Canyoneering conundrum: to continue with plans or not?

[Raven]

My wife and I live in eastern US, and we are looking forward to our three-day canyoneering trip this week at Zion National Park. We have both canyoneered multiple times before in southern Utah and just wanted to try new canyons to us that seemingly are not too difficult (relative to our experience). So I organized the permits and everything is set to go for our group of three (us two plus a friend, one female and two males). Just recently a situation has arisen and the result is that the friend will not be able to come. I would like your advice on how doable the following itinerary is for two people:

May 20: Drive from Salt Lake City to Zion National Park early in the morning and do Spry Canyon
May 21: Das Boot + Subway
May 22: Behunin

Does anything shoot up red flags? Are these canyons doable for two people who have some experience but have not been in a canyon for two years? Should any canyon on our itinerary be replaced with a different one?

[ratagonia]

My wife and I live in eastern US, and we are looking forward to our three-day canyoneering trip this week at Zion National Park. We have both canyoneered multiple times before in southern Utah and just wanted to try new canyons to us that seemingly are not too difficult (relative to our experience). So I organized the permits and everything is set to go for our group of three (us two plus a friend, one female and two males). Just recently a situation has arisen and the result is that the friend will not be able to come. I would like your advice on how doable the following itinerary is for two people:

May 20: Drive from Salt Lake City to Zion National Park early in the morning and do Spry Canyon
May 21: Das Boot + Subway
May 22: Behunin

Does anything shoot up red flags? Are these canyons doable for two people who have some experience but have not been in a canyon for two years? Should any canyon on our itinerary be replaced with a different one?

There is nothing in particular in these canyons that would raise a red flag, but...

No one here has any idea of your level of competence. Canyoneering requires competence. These canyons are generally straightforward, but they do require some degree of competence. It is up to you to decide whether you are up for that level of competence.

You might try to round up some partners for these trips, both here on da Bogley, or over at the Canyon Collective ( canyoncollective.com ).

Tom

[Rob L]

Hello Raven (and wife!). Welcome.

Tom speaks wisely, and others more familiar with those canyons will jump in.

May I ask why it has taken you so long to speak up?

Rob

[Scott P]

Just recently a situation has arisen and the result is that the friend will not be able to come.

Subway permits are hard to come by and if you have an extra one, you might ask here if an experienced canyoneer would be willing to "tag along" at least for that one.

Also, make sure to keep an eye on the weather forecast. The flash flood danger in some of those might not be quite as high as some other canyons in the area, but I wouldn't want to be in any of them during a rainstorm.

[Iceaxe]

It's usually really easy to find partners on Bogley, if you have extra spots on your permits... so... did you keep the extra spots on your permit or did you turn them back in already?

FWIW- I turn in extra spots two days before by calling the backcountry desk. That way they can be used by others.

[mferl]

Welcome Raven. Nice to know there are fellow easterners out enjoying canyons!
I'm not experienced in those canyons, but I did notice that the beta for most indicate they could be long days for you...especially Behunin.You mention you have previous experience, but haven't been in a canyon for two years.
I recently decided to do Pine Creek based on "some" experience and that turned into a much longer day than anticipated.
Just be honest with yourselves and if you are up for a 10-12 hour adventure, then go for it. If you have never done that before, maybe something with a little less commitment might be appropriate. Best wishes.

[Iceaxe]

What Zion canyons have you done?

If you haven't done them I'd consider a Pine Creek/Keyhole combo to be a must do day. This also gives you the option of skipping part two if you are running behind schedule.

I consider Spry and Behunin to be the same type canyon, meaning open, a bunch of rap's with no real slot section. I'd prefer to mix things up a bit more... but that's just me.

[Raven]

There is nothing in particular in these canyons that would raise a red flag, but...

No one here has any idea of your level of competence. Canyoneering requires competence. These canyons are generally straightforward, but they do require some degree of competence. It is up to you to decide whether you are up for that level of competence.

You might try to round up some partners for these trips, both here on da Bogley, or over at the Canyon Collective ( canyoncollective.com ).

Tom

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the quick reply. I have been a long-time lurker on Bogley and a big fan of you. I am confident in my canyoneering abilities, but my wife is not as skilled or knowledgeable beyond rappelling. I think having a third person definitely makes sense. It is a shame we lost the third person. We will make other threads about finding a partner.

[Raven]

Hello Raven (and wife!). Welcome.

Tom speaks wisely, and others more familiar with those canyons will jump in.

May I ask why it has taken you so long to speak up?

Rob

We would have been fine had our original plans panned out. The third person and I are pretty experienced, and the third person has done all the canyons listed on my itinerary before. Only today did I discover the third person will not be able to go with us (though I had suspected it might turn out this way for the last two days). That is the meaning hidden under my original statement of "Just recently..."


Subway permits are hard to come by and if you have an extra one, you might ask here if an experienced canyoneer would be willing to "tag along" at least for that one.

Also, make sure to keep an eye on the weather forecast. The flash flood danger in some of those might not be quite as high as some other canyons in the area, but I wouldn't want to be in any of them during a rainstorm.



We still have the third spot open on each of the permits. We will try to find a partner on the forums. Thanks for the heads up on the weather. Right now, it looks like Monday is the only day of rain at Zion National Park, and we are supposed to get there on Wednesday. But we will definitely keep a close eye on the weather. We would not want to get caught in rain.


It's usually really easy to find partners on Bogley, if you have extra spots on your permits... so... did you keep the extra spots on your permit or did you turn them back in already?

FWIW- I turn in extra spots two days before by calling the backcountry desk. That way they can be used by others.



We still have the third spot on our permits. We will certainly get them turned back in if we cannot increase our group size and if we do not feel confident enough to do the canyons the two of us.

[Raven]

Welcome Raven. Nice to know there are fellow easterners out enjoying canyons!
I'm not experienced in those canyons, but I did notice that the beta for most indicate they could be long days for you...especially Behunin.You mention you have previous experience, but haven't been in a canyon for two years.
I recently decided to do Pine Creek based on "some" experience and that turned into a much longer day than anticipated.
Just be honest with yourselves and if you are up for a 10-12 hour adventure, then go for it. If you have never done that before, maybe something with a little less commitment might be appropriate. Best wishes.

Good to meet another easterner, too! I have not configured all my profile settings, but I live in Maryland now. I spent my college years in Utah and really miss outdoor adventures in southern Utah. I definitely prefer the red rock and slot canyons to the green, dense forests and low, rounded mountains out here. The outdoors are nice here, but I think the outdoors are on a totally different level out west.

The long days are definitely a consideration. It is also hard to mimic the elevation change on the Behunin approach, for example, out here.

[Scott P]

I consider Spry and Behunin to be the same type canyon, meaning open, a bunch of rap's with no real slot section.

I haven't done Behunin (and have also heard that it was open), but I thought Spry had some pretty good slot sections. They weren't tight slots, but they were deep and dark.

[Slot Machine]

Hello @Raven (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=27500) , weclome to Bogley. :mrgreen:


No one here has any idea of your level of competence. Canyoneering requires competence. These canyons are generally straightforward, but they do require some degree of competence. It is up to you to decide whether you are up for that level of competence.

Tom

Let's ask some questions, in order to judge your level of competence. Then perhaps we can be more helpful.

Which canyons have you done? How many hours did each canyon take? Did you lead these canyons? Any fun stories of hardships?

[Raven]

What Zion canyons have you done?

If you haven't done them I'd consider a Pine Creek/Keyhole combo to be a must do day. This also gives you the option of skipping part two if you are running behind schedule.

I consider Spry and Behunin to be the same type canyon, meaning open, a bunch of rap's with no real slot section. I'd prefer to mix things up a bit more... but that's just me.

At Zion I have only done Pine Creek. My experience is much more from Arches and also Capitol Reef. Luckily, Pine Creek/Keyhole is open (according to permit reservation system). We could switch it out for our Spry day (Tuesday, after driving from SLC). I would definitely prefer to keep Subway and Behunin.

[ratagonia]

At Zion I have only done Pine Creek. My experience is much more from Arches and also Capitol Reef. Luckily, Pine Creek/Keyhole is open (according to permit reservation system). We could switch it out for our Spry day (Tuesday, after driving from SLC). I would definitely prefer to keep Subway and Behunin.

Here's some advice worth every penny you paid for it:

"I am confident in my canyoneering abilities, but my wife is not as skilled or knowledgeable beyond rappelling."

1. RED FLAG! Uh, well, depending. Is your wife a competent rappeller, so this is not a problem or an issue, and either of you can safely and confidently go first or go last? What is your belaying plan?

2. Drive from Salt Lake and do Spry??? Not a good idea, especially given #1 above. Drive from Salt Lake and do Keyhole and Pine Creek is PERFECT!

3. Spry has a hot approach hike, best done early in the morning. It has some nice downclimbs and a bunch of short rappels. It is shorter than Behunin. I recommend Spry over Behunin for these reasons.

4. Perhaps you would be forthcoming with what canyons you have done in Arches and Capitol Reef - but really it does not matter. What matters is how quickly your wife picks it up, and what SHE feels like doing. Behunin is mostly a series of long rappels, and if she is comfortable on those... on the other hand, we have seen perfectly capable climbers with plenty of rappelling experience epic in there.

5. Wetsuits and helmets, please. I like wearing a wetsuit for Spry and for Subway, because it makes it better. Certainly for Keyhole and Pine Creek. Not needed for Behunin.

6. If you already have a permit (not a reservation) for a canyon, you can go in and switch it if room is available without paying a new fee.

Tom

[Raven]

Hello @Raven (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=27500) , weclome to Bogley. :mrgreen:

Let's ask some questions, in order to judge your level of competence. Then perhaps we can be more helpful.

Which canyons have you done? How many hours did each canyon take? Did you lead these canyons? Any fun stories of hardships?

As for canyons I have not strayed from the beaten path too much. By that I mean that the canyons I have descended are pretty popular and see multiple groups in a day. Each time I have gone, I have been the lead or one of the leads. Canyons I have done are:

- Granary Canyon
- Medieval Chamber
- Cameltoe
- Tierdrop
- Cassidy Arch
- Pine Creek

To my memory, they were all about a half-day or less of canyoneering. Medieval Chamber was fun. I was the lead and everyone was looking to me for knots and anchors. Four of us in the group did the simul-rappel off of Morning Glory Arch with two ropes connected by a single Euro death knot. That was probably beyond our experience but we were extremely happy with the results.

[Raven]

Here's some advice worth every penny you paid for it:

"I am confident in my canyoneering abilities, but my wife is not as skilled or knowledgeable beyond rappelling."

1. RED FLAG! Uh, well, depending. Is your wife a competent rappeller, so this is not a problem or an issue, and either of you can safely and confidently go first or go last? What is your belaying plan?

2. Drive from Salt Lake and do Spry??? Not a good idea, especially given #1 above. Drive from Salt Lake and do Keyhole and Pine Creek is PERFECT!

3. Spry has a hot approach hike, best done early in the morning. It has some nice downclimbs and a bunch of short rappels. It is shorter than Behunin. I recommend Spry over Behunin for these reasons.

4. Perhaps you would be forthcoming with what canyons you have done in Arches and Capitol Reef - but really it does not matter. What matters is how quickly your wife picks it up, and what SHE feels like doing. Behunin is mostly a series of long rappels, and if she is comfortable on those... on the other hand, we have seen perfectly capable climbers with plenty of rappelling experience epic in there.

5. Wetsuits and helmets, please. I like wearing a wetsuit for Spry and for Subway, because it makes it better. Certainly for Keyhole and Pine Creek. Not needed for Behunin.

6. If you already have a permit (not a reservation) for a canyon, you can go in and switch it if room is available without paying a new fee.

Tom

1. Point taken. The original plan was to have her in the middle so that she would only have to worry about rappelling. But going first or last definitely has additional fear and responsibility. I know for certain she cannot go last.

2. Spry was suggested by the third person, so I had incorporated it into the plans. After reading some beta on Pine Creek / Keyhole, I think they seem doable.

4. "... experience epic ..." do you mean something like "epic problems?" The group of canyoneers I use to ride with experienced one of those epic problems. I was not with them on that trip.

5. Helmets as always!

6. I did not know that about switching permits around. Good to know.

Thanks for your much help. Not only from you, Tom, but from everyone. It has inspired good conversation on our end. My wife said Behunin is probably too much, and she joked that the only replacement third person she would be comfortable with would be "someone like Tom" (I guess she has heard of you, too).

[Slot Machine]

My wife said Behunin is probably too much...

It sounds like Das Boot would be too much too. I'd recommend adding that to your second trip through The Subway.

Skipping Das Boot will guarantee that you finish day #2 before dark, help you get a couple extra hours of rest, then you'll have the energy to play on day #3.

My brother-in-law got beat down on our Das Boot day, exhausted from hauling a 7mm wetsuit. Swore he would never go back...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?63542-Das-Boot-amp-The-Subway

[Iceaxe]

If you are open to other ideas.... on day one drive from SLC and hit Kanarra Creek and Yankee Doodle on the way down.

Kanarra Creek is not technical, but it is certainly one of the most amazing and beautiful slot canyons on the Colorado Plateau.

Yankee Doodle is just a great little slot canyon to get your wife started for the weekend. It should be well within your skill set from the canyons you have listed.

No permits needed for either canyon so that issue is solved.

If you stick to your original itinerary you are going to be banging out three big days in a row, most average canyoneers will never make day three unless they are in really good physical condition and experienced in canyoneering. At least have beta on the two canyons listed above if day three rolls around and another big day has lost some of its appeal.

[oldno7]

If I was in your situation, I'd go with Keyhole combined with your drive down on day 1.

Day 2 go for Das Boot Subway,a great canyoneering experience and likely a super long day.

Day 3 wake up and smell the roses, yep, take it off from canyons and do a hike on the East side, depending on how much energy you have left.

My guess is, you won't get in the East side hike.

Try to make your trip a bit more casual and not a mad dash to notch your belt with as many canyons you can jam in to a 3 day trip.

Following this suggestion, might get you a future canyoneering partner. 3 days of death marches combined with long drives, will make you a bachelor canyoneer. Somewhere the idea is to have fun, making ones first indoctrination to canyoneering, long,painful,exhausting, scary is not something a potential, future partner should have to deal with.

If your idea is to scare your wife off from canyoneering and have a girlfriend lined up for future trips, your plan is solid.
If your trying to develop a competent partner who will share your enthusiasm, relax more.

Some of us have enjoyed taking wifes and daughters on canyon trips for many years, the rest are on CC. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Some of us have enjoyed taking wifes and daughters on canyon trips for many years, the rest are on CC. :lol8:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Who would have ever guessed Bogley would become the family friendly canyon forum.

:2thumbs:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6vs2gWmhKg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyLo5BrmzcE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF_L-fwpzyI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkHXwcG43ZY

[Slot Machine]

If I was in your situation, I'd go with Keyhole combined with your drive down on day 1.

Day 2 go for Das Boot Subway,a great canyoneering experience and likely a super long day.

Day 3 wake up and smell the roses, yep, take it off from canyons and do a hike on the East side, depending on how much energy you have left.

My guess is, you won't get in the East side hike.

Try to make your trip a bit more casual and not a mad dash to notch your belt with as many canyons you can jam in to a 3 day trip.

Following this suggestion, might get you a future canyoneering partner. 3 days of death marches combined with long drives, will make you a bachelor canyoneer. Somewhere the idea is to have fun, making ones first indoctrination to canyoneering, long,painful,exhausting, scary is not something a potential, future partner should have to deal with.

If your idea is to scare your wife off from canyoneering and have a girlfriend lined up for future trips, your plan is solid.
If your trying to develop a competent partner who will share your enthusiasm, relax more.

Some of us have enjoyed taking wifes and daughters on canyon trips for many years, the rest are on CC. :lol8:

Dang Kurt, rarely do I agree with every word. Well done sir!

[Raven]

Just an update:

The day before our flight my wife accidentally cut her toe. The cut was relatively deep, so the doctor recommended against the prolonged exposure to canyon water we would have had for part of our plans. Furthermore, Behunin seemed too formidable to my wife.

In the end we scrapped all our canyoneering plans and instead did easier hikes around Zion.

Thanks everyone for the help.