. Toting a gun around might be overkill (pun intended). I dunno, maybe during the peak of the Shakespearian Festival things get out of hand?

[Iceaxe]

SUU is a Utah state school and concealed carry is legal at Utah state schools as per our state laws. There are currently only a couple of states where this is legal so the reference to any other state is null and void.

[Iceaxe]

Until they "close the gun show loophole"...

ROFLMAO.... you know as well as I do that the mythical gun show loophole doesn't exist and is nothing but a scare tactics used by the anti gun crowd to try and scare the uninformed. Legally buying a firearm at a gun show requires an FFL transfer.

My kids get their ammo from my stash or reload their own (from grandpa's components)... and I can only dream of the day they actually buy their own. I assume that is where most kids get their legally obtained ammo. My kids received most of their guns as a gift from me and grandpa. So I assume all kids that legally own firearms also obtained them in a legal fashion. Otherwise they are criminals and criminals are not allowed to possess firearms.

I do not advise breaking any firearm laws, but that appears to be what you are advocating.

[Iceaxe]

Toting a gun around might be overkill

I'm a big believer in its better to have and not need than to need and not have.

YMMV

[Brian in SLC]

ROFLMAO.... you know as well as I do that the mythical gun show loophole doesn't exist and is nothing but a scare tactics used by the anti gun crowd to try and scare the uninformed. Legally buying a firearm at a gun show requires an FFL transfer.

ROTFLMAO (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ROTFLMAO&defid=366725) A chatroom abbreviation used mainly by imbeciles, usually in response to something mildly, often very mildly, amusing. People who use this type of shorthand should be avoided like the Spanish flu.
I would've married her, but I found out that she goes into chatrooms and uses shorthand like LOL and ROTFLMAO. Therefore, I broke off our engagement and changed the locks to my apartment.

Har har. Now you need some edjumacation. I bought two pistols last year, from two different sellers at the South Towne Crossroads gun show...they were both private sellers and therefore, not required to have me fill out that yeller form. Unless you think private gun sales should be illegal?

Colorado closed the loop hole. Trump's SCOTUS pick was from, where, again?

But, we're parsing words. We both know the rules, probably better than most.


I do not advise breaking any firearm laws, but that appears to be what you are advocating.

Not at all. I'd like to see "well regulated" access to firearms. I'm just realistic. You give kids the legal right to carry concealed, they'll find a way to get a gun. Legal or not. There's no requirement in Utah to tie your firearm to your permit, right? Unless, you think that's a good idear too?

So, why encourage or facilitate illegal behavior?

As well as show ANY proficiency. And a psyche exam.

Give a teen a cell phone and a car. See the problem?

What is the benefit to society by permitting teens to carry concealed?

I see needing safeguards against most of todays male teens...(ha ha)...

Another issue...how they going to distinguish, with their only partially formed frontal lobes, the difference between Halo 3 and reality? Some of these kids are socially retarded. Kids used to get bloody noses on the playground. Now? They solve their problems...differently...

[Iceaxe]

What is the benefit to society by permitting teens to carry concealed?

Please show me where it says anything about "benefit to society" anywhere in the Bill of Rights? As I must have overlooked that paragraph.

Why do you think you should be allowed to carry concealed? Now answer "ditto" to those exact same reasons with regards to 18-21 years old.

PTIYPASI

[Brian in SLC]

Please show me where it says anything about "benefit to society" anywhere in the Bill of Rights? As I must have overlooked that paragraph.

Why do you think you should be allowed to carry concealed? Now answer "ditto" to those exact same reason with regards to 18-21 years old.

PTIYPASI

Constitution: to ensure domestic tranquility.

I don't think most people should be allowed to carry concealed. In fact, they should bump the age up and require a lot more rigor to the permitting process.

https://site.utah.gov/dps-criminal/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/01/2016Q4.pdf

[twotimer]

Oh my!...haven't seen a thread get quite this rude, stupid, defensive and downright mean lately.

With that said, I think Iceaxe's argument is both persuasive and reasonable.

[Brian in SLC]

Oh my!...haven't seen a thread get quite this rude, stupid, defensive and downright mean lately.

With that said, I think Iceaxe's argument is both persuasive and reasonable.

Not sure what thread you're reading...

I've not found it any of those things. Shane is welcome to come over for an adult beverage right now if he chooses, guns and all.

What about Shane's argument to you find persuasive and reasonable?

[twotimer]

Not sure what thread you're reading...



What about Shane's argument to you find persuasive and reasonable?I'm reading this one.

In regards to reasonable...I wouldn't be bothered by an 18 year old with concealed carry.

The persuasive part goes along with the reasonable bit. But I (obviously?) was wrong in determining the rudeness with words like imbecile and such. It just seemed a bit ugly and unpleasant to read. Carry on...

[rockgremlin]

I think Brian in SLC hates guns...


What do you think, @Sombeech (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=6)?

[Sandstone Addiction]

It's already legal for anyone 18 or older, that can legally possess firearms, to carry a loaded handgun in their vehicle. They can also legally open carry a handgun or any other legal firearm in public. I personally don't see a problem with adding the ability to carry their firearm concealed in a purse or waistband.

I highly doubt that a young adult would just wake up one day and decide to purchase a handgun and apply for a permit to carry concealed. The ones that will take advantage of this opportunity will most likely have been trained by responsible parents or mentors over many years. Like Iceaxe's daughters.

Young adults texting and staring at their smart phones while driving makes me a whole lot more nervous.

[Brian in SLC]

I think Brian in SLC hates guns...

Yeah...there's a whole lotta hate in my house right now...ha ha.

From my cold, dead hands...

85945

Carry on, my wayward sons...

[twotimer]

Young adults texting and staring at their smart phones while driving makes me a whole lot more nervous.BINGO! Mix legal pot with that and it's like negotiating an asteroid field.

[Sombeech]

I think Brian in SLC hates guns...


What do you think, @Sombeech (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=6)?

No, just the bullets

[oldno7]

It all comes down to this:

Do you trust people to be free?

Or--do you require government to tell you you can be free, with stipulations?

There will always be stipulations but were to draw that thin red line....

I'll stick with trusting citizens and all the consequences associated with that choice

vs. the guv. and all the consequences associated with that choice, when it comes to gun issues.

A government that has no fear of citizens, is a government with total power.

I prefer that not to happen.

Some of us have repeated it many times but without the 2nd, there would be no first!!!

[oldno7]

Freedom has drawbacks for some folks--

most notably, responsibility and accountability.

For those who can't handle those principals,Maybe Trump can do his own monument designation for criminals, maybe an island somewhere--maybe long island.

Eminent domain and with the stroke of a pen, instant pre fab, prison....

And the progressives could call it an internment camp for the less fortunate.

I think it's time the East share in the antiquities act.

[oldno7]

In 1643, there were 13 Indian tribes on long island, that fact alone should help with the use of the antiquities act.

Maybe those tribes could help in the management of new prison.

[Brian in SLC]

Some of us have repeated it many times but without the 2nd, there would be no first!!!

There appears to be no correlation especially as of late...

http://www.wnd.com/2017/02/fox-news-star-erupts-on-trump-in-fake-news-rant/

http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2017/02/22/arizona-senate-crackdown-on-protests/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/25/source-trump-admin-institutes-media-black-out-for-epa-suspends-social-media-activity.html


For those who can't handle those principals,Maybe Trump can do his own monument designation for criminals, maybe an island somewhere--maybe long island.

I think that island might be called "Mar-a-lago"....ha ha. Aka the new white house.

You know, its where those white collar criminals hang out.

Crazy times.

[Iceaxe]

Just waiting for Herb's signature.

Lawmakers approve concealed firearms for 18-year-olds
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=43439012&nid=960

[Sandstone Addiction]

:clap: :2thumbs:

Is he going to sign it?

[Iceaxe]

From some comments Herb made yesterday I don't think he is going to veto anything that passed.

[accadacca]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170325/3ff3e1632a88c5719ee9e29d938913af.jpg