Hot for Teacher - Brianne Altice Sentenced

[Slot Machine]

STORY UPDATED 7/9 @ 12:15

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A former Utah high-school teacher who pleaded guilty to having sexual relations with three of her students faces up to 15 years in prison when she is sentenced Thursday.

One of the boys was 16 and two were 17 when Brianne Altice had sex with them, and she continued one of the sexual relationships after she was first arrested two years ago, prosecutors say.

Altice, 36, cried as she pleaded guilty to three counts of forcible sexual abuse in April in return for prosecutors dropping 11 other charges.
She sent a handwritten letter to Judge Thomas Kay asking him to impose a more lenient sentence, saying she is harmless and promising the crimes would not happen again.

Prosecutors say she befriended the boys, allowing them to hang out in her classroom, and the relationships later turned sexual.

One victim testified that the relationship began with kissing between class periods and eventually led to intercourse. Another said he considered her to be his girlfriend during their yearlong sexual relationship.

Defense attorney Ed Brass defended her by saying she was no longer the boys' teacher when the sex occurred. He later said she agreed to the plea deal because she wasn't sure what might happen at trial.

Altice was first arrested in October 2013 after a student reported having a relationship with her. The two other victims later came forward with similar allegations. She was out on bail until allegations emerged earlier this year that she had sex with one of the victims after her arrest. A judge then ordered her to jail.

Parents of two of the boys sued the school district, saying officials knew Altice was behaving inappropriately but didn't do enough to stop her. They said the running joke at the high school was, "Who is Ms. Altice sleeping with now?"

One lawsuit has since been withdrawn after state attorneys contended in court papers that schools aren't responsible for injuries arising from assaults. Another is still pending.

Altice was hired by the Davis County School District in 2004 and had been teaching English at the high school since August 2012. She was fired shortly after the allegations came to light, and her husband also filed for divorce and custody of their child.

80734

80735

[Slot Machine]

This news story is madness! A trial that I can scarcely believe is happening.

A crime is only a crime if there are victims. These boys are not victims, and most men on the planet would laugh at the thought. All 130lbs of my 16-year-old self would have tried to split her like a log, if given the chance.

Is Brianne Altice a good employee? Hell no! She should lose her job, and perhaps her teaching licensce. But prison?? For what?

[Scott P]

This news story is madness! A trial that I can scarcely believe is happening.

A crime is a crime only if there are victims. These boys are not victims, and most men on the planet would laugh at the thought. All 130lbs of my 16-year-old self would have tried to split her like a log, if given the chance.

Is Brianne Altice a good employee? Hell no! She should lose her job, and perhaps her teaching licensce. But prison?? For what?

Out of curiosity, f it were a male teacher and a female student, would your opinion (or that of the general public) be different?

[Slot Machine]

Out of curiosity, if it were a male teacher and a female student, would your opinion (or that of the general public) be different?

Your opinion first, sir. :popcorn:

[Scott P]

My opinion is that teachers (male or female) should not have sex with there minor students. Personally, I don't feel bad if she did some prison sentence because she continued the relationship after she was arrested.

In one way, I think it is more serious for male teachers to have sex with female students, since female students can get pregnant and there are more risk involved.

[Slot Machine]

My opinion is that teachers (male or female) should not have sex with there minor students.

I agree with this from an employer standpoint. The lawsuits/pregnancies/mayhem that would result justifies this stance.


Personally, I don't feel bad if she did some prison sentence because she continued the relationship after she was arrested.

Why? Who is the victim? Seems very harsh for having non-violent, non-coerced sex initiated by the boys. I don't think they consider themselves victims. One of them called her a "teacher with benefits". She shouldn't go to prison for being horny and stupid.


In one way, I think it is more serious for male teachers to have sex with female students, since female students can get pregnant and there are more risk involved.

I *sort of agree with the sentiment of your statement* , because grown ladies seem have a better batting average with birth control than 16 year old girls. (This should be backed by a statistic and not my imagination)


*still formulating my own eloquent double standard* :hmm2:

[Slot Machine]

The comments on KSL are going to make my head explode.

Several people are prattling on about how the boys "knew what they were doing was wrong", like they should go to jail as well. :facepalm1:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35420995&nid=148&title=ex-teacher-accused-of-sex-with-3-students-to-be-sentenced

[Slot Machine]

Wow. Sentencing was just announced. This is where my tax dollars are going??

:facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1:

FARMINGTON — A former Davis High School English teacher who pleaded guilty to sexual activity with three students was ordered Thursday to spend at least two and up to 30 years in the Utah State Prison.

"I don't know if you are taking responsibility. I also wonder if you're in denial of what you've done," 2nd District Judge Thomas Kay told Brianne Land Altice before announcing his sentence.

[Slot Machine]

Out of curiosity, if it were a male teacher and a female student, would your opinion (or that of the general public) be different?

No, my opinion would not be different. I think the age of consent should be 16 regardless of gender. Most folks are ready and willing at that age, unless thoroughly brainwashed and deprived of education first.

I would be grossed out if the roles were switched, but I wouldn't be looking to send him to prison. To me, those seem like medieval laws invented by folks that didn't get laid in high school.

[Iceaxe]

My only thought is dumbass kids... don't they know to keep your mouth shut when you have a good thing going....

[tanya]

No adult should ever sexually touch a child. Period! If they do, then they need to pay for their crime. If a man or woman is having sex with any child under 18 they are sick and need treatment and punishment. I would not want any pervert like this touching my sons or my daughters and influencing them, or any kids for that matter. For a teacher to do this is horrific. Parents trust their kids with these people.

[Sombeech]

http://i.imgur.com/raMVx0S.jpg

[Slot Machine]

No adult should ever sexually touch a child. Period! If they do, then they need to pay for their crime. If a man or woman is having sex with any child under 18 they are sick and need treatment and punishment. I would not want any pervert like this touching my sons or my daughters and influencing them, or any kids for that matter. For a teacher to do this is horrific. Parents trust their kids with these people.
@tanya (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=146) , I agree that this is horrific behavior for a teacher. She should never be allowed to teach again.

But calling these 16/17-year-olds 'children', viewing them as defenseless babies, does not seem reasonable. People that age can, and do, have sex with each other all of the time. It might sound cliche, but 16 is the new 18. I've heard of teens in Salt Lake that throw swingers parties at 16. Sounds crazy, but it's true. I think Utah laws should be updated to reflect current behavioral norms.

All three of these boys put the moves on her and succeeded. Nobody was held against their will. Nobody was coerced. Therefore, I see no crime.

[rockgremlin]

My only thought is dumbass kids... don't they know to keep your mouth shut when you have a good thing going....


EXACTLY!!


Those boys won the lottery -- not only is she hot, but there's bragging rights for life on top of that. To call these boys "victims" is laughable.

[Iceaxe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3CgRH8RlJs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M4_Ommfvv0

[Doomedty]

Coming from personal experience of being a 17 year old (in 2007) having banged a 30 year old....it was awesome. I was not inexperienced or some weak child. I was very willing and you don't even think about the per say "right" or "wrong" of it all because who is to say what is right and wrong. I think it's all in the intentions of the people within the group. Boy or Girl.

People love, people have sex, the law needs to change and people need to get over it. Especially when the punishment is worse then getting caught doing meth. 30 year old dude bangs your daughter because they are in "love", beat the shit out of him and talk to your kids more about love and sex. No need to waist my tax money on your lack of parental teaching.

[Slot Machine]

Great post Ty. :2thumbs:

Some photos from yesterday's sentencing.

80830

80831


Must.


Resist.


Handcuff.


Joke.

[rockgremlin]

Lol. Go ahead with that handcuff joke. Everyone is already thinking it.

[Iceaxe]

I wish more of my handcuff stories involved sex instead of police officers.

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

Most folks are ready and willing at that age, unless thoroughly brainwashed and deprived of education first.

I have to disagree on the "ready" part. No one is "ready" for sex unless they are ready for the consequences both financially and emotionally, i.e. a lifetime of support payments for any resulting babies and 20+ years devoted to the task. I don't know of a single 16 year old that is "ready." Horny ≠ ready.
I have a good friend who was "ready" at that age, and has regretted it ever since. He ended up supporting a child that he barely even knew in a far away place.

[Slot Machine]

*freindly tone*

*looking for an intelligent discussion*


I have to disagree on the "ready" part. No one is "ready" for sex unless they are ready for the consequences both financially and emotionally,

LOL, many of the parents I know will never be ready to support their children financially (think of the parents living in grandma and grandpa's basements). So this is no argument.

And what are the emotional consequences? Broken hearts? How are we defining emotionally ready, so that we can talk about the same thing? And why do we have to be ready emotionally? Because our brains will explode if not prepared? I don't think I'd get anything done if I was emotionally prepared for every event in life. (ex. Who is really ready for their fist kid? Anyone?)


i.e. a lifetime of support payments for any resulting babies and 20+ years devoted to the task.

Being able to pay for support payments is NOT a prerequisite for sex. Pu-lease. :roll: The population of the planet would total 1,000 humans, if true.


I don't know of a single 16 year old that is "ready."

If you visit the lobby of your local Planned Parenthood for an hour, you will meet a dozen of them. And remember, ready in your eyes is not the same as ready in their eyes. Their definition of ready, whatever it may be, is what I'm talking about.

Looking back, I sure was ready at 16! And I've known many many other folks ready at that age. And known many many that were not (to be fair).

Pretending ready and willing 16-year-olds don't exist, is no argument that they don't exist.


I have a good friend who was "ready" at that age, and has regretted it ever since. He ended up supporting a child that he barely even knew in a far away place.

I also have friends like this. It is unfortunate that they couldn't figure out how to use condoms. Very simple devices, those things. And a slew of other options to prevent this situation, but I'd rather not veer too far from the main topic...

a person losing her freedom for having sex with willing participants, that in most corners of the planet, are considered old enough.

*veering the topic back on track* eclipsee_steering

[dougr]

Those saying so what, no victims... do we have any standards in society worth defending? If teachers and minors can get it on, doesn't this just further deconstruct the society we once had built? Seems like there's a misunderstanding by most people now about what the purpose of rules, morality, and law are. They aren't to enable the maximum amount of personal activity, they are to ensure the civilization continues. We aren't on a trajectory of continuing our civilization at this point, and this is another pebble on the scale tilting it that way.

[Iceaxe]

First off... I disagree with attempting to legislate morality.... so after that your entire argument falls apart in my eyes.

[Slot Machine]

Those saying so what, no victims... do we have any standards in society worth defending?

If you would like to start a "standards in society" thread, I'd be happy to play. :mrgreen: However, I'm not going to hijack this thread on your behalf.

Perhaps call the thread, "Old Men Yelling at Kids on Lawns". :lol8:

80836

A question for you, @dougr (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18314) -

If your 16-year-old son came home from school and said, "I've been banging my teacher, Dad, and man, it's been awesome! In fact, I've been over to her house a dozen times over the past three months!".

Then, would you say, "She should be incarcerated for 2-30 years!" ?

If not, then what is your idea of justice in this case?

[BruteForce]

Oh, if only I could have been *victimized* by a school teacher like her back in the day. :naughty:

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

Bottom line: I don't think adults should be having sex with minors, some others here obviously think that is OK. I seem to recall that some here were opposed to having gay scout leaders, for fear that they might have sex with minors. I don't see how the situation in the original post is any different.

Also, I'm a teacher myself, so I know all about the potential for abuse. The first rule of teaching: keep your pants zipped and your hands off the students.
My objection to the teacher in the original post was that she knowingly engaged in a crime, and now wants to cry about being held responsible. Next time I get arrested for a felony, I'll try using the same argument and see where it gets me.

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

*freindly tone*

*looking for an intelligent discussion*

If you visit the lobby of your local Planned Parenthood for an hour, you will meet a dozen of them. And remember, ready in your eyes is not the same as ready in their eyes. Their definition of ready, whatever it may be, is what I'm talking about.

Pretending ready and willing 16-year-olds don't exist, is no argument that they don't exist.


I'm with you on this. When my step daughter turned 16 a few years ago, my wife marched her down to Planned Parenthood and put her on the pill. No questions about are you sexually active or do you want to be. Just assume that she will be and do what we can to keep her safe and un-pregnant.

Hey, we all wanted to be sexually active when we were teens. I just cannot abide by the mixing of adults and minors. As my Dad used to say: "Pick on somebody your own size."

[rockgremlin]

LOL. Thoroughly enjoying this thread. I think the term "YMMV" (your mileage may vary) applies here. I'm positive there exists on this planet many 16 year olds that are ready for sex...probably not the majority, but nevertheless they do exist. Who's to say that the three guys that were involved with Brianne weren't ready? Along that same vein, who's to say Brianne didn't already have contraception installed and therefore knew these kids wouldn't impregnate her, basically releasing them from any possible long term financial responsibility?

There's a LOT of fine print that didn't make it into the full story, which makes it easy to be an armchair judge.

Personally, I disagree with Brianne's actions, but I think 30 years in prison is way too excessive. Hell, there's murderers that get sentences less than that. Are these three horny teenagers getting tried and convicted? And if not, why? They were willing participants in this heinous activity. Just sayin'...

[Slot Machine]

Good post rockgremlin , I agree with most of it except,


Are these three horny teenagers getting tried and convicted? And if not, why? They were willing participants in this heinous activity. Just sayin'...

I've seen several people say similar things on comment boards attached to numerous news articles (like KSL, Tribune and such). I have zero idea what anyone is talking about.

Being a willing participant in ANY of these activities (as a student or as a 16/17 year old) is not a crime. It was a free ride for them, in all aspects (see what I did there?).

Please explain if I am missing something.

[Slot Machine]

Bottom line: I don't think adults should be having sex with minors, some others here obviously think that it is OK for willing 16 and 17 year olds to have sex with whoever they want.

Fixed that for you. Sex with minors implies all minors.


seem to recall that some here were opposed to having gay scout leaders, for fear that they might have sex with minors. I don't see how the situation in the original post is any different.

A hijackerous thought. It is somewhat different, because we are only talking about 16+ year olds. And we are not talking about gay scout leaders.


Also, I'm a teacher myself, so I know all about the potential for abuse. The first rule of teaching: keep your pants zipped and your hands off the students.
My objection to the teacher in the original post was that she knowingly engaged in a crime, and now wants to cry about being held responsible. Next time I get arrested for a felony, I'll try using the same argument and see where it gets me.

I think, perhaps, that you are not separating the crime itself from the abuse of her professional position. A teacher sleeping with an 18 year old student is not a crime. A teacher in Evanston, 60 miles away, sleeping with a 16 year old student is not a crime. A teacher in Utah sleeping with an 17 year old student is committing a crime, but not because she is a teacher, and not because he is a student.

It is difficult to separate out the all of the unsavory behavior in this case, sex with three students, then again when out on bail, while married, etc, etc. But important to do so in order to see the injustice, IMO. Because all participants were willing, sending her to prison seems medieval, not that different than marking her with a scarlet letter.

I DO see things from your perspective as a teacher. And I do find it repugnant, and worthy of losing her license forever, but not felonious. I was surprised to discover there are no laws prohibiting student/teacher relations, after researching this case a bit.


I'm with you on this. When my step daughter turned 16 a few years ago, my wife marched her down to Planned Parenthood and put her on the pill. No questions about are you sexually active or do you want to be. Just assume that she will be and do what we can to keep her safe and un-pregnant.

Hey, we all wanted to be sexually active when we were teens. I just cannot abide by the mixing of 16/17 year olds with older people. As my Dad used to say: "Pick on somebody your own size."

*continued friendly tone*

Fixed that for you, again, so we can continue to talk about the same thing.


BTW, I'm the same size I was when I was 16. Unfortunately. :lol8:

[Slot Machine]

And what kind of BS is a 2-30 year sentence? :roll:
The judge was just fine being a slut-shaming tyrant, but when it came time to picking a number... "Uh, 2-30 years, that seems reasonable." :facepalm1:

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

And what kind of BS is a 2-30 year sentence? :roll:
The judge was just fine being a slut-shaming tyrant, but when it came time to picking a number... "Uh, 2-30 years, that seems reasonable." :facepalm1:

I agree that the upper bound sentence is way out of line.

My views are likely skewed by recent experiences with my 16 year old niece who is really hot and thus attracts lots of guys but who is also desperate to defy her mom. She seems to revel in outrageous behavior. She has a 22 year old "boyfriend" we have been trying to run off without success. He is a bad character (describes himself as a pimp) and it's hard to see her naively tell us she is in love and wants to marry him.

The law has to draw the line somewhere and arguments can be made for lower ages (more freedom, more risk of abuse) and a higher age (less freedom, less risk of abuse). I simply choose the later.

[Slot Machine]

I agree that the upper bound sentence is way out of line.

My views are likely skewed by recent experiences with my 16 year old niece who is really hot and thus attracts lots of guys but who is also desperate to defy her mom. She seems to revel in outrageous behavior. She has a 22 year old "boyfriend" we have been trying to run off without success. He is a bad character (describes himself as a pimp) and it's hard to see her naively tell us she is in love and wants to marry him.

Does she live in Utah? If so, get yourself a lawyer and send that pimp to prison! Problem solved!

:lol8:


The law has to draw the line somewhere and arguments can be made for lower ages (more freedom, more risk of abuse) and a higher age (less freedom, less risk of abuse). I simply choose the later.

Indeed, the line does have to be drawn somewhere.

When I'm trying to draw lines in my own life, I normally try to consult with someone smarter than myself, in order to make the best decision possible.

In this case, I would consult with our cultured and notoriously happy friend, Europe.


The ages of consent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent) vary by jurisdiction across Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe). The ages of consent are currently set between 14 and 18. The vast majority of countries set their ages in the range of 14 to 16; only six countries, Ireland (17), Cyprus (17), Malta (18), Turkey (18) and Vatican (18), do not fit into this pattern.


Vast majority 14-16? Huh. Seems like total mayhem over there. Or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

[rockgremlin]

Vast majority 14-16? Huh. Seems like total mayhem over there. Or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe


Geez, first Greece's economy $hits the bed and now this? What's next?

[tanya]

According to the news: A mom of one of Brianne’s victims wasn’t sympathetic to whatever personal turmoil led her to abuse her son. She told the court that he was irretrievably damaged psychologically and emotionally by the sexual relationship, and testified that Altice’s own children are also victims.


Brianne initially faced (http://www.inquisitr.com/1677059/utah-teacher-rape-brianne-land-altice-charged-on-five-counts-of-rape-after-students-come-forward/) 14 felonies, including rape, but was sentenced with up to 30 years in prison for three felony counts of forcible sexual abuse (http://www.inquisitr.com/2036708/former-utah-teacher-pleads-guilty-to-having-sex-with-3-students/).





You have to understand that any woman who is having sex with teens is not mentally stable, but it's not just sex that's the problem. This mentally disturbed woman was in a position to manipulate these kids and change their way of being forever. A teen, boy or girl, needs to go through the process of acceptance from someone their age. It's mentally healthy. Having a teacher who these kids should be looking up to and respecting, luring them into sexual situations is damaging.

Lot's of teen girls are looking for men in their 40's. Do you know why? How would you feel if your daughter was doing it? Girls do this because they are mentally incapable of having a relationship with someone of their own age and other reasons that are more complex and very sad. They are not mentally healthy. A 16 year old girl who would let a man pick her up and then have sex with her is mentally disturbed.

The boys are no different, but they are in a position where certain sects of the population think it's okay to jump anything with a skirt as soon as they are able, but that does not bring forth the type of man we admire in our society. What does, is if they lust for a teacher, which is natural, and then they are shot down immediately and forced to respect her. This helps to develop a healthy brain that fits in with the better parts of our society.

[Slot Machine]

Great post Tanya
.
*friendly tone* *happy you are joining the discussion*



According to the news: A mom of one of Brianne’s victims wasn’t sympathetic to whatever personal turmoil led her to abuse her son. She told the court that he was irretrievably damaged psychologically and emotionally by the sexual relationship, and testified that Altice’s own children are also victims.


If my mommy testified against all the girls playing kissy-face with me when I was 16, each of them would have met their fate in the gas chamber. I’m unsure why his mommy’s testimony is admissible in court.



Brianne initially faced 14 felonies, including rape, but was sentenced with up to 30 years in prison for three felony counts of forcible sexual abuse.


Charging her with 14 felonies was a bully tactic used by the prosecution to force a plea deal. If I was her, I would have pleaded innocent to all counts and forced to whole thing to a trail. I think it would have been tough to convict her if a jury would have heard the testimonies of the boys. From what I’ve read, it sounded (sincerely) like all of them had a great time, and that none of them were victims.



You have to understand that any woman who is having sex with teens is not mentally stable, but it's not just sex that's the problem.


I’ve known many mentally unstable women, but consider none of their behavior to be felonious. I see several problems with Altice's behavior (probably overlapping with the problems you see), but deem none of those behaviors worthy of prison time.



This mentally disturbed woman was in a position to manipulate these kids and change their way of being forever.


Mentally unstable women DO have a knack for changing ‘your way of being’ forever. Annoying as it may be, it is not a worthy of incarceration.



A teen, boy or girl, needs to go through the process of acceptance from someone their age. It's mentally healthy. Having a teacher who these kids should be looking up to and respecting, luring them into sexual situations is damaging.


I’m not convinced the process of acceptance is a ‘need’. Probably a healthy thing to do, but not a need.

If I was one of those boys, my desire to cash in on a once-in-a-lifetime-hot-teacher-Penthouse-moment would surpass my desire to consume food.

Could you paint a clearer picture as to how these 16/17 year old boys were damaged? I’m not seeing it, especially after reading their testimonies. Could you find a single quote that shows that these boys are now damaged? (A quote not from one of their mommies.)



Lot's of teen girls are looking for men in their 40's. Do you know why?


Why are we suddenly talking about teen girls? Pretty sure we should treat boys/girls the same in this situation.


To answer your question, because older guys have game. Houses, cars and money. The dude sitting next to them in math class can’t take them to Cancun for spring break. Easiest question I’ve ever answered.



How would you feel if your daughter was doing it?


Grooooossssssed out! But I would not be looking to take anyone’s freedom.


I remember how capabable and interested all boys and girls were when I was 16. Talking to my brother-in-law Tyler @Doomedty (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=24063) opened my eyes even more. He was on a mission to nail every daughter/mom/sister/grandmother/teacher/crossing guard/principal’s wife at that age, and was remarkably successful.


Was he a victim at that age? Certainly not. I wouldn’t consider a similarly-wired daughter to be a victim either (if I had a daughter).



Girls do this because they are mentally incapable of having a relationship with someone of their own age and other reasons that are more complex and very sad. They are not mentally healthy. A 16 year old girl who would let a man pick her up and then have sex with her is mentally disturbed.


I disagree. Because the concept is unusual and uncomfortable to you or I does not qualify her (or him) as mentally disturbed.



The boys are no different, but they are in a position where certain sects of the population think it's okay to jump anything with a skirt as soon as they are able, but that does not bring forth the type of man we admire in our society. What does, is if they lust for a teacher, which is natural, and then they are shot down immediately and forced to respect her. This helps to develop a healthy brain that fits in with the better parts of our society.


Well put Tanya, and as a matter of taste I agree. But diverting from this recipe, when all parties are willing, is not a reason to take another person’s freedom, wouldn’t you say?

[Iceaxe]

When I was sixteen I would have banged the hell out of Altice every chance I got. I would have bragged about it to my friends. My dad would have given me a high five, my mom would have given me some meaningless talk about how I was going to hell. But by all accounts no crime would have been committed.

/DISCUSSION

[Slot Machine]

I dug up a transcript from one of the court hearings. The conversation is an excerpt between the youngest victim, John Conner, 16 years old, and Judge Thomas Kay.

Judge: “Mr. Conner, is it true that you had sexual relations with Ms. Altice?”

Mr. Conner: “Yes, Your Honor, this is true.”

Judge: “Mr. Conner, when you had sexual relations with Ms. Altice, did she get on top of you, or did you get on top of her?”

Mr. Conner: “I got on her, Your Honor.”

Judge: “Mr. Conner, when you got on her, did you stay on her?”

Mr. Conner: “Your Honor, once I got on her, I stayed on her. Scout’s honor.”

Judge: “Did you feel like a victim afterwards, Mr. Conner?”

Mr. Conner: “No, Your Honor. Getting on her felt like an honor.”
___________

These are not the words of a victim! Nobody should go to prison for a victimless crime!

Below is a photograph of the convicted felon predator Brianne Altice.
80868

And an artist’s depiction of her bedroom once she gets released from prison.
80869

[rockgremlin]

I agree with the above two posts. No way in hell these horned up boys were victims in any way. If anything their status around campus just got a permanent boost to stardom amongst their friends and peers. You can probably count with two hands the number of high fives each of these three kids get every day. Granted, in our society this behavior is frowned upon, but propriety is rarely worthy of admiration in the halls of the average high school.

[dougr]

I agree with the above two posts. No way in hell these horned up boys were victims in any way. If anything their status around campus just got a permanent boost to stardom amongst their friends and peers. You can probably count with two hands the number of high fives each of these three kids get every day. Granted, in our society this behavior is frowned upon, but propriety is rarely worthy of admiration in the halls of the average high school.

So the standards of society are based on high fives in HS? That's exactly wrong. Just a sickening comment that can't be serious.

You don't get the big picture. The guys don't know they're victims. But what is raising kids about, if not for guiding them when they don't know what's best? They now are very likely permanently scarred in terms of what to expect from relationships, boundaries between adults and children, and the standards of civilized society.

I would not want some of the values expressed in this thread anywhere near my kids. Such utter lack of wisdom and decency in many of the comments.

edit: Let me add this. I was a high school math teacher for 5 years. The thought of violating the deep trust I had between my kids and their parents is unthinkable. Have you considered that? Parents have a right to raise their kids as they wish and exposed to what they wish.

I worked hard at having fun with my students in the classroom while maintaining proper respect for me, the school, and the subject. I worked hard to do my (very) small part in producing decent citizens. Yet I'm a chump, kids who live cleanly are chumps, and criminals like her are to be laughed off and tacitly admired. I'm disappointed in so much in here. I would expect these comments in male teen banter, but not here.

[Sombeech]

The only victims here are the parents of the boys.

I've got 8 years experience working in a dozen schools, so I feel I've also got a little insight. Whether it should be labeled a crime or not, it's definitely clear that the teacher shouldn't have relations with the student, even if they've turned 18 years of age and are still in school.

[Iceaxe]

This thread makes it easy to see which guys were knocking off a piece of ass in high school and which guys were wishing they could.

Now the party was jumpin
And the girls were fine, with the lipstick summer glaze
I got so many women comin' after me
I put some pussy on layaway

[dougr]

Tanya> The boys are no different, but they are in a position where certain sects of the population think it's okay to jump anything with a skirt as soon as they are able, but that does not bring forth the type of man we admire in our society

Well put Tanya, and as a matter of taste I agree. But diverting from this recipe, when all parties are willing, is not a reason to take another person’s freedom, wouldn’t you say?

This is what I'd say to you, Slot. I guarantee I'm as libertarian as you are and I'd bet even more so. But making a civilization takes hard work, high standards, expectations, and a decent populace. When raising kids, strong boundaries are necessary so they can become adults capable of governing themselves.

It might boil down to that. My order: 1. The continuance of civilized, decent society. 2. Maximum freedom. Your order: 1. Maximum freedom. - Continuance of society not a concern? I suppose like most Libertarians (not a derogatory comment, just an observation as I run with many), you either believe society will continue just fine since maximum freedom makes it axiomatic, or you don't care (ie, I live my life, they live theirs, whatever else happens isn't my concern).

[Brian in SLC]

Spicy topic. I wouldn't expect 16/17 year old males to make good decisions. A 30+ year old adult in a position of authority over those students? Much higher standard.30 years? That seems excessive.

[tanya]

Morality is legislated for children because kids are dumb, and not all parents are great. Someone needs to look out for the kids.

Doug, Brian, Scott P, Bluff and others of the same opinion are spot on! :stud:

A teen girl all dolled up and walking out of the house looking like a hooker doesn't understand she is doing anything wrong most of the time. She's just looking for attention and affection, even if you guys think she looking for money. She is mentally distressed and in need of direction and care.

Not being male, I can't tell you what's going through a boys brains, but I do know that their hormones are raging, and they are highly emotional. Dumb, immature boys brag about their conquests and this teachers actions make them feel their childish actions were okay. This teacher is sick and needs to be kept away from kids. She was educated to never do what she did. She's not just some woman that works at 7/11. She in a position of power to kids and parents need to trust teachers. She knew what could happen to her when she chose to have sex with her students! She made her own choice.


Of course these boys and girls don't think they are victims. They are kids!

Men that still think what this teacher did is not a crime are still thinking like boys and need to step up a bit.

I have changed with age and matured. I was married at the age of 16 already, and to a man 8 years older. I was one of those dumb kids that thought like these boys do. Luckily I raised 3 girls who could kick each others butts if they even remotely did what I was stupid and immature enough to do.

[Iceaxe]

Spicy topic. I wouldn't expect 16/17 year old males to make good decisions.

:lol8:

Gosh... 40 and 50 year old men don't make wise decisions (again.... I know for experience).... if this is about locking up those that make bad decisions about 90% of the population should be behind bars.


http://animatedgif.net/naughty/dancer-sm.gif

[phatch]

I find this kind of gray. The teacher has a position of trust and authority that is problematic for such a relationship. On the other hand, I'm fully convinced this is consensual and not abusive. She shouldn't take such a fall.

http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html is an essay on the topic I find it insightful but doesn't answer the question really.

Adults make bad decisions about sex, drugs and alcohol all the time. Kids do too. The reason adults counsel minors to avoid those three is not that they are evil or immoral as absolutes. It's just so easy to make a bad decision about them no matter who you are or what age you are.

[taatmk]

I have to disagree on the "ready" part. No one is "ready" for sex unless they are ready for the consequences both financially and emotionally, i.e. a lifetime of support payments for any resulting babies and 20+ years devoted to the task. I don't know of a single 16 year old that is "ready." Horny ≠ ready.
I have a good friend who was "ready" at that age, and has regretted it ever since. He ended up supporting a child that he barely even knew in a far away place.
Ditto. There are emotional liabilities when a "minor" becomes involved in a relationship with a person of trust, or in other words, a person by way of their age and maturity has an "advantage" over the minor. This perpetrator had a relationship of power and control. She called the shots. The relationship was not equal. You cannot say with impunity that her relationship with the three victims was on an equal footing. Generally speaking, those under the age of 18 do not understand the responsibility, both emotionally and financially, they would incur by participating in behavior that has the consequence procreating offspring. I work with many adults that do not understand that yet either.

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

Does she live in Utah? If so, get yourself a lawyer and send that pimp to prison! Problem solved!

Are you a f'ing idiot? What would a lawyer do? Sue him? For what?

This is a criminal case. Only the state, not the victim, can prosecute. Already tried, she won't cooperate so the county attorney won't take the case. He's been pimping her out for months at $100 a pop and pocketing the money. Being a naive, guillable 16 year old, she says she wants to marry him because he buys her clothes every once in a while.

This is the kind of sick shit that happens when adults have sex with children. And yes, at 16 she is a child.

I'm done with this thread. There are some seriously twisted minds here.

[Slot Machine]

You don't get the big picture. The guys don't know they're victims.

The bigger picture is that 16-year-olds can play, and that nobody should go to prison over playing with other people that are happy to play.

It would be great to interview these guys and hear what they have to say. But since they are ‘victims of a sex crime’, they are treated as protected witnesses. So, no interviews yet.


They now are very likely permanently scarred in terms of what to expect from relationships, boundaries between adults and children, and the standards of civilized society.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how seriously each of them views sex. Everyone is quite different in this regard.

Doug R might pine over the loss of his love and need to talk to a counselor about it, while Iceaxe might have forgotten her name by the end of the week, but been suspicious that she stole beer out of his fridge, then started looking into ways of getting that beer back, but couldn't remember her name. Aww f*** it... he ain’t getting that beer back!

:cry1:


I would not want some of the values expressed in this thread anywhere near my kids. Such utter lack of wisdom and decency in many of the comments.

I think wisdom and decency can be found in not taking sex so seriously. Or at least, being wise and decent enough to refrain from persecuting others that are nonchalant about it, then sending them to prison.

Or should we go backwards to the days of extreme slut-shaming, and burn her at the stake?


edit: Let me add this. I was a high school math teacher for 5 years. The thought of violating the deep trust I had between my kids and their parents is unthinkable. Have you considered that?

I have considered, and I agree, very poor judgment on her part, and an abuse of her position. I’d hope no teacher in the universe behaves like this, but it is NOT a crime for a teacher specifically to do so.

I'm hoping to separate that thought in the minds of all on this thread, obviously a work in progress…

[Slot Machine]

This is what I'd say to you, Slot. I guarantee I'm as libertarian as you are and I'd bet even more so.

I don't label myself as anything. I'm not even a registered voter. I'm laziness and apathy personified when it comes to the political process.


But making a civilization takes hard work, high standards, expectations, and a decent populace. When raising kids, strong boundaries are necessary so they can become adults capable of governing themselves.

It might boil down to that. My order: 1. The continuance of civilized, decent society. 2. Maximum freedom. Your order: 1. Maximum freedom. - Continuance of society not a concern? I suppose like most Libertarians (not a derogatory comment, just an observation as I run with many), you either believe society will continue just fine since maximum freedom makes it axiomatic, or you don't care (ie, I live my life, they live theirs, whatever else happens isn't my concern).

Instead of hijacking my own thread, and turning this fascinating topic into a political science debate, I'll point out that Europe is doing great with 16,15 and even 14 year old ages of consent. Their society continues just fine (arguably better than ours) within the parameters (16) that I'm suggesting we adopt. Can we agree on that they are doing pretty well?

This age limit would set Brianne Altice free, and make this case look like the farce that it is (like several Europeans are pointing out on the Free Brianne Altice Facebook page).

[Slot Machine]

Are you a f'ing idiot? What would a lawyer do? Sue him? For what?

This is a criminal case. Only the state, not the victim, can prosecute. Already tried, she won't cooperate so the county attorney won't take the case. He's been pimping her out for months at $100 a pop and pocketing the money. Being a naive, guillable 16 year old, she says she wants to marry him because he buys her clothes every once in a while.

This is the kind of sick shit that happens when adults have sex with children. And yes, at 16 she is a child.

I'm done with this thread. There are some seriously twisted minds here.

Whoa!

Let me rephrase, "Get yourself a county attorney and send that pimp to prison! Problem solved!"

Apparently makin' jokes about pimpin' ain't easy! I'll be more laser precise about my pimpin' jokes in the future. :nod:

[tanya]

Around 3 million cases of child abuse, including sexual abuse are reported yearly, and Teachers are in the front-line catching behavior of abused children who are too afraid to tell. Teachers are the people in the position to recognize home abuse and help children of all ages. Turning their back on the kids they teach, and preying on them instead of helping is disgusting to say the least. All school aged children deserve protection from the school staff.

What if these boys were abused at home? What if other kids in that class were and the Teacher ignored the signs?

Teachers need to learn they can't prey on children of any age, and if that takes a stiff sentence for someone who abused that power, then so be it, and if an adult is lusting after children they have no business being in a position where they have power over a kid. Kids are vulnerable and need to be protected from adults.

Day care workers, hospital staff, all types of schools, and other like-organization all need to keep kids safe that are in their care.

[Slot Machine]

I was married at the age of 16 already, and to a man 8 years older.

How can a 16 year old legally wed (or even 15 in Utah), but having sex with a 16 year old be a felony?

Would all of her actions been perfectly legal had she done the drive-thru marriage thing with each of the dudes?

*confused*

If I could go back, I'd give myself the OK for sex at 16, but punch myself into a coma for getting married at 22! What a mistake! :facepalm1:

[Slot Machine]

Around 3 million cases of child abuse, including sexual abuse are reported yearly, and Teachers are in the front-line catching behavior of abused children who are too afraid to tell. Teachers are the people in the position to recognize home abuse and help children of all ages. Turning their back on the kids they teach, and preying on them instead of helping is disgusting to say the least. All school aged children deserve protection from the school staff.

What if these boys were abused at home? What if other kids in that class were and the Teacher ignored the signs?

Teachers need to learn they can't prey on children of any age, and if that takes a stiff sentence for someone who abused that power, then so be it, and if an adult is lusting after children they have no business being in a position where they have power over a kid. Kids are vulnerable and need to be protected from adults.

Day care workers, hospital staff, all types of schools, and other like-organization all need to keep kids safe that are in their care.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on this. I'm certainly not.

I'm surprised there are not laws against teachers having sex with students. But there are no such laws. It seems that she is being prosecuted for laws that some folks perhaps wish existed, which is unfair. Thus part of the outrage.

[rockgremlin]

LOL. this thread is hilarious.

I'd post another reply, but I'm afraid dougy and Tanya would have to spend another hour trying in vain to show the trolls the error of their ways.

Fire away!

[tanya]

I know, but it reminds me why women stay away from Bogley. It just does not bother me because I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I know the trolls are lost causes, :roflol:but once in a while I peek in just to see if someone might surprise me.

[tanya]

80874

[Iceaxe]

I know, but it reminds me why women stay away from Bogley.

Hmmmm.... that reminds me that I should send Brianne Altice an invite to Bogley, it sounds like she would fit in here perfectly.

LMAO

[savanna3313]

Hmmmm.... that reminds me that I should send Brianne Altice an invite to Bogley, it sounds like she would fit in here perfectly.

LMAO

From what I've read here, y'all are too old for her! :haha:

[Iceaxe]

From what I've read here, y'all are too old for her! :haha:
I don't know about that.... I'm pretty versatile on internet forums, I often play a 24 year old lipstick lesbian when I hang out in the girls for girls forum with all the other middle aged men....

LMAO

[Slot Machine]

I was talking to my wife about this and she thinks 16 is too old. She would draw the line at 14. :eek2:

This 18 year old agrees (NSFW due to adult language, the pop-ups embedded at the beginning of the video can be closed):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On0xg6s48_0

[Slot Machine]

@phatch (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=22190)


I find this kind of gray. The teacher has a position of trust and authority that is problematic for such a relationship. On the other hand, I'm fully convinced this is consensual and not abusive. She shouldn't take such a fall.

http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html is an essay on the topic I find it insightful but doesn't answer the question really.

Adults make bad decisions about sex, drugs and alcohol all the time. Kids do too. The reason adults counsel minors to avoid those three is not that they are evil or immoral as absolutes. It's just so easy to make a bad decision about them no matter who you are or what age you are.

Great concise post! Thank you for sharing that essay. An fun read, and a balanced perspective on lies.

Here are some of the lies I've decoded, and the ages I decoded them:

Tooth Fairy is real (7)
Santa is real (8)
Cussing is bad (12)
Sex is bad (16)
I can do anything if I put my mind to it (17)
My Dad is a savvy investor (19)
God is real (20)
Money will make me happy (27)
Marriage will make me happy (28)
Achieving professional success will make me happy (30)
Expensive jewelry is necessary for a happy marriage (31)
Food companies are interested in making healthy food (32)
Having kids will make me happy (33)
I am a savvy investor (35)
Owning my own business will make me happy (36)
Owning a house and yard will make me happy (37)

Unlike the author of the essay, the more I decode, the happier I am. YMMV. :mrgreen:

[savanna3313]

I don't know about that.... I'm pretty versatile on internet forums, I often play a 24 year old lipstick lesbian when I hang out in the girls for girls forum with all the other middle aged men....

LMAO

Ok Caitlyn..........this is way too much fuel for my sarcastic "fire"!! :2thumbs:

:haha:

[taatmk]

While much has been said here in jest, and with tongue in cheek--no pun intended-- :) my life's work has been as a child abuse therapist for over 30 years. While some teen "victims" have indeed not been traumatized nor show any immediate signs of harm by their experience, the vast majority, I can attest, are indeed emotionally scarred and changed for life. It effects ALL of their future interpersonal relationships. That is a sad fact of incredible magnitude. We all experiment with life. Its our nature. But to do so at an unequal footing from someone in a position of trust and authority such as a teacher is immeasurably harmful. Just putting that out there...

[phatch]

Not to discount your post taatmk, but working as an abuse therapist does skew your sample and perspective. Certainly it's risky and harmful, probably most of the time. I think you could find lifelong relationship effects on all who first participated in sex as legal adults as well though.

[rockgremlin]

Hmmmm.... that reminds me that I should send Brianne Altice an invite to Bogley, it sounds like she would fit in here perfectly.

LMAO


Hmmmmmm....What's her bail set at? Probably still cheaper than a mail order bride from the Philippines...

Checking my savings account....

[rockgremlin]

So the standards of society are based on high fives in HS? That's exactly wrong. Just a sickening comment that can't be serious.


Congratulations! You caught on!

I didn't read the rest of your post, sorry. Anything over 3 lines of text makes me sleepy. Try and keep your hate-posts to short, succinct bullet points, please.

[dougr]

Congratulations! You caught on!

I didn't read the rest of your post, sorry. Anything over 3 lines of text makes me sleepy. Try and keep your hate-posts to short, succinct bullet points, please.

So...

1. You're ADHD as well. Great.
2. I'll write down to your level from now on.
3. Hate-post, of course. Shame on me for even alluding to societal standards.

[tanya]

While much has been said here in jest, and with tongue in cheek--no pun intended-- :) my life's work has been as a child abuse therapist for over 30 years. While some teen "victims" have indeed not been traumatized nor show any immediate signs of harm by their experience, the vast majority, I can attest, are indeed emotionally scarred and changed for life. It effects ALL of their future interpersonal relationships. That is a sad fact of incredible magnitude. We all experiment with life. Its our nature. But to do so at an unequal footing from someone in a position of trust and authority such as a teacher is immeasurably harmful. Just putting that out there...

Excellent post!

I might add that those who don't think they are injured might be, but they don't care how it affected them. It takes good parenting to get people to understand what is right and wrong. It's just possible that those who don't see anything wrong have difficulty with that area. I use to.

[taatmk]

Not to discount your post taatmk, but working as an abuse therapist does skew your sample and perspective. Certainly it's risky and harmful, probably most of the time. I think you could find lifelong relationship effects on all who first participated in sex as legal adults as well though.

Not to the extent it does as in an imbalanced relationship. That fact that it effects even ONE child is cause for concern from my perspective. How do we put a value on that? Who are we to judge the impact upon even the one as not being worthy of our attention and take appropriate measures within our abilities to prevent it from occurring to another?

[Slot Machine]

*friendly tone* *stoked that we have a pro chiming in*


... my life's work has been as a child abuse therapist for over 30 years. While some teen "victims" have indeed not been traumatized nor show any immediate signs of harm by their experience, the vast majority, I can attest, are indeed emotionally scarred and changed for life. It effects ALL of their future interpersonal relationships. That is a sad fact of incredible magnitude. We all experiment with life. Its our nature. But to do so at an unequal footing from someone in a position of trust and authority such as a teacher is immeasurably harmful. Just putting that out there...
@taatmk (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=282) , to be clear, we are talking about 16+ year-olds. Not teens of all ages.

Also, there are degrees of unequal footing. The degree of difference in this case has been grossly exaggerated. She did not threaten these boys or hold her position over their heads.

It is just enough of an unequal footing to make the encounters extraordinary for the lucky lottery winners. Like snorting cocaine while flying a rocket ship around the moon while eating sushi and listening to Hendrix.

Err... I mean... so sad and unfair for the helpless traumatized child victims.


Not to the extent it does as in an imbalanced relationship. That fact that it effects even ONE child is cause for concern from my perspective. How do we put a value on that? Who are we to judge the impact upon even the one as not being worthy of our attention and take appropriate measures within our abilities to prevent it from occurring to another?

I agree that we should take measures to prevent people from being victimized. But the prison population in this country is out of control, 5-7 times what I’d deem civilized:

80879

Notice that our very happy friend Sweden is not on the list. So, what do they do with criminals? They rehabilitate them to benefit their society.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/26/prison-sweden-not-punishment-nils-oberg

Which begs the question, how would Sweden sentence Brianne Altice?

80881

I think her sentence would involve mandatory therapy and having her teaching license temporarily suspended. Everyone would win, because she would have a good opportunity to become a more productive member of society, her kids would get to keep their mother (thus increasing their chances of becoming productive members of society), and the taxpayers would win because they wouldn’t have to pay for her prison cell.

The solution shouldn’t be taking her kids taken away, then sentencing her to spend unproductive time in a very expensive prison cell. The only people that win in that scenario are the vindictive parents of the teenage boys.

In your opinion @taatmk (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=282) , what would you deem to be a just punishment for Brianne Altice?