Rapel Devices

[Archie]

I just bought my rope (9.2mm Canyonero) and am looking into what rapel devices to purchase for me and my 9 year old son. I was initially thinking of the BD ATC-XP however am starting to second guess myself. I weigh about 205 and am wondering if the BD will provide enough friction to feel comfortable on the rapel. My son is very lightweight maybe 60 pounds so he may have the opposite problem of having something with too much friction. What devices would be recommended?

[Slot Machine]

I just bought my rope (9.2mm Canyonero) and am looking into what rapel devices to purchase for me and my 9 year old son. I was initially thinking of the BD ATC-XP however am starting to second guess myself. I weigh about 205 and am wondering if the BD will provide enough friction to feel comfortable on the rapel. My son is very lightweight maybe 60 pounds so he may have the opposite problem of having something with too much friction. What devices would be recommended?

I'm a big fan of the ATC XP Guide. It seems to feed the rope a bit more smoothly than the ATC XP. It should work fine for your setup, but if it feels fast, use two biners under the ATC instead of one.

My wife weighs about 100 lbs and uses the original BD ATC. It is a little fast for my size, but works well for her. It is a $10 investment. Get one for your son and see what he thinks. If that is too slow, then consider something else.

Keep in mind that the 9.2 will be a bit fast the first time you use it. A little bit of in-canyon water and mud will fix that.

Also, a 2 hour lesson will save you a month of figuring things out yourself. Something I didn't do, but highly recommend.

[Archie]

I Plan on going to Zion this summer a couple times. I will be doing the bottom up Subway hike and then in June I will be hiking top down Narrows. After the Narrows I will take a full day course to learn the more technical aspects. After the course I am planning on doing one more canyon. Thinking of Orderville if I don't draw the subway permit for June. I think that It will allow me gradually learn and next year will allow me to do some of the larger canyons.

[Slot Machine]

Take a full day course before you do anything. Before paying your bills. Before taking your dog for a walk. Before lunch. Right now.

THEN plan some stuff. You'll be shocked how many options will open up once you know how to use a rope.

Seriously, if you are getting into technical canyoneering, don't waste a grueling day doing the Subway from the bottom up. Smashing your thumb with a hammer is far more enjoyable. The Subway happens for everyone that owns a rope. Just wait for it, then do it the fun way.

Also, you might not believe this, but you'll learn to hate The Narrows if you over-do them. I'd separate your Orderville and Narrows adventures so you'll have time to forget the pain of walking on mossy bowling balls.

[Archie]

The main reason I am doing the bottom up subway hike is that I assume the top down will not be passable at this time of year. My current permit is for April 10th. I will be down there on vacation with the family and thought it may be a good day hike.

Other than Orderville what would be a decent option to do during the first week of June. I would love other options. I will likely not have a long enough rope to do pine creek or options like that until next year when the wife will allow me to invest more money.

[Slot Machine]

The main reason I am doing the bottom up subway hike is that I assume the top down will not be passable at this time of year. My current permit is for April 10th. I will be down there on vacation with the family and thought it may be a good day hike.

Why not wait and do The Subway top-down another month? Or another year? Do you have terminal cancer or something?

Trust me, bottom up will suck. 10 miles (5 miles each way) of slog for 200 feet of good stuff. When you hike in from the bottom, you can't go above The Subway proper, so 90% of the real adventure will be hidden from your view. Toss in some nice crumbly switchbacks to finish the day. Your family will love you less afterwards.


I will likely not have a long enough rope ... until next year when the wife will allow me to invest more money.

I bet canyoneeringusa.com will let you put a 200 footer on layaway, then you can pay something like $7 a month until it is yours. A winning strategy. I bet your wife won't even notice!

[Archie]

For the subway it will just be me and my son but I know we won't get to see 90% of the good stuff but it will be good exercise and a decent day hike. Once I have more details of what days I will be available in June I may reach out and see about finding more experienced canyoneers to join in June so that we can go somewhere other than Orderville.

[moab mark]

IMO get a criter or sterling atc.

[hank moon]

Hi Archie, you seem to have a good handle on the ATC's limitations. It is not recommended for general canyoneering; especially to be avoided in your son's case due to his relatively light weight. With the ATC, it is possible to ADD friction, but impossible to get LESS friction than the minimum/baseline setting*. Overall, the CRITR (http://canyoncollective.com/threads/new-critr-rappel-device.19053/page-14#post-86383) is the best choice currently on the market. That said, the current model doesn't work well for lightweight people (i.e. your son). A new version that addresses this issue is reportedly (http://canyoncollective.com/threads/very-lightly-used-critr.20932/#post-89834) in production and available soon. The new version should work well for you and your son, and there are advantages to both of you using the same descender, especially when just starting out.

Also, might want to check out a recent thread (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?73603-Need-help-deciding-on-a-descender&p=564880&viewfull=1#post564880) on this topic.

Good luck and play safe,

hank

* Note: it's also impossible to get less friction than the min./baseline setting with most any device, but the ATC's min./baseline setting has more friction than that of most other devices (e.g. CRITR, Pirana) when using a stiff canyoneering rope. How's that for fine print?

[ratagonia]

I Plan on going to Zion this summer a couple times. I will be doing the bottom up Subway hike and then in June I will be hiking top down Narrows. After the Narrows I will take a full day course to learn the more technical aspects. After the course I am planning on doing one more canyon. Thinking of Orderville if I don't draw the subway permit for June. I think that It will allow me gradually learn and next year will allow me to do some of the larger canyons.

I am a canyoneering instructor at Zion Adventure Company. Or, at least, I am if I ever actually taught classes anymore.

An important part of any instruction, especially in a physical sport, is practice and application. At ZAC we call this solidifying the skills. If you take a class and then do not do any technical canyons, the skills you learn will disappear.

Your best bet is to take the class the first day, and then do technical canyons the next couple of days. Orderville and Subway in this context do not count as technical canyons - they have so little ropework that it just does not count as practice. Canyons like Pine Creek and Mystery are much better for solidifying skills.

Who among your friends are you taking the class with? Who will you do canyons with after the class? You will get much more value out of the class if you take it with a buddy, and the two or more of you can check each other, and work through canyons together.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The main reason I am doing the bottom up subway hike is that I assume the top down will not be passable at this time of year. My current permit is for April 10th. I will be down there on vacation with the family and thought it may be a good day hike.



There are years in which spring snow melt floods the Subway, and it is impassable.

This year, there is no snow. There will be no spring snow melt.

I agree with SLOT that the hike from the bottom up is lame. In April, OK. In June - Crazy Hot unpleasant brutal AND lame. I would not bring a kid, no matter how good a hiker, on it in April or in June.

Tom

[moab mark]

Not enough money on earth to bottom up. I'd do Earley again before bottom up.:)

[jman]

Not enough money on earth to bottom up. I'd do Earley again before bottom up.:)

Haha.

Eardley ain't that bad! Well...it is if you do the death march standard approach! :bootyshake:

Next time take the shortcut route which will drop you literally at the mouth of canyon narrows. Downclimbing skills are definitely needed.

[Archie]

In April I won't have time to take the course and get away for one of the canyons. The top down seems preferred but with very minimal experience makes me a bit nervous. I understand he physics behind the rappelling and canyoneering but lack any real world practical experience.

[moab mark]

IMO Subway regardless of which direction is a very big hike for the average 9 year old.

[moab mark]

Slightly off topic I'm sure many have come down to the subway and then gone back up? If you have worth it? Or just go out the bottom?

[Archie]

We hiked about 8 miles in a day in Arches last year in the middle of June (Devils Garden) plus some other smaller hikes. 9 miles in April's cooler weather should be doable.

[ratagonia]

We hiked about 8 miles in a day in Arches last year in the middle of June (Devils Garden) plus some other smaller hikes. 9 miles in April's cooler weather should be doable.

Hiking on a trail and picking your way down a streambed with minimal social trails are very different things. I can usually make 3 mph on a trail, and make about 2 mph on the Subway exit, WITH full-length legs.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Slightly off topic I'm sure many have come down to the subway and then gone back up? If you have worth it? Or just go out the bottom?

The amount of elevation gained on going back up the top is HUGE.

It certainly is not easier or faster.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Slightly off topic I'm sure many have come down to the subway and then gone back up? If you have worth it? Or just go out the bottom?

Special kinda masochist does that. One that enjoys pain and suffering.

Its funny, but, the permit system does kinda make one wonder about this. You could get a permit for Das Boot, and, not get a permit to do the Subway? I'd probably suss out a way to sneak past the sentries...ha ha. And, really, the park shouldn't issue one and not the other. Unreasonable expectation for sure.

[moab mark]

We hiked about 8 miles in a day in Arches last year in the middle of June (Devils Garden) plus some other smaller hikes. 9 miles in April's cooler weather should be doable.

Not trying to rain on your parade but when my son was 12 years old Subway was brutal on him. He is not going back I can promise you that. In that same year he did Englestead, Pine Creek and most of the other routes in Zion. YMMV

[Archie]

I am sure it will be a long day and we will take it slow. He seems to be able to keep up pretty well and enjoys scrambling up rocks.

[Slot Machine]

I would not bring a kid, no matter how good a hiker, on it in April or in June.


I am sure it will be a long day and we will take it slow. He seems to be able to keep up pretty well and enjoys scrambling up rocks.

http://i.imgur.com/qbJcD0R.gif

[TommyBoy]

And, really, the park shouldn't issue one and not the other. Unreasonable expectation for sure.

The problem with this is that sooner or later the masses would realize that getting a DB permit let you do the subway and all the schmucks that couldn't get a subway permit would then gobble up the DB permits whether they were doing it or not.

[deagol]

I thought this thread was about rappel devices....

[flatiron]

Hiking on a trail and picking your way down a streambed with minimal social trails are very different things.

Tom

My memory after 5-6 times in Subway is of there not being much of a trail really in the upper part as you hike down from the actual Subway. Lots of rock hopping, creek crossings, etc. Only in the last couple miles as you get closer to lower TH does a trail emerge. Certainly nothing like a maintained trail in Arches, or Zion.
I hope it goes well but methinks not a good hike for small kid.

[Archie]

Definitely understand the difference. The Devils Garden trail does have a decent portion of the trail is across slick rock and more primitive. Not as much as the subway but it isn't as maintained as other park trails either.

[Iceaxe]

My kids did top down Subway when they were 6 and 8. They both enjoyed it and have done it numerous times since. With kids you just have to slow down and go at the speed they want.

Some kids are ready at 6 and some are never ready, it just depends on the kid, their experience, their likes and their goals

[Iceaxe]

Just for fun, here is a picture of my kids first trip through Subway. If I remember correctly I carried my daughter through several of the deep pools so she wouldn't get cold.

79055

[harness man]

Hey Deagol
At least it is family friendly
:2thumbs:

[nkanarik]

Just completed 7 canyons with the CRITR device, and I don't have enough words to describe how pleasant it was to rappel with it (prior to CRITR, I tried various ATC, ATS rappel devices). I love the preset friction setting as well as the on-rappel friction setting (which I used many times during these canyons). I must say, I was worried at first that the CRITR will wear-off very quickly, but even after 7 canyons (with lots of water and sand) it's still in a very good condition! I'd recommend the CRITR to anyone who's looking for a new rappel device.

[jman]

Just completed 7 canyons with the CRITR device, and I don't have enough words to describe how pleasant it was to rappel with it (prior to CRITR, I tried various ATC, ATS rappel devices). I love the preset friction setting as well as the on-rappel friction setting (which I used many times during these canyons). I must say, I was worried at first that the CRITR will wear-off very quickly, but even after 7 canyons (with lots of water and sand) it's still in a very good condition! I'd recommend the CRITR to anyone who's looking for a new rappel device.

I agree 100% as well.


That new descender, the SQWUREL, looks pretty interesting too made by Luke of Bluugnome.

But the crittr worked very well on a 350ft cliff I did a couple weekends ago here in Northern Utah.

[2065toyota]

The CRITR is also my go to device right now. Being a little taller and heavier, it seems to work a lot better for me. The ATS is in my pack as my back up which I also really like, I just like the settings on the CRITR a little bit better. Looking forward to trying a SKWERUL though

[harness man]

Welcome to the family!

80311

You can check out Luke's SQWUREL at BG-Gear.com
Nice work Luke!

[Cameron7]

Just grabbed mine and will try it out in the Subway tomorrow. I can't wait to get my SQWEREL in action! I