How to stay warm canyoneering.

[dakotabelliston]

We are running Heaps next Sunday & my group brought up the question how do we stay warm. I've heard a lot if different techniques so I want to hear opinions on these techniques.

Wearing 2 wetsuits: example a shorty 3/2 mm under a Full 5mm. How well does this work?

Wearing your thermals under your wetsuit. I have not tried this and I have my doubts. Does this work?

I don't like the thought of a drysuit and can't afford it. It's also hard to find a wetsuit thicker than 5mm in my experience.

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[jman]

I find what helps me are these two things, besides a wetsuit:

-Always moving (even if slowly). Which means having everyone proficient at rappelling; knowing how to leap-frog at raps, having most people help with rope management, etc.

-Having a insulated bottle (I use a 22oz Hydroflask) with hot water to sip on throughout the canyon.


The second option is probably the biggest help, in my opinion.



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[hank moon]

Thread title should probably be more specific: like, "How to stay warm in Heaps in October"

A book could be written on the subject as warmth is influenced by many variables, such as age, fitness, overall health, quality of recent meals and last night's sleep, etc. In-canyon, second Jman's "keep moving" mantra, which implies an efficient/competent team. Might be comforting to have hot liquids, but a thermos is heavy. Nutrition and hydration are super important. I'd leave the thermos out and bring plenty of high-quality calories to keep energy levels up. Wetsuit thickness is not as important as its overall efficiency, which means it fits well with good elasticity (so as not to impede movement), with minimal water exchange (good extremity seals and no holes). Of course it needs to be thick enough, but thickness is not the main consideration. I generally prefer a semi-dry wetsuit with minimal external facing to reduce evaporative cooling. For Heaps in October, might be better to have a good drysuit. Moot point, for sure.

To sum up: be fit, healthy, well-fed and rested; take the right people and stuff and know how to use it. Have a plan for efficient movement. Ideally, be very familiar with the canyon, having done it several times before. Plus all of the standard canyon safety points re: weather, early start, etc.

Plenty more could be said, but...

hank

p.s. Quality warm headgear is essential. This thing (http://www.patagonia.com/product/r3-surf-cap/89400.html) is fantastic. Spendy, but totally worth it IMO. Definitely take some type of warm headgear, preferably designed for wet use.

[Slot Machine]

We are running Heaps

First, stop saying running, unless you are going to take a kayak through Heaps. It's like saying Zions, it makes everyone cringe and mutter a word that rhymes with boob. :haha:

For Heaps I'd suggest:
5mm wetsuit
Neoprene vest that you can throw on over your wetsuit if you get really cold. Can't really take the bottom layer 3/2 shorty off if you overheat, right?
Neoprene beanie, mandatory IMO
Lots of food and lots of water. Staying full and hydrated helps a ton.
Neo gloves.
I'm currently liking the Lavacore socks. Not as warm as the ZAC 5mm, but they don't destroy your feet. Lavacore is about as good as 2-3mm of neo.
Compact hooded puffy and thermals for the end of the canyon after the wetsuit comes off. Be really careful about your drybag, being wet and cold at the end of Heaps SUCKS. Ask me how I know...

[Bootboy]

I'll second most of what's been said. Like hank said, a well fitting wetsuit is better than a thicker one that doesn't fit well.

I find that I stay warmer when wearing a thinner wetsuit with a vest than with a thicker overall suit so long as I keep moving.

Speaking for myself, the weight and impedance of carrying and wearing 2 suits would be a losing proposition.

Another consideration is that heaps involves a fair amount of walking between it's technical portions.
It takes more energy to move in a thicker suit. My 5/4mm impedes my movement significantly more than my 3/2mm with a vest. Calories are saved as you move more efficiently.

Stop for QUICK calories more often than you think you may need in colder conditions. Keep moving, you get farther behind the curve the longer you sit still.

Keep a shell jacket handy to stop the evaporative heat loss.


I don't know if you or anyone in your group has done Heaps before but you're likely aware of the special challenge of the final sequence

Specific to Heaps regarding safety: Be sure to take time before starting the sequence to WARM up and get comfortable. I usually carry a beanie, warm fleece and long pants/tights through Heaps with this warm up/prep in mind. That, in my opinion is the most important place to be warm and otherwise comfortable.




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[dakotabelliston]

Thanks for the input!!!!

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[ratagonia]

Stop for QUICK calories more often than you think you may need in colder conditions. Keep moving, you get farther behind the curve the longer you sit still.



Cookies. Fats, protein.

things that are mostly sugar do not keep you warm, because they disappear too fast.

Important to also drink water. I kinda hate to when in a dry suit or wet suit, but it is important when eating to take at least a couple gulps of water.

I usually have almost a small meal when de-suiting in prep for the final raps. Wanna stay sharp for that.

Logistically, it is easier if you bring enough cookies to share, and when you notice yourself or others getting bumbly or cold, pull out the cookies and put them in people's mouths. We are often reluctant to go to the trouble of getting stuff out... if only one person has to get stuff out, it works much better.

Those Almond Butter packets are pretty choice too.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Cookies. Fats, protein.

things that are mostly sugar do not keep you warm, because they disappear too fast.

Important to also drink water. I kinda hate to when in a dry suit or wet suit, but it is important when eating to take at least a couple gulps of water.

I usually have almost a small meal when de-suiting in prep for the final raps. Wanna stay sharp for that.

Logistically, it is easier if you bring enough cookies to share, and when you notice yourself or others getting bumbly or cold, pull out the cookies and put them in people's mouths. We are often reluctant to go to the trouble of getting stuff out... if only one person has to get stuff out, it works much better.

Those Almond Butter packets are pretty choice too.

Tom

By quick I meant do it quickly. Not quick burning calories like sugar. My favorite canyon food is pepperoni. High fat, high protein. +1 for the almond butter.

Sugar at about 100 calories an hour is for approaches, not so much IN a canyon like Heaps.

[jswvi]

How'd it go?

[dakotabelliston]

How'd it go?
Heaps is this upcoming Sunday. I'll post a TR after the trip.

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[jswvi]

Thanks. I look forward to it. Heaps is fantastic. Should be a beautiful weekend. We are headed for Imlay the weekend after and wondering about wet vs drysuits. I just bought an O'Neill Assult hybrid suit. I'll give it a try waterskiing this weekend and consider from there. I'm wondering if it is the holy grail of warmth and tear resistance. I think most of the group is leaning to drysuits from ZAC.

And the neoprene gloves are the best.Should have bought those a long time ago.

[Canyonero]

The one consolation about canyoneering in the cold is that water can only get so cold.

There are lots of great canyons to do in October. Not sure I'd put Heaps on that list. Probably warmer than May though, even if you need to move faster due to the shorter day. Heaps permits aren't that hard to come by, so I might do something else and come back to Heaps next summer, but that's just me. I also don't show up to do the Black Hole on New Years.

Wetsuits work very well as long as you keep moving. If you get stuck on a pothole for a while or your group doesn't manage rappels well it could be a pretty cold day. I sweated like a dog in a 5 mm in July moving fast though. Knowing how many holes I routinely put in dry bags which are INSIDE my pack, I'm pretty hesitant to canyoneer in a dry suit, but I'm told that a leak isn't as bad as one would think.

Read those threads from those guys who do FreezeFest to get the real scoop. They have all kinds of tricks like dish gloves inside your other gloves to reduce water transfer.

Also, if you go with the 5 mm Imlay neoprene socks, wear something else for the approach and put them on at the start of the wet stuff. They're tough on feet on a 9 mile hike.

[jswvi]

The one consolation about canyoneering in the cold is that water can only get so cold.

Also, if you go with the 5 mm Imlay neoprene socks, wear something else for the approach and put them on at the start of the wet stuff. They're tough on feet on a 9 mile hike.

Bummer about the neoprene socks. I have some 3 mm that fit really well and I've hiked a lot with them without trouble. In fact, I wore them for a week straight on Denali. I didn't want to carry lots of socks, so I figured I'd just sweat in the neoprene socks. Mostly they kept the sweat inside of the socks and the boots on the outside stayed dry and warm. This was nice. When I got into camp I'd dry out my feet and put on down booties. The neoprene socks would freeze pretty solid at night and putting them on was especially unpleasant in the morning. Then they would thaw and go back to being full of sweat, but soft and pleasant against the skin instead of hard and crusty like used socks. After a couple of days, I can tell you they had a particular funk. I had to bury then in a cache after a week and a week later the funk was unabated.

[moab mark]

Did u go?

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[dakotabelliston]

I was all geared up to go & got the flu the night before I was supposed to leave. Ended up spending my weekend in bed. Horrible luck for me

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[hank moon]

I was all geared up to go & got the flu the night before I was supposed to leave. Ended up spending my weekend in bed. Horrible luck for me

:-(

Did the trip run w/o you? If not, perhaps you would share how the decision was made to cancel the trip? What were the main factors in the decision? Was it a group decision? Unilateral, etc? Was the decision made for reasons of safety? Logistics? Any details appreciated.

hank

[dakotabelliston]

:-(

Did the trip run w/o you? If not, perhaps you would share how the decision was made to cancel the trip? What were the main factors in the decision? Was it a group decision? Unilateral, etc? Was the decision made for reasons of safety? Logistics? Any details appreciated.

hank
I wasn't guiding this trip so yes the trip went on without me. I was supposed to drive down Friday night, do a warm up canyon on Saturday, & do Heaps on Sunday. I caught the flu Thursday night & was sick through Friday night. I was feeling better by Saturday afternoon but still malaise & I didn't want to chance hindering my group. If I were guiding this trip it would have been canceled but do to the fact that I was not they went on without me.

A friend of mine who has done Heaps multiple times actually put this trip together & knowing I haven't done Heaps yet he invited me along. We had a group of 5 including myself. The other 4 went & did Heaps in 1 day leaving from lava point. They did the direct exit & told me everything went good. They did mention in the last narrow section it was cold enough that could see their breathe but they moved quickly and stayed warm.

For some reason my Heaps plans always seam to fall through. Next year I will definitely make it happen !!!

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