How to switch from ascend mode to descend mode mid rappel when using MicroTraxion

[nkanarik]

I was playing around at my backyard with rope ascension, and found it pretty difficult (:stud:) to switch from ascend mode to descend mode mid rappel, when using the MicroTraxion and was wondering if anyone has a better way.

Ascending setup: MicroTraxion connected directly to my belay loop. Tibloc1 connected to the rope with double foot loops.

Transition Process:

While tension is on the MicroTraxion, I set up a quick MMO (Munter Mule Overhand) between a carabiner on my Harness-Belay-Loop and Tibloc1.
My goal now is to remove the tension off of my Microtraxion, which was the problem I was facing.
Therefore, I introduced Tibloc2 (with a double length sling connected to it) above Tibloc1.
Once I had Tibloc1 and Tibloc2 setup, I was able to get the tension off of the MicroTraxtion, and from there on it was easy to continue the standard procedure of loading my MMO, disconnecting the MicroTraxion, and connecting my belay device and rappel down (I didn't include a couple steps, which are not relevant to my question).


This was fairly complicated and used a lot of gear, so was wondering if there's an easier way when using a MicroTraxion as part of your ascension set up.

Thanks

[SRG]

My ascent setup is very similar to yours. I also use a Micro Traxion on the belay loop with a Petzl Basic for the top ascender which has a footloop and harness tether attached to it. Here's how I do it.

1) Tie a secondary backup tether with a friction hitch.

2) Stand up in the footloop attached the top ascender. The MicroTraxion automatically slides up the rope, but until I manually snug it up the last few inches, my weight is on the top ascender.

3) With one hand... this part takes practice and is difficult on free rappels... pull back the toothed cam on the Micro Traxion and lock it open so it no longer grabs the rope.

4) Gently sit back until you're hanging off the harness tether on the top ascender.

[nkanarik]

I'll give it another try this weekend. Kind of tried that, but was difficult, so decided to pull out my tibloc2 :).

Thanks!!!

[hank moon]

While hanging from MT, install descender directly below it and tie-off; unlock MT 'biner and go from there...

or

Stand, clip into Tibloc (or existing harness tether) 'biner with a short tether and go from there...

[hank moon]

3) With one hand... this part takes practice and is difficult on free rappels... pull back the toothed cam on the Micro Traxion and lock it open so it no longer grabs the rope.

It might be easier to unclip the MT 'biner from the harness instead of cam manipulation...

[Taylor]

Use prusiks.

[harness man]

Here is one more for you VT prussic fans:
Rig your descender below the MT and lock it off(CRITR works great for this).
Attach the VT prussic above your ascenders.
transfer the back up tether and foot sling from the top ascender to the VT. Remove the top ascender.
Stand up on the VT prussic, make sure it is secure. Remove the MT.
CAREFULLY bump the top of the VT downwards- and slide down until your rappel device is fully weighted.
Unlock your device and continue rappelling sliding the VT along as a back-up.

[nkanarik]

While hanging from MT, install descender directly below it and tie-off; unlock MT 'biner and go from there...

My MT is attached to my harness, so the only thing below it, is the dangling rope. Are you saying I should connect my descender (ATS/CRITR) on that dangling rope, apply the MMO and remove the MT? I'll give it a try too, but just from reading/visualizing it, I'm not sure how it will work better :)

Thanks for chiming in!!! Will keep you all posted on my attempts...still soliciting for feedback

[nkanarik]

Here is one more for you VT prussic fans:
Rig your descender below the MT and lock it off(CRITR works great for this).
Attach the VT prussic above your ascenders.
transfer the back up tether and foot sling from the top ascender to the VT. Remove the top ascender.
Stand up on the VT prussic, make sure it is secure. Remove the MT.
CAREFULLY bump the top of the VT downwards- and slide down until your rappel device is fully weighted.
Unlock your device and continue rappelling sliding the VT along as a back-up.

This method is somewhat equivalent to mine...it's using another piece of gear (VT prussic vs. Tibloc2)...
Thanks though

[Kuya]

Love ascending with my MT! :) If you know you are going to have to transition to a rappel after ascending, it might be better to go up with a different setup. Use a VT Prussik rigged with a Valdotain Hitch. or use a Grigri.

[harness man]

The reason for rigging the rappel device (locked of) below the MT is to have redundancy when the MT is removed.
The BIG difference with the VT versus any other hitch or ascending device is that it is release-able WHILE you are hanging on it!
No need to unweight.

[harness man]

If you are ascending and the climb is not difficult (like free- hanging with a big pack on) then you can rig your CRITR below the ascenders,
stand up on the footloop(s) and balance against the rock,
remove the MT
push the CRITR up the rope snug and lock off.
Sit back on the CRITR, unweight and disconnect the top ascender/foot loop
Rappel
May have to shoot some video demo tomorrow...

[nkanarik]

I'd love to see that video :)...BTW...I'm hanging off of a large tree branch in my backyard (i.e. free hanging) using a single 8mm rope to simulate what I consider worst case scenario or something close to it (minus the height/fear factor :scared:)

[Kuya]

I'd love to see that video :)...BTW...I'm hanging off of a large tree branch in my backyard (i.e. free hanging) using a single 8mm rope to simulate what I consider worst case scenario or something close to it (minus the height/fear factor :scared:)

worst case scenario.... you lost everything but the rope you have to ascend... how do you get up that one?

[hank moon]

Are you saying I should connect my descender (ATS/CRITR) on that dangling rope, apply the MMO and remove the MT?

Yes to the first step, no to the step after that. There is no need for an MMO or any other gear. Fun puzzle, eh? Your initial post had me thinking that you might enjoy a good puzzle, since you did not reveal all of the steps in your process. It's more engaging and educational to discover stuff on one's own. At least it is for me. How about you?


I'd love to see that video :)...BTW...I'm hanging off of a large tree branch in my backyard (i.e. free hanging) using a single 8mm rope to simulate what I consider worst case scenario or something close to it (minus the height/fear factor )

Yes. So much technique can be practiced 1' off the ground in relative comfort and safety. Still, pay attention to the possibility of sudden inversion and head-smack-garden-gnome.

[nkanarik]

worst case scenario.... you lost everything but the rope you have to ascend... how do you get up that one?

Agree this is worst :)...my comment was WRT to the gear I have with me (i.e. very thin rope, free hanging).

In your case... (assuming I cannot use the help/gear of other team members)

Using prussics, but what if I lost my prussics?
Not ascend and wait for SAR / Other teams to pass canyon? :cool2:
locking off my rappel device, and start creating leg loops with the main rope (Yikes...painful)



Yes to the first thing, no to the latter. There is no need for an MMO or any other gear. Fun puzzle, eh? Your initial post had me thinking that you might enjoy a good puzzle, since you did not reveal all of the steps in your process. It's more engaging and educational to discover stuff on one's own. At least it is for me. How about you?


Yep!...Will try to solve this weekend

[hank moon]

worst case scenario.... you lost everything but the rope you have to ascend... how do you get up that one?


One read is that you still have your shorts, shirt and helmet, etc. but you've lost all vertical gear except the rope. No harness, carabiners, descender, etc. Do you have a knife in this scenario?

Kuya, would you clarify "lost everything" with specifics ?

[Kuya]

I was thinking that all you have is yourself, harness and the rope. All else was lost. Would it be possible to use just the rope to get up and down the cliff? Free hanging cliff. 30'+ [emoji6]

[Kuya]

I think it is possible, but you would need a pretty long tail of rope to make it happen.

[harness man]

Whoaa...
should not be posting during work...
Hank is right- I am totally over thinking this
Just did a quick convert off a roof beam-
ascend rope
attach rappel device and lock off (below ascenders)
down jumar/ prussic until device is loaded
remove ascenders and rappel

[nkanarik]

attach rappel device and lock off (below ascenders)
down jumar/ prussic until [rappel] device is loaded
remove ascenders and rappel

Couldn't wait for the weekend to try, so went outside and just tried it. I'm still having hard time with the red text above. I'm not able to load the rappel device and unload the MT with only the Tibloc1 and leg loop connected to it. I'm able to unload the MT when introducing additional hardware like prussic or Tibloc2+sling...:ne_nau:... Urggghhh

More hints / Videos are welcome :naughty:

Have a nice weekend everyone wherever you are

[harness man]

Ti blocks are not easy to release and move down the rope (those nasty little gerbil teeth!).
The Micro traxion and Basic are MUCH easier once you learn how to thumb the triggers.
Of course you have to alternately unweight them to do this.
By this I mean moving the ascenders down without removing them from the rope.

[nkanarik]

I have no problem moving the tiblocs down the rope even if they are ~3'-4' above me. What I'm not getting is how you guys don't use extra HW besides "Tibloc1/Basic/VT+leg loop" and "MT", in order to transition the weight off of the MT into the rappel device.

Bottom line...I know how to transition...just looking for a simpler/easier way with minimal HW

[hank moon]

Couldn't wait for the weekend to try, so went outside and just tried it. I'm still having hard time with the red text above. I'm not able to load the rappel device and unload the MT with only the Tibloc1 and leg loop connected to it. I'm able to unload the MT when introducing additional hardware like prussic or Tibloc2+sling...:ne_nau:... Urggghhh

More hints / Videos are welcome :naughty:

Have a nice weekend everyone wherever you are


Honestly, it sounds as if more familiarization time (i.e. practice) with your equipment would do a lot for your understanding. The best hint I can give at this point is to repeat that it's possible to do the transition without any additional gear, and that you should review the info given and try again (and again...).

You are probably very close to solving this. Put your stuff on rope, hang from the MT, install and lock off your rappel device below it and figure out how to transfer your weight to it using only the Tibloc/footloop/tether setup. Hang there, and focus on that next step, what needs to happen in the moment, instead of trying to map out the entire procedure in advance. There's no shame in trying repeatedly and failing. Lots of value there. Where's the value in asking for the answer to the puzzle? That's just cheating! ;-)

Oh, and when you do fail, ask yourself why you failed, and how you might not fail on the next iteration. It might also help to give us the blow-by-blow specifics as to how you are failing. Writing it out can often lead to insight.

Good luck and please keep us updated.

hank

"If you give a man a fish he is hungry again in an hour. If you teach him to catch a fish you do him a good turn."

[nkanarik]

Thanks Hank...will take on the challenge! I already practiced ~5 transitions today with my (more complicated) method
And to be clear...only gear available to solve this puzzle is:

MT + Carabiner to clip
Tibloc1+Carabiner to clip + Leg Loop
Rappel Device + carabiner to clip (I often use a rappel device extension, but this is a don't care one way or another for this problem I assume)


Hope to come back with good news later this weekend

[hank moon]

nk, re: gear list, normally when ascending there should be a tether between harness and Tibloc. This tether is not necessary to do the transition, but it does give additional options.

And I suppose your "leg loop" is what is commonly called a "foot loop?"

Transitioning to an extended rap device can be more difficult. Suggest mastering the non-extended transition before trying that.

[Canyonbug]

worst case scenario.... you lost everything but the rope you have to ascend... how do you get up that one?

OOh, I know I know!! :)

[hank moon]

OOh, I know I know!! :)

yeah, but you're a guide. You have to "know" with both hands tied behind your back. :)



and blindfolded













and greased rope














and maybe other stuff too

[Mountaineer]

I was thinking that all you have is yourself, harness and the rope. All else was lost. Would it be possible to use just the rope to get up and down the cliff? Free hanging cliff. 30'+ [emoji6]
Start with tail. Prusik above, loop to harness,.... tie foot loops as you go.

[Tirrus]

I was thinking that all you have is yourself, harness and the rope. All else was lost. Would it be possible to use just the rope to get up and down the cliff? Free hanging cliff. 30'+ [emoji6]


Best case I would want to have both strands of rope without a block at the top, running through a quick link.

I would tie tie into my harness with one strand using a figure 8 follow through, leaving enough tail to tie a blakes hitch with a stopper knot to the other end of the rope. Using foot wraps, on the line with the blakes hitch I would have a 2:1 MA (ideally). Step up, move hitch, sit down, repeat.

-Tirrus

[Kuya]

Rigged this with about 15 feet of tail. Used the end of the rope to make an ascending system. Would need to get a bit more creative in connecting this to a harness with out using a carabiner, but the idea is the same [emoji4]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/12/28e275a1c77c327e070c2c3e2af5c9f7.jpg

[nkanarik]

Not sure if this is how you guys do it, but I got it to the point that all I need for a smooth and fast transition is:

MT + Carabiner0 to clip
Tibloc1+Carabiner1 to clip + Foot Loop / 48" sling
Rappel Device + carabiner2 to clip


Ascension Process:

Hook up MT to harness with carabiner0 (I'm right handed, and I find it easier to connect the MT so that I pull the rope from it with my left hand...i.e. rope dangling from the left)
Hook up Tibloc1 and foot loop to carabiner1 on the rope (above the MT)

Optional - I sometime connect a second large carabiner3 to carabiner1, so that I can use it as a handle.


Ascend


Start Transition to descending mode...


Get into a sitting position so that tension is on MT
Connect rappel device + crabiner2 to the harness and to the dangling rope below the MT and lock off the rappel device.
Unlock/Unscrew carabiner0 (the one connected to the MT)
Stand up and load Tibloc1, and while it's loaded

Unclip the carabiner0+MT from the harness (MT+ carabiner0 are now hanging on the rope)
Go slowly back into sitting position (can use the foot loop as a hold for a smooth transition) so that the rappel device is now loaded


Unclip the MT+carabiner0 and Tibloc1+carabiner1+Foot loop from the rope
Unlock rappel device
Rappel and continue to the next challenge


After many practices this weekend, I can do this really quickly and with minimal effort.
I did try other things too, but not worth mentioning here.

Feedback is welcome

[Bootboy]

Does anyone here tie a catastrophe knot?

I always tie one about 6' below the business and clip it to my harness. It's the first thing I do after locking off.

[harness man]

Nice job nkanarik!
That is the same sequence I use.
Bootboy- the big-wall style back up knot can never hurt! - though nkanarik has redundancy in his connection to the rope as long as there is a leash on both ascenders

[nkanarik]

Does anyone here tie a catastrophe knot?

I always tie one about 6' below the business and clip it to my harness. It's the first thing I do after locking off.

I do that too, but in this case, i was 4' off the ground and didn't have much extra rope to do that

[ratagonia]

Does anyone here tie a catastrophe knot?

I always tie one about 6' below the business and clip it to my harness. It's the first thing I do after locking off.

We used to call those "Chicken Loops". Often a good idea.

Tom

[hank moon]

Not sure if this is how you guys do it, but I got it to the point that all I need for a smooth and fast transition is: <deletia>

Hey, nice technique! Way to persevere.

Q: may we assume that you normally use a tether between harness and Tibloc, but omitted it in this exercise because _______________ ?

(please fill blank)

[nkanarik]

Hey, nice technique! Way to persevere.

Q: may we assume that you normally use a tether between harness and Tibloc, but omitted it in this exercise because _______________ ?

(please fill blank)

I know you mentioned it in an earlier thread, and was wondering about the necessity of that additional tether between the harness and Tibloc1/Carabiner1...
My thought process below...

More stability is one rason, but not necessary
If Tibloc1/carbiner1 fails...that won't do any good
If Carbiner0/MT fails (before connecting descender)...nothing connect me to the rope...ouch...:nono:... (unless I implemented Tom's chicken loop).
If Carabiner 0/MT fails after I connect the descender, then descender it the backup.


Conclusion: Probably a good practice anyhow to add that additional tether (24" sling) (but not a must, if not handy and implementing the chicken loops)

Right?

Anyhow...I really appreciate your feedback and challenges/quizzes...it got me thinking quite a bit this weekend :2thumbs:

[hank moon]

Conclusion: Probably a good practice anyhow to add that additional tether (24" sling) (but not a must, if not handy and implementing the chicken loops)

Right?

Anyhow...I really appreciate your feedback and challenges/quizzes...it got me thinking quite a bit this weekend :2thumbs:


Great! Here's another challenge for you (or anyone):

Post up a short + / - list (advantages and disadvantages) of using a tether vs. using chicken loops.

Assumption: you are ascending on an extremely low-stretch canyoneering rope such as BlueWater Canyon Pro (aka Zion Pro).

[nkanarik]

Great! Here's another challenge for you (or anyone):

Post up a short + / - list (advantages and disadvantages) of using a tether vs. using chicken loops.

Assumption: you are ascending on an extremely low-stretch canyoneering rope such as BlueWater Canyon Pro (aka Zion Pro).

I'll start the list :)

Advantage

Less shock-load to the system
Less messy - Protection is there from the get go...no need to deal with yet another variable such as creating the "chicken loops"
If you start with it and find the need for an extra sling during your climb up, you now have one, since you can undo it and transition to the chicken loop method


Disadvantage

Using extra gear

[hank moon]

I'll start the list :)

Advantage

Less shock-load to the system
Less messy - Protection is there from the get go...no need to deal with yet another variable such as creating the "chicken loops"
If you start with it and find the need for an extra sling during your climb up, you now have one, since you can undo it and transition to the chicken loop method


Disadvantage

Using extra gear




It's not hard to imagine that the MT could accidentally lock open in use during a stand phase, which if un-noticed, might produce an unwelcome surprise in the sit phase...

A minimum of two connections to the rope is the general rule when using ascending devices, making the Tibloc tether essential gear.

[deagol]

the tether I use (Purcel prussic) is easily adjustable in length, even when under load