UDOT Wizardry - ThrU Turns

[Sombeech]

What do you guys think about the new design they are trying at the busy intersections? First it was the inside Left turning lanes, now it's the ThrU Turn.

Maybe Scott P can weigh in on this if he's seen any success with these designs in Colorado, but personally I think they are a mess.

In Layton for example, they've got these 2 intersections on each side of the freeway exit. I was going straight and was next to an older fella that had his Left signal on, and I was just patiently waiting for him to stop in the lane instead of going straight, expecting to make an easy Left turn in the mid afternoon with little traffic. So he stops, completely confused at the signs telling him to go straight to turn left.

Look at the explanation to these intersections. We'll all have to watch a quick tutorial from our smart phones while driving so we know what to do. Then maybe we can text our comments and Like and Share our feelings as we experience the new method of making a Left Turn.

Instead of waiting at 1 light to turn left, now you'll wait through 3 of them.

What do you think, will this help? Personally, on the second video, most of the traffic gets off of the freeway going northbound and a lot of them need to cut across lanes to turn left into the mall. This new technique does nothing to solve that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgL47KAkXPI

These two intersections are within sight of each other


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8DuAY0G2SA

[rockgremlin]

What a disaster! The real tragedy is that regardless of if the new system works better, the road design is already built. There's no going back now. The narrator pointed out that in 25 years, the commuter will spend less time driving...

...except it's going to take 25 years for everyone to learn how to properly navigate this new system.

Looks incredibly stupid. I can't fathom how on earth it would ever save anyone any time when you have to drive an extra city block out of your way in the wrong direction to get where you're going.

[Scott P]

Maybe @Scott P (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=213) can weigh in on this if he's seen any success with these designs in Colorado, but personally I think they are a mess.

Actually, I´ve only worked on rural highways. The county I live in is twice the size of Delaware , but outside a few in downtown Craig, there aren´t even any stoplights in the county. I don,t have to (or get to) deal with things such as the above.

I do believe that the above designs are meant to reduce "collision points". For example, round-abouts have far less collision points than a four way interesections, and on paper should be much safer, but in reality it take people a long time to get used to them, so short term they may or may not be any safer,

These are the potential collision points of round-about vs four way interestion (it appears to be the same concept for the U-Turns above). On paper, the roundabout should be expected to be four times safer (8 vs. 32 collision points). Of course if people aren´t used to them and get confused, that would obviously skew the statistics.

http://pix-media.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/1031/ScreenShot2015-09-17at5.07.05PM.png

[Scott P]

I can't fathom how on earth it would ever save anyone any time when you have to drive an extra city block out of your way in the wrong direction to get where you're going.

If people were used to it and didn´t become confused (which may be asking a lot), then (on paper at least) it should save time. This is because the U-Turn wouldn,t disrupt traffic flow.

[Sombeech]

@accadacca (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=3) and I lived in London for a bit and we can see how roundabouts could and should replace a lot of the 4 way stops, but some people just can't read a sign telling them which direction to yield to. I'm assuming @Rob L (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=17709) would agree.

Check this out, say you're pulling out of Denny's or Garcia's restaurant, or you decided to get super fancy and go to Olive Garden, and you want to turn left coming out of the Layton Hills Mall area. You get in the lane only to realize you can't go that way and you can't back up because there's traffic behind you. This is the path you need to go so you can correct your simple mistake of assuming this was a non screwed up intersection.

You have to go through 9 lights, and drive @ 1 mile just to make up for the left turn. This is insane once I started playing it out on the map.

82663

[Absolute Gravity]

You have to go through 9 lights, and drive @ 1 mile just to make up for the left turn. This is insane once I started playing it out on the map.

82663

I don't see where it is that much extra. If this were a 'normal' system wouldn't the first available intersection to make a u-turn be the one just prior to the 'Finally a U turn!' marker anyway? Even in a normal system u-turns wouldn't be allowed at the off/on ramp intersections, correct? So really you have a couple extra blocks and one extra light, ideally offset by fewer collisions and improved traffic flow through the intersection(s).

[BruteForce]

Total lunacy. This has been in place in Draper for a few years now and its a total nightmare. We always try to find a route that let's us bypass this sheer idiocy!

[Iceaxe]

I live in Draper and I'm not a fan of the ThrU but it is 100 times better than what was there before. The old system was grid lock duriug rush hour. The good thing about being a local is I know the fast ways around the ThrU.

[Sombeech]

I don't see where it is that much extra. If this were a 'normal' system wouldn't the first available intersection to make a u-turn be the one just prior to the 'Finally a U turn!' marker anyway? Even in a normal system u-turns wouldn't be allowed at the off/on ramp intersections, correct? So really you have a couple extra blocks and one extra light, ideally offset by fewer collisions and improved traffic flow through the intersection(s).
No because you can't turn left or U turn at that intersection either. These are 2 of the new style intersections nearly back to back to each other. The place marked for the U turn is the absolute first place you can turn around, or even left for that matter unless you want to get on the freeway.

Granted, once you make the mistake, you'll learn. But for the 1 time visitors, they pull up to the intersection assuming a total idiot didn't design it, and they can't back up or turn around to go the "suggested route". It's much too late for that, they're trapped for a 1 mile ride to drive under the freeway twice.

You can't even go straight through the intersection at my starting point marked there. It's right turn only.

I was discussing this on Facebook and one of my high school friends stayed defending it fiercely. Ok that's his right. I dig into it a little further and he divulged that he is the UDOT project manager for this very intersection. Ha ha what a coincidence. Sorry dude but it sucks, and I assume you got paid enough money to take some negative feedback from time to time.

He also showed me a comparison video showing this new method saves at least 5-8 minutes. Then I watched it more than once and started to see the convenient trickery.

See for yourself if you can find out why it didn't take so long in the After example. There are 2 factors at play, the time of day is rush hour in the Before example, and the After example hits almost every green light. Damn they're good.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lsbbcjukbrxzr9b/AAANU-yFwQe9lpRNet2Cnfoca?dl=0

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[rockgremlin]

I get the impression that these thrU turns are best case scenarios based in computer models and simulations. I'm an engineer and I work and live in computer models, and I'm here to tell ya...computer models hardly ever play out the way you originally intended. In real life there are always unforseen contingencies that play into the equation that screw things up. I don't think even the most optimistic scenario could save the commuter the amount of time that UDOT is claiming.

I smell bull$hite...and I believe your high school buddy is defending his design so fiercely because he's probably taken a lot of heat for the resulting tidal wave of public frustration and anger. I think it's a poor design that should have been shot down in the early phases of planning. I would say that it looks good in theory, but even that's a stretch.

[mxerhale]

I've referred to this intersection as "the worst intersection in Utah" for at least 12 years, and this new iteration hasn't changed my mind. My first time through the ThruU I was thinking what the Hell? My second and third times I was thinking who the Hell thought this was a good idea as I sat waiting for light after light. Lord help me if I'm on my road bike and have to navigate a left turn here, I think I will stick with my old policy of avoiding this area as much as possible.

[Rob L]

@accadacca (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=3) and I lived in London for a bit and we can see how roundabouts could and should replace a lot of the 4 way stops, but some people just can't read a sign telling them which direction to yield to. I'm assuming @Rob L (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=17709) would agree.<snip>

I do agree, but of course in crowded Europe we have been brought up with roundabouts for many decades.

Slightly off-topic: I'd also suggest that US environmental and traffic authorities get rid of he requirement to stop at 4-way stops in RURAL areas where there is little or no risk of collision. In Europe, we use "Give Way" signs, or give priority to the road with greater traffic. Perhaps we're just too polite !

[Sombeech]

Speaking with my sister who lives in Layton, she says people are just looking for cops and then they turn left there anyways.

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[Iceaxe]

Speaking with my sister who lives in Layton, she says people are just looking for cops and then they turn left there anyways.

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There is a big learning curve with the ThurU. Soon as the everyday commuter gets it dialed in things work pretty well. I'll promise you it will be better than what it replaced.

[rockgremlin]

Speaking with my sister who lives in Layton, she says people are just looking for cops and then they turn left there anyways.

And so...a situation that was intended to minimize accidents is just contributing to them if not out of sheer confusion then from blatant disregard for the rules.

It's a pity they can't put that genie back in the bottle because it sounds like it's a really crappy situation...that at this point can't be reversed.

Is there anywhere else in the nation where this is being implemented successfully, or is this just a bonehead Utah thing?

[jman]

I don't think it's that bad at all. I think most are thinking of themselves when it comes to driving time...

But it clears up the congested intersections (where 4-5 cars will run AFTER the red light) because they are sick of waiting for lights to change.

This development has greatly reduced my irritation of these intersections. It's nice to actually see people being forced to behave decently.

I think it's a great change from how it was. Status quo was awful.


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[Sombeech]

Is there anywhere else in the nation where this is being implemented successfully, or is this just a bonehead Utah thing?

I would assume that if this were gaining applause in other parts of the country, this would be a huge selling point preached by UDOT, saying "See, it works here, people love it". They've got all of the other propaganda videos, so I would assume if this were successful elsewhere, they'd make mention of that too. Maybe they have and I haven't seen it.

I agree that if you live here and know the system, it probably works out smooth. But if you're like the poor older gentleman who was in the next lane from me, naively putting on his left turn signal from the left lane, it's a nightmare. Then it's these noobs who probably stop in the intersection looking for the oncoming traffic to have a gap in it, people honking behind them, causing confusion and delay (in the voice of Sir Topham Hat)

UDOT's defensive position will be to blame the new drivers to the intersection for not reading every single sign leading up to it, but chose to keep their eyes on the road like damned fools.

[Iceaxe]

ThrU's are common in Michigan and several other states have them.

As I said before, Utah's first ThrU was in Draper and after the initial 2 week learning curve traffic was greatly improved. The only time they are a pain in the ass is if you want to make a left turn, everything else is much quicker and faster as you no longer have to deal with and wait for left turn arrows.

I know the folks in Layton are not as bright as those in Draper so you'll probably have a 3 week learning curve.

[Sombeech]

I know the folks in Layton are not as bright as those in Draper so you'll probably have a 3 week learning curve.
:lol8:

I don't even know when the project was completed, hasn't it been a couple of months now? I don't live there, i was just there the other day during lunch and I'm glad that traffic was relatively lite in the middle of the day.

I think it was a month ago that I saw the project first, I was pulling out of the Layton Hills Mall area exactly in my maps shot above, but i was just turning right to get on the freeway so it worked out. But I was thinking, hell I'm glad I didn't have to take a left right here because I would have been screwed. I don't care how many signs they say they've put up on the road as "tutorials", or in other words, things to take your eyes off of the road so you can learn how we've screwed up the upcoming intersection.

Anyways, I assume the majority of drivers don't have a problem with this, as they're driving straight or taking right turns, but those left turn drivers sure do get screwed.

[gholt]

I just avoid that intersection as much as I can.

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[BasinCruiser]

I understand the theory of the value and time saved , and see it in person (perceived???) as well when I drive through it. Before, to get through this intersection, you had to wait through 3 cycles of lights (1 - Cross traffic on my right to go, both straight and teft turn, 2 - Cross traffic to my left to go, both straight and left turn, 3 - Traffic coming head on to go through, both straight and left turn.

Now, I may have to stop at the ThrU before getting to the intersection, and then 1 cycle (both cross traffic to go through at the same time).




The only time they are a pain in the ass is if you want to make a left turn, everything else is much quicker and faster as you no longer have to deal with and wait for left turn arrows.

^^x2

With this new system, it puts the left hand turn waiting time for the N-S traffic solely on the N-S traffic, and vice versa. So, when going N-S, I'm not waiting for E-W left turns.

When going east and west through this area on Hill Field Road, this can make a HUGE difference. As there is 4 stop lights in 1/8 mile through that area, almost all of the time, you have to wait at each of those lights for almost 2 full rounds to get through each light (at least the 1st one), because even though the light you are at may be green, and so may the light in front of you may be green, the next one is red, and so no traffic is moving. Then, while waiting through the next cycles of lights, more traffic is spilling onto Hill Field Road from the freeway exits, and so when your light turns green, your still not moving, because not only has traffic filled up the lanes in front of you, it's over flowing from the turn lane, and traffic can't go anywhere.

It looks like they are redoing the i-15 bridge overpass there, now. I hope they have the intelligence to put in 1 single light system to control the traffic for both I-15 Northbound on/off traffic, and the Southbound on/off traffic that is coordinated (sim to the SLC 6th North I-15 interchange, or the Legacy Pkwy I-15 interchange), so that when you go through that area, you only have 3 lights to go through, instead of 4.

[Sombeech]

I was reading this, people are still frustrated with the thrU turns. With the context of the article and the amount of frustration, I assumed the article was from last year. Then I looked at the date and it was from 2 days ago.

http://www.standard.net/Local/2016/08/28/Layton-ThrU-Turns-frustrate-drivers-but-UDOT-urges-patience


Vic Saunders, spokesman for UDOT (http://www.udot.utah.gov/main/f?p=100:6:0::::V,T:,1), promises traffic numbers for Layton’s ThrU-Turns soon. He says there’s no evidence yet to show the traffic flow has improved in Layton, but that’s only because construction prevents an accurate test of how effective the ThrU-Turns are.

Interesting, they still have NO evidence that it has improved traffic flow. But for those who say traffic is much better, there is this argument too:


“They improve traffic construction by scaring away half of the drivers,” quipped Rob Wardle, who lives in Pleasant View.

I've also heard that you can now make a left turn coming out of the mall, is that correct? If it is, I would like to take credit for it, when I debated this with the UDOT project manager that I went to High School with :lol8:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=82663&d=1452906217

[jman]

I personally LOVE it.

It's one of the few ways to forcefully change driver behavior...and I love it! No more red-light runners or intersection blockers....ugh..........finally.........

So annoying when it's been red for 5 seconds and they still run it and block the other side of traffic so they can't go until the cycle completes...

But the expanded bridge and lanes are great! More room to maneuver around. Plus, with these changes you can really identify who is distracted driving and not paying attention (so I can honk a loud horn at them and embarrass them).

/shudders. Ugh. I hate Layton drivers.


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[tallsteve]

I grew up in Kaysville but, haven't lived there in over 30 years. While I loved living in that area as a kid, about the only thing I miss now is seeing the HAFB fighter jets flying overhead. We had to go to a wedding reception out in west Layton last month and needed to take that exit by the mall. Fortunately, I remembered reading about the thrU turn here in this forum so I kinda had an idea of what to do. My wife was totally confused however and thought I was leading us astray! I got though it all just fine and headed back under the freeway and out west however, I kept thinking, "Why"? How did that goofy intersection just make it easier or faster for me (coming from the south on I-15) to head west out to west Layton? I'm still scratching my head.