Grotto canyon by accident

[Court]

Deleted


(a note from Sombeech, this post has been added again later in this thread. Thanks for posting again, Court )

:popcorn:

[Scott P]

As I got closer I could see that it was close but not close enough. It was a solid 12-16 feet short. I had to pull up the log tied to the end and untie it. I took a few deep breaths and jumped off the end of the rope and miraculously landed very well and didn't get hurt at all!

:shock:

[2065toyota]

I think I would have passed a knot and rapped down the remaining on the 6mm cord before I jumped. This is coming from the person sitting on the couch with a broken leg

[dakotabelliston]

Glad you are okay !!! Luckily you were not injured, that is a fairly large drop. If I remember correctly that is how the guy died on "Not Imlay" last year. He dropped off the end of the rope & ended up rolling off the next ledge. Be safe !!!

[harness man]

Dear Court
Solo canyoneering: bad idea
Rappelling on 6mm: REALLY TERRIBLE idea (8mm is accepted minimum diameter canyoneering rope)
Jumping off end of rope: worst idea of all.
Leaving junk in canyon for others to clean up: not good form.
Dropping into unknown canyon without being certain of location: c'mon man, all this together will get you dead.
Please get with some experienced canyoneers and learn to do it right!

[ratagonia]

Dear Court
Solo canyoneering: bad idea
Rappelling on 6mm: REALLY TERRIBLE idea (8mm is accepted minimum diameter canyoneering rope)
Jumping off end of rope: worst idea of all.
Leaving junk in canyon for others to clean up: not good form.
Dropping into unknown canyon without being certain of location: c'mon man, all this together will get you dead.
Please get with some experienced canyoneers and learn to do it right!

What he said.

Although... I am not so much against soloing, as I am against publishing anything to do with this. Why publish this - just so everyone knows what a dumbass you are?

:moses:

[Rob L]

It's his first post, Tom, please give some leeway.

I'm all for open discussion / confession / fair and constructive criticism, but calling someone a "dumbass" after their first post is unfair and not worthy of a man of your experience, and is unlikely to bring the person back to our shores.

Rob

[kiwi_outdoors]

Tom - his post is in fact valuable to the canyoneering community. I'll let you figure out how.

[Sombeech]

Wow, that could have gone bad more than once. Glad you're alright, and while hindsight is 20/20 and you can see every mistake you made, it took balls to post your story here with the certainty of criticism. For that, we thank you for posting.

Did you happen to take any pictures? That, may be less forgivable than the navigational mistakes you made.

[Taylor]

Sorry Rob but I agree with Tom. To the original poster: very cool hiking route and one I would like to try but where was your map/compass/gps? Even a smart phone with one of a dozen different mapping apps would have pinpointed your location. I don't understand how anyone ever gets lost. Glad you made it home safely.

[ratagonia]

It's his first post, Tom, please give some leeway.

I'm all for open discussion / confession / fair and constructive criticism, but calling someone a "dumbass" after their first post is unfair and not worthy of a man of your experience, and is unlikely to bring the person back to our shores.

Rob

It's not his first post. It is his first post on Bogley, and he is otherwise a public figure.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Tom - his post is in fact valuable to the canyoneering community. I'll let you figure out how.

And terrible in so many ways... I'll let YOU figure out how.

Tom :moses:

[harness man]

To Court and Fellow Canyoneers
All personalities aside-
How best to comment on said adventure that (from a canyoneer's perspective) amounts to a suicide mission?
I originally thought the post was a joke, and then became concerned that it was real....
I hope that Court's posting /confessional means that he will be seeking proper instruction for the next canyon
or moving onto other exciting sports that will not ultimately involve SAR.
EVERYONE here CARES Court (but we have different ways of expressing it! :mrgreen:).

[ratagonia]

Tom - his post is in fact valuable to the canyoneering community. I'll let you figure out how.


That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Hitchen's Razor.

If you would like to make the CASE for the value of this post, please do.

Tom

[harness man]

To put this in perspective...
Eons ago winter ice climbing in the Rockies my cocky / noobish / younger self decided (after half a dozen frozen waterfalls)
that it was time to "take the gloves off" and free solo one of these babies.
I picked a likely looking 500 foot grade five-ish flow with a walk off at the top and started up.
About three quarters of the way up, on the vertical cruxy section, the tube pick on one of my Lowe Hummingbird axes began
to come loose...
I had no wrench to tighten it, so would just freak out and pray every time I had to pull on it while placing the other tool.
After another 30 feet, I blasted a rock with the OTHER tube pick, and now bent and deformed, it was not sticking very securely in the ice, either.
By a miracle, and with pants full of piss I, eventually made it up, off, and down.
That evening by the stove, I reported my epic adventure to my fellow climbers.
They said,
"You stupidmoronidiotboneheadcrazyfbombdipshootdinglebe rrybozosheepforbrainsfool."(I think "dumb ass" may have been in there too.)
"you never, ever, ever, EVER go SOLOING ICE without a SPARE TOOL.
and maybe an emergency screw or two.
:mrgreen:

[twotimer]

Court...ignore anyone that busts your chops for going solo. I've been doing solo epics for 28 years, so does Mike Kelsey and the King of solo adventuring...Harvey Butchart. Self righteousness...yeah, says you.

With that said, I have to wonder what kind of reaction your were expecting with your post. Have you been around this forum very much? I hate to say it, but it kinda feels like a trolling thread. Not that I doubt that it happened.

You sort of blew it with this one. Just tellin' ya straight up. However, I'd hike with you anytime because I like that you've got guts...pretty ballsy peeling off a 12 footer. I paint houses for a living and it's functional with a good landing zone. Something I certainly wouldn't recommend to the clumsy folks with little body zen.

Glad you didn't jack yourself up...I've had a couple close calls myself. Now go back and clean up your mess...maybe take someone with ya, huh?

[Glenn]

I'm glad a certain someone gave me a head's up about the post so I could read it before it was deleted. What a trip; glad you came out of it okay. And count me in as someone who also enjoys traveling solo.

And for all the finger-wagging, I'm sure everyone here has been in a pinch or two and managed to luckily get out. Hopefully, lessons learned for everyone.

[jman]

I'm glad a certain someone gave me a head's up about the post so I could read it before it was deleted. What a trip; glad you came out of it okay. And count me in as someone who also enjoys traveling solo.

And for all the finger-wagging, I'm sure everyone here has been in a pinch or two and managed to luckily get out. Hopefully, lessons learned for everyone.

Dang, you are right.

I was going to map out in Google Earth and check out his path...

[TommyBoy]

And for all the finger-wagging, I'm sure everyone here has been in a pinch or two and managed to luckily get out. Hopefully, lessons learned for everyone.

Its not that he got in trouble, its that he made a series of rather stupid mistakes that miraculously didn't result in getting hurt. While you could argue that the tone should have been a little nicer I think he deserves the finger wagging for his post.

1. He did a canyon solo, while its not the dumbest thing in the world to do, you need to be very careful and plan/prep very thoroughly if you do this. He went light on gear and didn't seem to be prepped very well according to the story.

2. He admitted he really had no idea where he was when trying to drop into Hidden, at this point he should have followed the trail and just hiked back down the mountain. Instead he made one of his stupidest mistakes of the day he said F-it I'm just gonna drop into this canyon here and hope its the right one.

3. When he got to the end and realized he might not have enough rope he should have stayed put and waited for rescue, if he had told someone his plans (Hidden) they would have found him since after looking in Hidden I'm sure they would have checked Grotto, IF not then that would be another mistake and a very big one to make if planning to do solo canyoneering. Instead he went for it with no idea how short the rope might be since he couldn't see the bottom.

[harness man]

Tommy Boy X2!
To be clear:
I also enjoy soloing stuff, from time to time.
Post should have read:
"solo canyoneering: bad idea for the inexperienced/ unprepared."
Gotta thank Court for his post though, keeps things interestin'

[Rob L]

Well he's cleared his OP, so well done all the nay-sayers. :nono: Shame on you.

One of the ways for people to become educated in these sports is learning from the mistakes of others, and that's a very difficult thing to do. Normally we learn the hard way, and that's not so forgiving.

Rob

[twotimer]

He stated that he had ascenders...only an absolute fool would take off down a rope with complete uncertainty about it's length.

Hey Court, this is a great forum and it's quite usefull...don't be discouraged by a couple of dudes that spit at you...they frequently have done that to just about everyone here for some stupid self righteous reason or another. Being criticized for doing something truly stupid may be justified, but I personally laugh in the face of anyone that would give me a hard time over an honest mistake.

But, like I said earlier...you really should have considered the possible reaction before posting it in the first place...what good did it do anyone? Especially you? It just opened the door for the snobs. I'm glad you deleted it...maybe come back in with a different user name if that'll make you comfortable...and never mention that incident again.

[Taylor]

I was going to map out in Google Earth and check out his path...

I can recreate his route if you want...

[harness man]

Then let the education continue..
Rappelling on 6mm rope?
On purpose? (As opposed to a last resort).
What good will "ascenders" do on that stuff?
:ne_nau:

[TommyBoy]

What good will "ascenders" do on that stuff?
:ne_nau:

If they are mechanical ascenders not a darn thing, if he brought something to make a prussik with, that might work, I can't remember what he said in his post.

[Sombeech]

Well, that's too bad he deleted his post. Criticism shouldn't be banned nor discouraged, but calling somebody stupid for their mistakes or lack of preparation should be discouraged.

Court, it would be appreciated if you would continue with your story here. It's unfortunate some of us who are self described as Tolerant and Open Minded, can be just the opposite. We are a mixed bag here, truly diversified with varying opinions and reactions. I think it's valuable to post your trip, including the mistakes you made, and welcome a discussion about it.

It's like the lack of wearing a helmet. Everybody knows they should be worn, but sometimes there is a newcomer to the sport who is excited to post their trip, but instead are met with harsh criticism. After all, who would wear a helmet walking through Little Wild Horse Canyon? So, helmets should be encouraged, but the lack of them shouldn't be met so harshly that the member doesn't want to post here ever again.

So, while I'm an administrator here and could probably find the original post in a database backup, I think it would be great if you would post your story again and we could all take a little lesson on courtesy and helpful feedback.

Thanks, and to those that were a little harder on your criticism, c'mon guys, let's ease up on the new members here.

[Scott P]

Criticism shouldn't be banned nor discouraged, but calling somebody stupid for their mistakes or lack of preparation should be discouraged.

Agree. Especially for a new member.

[Iceaxe]

I am not so much against soloing, as I am against publishing anything to do with this. Why publish this - just so everyone knows what a dumbass you are?

:moses:

Way to make a new member feel warm and welcome. Please try to not be such an asshat next time.


:asshat:

[Iceaxe]

For the record I have nothing against soloing, I have done it countless times. When going solo you just have to understand the risks are much higher and proceed accordingly. Solo is the same old game but with different rules and penalties.

[Glenn]

Solo is the same old game but with different rules and penalties.

Might be my new tagline. :2thumbs:

[hank moon]

Might be my new tagline.

How about: Solo is a very different game, but with the same old penalties*

*(e.g. death, dismemberment, paralysis, etc.)

[kiwi_outdoors]

Tom

IF the post is genuine - it shows that just because some folks have good canyoneering sense and basic technical skills - such knowledge and practice does not "rub of by osmosis" onto all the newbies. Net result is some folks may do stupid things and get hurt if it ends badly. If such practice gets worse - all Canyoneering may be banned in Zion and/or elsewhere, or else be permitted more severely? So can we do anything to improve the situation?

A big complication is that we humans are partly chemical computers, and can make bad decisions despite having good knowledge. As I did in Australia when I crashed a hang glider while car towing!

BTW - my surname is Hitchings - close enough, eh?

[2065toyota]

I'm sitting at home with a new plate and 12 screws in my leg from canyoneering accident. No apparent mistakes were made and had I been soloing, it would have been a very bad situation.

Same old saying, 'everything is good, until it isn't'

I personally think it is not smart to go solo, but everyone is entitled their own opinions. I also don't think there is ever any reason to go solo, as partners to go with are pretty easy to come by.

Maybe Tom's word were a little harsh and maybe should have just been said in a quiet voice and not sent out to the the forum. I know I thought the same thing he said.

[Brian in SLC]

It's not his first post. It is his first post on Bogley, and he is otherwise a public figure.

Tom

Well, according to Courtney Purcell....it wasn't him. Who do you think it is, Tom?

The mystery thickin's...is there even a rope, "still hanging there right now"?

Was this a troll?

[cp0915]

Well, according to Courtney Purcell....it wasn't him. Who do you think it is, Tom?

The mystery thickin's...is there even a rope, "still hanging there right now"?

Was this a troll?

I did not post the TR nor was I a participant in the epic it describes. Considering that I've not posted on Bogley in years, it's sort of creepy that someone chose me as the subject of their project. Should I be flattered or appalled?

Courtney Purcell

[Ryan Marsters]

Ha. Both obvious (and apparently successful) trolling. My money's on Tom.

Quick hike up and down Twin Brothers, plus Mtn of the Sun and Deertrap S Buttress prior to Hidden? Yeah... I can think of few people capable of that kind of day. Much less with the route familiarity to complete it in said day. Actually, sounds kind of fun.

PS he would've had to ascend the 6 mm to get out of Spry on the way back from TB. He would've had to downclimb Twin Brothers without a rap. Doable, but very sketchy.

[Iceaxe]

I did not post the TR nor was I a participant in the epic it describes. Considering that I've not posted on Bogley in years, it's sort of creepy that someone chose me as the subject of their project. Should I be flattered or appalled?

Courtney Purcell

The username was "Court" so I'm guessing it was not a troll but just a new member that showed up and picked that name not knowing we already had a Courtney. And I'm guessing the user has now been run out of town because someone made a dumbass "assumption".

[nelsonccc]

Damnit, as usual I'm late to the witch burning. Did anyone screenshot the OP? Dying to read it now....

[nelsonccc]

Thanks to some over on Facebook I found it on a google webcache back up. I'm guessing troll due to the route.

[Taylor]

Here is the route:

On Saturday April 2 I sent out to do a solo linkup of some of the peaks on the East side of Zion. I started by hiking towards spry canyon and after the first rap I

bailed out right to gain the south ridge of Twin Brothers. I descended the North Ridge Of TB and then climbed Mountain of the Sun. I then hiked back south and

gained the south ridge of Deertrap.

I think it's doable...

[Glenn]

Well, the "troll" not only seems to have a pretty good knowledge of the area (at least until dropping into the wrong canyon) and they signed it "CP"

Clearly an intent at misdirection at the very least.

[Glenn]

I did not post the TR nor was I a participant in the epic it describes. Considering that I've not posted on Bogley in years, it's sort of creepy that someone chose me as the subject of their project. Should I be flattered or appalled?

Courtney Purcell

Since your signature points to a non-working website, sounds like that backs up your point about not having posted in years. :roll:

[Scott P]

Was this a troll?

Perhaps, but trolls usually don't delete their post after criticism. In fact they post in order to cause a stir.

[2065toyota]

We were in Spry last year eating lunch and heard a loud noise behind us, a solo guy comes walking out of the crack and had also just went off the end of his rope which was 15' short. We spend a while trying to help him get it down with sticks and branches.

Another very stupid decision. He was soloing the canyon, knew the rope was too short for the rap when he started off from the top, and had 200' more rope in his pack.

I have no idea what people are thinking sometimes

[Scott P]

If this is a troll (and there is a good chance that it is), it is one of the most successful trolls I've ever seen in a forum.

Thus far, the post has:

1. Created a bunch of shock from a seemingly incredible story.

2. Started a debate about shaming.

3. Caused Tom to call a public figure a dumbass.

4. Caused Shane to call Tom an asshat.

5. Caused some to believe that the highly experienced Courtney Purcell was the person who the mishap happened to and who would make a bunch of rookie mistakes and would post about it publicly.

6. Caused Sombeech, one of the Bogley moderators to ask people to be nicer to new members.

7. Caused the well known Courtney (who is missed), and who hasn't posted on Bogley since 2011 to come out and post again.

8. Caused a spillover discussion on FB.

9. Created credibility about not being a troll by deleting the original post.

If this is a troll, it was certainly a well executed and successful one. :haha:

[Scott P]

Having not been to Grotto Canyon, is the story even possible? Could you get to within a few feet of the bottom of the last drop with a single 60m rope?

[alphasteve42]

Fun thread to read... The OP is my close friend. I suggested he post here as a lessons learned and to see if anyone saw or recovered his line. Guess not.

[hank moon]

Having not been to Grotto Canyon, is the story even possible? Could you get to within a few feet of the bottom of the last drop with a single 60m rope?

Another "dropped into Grotto by accident" tale from the Collective

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/live-and-learn.18983/

[Scott P]

Another "dropped into Grotto by accident" tale from the Collective

Yes, I have read that. That's why I'm asking above. That report makes it sound like a 60 meter rope is not even close to enough? Tom also says 260 feet for the rappel.

[Scott P]

The post may be legit. There is another public figure with the initials CP and with the name "Court" in his name that also frequents Zion.

[twotimer]

I think it's legit...it just had a "troll" feel to it. I just couldn't understand why he put it up in the first place. Surely he knew he'd get barked at...it was like a legit/troll combo.

I think he was happy that he didn't force himself to sit on a ledge with this thumb in his mouth waiting for SAR. Personally, I probably would have done the same thing...considering getting down was actually functional...but I would have walked out of there thanking my lucky stars and kept my mouth shut about it.

[Sombeech]

Fun thread to read... The OP is my close friend. I suggested he post here as a lessons learned and to see if anyone saw or recovered his line. Guess not.

Hi Steve, interesting to hear OP is a real person with a real story, too bad some of us have the terrible manners we criticize others for displaying. It would benefit the community at large, not just bogley, if Court would reply here and clarify a few things, simultaneously correcting some harsh criticism received.

Thanks for posting.

[harness man]

Periodically we get 'clever' individuals who ignore manufacturer's WARNINGS
and then go out and epic (or die).
Tom is a canyoneering rope manufacturer and distributor.
I am a canyoneering rope distributor and rappel device manufacturer.
What seems like over reaction might be an attempt to save this individuals life by encouraging them NOT to attempt this again,
AND, more importantly, speaking to the broader community, that 'ultra-lighting' by rappelling on 6mm of anything is extremely dangerous/ and therefore
INCREDIBLY DUMB to do on purpose.
And I think the poster knows this.
The thin cords when sandy also slice up Zion sandstone pretty easily

[hesse15]

Hi Steve, interesting to hear OP is a real person with a real story, too bad some of us have the terrible manners we criticize others for displaying. It would benefit the community at large, not just bogley, if Court would reply here and clarify a few things, simultaneously correcting some harsh criticism received.

Thanks for posting.
I"think everybody does mistakes but there are 3 kind of people
1 person die
2 person survive and learn and does not repeat same mistakes
3 person survive believe is a super smart ass and the weekend after take bunch of newbies to experience the same trill.


lately I am encountering lot of #3 and usually are the more sensitive to any form of criticism. but not only they are dangerous for themselves but usually tend to take newbies desperate to go canyoneering and putting their lives at risk. I think that is why Tom posted that way. those people are dangerous and need to be known.

Sent from my Venue 7 3730 using Tapatalk

[Rob L]

I'm astounded by the last two posts by Harness Man (whom up to now I respected) and hesse15, and the general sense here that people willing to confess openly to errors should be lambasted in such a way.

If this was a group around a table: "Hi, my name is Rob and I messed up in a Canyon" we'd have a poke and a laugh and then we'd all seriously learn.

In this sport, the most difficult thing to learn is to learn from other people's mistakes. The loss of the OP has reduced this community's ability to learn, and that is not good.

Rob

[Brian in SLC]

In this sport, the most difficult thing to learn is to learn from other people's mistakes. The loss of the OP has reduced this community's ability to learn, and that is not good.

Rob

Concur!

The loss of the opportunity for everyone to learn from this is a bummer. We've all done less-than-intelligent things. We learn and move on, and, when you share these mistakes, then the community gets a reminder of best practices, etc.

Too bad there's not a continued, constructive dialog. Heavy sigh.

[TommyBoy]

Rob L I think for the most part the tone has been just about right, there have been a few that were rude and I agree that probably isn't the most productive way of teaching, but most were stern yet fair. What the OP did WAS stupid, however what's worse is he didn't come off as acknowledging how bad it was in his post. Maybe he did feel bad about it and I just didn't get that from the post and if so I'm sorry. He didn't just make one mistake though, he made a series of bad decisions that ultimately could have gone a lot worse.

The community can and should learn from the mistakes of others, but part of that learning includes the scolding of those who know better so that those less experienced who are reading understand just how bad his decision making was that day. To give him a slap on the wrist and a "don't do that again now" lessens the severity of his mistake which is not in the best interests of the community.

[alphasteve42]

I would love to answer any specifics about the mishap. I appreciate the calls for a kinder tone. One can express concern with out a scolding. Imho. Trust me we value honest and informed construct critism. How the 60m line got close enough to "safely" drop on the last rap I am unsure. I'll ask. I know he made some natural anchors somewhere. Important to note, he did not know he was in the wrong canyon until he was beyond a point of no return. Note. The route he followed began with the start of Spy. To those that are critical of the thin line your concern is noted and appreciated. (I have rapped on this same line many times.) For my own info may I ask of an example of a 6mm line failure when used doubled up and not due to hardware errors or abrasion, I am saying tensile failure?

[TommyBoy]

I would love to answer any specifics about the mishap. I appreciate the calls for a kinder tone.
alphasteve42 I am a little curious for more details on his thoughts when he was looking for Hidden. His post made him sound rather uncertain of where he was and if he was even at Hidden at all. This is what I think was his biggest mistake of the day, as a solo canyoneer uncertain of which canyon he was at he should have just headed down the trail.

[hank moon]

One subtext of this thread: how best to alert/ward and/or educate the unwary when sketchy stuff pops up that might be emulated.

Two basic approaches: bad teacher / good teacher. The bad teacher attempts to frighten via scolding warning, etc. without educating. This might be termed an authoritarian approach. Quick and dirty. The good teacher presents as clearly and reasonably as possible and invites an exchange in which productive learning takes place. Unfortunately forum dynamics do not often encourage or sustain this type of dialogue.

It would be great to see the OP restore his post, with added commentary about his inner experience and the riskier-than-normal nature of the descent. I see no value in continuing to scold, or discuss prior scolding. Some have scolded the OP, and scolders have scolded the original scolders, etc. Is there any value to more of that? There may be value in discussing the value of scolding, but perhaps those interested in that topic could start a new thread.

hank

[kiwi_outdoors]

this thread is a good forum to air out a few things - the OP came close to being a death statistic. canyoneering is lethal from time to time, and we need to keep that in mind. For instance , the first and last wet canyons I and my wife did have both killed people.

[qedcook]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but didn't Slot Machine post about accidentally going down Messin' Around instead of Foolin' Around last year, and no one got mad at him? Double standard much???

[hesse15]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but didn't Slot Machine post about accidentally going down Messin' Around instead of Foolin' Around last year, and no one got mad at him? Double standard much???
one thing is doing mistakes and we all do them .. one think is brag about doing mistakes and be arrogant about it like is the new cool way to do canyons!!!! that is what is criticised here for whom still miss the point not the mistakes!!!!

Sent from my Venue 7 3730 using Tapatalk

[twotimer]

Wow, talk about an epic reaction to a first post! Sorry to say it gentlemen, but it seems to me like there's some pent up something goin' on...like you all (or most, at least) have been hanging out here a bit too much.

I can only imagine that Court is thinking as he's looking in on the mayhem created...not by him, really...and thinking "What the heck is this?" I know I am!

What is all this talk about learning something from his post? He got lost, bailed down some chute, got lucky with the raps and walked out of there. Tom calls him an idiot, he's ashamed and deletes his post, a friend of his comes in to say that he just wants his rope back and (I suppose) like somebody's going to go pluck it out for him.

Y'know, on second though, it does have a bit of a stinky smell to it, right? Ha! let's see if this thing gets pushed to 8 pages! Hey Court, I hope you get your rope back.

[Scott P]

One subtext of this thread: how best to alert/ward and/or educate the unwary when sketchy stuff pops up that might be emulated.

Two basic approaches: bad teacher / good teacher. The bad teacher attempts to frighten via scolding warning, etc. without educating. This might be termed an authoritarian approach. Quick and dirty. The good teacher presents as clearly and reasonably as possible and invites an exchange in which productive learning takes place. Unfortunately forum dynamics do not often encourage or sustain this type of dialogue.

It would be great to see the OP restore his post, with added commentary about his inner experience and the riskier-than-normal nature of the descent. I see no value in continuing to scold, or discuss prior scolding. Some have scolded the OP, and scolders have scolded the original scolders, etc. Is there any value to more of that? There may be value in discussing the value of scolding, but perhaps those interested in that topic could start a new thread.

hank

The only thing I wanted to say is that I agree with the above.

[ratagonia]

I"think everybody does mistakes but there are 3 kind of people
1 person die
2 person survive and learn and does not repeat same mistakes
3 person survive believe is a super smart ass and the weekend after take bunch of newbies to experience the same trill.


lately I am encountering lot of #3 and usually are the more sensitive to any form of criticism. but not only they are dangerous for themselves but usually tend to take newbies desperate to go canyoneering and putting their lives at risk. I think that is why Tom posted that way. those people are dangerous and need to be known.

Sent from my Venue 7 3730 using Tapatalk

Hesse has proposed a new "Dumbass Scale".

Type 1 Dumbass

Type 2 Dumbass

Type 3 Dumbass being the ones you really otta keep your eye out for.

T

[ratagonia]

For the record I have nothing against soloing, I have done it countless times. When going solo you just have to understand the risks are much higher and proceed accordingly. Solo is the same old game but with different rules and penalties.

This was not your troll, Shane?

It has all your usual fingerprints: on the edge of plausibility, pulling in recent themes, and getting an asshat reaction from me. Sockpuppets, etc. Oh, and you are going to deny it, thus providing proof for all good conspiracy theorists...

Perhaps you are also the "friend" who "confirms" the reliability of the OP.

The same post was quickly deleted on the Kollective. Presumably because the OP would be IP'd and called out pretty quick.

Jus' Sayin'...

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Ha. Both obvious (and apparently successful) trolling. My money's on Tom.

Quick hike up and down Twin Brothers, plus Mtn of the Sun and Deertrap S Buttress prior to Hidden? Yeah... I can think of few people capable of that kind of day. Much less with the route familiarity to complete it in said day. Actually, sounds kind of fun.

PS he would've had to ascend the 6 mm to get out of Spry on the way back from TB. He would've had to downclimb Twin Brothers without a rap. Doable, but very sketchy.

Coming from Deertrap, the navigation difference between Grotto and Hidden Canyon is VERY conspicuous. Either a clear indication that this is a fabrication, OR a clear indication that the OP is rather challenged in many ways.

Tom

[harness man]

Hi Rob L and Folks,
Replies concerning the tone of my posts:
Points well taken!
Most of us, including some of the best canyoneers I know have made foolish mistakes (usually during the first season or two), survived,
learned from them, and moved on.
What troubles me most about the original post is the use of 6mm cord.
So lets talk about it.
Alpha Steve, do you mind sharing what brand and model of 6mm rope you have been using?
And what device you are using to rappel with?
Todd

[ratagonia]

Having not been to Grotto Canyon, is the story even possible? Could you get to within a few feet of the bottom of the last drop with a single 60m rope?

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-canyoneering-conspicuous-canyon-june-21-2014/

There are several 200 foot drops in the canyon. Intermediate anchors may be possible on these raps.

The mid-canyon long rap of 260 feet CAN be done off to the side using shorter raps, as Mr. Thompson and Crew did on their debacle.

The FINAL rappel I carefully measured at 250 feet. However, that is to standable flat ground. The bottom of the rap is sloped and slippery with goo, so, maybe... but ... hard to believe.

I'm still in the troll camp. Ties together too many themes to not... most likely.

Tom

[Court]

I figure I might as well reply to what has been said.

I do not like contention and find that it is often far better to avoid it all together than waste my time caring about others calling me names. Hence the silence and deletion.

First off, thanks to all who are genuine in their concern and offered kind words. I agree with most of what has been said.

My main mistake was spending hours beforehand pouring over beta for the Twin Brothers/MOS/DeerTrap linkup and not much effort was put into researching the approach to Hidden. The scrambling was what I thought would be the crux of the day and the canyon would be a pleasant and quick descent. I had pictures on my phone of maps but what really got me was the trail on my map and the actual trail were different. I guess they re-did the trails up there sometime in the last 5 years or something.

I stood at the head of the correct canyon and it was a big drop with not even a footprint anywhere nearby which made me think I was at the wrong canyon. All I knew about Hidden was that there was no rap longer than 100' and lots of fun downclimbing. I thought that the start would be obvious and easy to locate. My mistake that I recognize.

As I walked over to Grotto canyon it was a much more mellow start which seemed right and there were anchors and many rappels that were exactly 100'. Seemed right to me. I didn't recognize my blunder until I got towards the end and could see the angels landing trail across the canyon.

I only came up short on the first rap in the big exit sequence by 10' and was able to swing over to a tree and set up another rappel. No idea where Tom did a 200' rap in the middle of the canyon...maybe down a bunch of low angle stuff that was easily downclimbed...

Then obviously I came up short on the last rap. I set up a single line rappel of 200' with a 4'' diameter log tied to the end of the rope as a safety. When I started over the edge I could see that it was short but not sure how short. Didn't look like much.

Timeout.

I could wait all night for SAR to come get me or I could take a chance and WORST CASE SCENARIO hang on the end of my rope waiting for SAR to come. I really didn't want to wait all night and I didn't want to put out the SAR if I didn't have to. So I chose to chance it and rap down. As I got closer I could see that it was close enough that I could drop off and not die so thats what I did. 10-15' is my guess.

My purpose of the post was to
1. inform people to not make the same mistake when trying to do Hidden from the top. Looks like others have blundered in the same way. If I had stumbled upon their reports in my planning I surely would not have made the same mistake.
2. Hook someone up with a rope or potentially get it back.

As for rappeling on a 6mm. It was actually a 5mm. MBS-5000 lbs. The brand is New England. I know it is obviously risky as far as abrasions and potentially cutting your rope but tensile strength is not an issue. People regularly use 5mm cord to rappel. Maybe not in canyons but in mountaineering and skiing it is very common. I've rapped on this rope dozens of times with no issues or damage. If I am just doing a normal canyon with a group I would bring a thicker rope. But when I have to carry the rope all by myself and the canyon isn't the main objective of the day I opt for the 'light and fast' mentality and bring the skinny line.

I don't really see where I almost killed myself but I do see what went wrong and I internalized those things and will incorporate them into future outings.

I do not enjoy taking beginners out and teaching them so no need to worry about me teaching risky practices.

I know that I am in no way immune to risks and accident. But know that I understand what I am doing and I accept the inherent risks.

Sorry to Purcell. Didn't mean to implicate you. Thanks for writing the newer edition of your book. It fuels a lot of my Zion adventures.

Not sure why people get so upset. Maybe because their income depends on this sport...

If people feel the need to call names, swear, and criticize, then I won't be a part of the conversation.

[harness man]

Hi Court
Thank you for rejoining the thread and sharing technical details.
Maxim sells this cord for slinging chocks or for use as a climbing cordalette.
It is not intended to rappel on.
New England Maxim cord 5mm loses about half of its theoretical 5,000 lb. breaking strength after a (rather small) number of flex cycles that one would generate while rappelling.
Once you tie a knot in it, you lose another 40%.
Now you are down to 1500 lbs., without taking abrasion into account (I have not yet descended a Zion canyon that did not have abrasion).
1500 lbs (about the tensile for 3 strands of paracord) is a terribly slim margin for rappelling.
That is why, after so many tragic canyoneering deaths last year, I have reacted so strongly to your post.
It troubles me very much that any one would 'promote by example' what I perceive to be a very dangerous practice that is not sanctioned by the manufacturer.
Best
Todd

[jman]

Random Q for Court:

Are you the same Cort P and Alphasteve that have completed the W.U.R.L. (Wasatch Ultimate Ridge Linkup), by chance??

[TommyBoy]

Court thanks for coming back and for the extra detail on thoughts, planning, ect... For future reference (and hopefully it won't be needed), but if you make a mistake and post about it, the finger waggers around here are usually nicer if you put in some detail about your thoughts and a self critique of where you went wrong, or ask for a critique if you're not sure. It lets us know that you have thought about it and you do understand that you messed up and you're trying to learn. I think most people that come here are of that mindset already, but I try not to assume someone online is smarter than they are so that there are no tragedies of miscommunication.

[hesse15]

I figure I might as well reply to what has been said.

I do not like contention and find that it is often far better to avoid it all together than waste my time caring about others calling me names. Hence the silence and deletion.

First off, thanks to all who are genuine in their concern and offered kind words. I agree with most of what has been said.

My main mistake was spending hours beforehand pouring over beta for the Twin Brothers/MOS/DeerTrap linkup and not much effort was put into researching the approach to Hidden. The scrambling was what I thought would be the crux of the day and the canyon would be a pleasant and quick descent. I had pictures on my phone of maps but what really got me was the trail on my map and the actual trail were different. I guess they re-did the trails up there sometime in the last 5 years or something.

I stood at the head of the correct canyon and it was a big drop with not even a footprint anywhere nearby which made me think I was at the wrong canyon. All I knew about Hidden was that there was no rap longer than 100' and lots of fun downclimbing. I thought that the start would be obvious and easy to locate. My mistake that I recognize.

As I walked over to Grotto canyon it was a much more mellow start which seemed right and there were anchors and many rappels that were exactly 100'. Seemed right to me. I didn't recognize my blunder until I got towards the end and could see the angels landing trail across the canyon.

I only came up short on the first rap in the big exit sequence by 10' and was able to swing over to a tree and set up another rappel. No idea where Tom did a 200' rap in the middle of the canyon...maybe down a bunch of low angle stuff that was easily downclimbed...

Then obviously I came up short on the last rap. I set up a single line rappel of 200' with a 4'' diameter log tied to the end of the rope as a safety. When I started over the edge I could see that it was short but not sure how short. Didn't look like much.

Timeout.

I could wait all night for SAR to come get me or I could take a chance and WORST CASE SCENARIO hang on the end of my rope waiting for SAR to come. I really didn't want to wait all night and I didn't want to put out the SAR if I didn't have to. So I chose to chance it and rap down. As I got closer I could see that it was close enough that I could drop off and not die so thats what I did. 10-15' is my guess.

My purpose of the post was to
1. inform people to not make the same mistake when trying to do Hidden from the top. Looks like others have blundered in the same way. If I had stumbled upon their reports in my planning I surely would not have made the same mistake.
2. Hook someone up with a rope or potentially get it back.

As for rappeling on a 6mm. It was actually a 5mm. MBS-5000 lbs. The brand is New England. I know it is obviously risky as far as abrasions and potentially cutting your rope but tensile strength is not an issue. People regularly use 5mm cord to rappel. Maybe not in canyons but in mountaineering and skiing it is very common. I've rapped on this rope dozens of times with no issues or damage. If I am just doing a normal canyon with a group I would bring a thicker rope. But when I have to carry the rope all by myself and the canyon isn't the main objective of the day I opt for the 'light and fast' mentality and bring the skinny line.

I don't really see where I almost killed myself but I do see what went wrong and I internalized those things and will incorporate them into future outings.

I do not enjoy taking beginners out and teaching them so no need to worry about me teaching risky practices.

I know that I am in no way immune to risks and accident. But know that I understand what I am doing and I accept the inherent risks.

Sorry to Purcell. Didn't mean to implicate you. Thanks for writing the newer edition of your book. It fuels a lot of my Zion adventures.

Not sure why people get so upset. Maybe because their income depends on this sport...

If people feel the need to call names, swear, and criticize, then I won't be a part of the conversation.
OK if you do not take beginners, kids or dogs you are an adult so is less concern to me what you do. Sorry for jumping on your case but I was worried .

Sent from my LENNY using Tapatalk

[hesse15]

Hesse has proposed a new "Dumbass Scale".

Type 1 Dumbass

Type 2 Dumbass

Type 3 Dumbass being the ones you really otta keep your eye out for.

T
No only 3 is dumbass the other 1 and 2 are just humans

Sent from my LENNY using Tapatalk

[Court]

Yes Jman.

Thanks Todd. That is very insightful info about rope strength.

[twotimer]

Court...your OP had just a bit of wham bam to it, that's why some (me too...kinda) thought it might not be real. Also, I've been around here for quite a while and knew that at least Tom would soon show up foaming at the mouth, something I mentioned earlier was nearly all of us have had him go sideways for one reason or another. Don't let it bother ya, it's typical.

With that said, that was one heck of an entrance!

Look, virtually everyone who doubted you or got snarky came it with the likes on your post...an apology of sorts. Don't hold them to task for it...people around here are pretty cool...some are just a bit, touchy.

Also, like I said earlier, I would have done the exact same thing you did. Screw waiting for rescue. Exhaust all options first...I think you did a fine job of getting yourself out of there. I say you get kudos for the balls factor alone. Glad you came back in and detailed everyone out.

[kiwi_outdoors]

Good first post - brutally honest
Good 2nd post - same honesty!

Welcome aboard.

[ratagonia]

Court...your OP had just a bit of wham bam to it, that's why some (me too...kinda) thought it might not be real. Also, I've been around here for quite a while and knew that at least Tom would soon show up foaming at the mouth, something I mentioned earlier was nearly all of us have had him go sideways for one reason or another. Don't let it bother ya, it's typical.


I am worse when heading out of town, which I was. Not quite an apology yet, though. I have an email into New England Rope regarding the 5mm Tech Cord - will let you know if they respond.

Tom

[whansen]

Random Q for Court:

Are you the same Cort P and Alphasteve that have completed the W.U.R.L. (Wasatch Ultimate Ridge Linkup), by chance?? Court

I read your partners TR of the W.U.R.L. Great job, Way to do something that seems total impossible for most humans.
Even though you made a nav error in your canyon trip. You diffently have shown you have strong navigation abilities to be able to after no sleep take a solo lead on the final section of the WURL.
Wow what an accomplishment!
Be safe out there. I still don't think id ever rap on my 6mm pull cord in less i had gotten my only rappel rope stuck and it was my only way out.
Sorry I misjudged you after reading the TR you posted first and then deleted.

[jman]

Court

I read your partners TR of the W.U.R.L. Great job, Way to do something that seems total impossible for most humans.
Even though you made a nav error in your canyon trip. You diffently have shown you have strong navigation abilities to be able to after no sleep take a solo lead on the final section of the WURL.
Wow what an accomplishment!
Be safe out there. I still don't think id ever rap on my 6mm pull cord in less i had gotten my only rappel rope stuck and it was my only way out.
Sorry I misjudged you after reading the TR you posted first and then deleted.

That's what I was thinking too. I agree though, 6mm is tiny even for a CRITTR.

When I read Alphasteves username here, I was thinking where have I seen that username...then it clicked than I did a quick search and later pulled up a Cort P on a WURL report and figured it was these two same guys.

On a side note - A friend and I are planning to do the WURL this fall for the first time and so I read every detail and every account that I can find about it. It looks exhausting! The longest hike I have been on in one day is 28 miles. So just another 8 miles and I'll be good.

We are mostly ready and have hiked probably half of these summits, but after this summer we will have all the summits dialed in. I think we are going to do the Bells Canyon exit as I know that one the best. (If anyone hasn't hiked up Bells Canyon to the upper Reservoir they are missing out on probably a top 5 'best' of salt lake IMO).

[Court]

Court

I read your partners TR of the W.U.R.L. Great job, Way to do something that seems total impossible for most humans.
Even though you made a nav error in your canyon trip. You diffently have shown you have strong navigation abilities to be able to after no sleep take a solo lead on the final section of the WURL.
Wow what an accomplishment!
Be safe out there. I still don't think id ever rap on my 6mm pull cord in less i had gotten my only rappel rope stuck and it was my only way out.
Sorry I misjudged you after reading the TR you posted first and then deleted.

Thanks whansen.

I'm definitely rethinking the logic of using the skinny rope. Thanks for the feedback.

Good luck on the wurl Jman.

[alphasteve42]

jman and whansen. Court and our friend Spence did the entire WURL a la Jared Campbell original route. (all 27 summits) The hosers chose to do it the week after the Wasatch100, which I had participated in, so my legs were only up for the last quarter to see em to the end. On the last peak (Lone Peak) Court was so strong he was beating me (with fresher legs) up the climb. I am fixing to tick the whole thing off this August or September so lets high five on a summit and tell me where you stashed your water and gels so I can raid em. Court the website for the Tech-Cord says emergency rappelling. I feel safe on the short-non-overhung stuff. Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom and censures. I met a guy climbing in Ogden Canyon tonight who said his friend accidentally went down Grotto and had to rescued due to short ropes.

[Court]

Went up to retrieve my rope today and it looks like someone beat me to the punch...at least there's no trash hanging on the wall right?

[Taylor]

I think it was removed soon after your descent. We were there the week after you posted the story and I couldn't find it or see it from the bottom. That was the same weekend I grabbed Glenn's rope which was left where Gifford drains into Pine Creek.

[hank moon]

i bet it's still there. prolly got blow'd around or something.