Contingency Anchors!

[Kurly_Q]

Hi All!

I'm new here, but I've been canyoneering for a couple years now. I have a good amount of experience with ropework, anchor systems, self rescue systems, haul systems....etc.

I am hoping to take a couple friends with more limited experience canyoneering this spring. I've taken rather inexperienced others along before (with a couple rappelling training sessions beforehand to teach them the basics, like tying off)

I've pretty much exclusively used the toss-and-go method for my anchors up until this point (with a fireman's belay). In the event of a stuck rappeler, I've always had a second rope and planned to do pick-offs.


This spring, however, I would like to speed things up and maybe cut down on the massive amount of gear I take when bringing beginners. Therefore, I've been looking into contingency anchors!
Mainly, contingency anchors that will isolate both strands and allow one to attach their rappel device while the other strand is being used for rappel. I looked around, and I like the look of the figure 8 contingency as pictured below:
7761277613

My only worry is that these two images look different. Also, there is a lot about hoe important it is to have the rope run over the carbiner in the quicklink to allow for de-tensioning, and I'm not sure either of those images show that correctly.

I guess my question is: would you use this system as a simple and quick system for a large party of slightly inexperienced canyoneers, and if so, how exactly does the top rope need to run over the top carabiner? I'm the kind of person that wants to figure it out in my head before going out and practicing!

Thanks so much in advance!

[Slot Machine]

would you use this system as a simple and quick system for a large party of slightly inexperienced canyoneers?

No, I wouldn't, unless I was doing a class C canyon. Or if I was a guide. Is that what you are doing? If so, then ignore everything below.
____

Often times there is safety built into simple canyoneering routines. Once you get very good a handful of skills, the likelihood of screwing up your routine approaches zero.

I'm a big fan of teaching people to rappel properly, and not a big fan of needless complexity. Nobody in my groups will ever get hurt by using a fiddlestick; nobody in my groups will ever get hurt by a contingency anchor, simply because we don't use them.

I've done perhaps 800 in-canyon rappels and watched thousands more. And I've never wished for or needed more rope tricks than we currently use.

I apologize for jacking your thread... but I cringe when I see this nonsense spreading, like this is what we all should do. The need for this tool arises during 0.001% of rappels, so it doesn't justify the added risk.

Somebody had a contingency anchor fail a year or two ago and nearly killed someone. A needless brush with death. Some jackass taught them that they should use that tool all of the time...

So if you teach your peeps to keep their jackets and hair out of the way and bring a good ratio of experienced folks to inexperienced folks (1:1), then you'll never need this 'tool'.

Nothing personal against you Kurly Q. Welcome to Bogley. :mrgreen:

*swimming against the tide of geeked out canyoneering folks that vehemently preach for the use of every canyon invention ever created*

Bob

[Iceaxe]

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

[Kurly_Q]

Believe it or not, these were the responses I was secretly hoping for. The added complexity seemed a little unnecessary for anything other than class C. I was starting to feel a little guilty, as a lot of what I was reading online was "USE CONTINGENCY ANCHORS OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE"

Moving forward, I'll stick with my previous anchor methods and fireman belay, emphasize keeping clothing free of the rappel device during my pre-canyon rappel workshops, and maybe even throw in a simple "here's how you get unstuck" section for those workshops.

Since I avoid class C canyons when I'm with anyone but my most experienced friends, I can't think of a situation where the need for these would actually arise on my trip this spring. If anything, thanks for easing my mind.

If I did want to isolate strands for a slightly faster group rappel, I think I'll go with a stone knot. Any thoughts on that?

[TommyBoy]

I think contingency anchors are a good idea with beginners, but only if you know them really well. As slot machine said when you know your routine the likelihood of an accident goes way down. If you can find someplace to set it up and practice it safely before you take them out, and have the time to repeat it enough to make sure you get it down then it is a worthwhile skill to have and use. SM's comment on training your people not to get things stuck in their devices is a good one, but getting them enough experience on rope to guarantee it won't happen will take time you might not have between now and when you're planning on going out so being able to rig a contingency isn't a bad idea, so long as you can do it safely. The idea behind a contingency anchor isn't that you think something bad will happen, but just in case it does. If the noobs are accident prone enough that you think its likely you will need the contingency you should probably not take them anyway.

[Kurly_Q]

The idea behind a contingency anchor isn't that you think something bad will happen, but just in case it does.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Assuming there isn't running water, I can think of at least one way to rescue a stuck rappeller that's doing a double rope rappel, even without an extra rope.

Just to clarify, these aren't completely inexperienced canyoneers. I've taken them on a very basic canyon last year (U-Turn in arches, for those wondering) and done a pretty extensive rappelling workshop before that. Their knowledge is just short of being able to switch over to a prussic-based ascension mid-rappel.

All in all, I think I will focus my energy into making my group more knowledgeable, rather than training myself to undo easy-to-prevent rookie mistakes. While contingency anchors are a cool little piece of tech that definitely have their place (and I'll probably add them to my toolbox soon), I personally feel comfortable without them for this trip, especially in canyons that I've been in multiple times.

And finally, thanks for all the input so far. If I'm being blatantly stupid in any of my assertions, feel free to point it out. I'm all about safety, and I want to keep that in the forefront of my attention as I am excited to show my friends the beauty of canyons that I've experienced.

[Slot Machine]

If I did want to isolate strands for a slightly faster group rappel, I think I'll go with a stone knot. Any thoughts on that?

I think using stone knots to increase group speed is one of those things that looks great on paper. But,

I always fear that the last person down will forget to untie the stone. Especially since the last person down is frequently not the person that set up the rappel. And because some of my friends are very forgetful. Oh, I just remembered, I'm forgetful too!

So yeah, THEN, you'd have a big problem on your hands. Unless you have a rope jugging fetish.

Instead of using stone knots I like bringing several ropes, creating a system for shuttling the ropes forward, and going with people that are fast with rope (like @TommyBoy (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=20959)). A tough combo to beat, speed wise.


If the noobs are accident prone enough that you think its likely you will need the contingency you should probably not take them anyway.

:2thumbs: :lol8:

[Kuya]

I think that using a contingency 8 is a good idea. But not like what is shown in the picture you posted. I use what is called a figure 8 block. It is just as quick to rig as a clove hitch block, but gives you the option to lower people of needed.

[Kuya]

The munter mule contingency rig is also a good rig to use when setting up practice rappel stations. Requires minimal gear, and can let you lower someone easily if needed. I Have needed to use these systems a few times when leading youth groups. Very good skills to learn and know how to use.

[oldno7]

So---having one do repetitious rapels makes rapelling accidents close to zero.

But trying a contingency rigging once, deems them complicated.

Could it even be possible that a little practice with a contingency system would make them simple?

Nahh--thats crazy talk--unless maybe you're dangling from a rope because you made a poor choice

and have no hope of being rescued without putting your group in peril--nahh, couldn't happen.

Double strand away.......It's simple and safe, until it's not...:ne_nau:

[ratagonia]

Believe it or not, these were the responses I was secretly hoping for...

Then you certainly posted on the correct forum!


In the event of a stuck rappeler, I've always had a second rope and planned to do pick-offs.

The pickoff is the most difficult, most complicated, slowest and most dangerous rescue technique on hand. Experienced rescuers consider it the absolute last resort. So NO, you are not going to do that, and you should not be under the illusion that you can pull that off. With an extra rope, you might be able to slide down there and assist them in freeing themselves, which is a whole lot easier than doing a pickoff. In training guides, I have seen otherwise rational, experienced, smart, technically-savvy guide-trainees make a mistake which could have killed both rescuer and rescuee. Whistle blown, training session aborted.

The Figure-of-Eight thing you showed pictures of is not a contingency anchor setup. It is a semi-contingency complication, and I don't really see how it helps. If you are going to go that route, I suggest using a simple, actually contingent anchor setup.

THIS forum is populated by canyoneers who have disdain for technical knowledge, and for whom nothing will ever go wrong in a canyon. I am the president of the "A**hole canyoneers" who think that knowing what you are doing in the canyons is a good idea, especially before you take out noobs and place them under your care. I consider canyoneering to be a CRAFT, and part of the point is to develop you own personal craft and improve your method. Analogy: The first bookcase I made is a mess, but the 100th bookcase I make is a thing of beauty. The difference being that when I screw up the dados on my third bookcase (first one with dados), I am not putting anyone's life at risk. My fingers perhaps, but...

You have identified yourself here as TECHNICALLY-CURIOUS. You have also made clear that your technical skills are at the beginner level, known on Bogley as being an expert. I encourage you to socialize and party with the troglodytes here on Bogley, but not take technical advice from them. Start working on your craft, perhaps by canyoneering with people who know what they are doing; perhaps by paying for some training. I also suggest that your skill level is not appropriate for taking people through technical canyons, except the easiest of such, such as the Subway and Orderville.

SORRY to be the party pooper in this love-fest of the anti-technical 'canyoneers'... NOT!

Tom :moses;

[Canyonbug]

I am a huge fan of setting contingency anchors. This goes to an argument a few weeks ago on DRT vs. SRT again. Setting a contingency is allowing yourself an option to resolve a situation if it occurs quickly. A Pickoff puts more people at risk than just the one hanging on the rope that is stuck. A contingency anchor is a viable option to quickly get someone off the rope and resolve the issue without putting another person at risk. I have been guiding for over a decade and while it would make obvious sense to use a contingency in a guided scenario, I use a lot of contingency setups on personal trips. It just makes sense to set it up for a release if necessary.

That being said, the picture in the original thread is not a contingency anchor. It is a 1/2 contingency 1/2 stone knot of some sort., but would be extremely difficult to use as a contingency when loaded.

77615


http://youtu.be/cYtYLJz9h58

[harness man]

All politics aside...:mrgreen:
Desi and I part of the "Vegas crew" and have been tutored under the likes of Parker Simper (canyon guide) and other local talents.
Our experience (in canyons, and in numerous practice/training sessions) would lead us to concur with Tom's technical assertions.
Suggest you hook up with qualified canyon instructors or individuals to learn 'the ropes'.
We have an excellent meetup group in Vegas where Parker and others organize very popular canyon training seminars.
There are many good resources (professional instruction) in California, Utah, and Nevada.
And Ratagonia himself sometimes guides/teaches thru Zion Adventure Company in Springdale.
We think you will really appreciate professional instruction.
We have!
Best
Todd and Desi

[Kurly_Q]

Wow, this blew up! I guess this is the internet, so I'm not exactly surprised.

First off, I would like to clarify that I by no means claim to be a master of technical ropework.
Also, I agree with Ratagonia, and I am most definitely not planning on taking any noobs down anything more than easy, short, canyons with minimal water.

Also, I understand that even with the most experienced canyoneers, accidents CAN AND WILL happen, and having a large and varied technical toolbox is sometimes the only way to deal with scenarios that may not have been considered beforehand.

And finally, my statement about "making a pickoff" was mis-spoken. Instead of "a stuck rappeller," I should have said "A stuck and unconscious rappeller." THAT is the scenario in which I think performing a pickoff is essentially the only option in the event contingency anchors were not used. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the scenario of a stuck and conscious rappeller without a visual sightline to the top, I agree that lowering down, assessing the situation, and attempting to help them free themselves is the best course of action.

Now...moving forward!

Moving forward, I've decided to forget about isolating both strands to have the group go "faster." (I will learn the skill for future canyons in which time saved translates to safety, but for the canyons and group size I'm thinking about for this trip, it really doesn't make sense)

Also, I will practice the munter-mule contigency anchor until I could make it in my sleep, as I have previous experience giving a top-managed belay with a munter, and I like the simplicity.

Also, mentioning simplicity, I think this would be a good time to clarify something:
I have no aversion to having and applying advanced technical knowledge to canyoneering. I do, however, believe that everything should be balanced with simplicity. Personally, I believe that unneeded complicated systems can lead to accidents, even with practice. There is a time, place, and scenario for every system, but applying over-complicated techniques to simple situations is just asking for trouble. (Reference: Why performing a pick-off with a simple stuck rappeller is a stupid idea and not what I meant to say earlier)

And finally, thanks for the discussion, suggestions, and correction. I have indeed changed my mind about a couple things through the posts here.
It is good to be proven wrong and I appreciate the humbling. I will put the safety above personal pride any day.
Thanks again, all!

[Slot Machine]

Bogley rules. I wasn't aware of any other canyoneering forums existence. :ne_nau: I'll have to look into that.

77620

I do not think of canyoneering as a craft. It is a hobby. If you add gears and cogs and dovetails and dados to it, canyoneering is still just a hobby. If you shove sparklers up you ass then light them while you are on rappel, canyoneering is still just a hobby.

@Kurly_Q (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=26639), don't shy away from you initial reaction. Learn the fun little rope tricks then store them somewhere in the wrinkles of your brain. They probably won't come in handy, but they might. My argument is that those skills should be used when they are really, REALLY needed.

I'm not anti-technical or anti-intellectual. I AM anti-excessive-complexity. The introduction of excessive complexity to the hobby of canyoneering adds more problems than it solves. (Fiddlesticks. Contingency anchors. Niacin.)

When you say 'stereo' I think:

77621

Tom thinks:

77622

and oldnumber7 thinks:

77623

But hey, I think of buying a ghetto blaster as a CRAFT.

:lol8: :wedgie:

[Iceaxe]

And in response to Tom's little melt down.... I'm still trying to figure out some canyoneers think they need to complicate something as simple as a rappel? In dry canyons I normally just tread my rope through and go.... nothing is faster, nothing is more simple.... and I'll argue nothing is safer....

Now I use the other methods when I have a reason... say I'm on a long rap and using a pull cord…. Or I have beginners I'm worried about needing to lower…..

One of my biggest beefs/complaints is that a lot of folks take simple rigging and make it complicated…. There is a reason most the accidents and death's involve complicating the rigging...

I practice KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid.

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204

Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627

Pine Creek: SAR in Zion
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285

All the accidents listed above were a result (at least partially) of complicating the rigging.... More parts.... more crap that can go wrong....

Ratagonia should certainly remember the Heaps death, that's the accident where he left the beginners to fend for themselves so he could make the Pizza noodle before closing.

:cool2:

[Slot Machine]

Moving forward, I've decided to forget about isolating both strands to have the group go "faster." (I will learn the skill for future canyons in which time saved translates to safety, but for the canyons and group size I'm thinking about for this trip, it really doesn't make sense)

Also, I will practice the munter-mule contigency anchor until I could make it in my sleep, as I have previous experience giving a top-managed belay with a munter, and I like the simplicity.

Also, mentioning simplicity, I think this would be a good time to clarify something:
I have no aversion to having and applying advanced technical knowledge to canyoneering. I do, however, believe that everything should be balanced with simplicity. Personally, I believe that unneeded complicated systems can lead to accidents, even with practice. There is a time, place, and scenario for every system, but applying over-complicated techniques to simple situations is just asking for trouble. (Reference: Why performing a pick-off with a simple stuck rappeller is a stupid idea and not what I meant to say earlier)


77688

[Scott P]

..

[ratagonia]

And finally, my statement about "making a pickoff" was mis-spoken. Instead of "a stuck rappeller," I should have said "A stuck and unconscious rappeller." THAT is the scenario in which I think performing a pickoff is essentially the only option in the event contingency anchors were not used. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Pickoff still unlikely to be the best solution. Convert to lower and lower. Possible have an attendant rap down next to them to help out with the lower.

Faster, safer, easier.

CONVERSION is the most useful rescue tool. It takes training and practice.

Tom

[Kurly_Q]

Pickoff still unlikely to be the best solution. Convert to lower and lower. Possible have an attendant rap down next to them to help out with the lower.

Faster, safer, easier.

CONVERSION is the most useful rescue tool. It takes training and practice.

Tom

If the patient is weighting both ropes, and the rope is just fed through a quicklink at the top (No alternate anchor used), how would you convert to a lower without a second rope? I can think of a way to do it if you were able to get to the patient and transfer their weight onto only one of the ropes...But otherwise, I'm not sure that's possible.

Again, using something better than just feeding the rope through the quicklink to anchor at the top would mitigate this scenario before it even arose, and is the wise thing to do.... but without an extra rope, I'm not sure converting to a lower is possible in this scenario.

[ratagonia]

If the patient is weighting both ropes, and the rope is just fed through a quicklink at the top (No alternate anchor used), how would you convert to a lower without a second rope?

Why would you EVER put yourself in this situation? Oh right, you were canyoneering with Shane and Slot Machine. You already frakked up.

Tom :moses:

[Slot Machine]

Fortune cookie say:

If you might need 2 ropes, then bring two ropes.

Now it's time for a fun video of a frack-up practicing rope tricks that he never uses:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo21QYS1jjU

[Absolute Gravity]

I'm hoping the rope tricks in the 'often used' bag excite Steph more than this one. No video evidence required, I'd take your word for it.

:naughty:

[hank moon]

Ratagonia should certainly remember the Heaps death, that's the accident where he left the beginners to fend for themselves so he could make the Pizza noodle before closing.

Shane, you know I love you, but this is the ugliest forum post I've ever seen in the canyon community.

Beyond the pale.

hank

[mzamp]

:popcorn:

I still believe the best canyoneering skill is the un-noticed pick-off. That's the one where you clear the sand and dirt from your nose without your friends noticing. 77694

[flatiron]

I can't open any of Shane's links? Is it me? (probably)

[Skeeter]

Shane, you know I love you, but this is the ugliest forum post I've ever seen in the canyon community.

Beyond the pale.

hank

Agreed! This thread is wasted.

[harness man]

Sigh....
In the (perhaps) vain hope of moving in a positive direction...
Kurly_Q:
If you have only one rope and you have tossed both ends and are rappelling double strand then there is NO conversion to anything.
That is the point.
There is a (slim) chance you could tie on to the dual ropes with a VT prussic and (if you could get past any lip) get down the rope to the victim.
Once at the victim you STILL have an extremely difficult problem of what to do with them.
Given this scenario you would have been MUCH better off rappelling single line with the rope set with a figure 8 contingency or munter contingency.
And then you would STILL have had the free end (pull side) of the rope to rap down (instead of lowering the victim) if you chose to.
If you are going to rappel double strand you need an extra rope for emergencies, otherwise options are pretty poor.
Not impossible, but poor.
rappelling double strand with only one rope is pretty common for newbie climber-type canyoneers (we resembled that!).
But without more resources (rope!) it could be a formula for trouble.

[Slot Machine]

In the (perhaps) vain hope of moving in a positive direction...

Going down the rabbit hole of improbable hypothetical scenarios is not a positive direction.

Most rappels are double. Tens of thousands of rappels a year. Yet you never hear of anyone in this situation. Strange, isn't it?

Honest question- does anyone have even one report of a patient getting stuck on double rappel in this fashion? No second rope. Unable to rescue themselves. ANYONE??





I vomited a little when I used the word patient. Ugh.

[Kuya]

Going down the rabbit hole of improbable hypothetical scenarios is not a positive direction.

Most rappels are double. Tens of thousands of rappels a year. Yet you never hear of anyone in this situation. Strange, isn't it?

Honest question- does anyone have even one report of a patient getting stuck on double rappel in this fashion? No second rope. Unable to rescue themselves. ANYONE??





I vomited a little when I used the word patient. Ugh.
Ive had to do 4 rescues. Three of which were people on double strand rappel, and for two of those I had to do some kind of hero rescue. The third we did a conversion to a lower with a 3rd rope.The fourth was a easy fix because we had rigged the drop with a contingency.

[oldno7]

I've posted on here before about the young gal stuck on rappel on the last rap in Pine Cr., yea--double strand....

Don't know if the stuck girls party was capable or prepared to rescue her but they didn't seem to mind when Andy and I

stepped in and helped get her safely un stuck.

Or how bout the guy in a California canyon, behind us who tried a double strand rappel, he apparently threw down his first strand

thinking it hit bottom, then he tossed his bag and heard it hit. When this canyoneer got on rope and 40' from the bottom, he realized

his first strand of his double strand rappel was 30' short..(think that one through) We heard the screams for help and did....

[deagol]

there was also an experienced canyoneer somewhere in Utah who died doing double strand rap where one end was short. Was posted on here a couple years ago.

[Bo_Beck]

Not to bash, discredit or suggest merits of any rigging, but having been involved pretty extensively in "rescue" (recovery) scenarios (mostly all in Zion) over the past 19 years, I would suggest that most to my memory were as a result of single rope rappels. Contingincy anchor systems wouldn't have made a difference unless it was rigged as a top belay. As much as the previous post was very distasteful (won't mention which), I will agree with that persons philosophy about "Kiss". I've been along with folks that have rigged SRT systems, after a long, strenuous day, and sure enough mistakes were caught fortunately before the descent began. That being said, I have no problem with DRT, SRT or contingincies, but feel that simplicity to any system is key.

[oldno7]

I believe both SRT and DRT have a place.
The key to either is having enough familiarity that problems can be addressed.
Hoping nothing will happen, as well as a track record of nothing happening, is no guarantee
that nothing ever will!
Having enough experience to deal with problems is a great way to not become headline news.
Ignoring potential problems with either technique, will gain you notoriety.

[harness man]

Slot machine-
agreed that double strand rappels are simpler to set up, automatically afford a higher level of friction, are what ATC type devices are designed for, and are what most people (climber types especially) are used to.
But is it fair to say, that without an extra rope at the top of the drop, rescue options for a stuck (conscious or not) rappellor are limited?

[Bo_Beck]

Or how bout the guy in a California canyon, behind us who tried a double strand rappel, he apparently threw down his first strand thinking it hit bottom, then he tossed his bag and heard it hit. When this canyoneer got on rope and 40' from the bottom, he realized
his first strand of his double strand rappel was 30' short..(think that one through) We heard the screams for help and did....
Dang Kurt! Don't you watch the videos? Remember the fellow in Pine Creek at the last rappel? They had a 170' rope? so he came down last with one end of the rope 30' above the bottom, but, but he thought it out really well! He just twisted the ropes around each other numerous times before descending, and when the end of the rope that was 30' up passed through his devise the untwisting action of the ropes would provide enough friction to gently lower him the remainder 30' on the single strand! NOT! :-)

[oldno7]

Dang Kurt! Don't you watch the videos? Remember the fellow in Pine Creek at the last rappel? They had a 170' rope? so he came down last with one end of the rope 30' above the bottom, but, but he thought it out really well! He just twisted the ropes around each other numerous times before descending, and when the end of the rope that was 30' up passed through his devise the untwisting action of the ropes would provide enough friction to gently lower him the remainder 30' on the single strand! NOT! :-)

Well--I guess a bad plan is better than no plan:roflol:

[deagol]

I believe both SRT and DRT have a place....

+1 to this

[oldno7]

Kindergarten is simple--college a bit more difficult,
How many ceo's use only kindergarten credentials to move up in the world?

How many here only have a kindergarten diploma---no, never mind, don't want to out anyone:mrgreen:

education is for schmucks who are not born with incredible intelligence.

Double strand only, baby, it's what the big kids do....

[Slot Machine]

Ive had to do 4 rescues. Three of which were people on double strand rappel, and for two of those I had to do some kind of hero rescue. The third we did a conversion to a lower with a 3rd rope.The fourth was a easy fix because we had rigged the drop with a contingency.

I would like to hear more about the first three rescues. (not being snarky at all)


Not to bash, discredit or suggest merits of any rigging... but feel that simplicity to any system is key.

Best post of this thread, no question. Thanks Bo.


Slot machine-
agreed that double strand rappels are simpler to set up, automatically afford a higher level of friction, are what ATC type devices are designed for, and are what most people (climber types especially) are used to.
But is it fair to say, that without an extra rope at the top of the drop, rescue options for a stuck (conscious or not) rappellor are limited?

Yes, absolutely fair to say.

Perhaps the exercise should be, "how do you prevent this problem", rather than, "how do you deal with this problem".

This stuff doesn't happen to us because we prevent it. Or or because we are super lucky. Or because we are very clever. Or perhaps all three. :haha: :ne_nau:

[harness man]

Appreciate those with experience willing to revisit these topics.
I may think SRT is the only way to get thru IMLAY but some will fly thru there all double strand, without even a rope bag, and leave my team in the dirt!
More than anything like to now HOW they do it!
Easy to assume there is only one good way.

[Iceaxe]

I can't open any of Shane's links? Is it me? (probably)

I don't know why those links are no longer active. Below are new links to a couple of the stories. I also noticed someone had removed the original "I fell 106 Feet" post. I have replaced it with a different version along with an edit note.

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33314

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26059

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35747

I'll have to Bogley tech's look into why the old links no longer work.

[Iceaxe]

Shane, you know I love you, but this is the ugliest forum post I've ever seen in the canyon community.

Beyond the pale.

hank

So exactly how many people have to die because of the promotion of overly complicated and silly-ass rope tricks before my post would be considered acceptable? Just give me a number, because if this shit continues more will die or be seriously injured.

I understand all these techniques have a use and a place, but 99% of your recreational canyoneers will never have a need or use for any of them. But the rec canyoneers see the big dogs and a Zion guide promoting them and think that must be the correct way, and we already know how well that works out in the end.

If you wish to champion overly complicated and silly-ass rope tricks that's cool, but shoulder some responsibility for the final results.

:soapbox:

[Nordschleife]

You should know both before entering a canyon unsupervised.
If it isn't necessary to use a contingency anchor rap double, but if you can't see if your rope is touching and you go down on double you're a moron and shouldn't be in a canyon in the first place.

[Brian in SLC]

Why would you EVER put yourself in this situation? Oh right, you were canyoneering with Shane and Slot Machine. You already frakked up.

Tom :moses:


THIS forum is populated by canyoneers who have disdain for technical knowledge, and for whom nothing will ever go wrong in a canyon. I am the president of the "A**hole canyoneers" who think that knowing what you are doing in the canyons is a good idea, especially before you take out noobs and place them under your care. I consider canyoneering to be a CRAFT, and part of the point is to develop you own personal craft and improve your method. Analogy: The first bookcase I made is a mess, but the 100th bookcase I make is a thing of beauty. The difference being that when I screw up the dados on my third bookcase (first one with dados), I am not putting anyone's life at risk. My fingers perhaps, but...

You have identified yourself here as TECHNICALLY-CURIOUS. You have also made clear that your technical skills are at the beginner level, known on Bogley as being an expert. I encourage you to socialize and party with the troglodytes here on Bogley, but not take technical advice from them. Start working on your craft, perhaps by canyoneering with people who know what they are doing; perhaps by paying for some training. I also suggest that your skill level is not appropriate for taking people through technical canyons, except the easiest of such, such as the Subway and Orderville.

SORRY to be the party pooper in this love-fest of the anti-technical 'canyoneers'... NOT!

QFT

[Brian in SLC]

If it isn't necessary to use a contingency anchor rap double, but if you can't see if your rope is touching and you go down on double you're a moron and shouldn't be in a canyon in the first place.

You calling me a moron? I usually match ends or place the middle mark at the anchor, toss the rope ends down, and, rarely see both ends on the ground before I start rappelling.

Now, I pay attention to both ends as I rappel. Chances are, they're on a ledge or hung up midway. So, I stop and pick them up and re-toss. And, if for any reason, they aren't equal, I can equalize them, or, at least stop on rappel if need be.

There are GOBS of rappels where you can't see the bottom over a pourover, or, after a long ramp, etc. So, its not really practical to expect to always see the rope ends on the ground at the bottom of the rappel.

I don't think that makes me a moron. Or anyone else either.

[Kuya]

I would like to hear more about the first three rescues. (not being snarky at all)

All but one have to deal with teaching noobs how to rappel. Not in a slot canyon. Had a few get their hair stuck, and one got their glove stuck.

One rescue was when a buddy went down the large rappel (DRT) in Upper Imlay, and bypassed a two rappel stations. he had the rope and skills to self rescue, but we opted as a group to convert to a lower and get him down that way.

[Slot Machine]

Not in a slot canyon.

Awww man, you know those don't count!

77702




The last example is interesting. I did not know that blind folk did Imaly! Crazy!

...and a good example of a contingency paying off, I'll give credit where credit is due. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Why would you EVER put yourself in this situation? Oh right, you were canyoneering with Shane and Slot Machine. You already frakked up.

Tom :moses:


Yo Tom, why don't you explain to everyone how you recently busted your ass and broke some bones because of a silly rope trick?

Serious Injuries from silly rope tricks:
Tom: 1
Shane: 0

[SRG]

Rope tricks don't kill people, people kill people. Seriously. It's not the rope's fault, it's the person hanging from it.

Any way you cut it, rappelling through canyons is a rope trick, and a dangerous one. I rig 90% of my rappels in a straightforward and familiar manner, but having the experience, thoughtfulness and adaptability to recognize and safely complete the other 10% of rappels is the hard part... and it certainly isn't simple.

[harness man]

Here are some basic safety practices that Desi and I use to offset the hazards inherent in all rappelling systems:
1) At the beginning of each rappel connect to the anchor near the rapide with a DAISY that has enough reach.
Connect your rappel device to the rope close to the rapide and FULLY WEIGHT IT.
Double check the device, feed a few inches of rope, have your partner (if present) double check also.
Remove your daisy and rappel.
If everyone weighted their device before unclipping this would prevent a lot of accidents. not always possible depending on the anchor set-up, but certainly easy with most Zion moderates.
2). If using SRT, with or without a contingency, always safety the pull-end with a figure 8 knot clipped back to the anchor. Lapar removes it AFTER riggng their rappel and weighting their device FIRST (to check the block).
3) If you are new to SRT have Lapar toss the pull line before starting.
On the ground, take BOTH the rap line and the pull line with just a little slack and anchor them to your harness, and firemans belay.
If there is a block failure, this could save Lapar's life.
I think following these basic procedures (when practical) would have prevented many accidents, regardless of technique.

[Iceaxe]

Driving a car is dangerous... but there is a reason most of us don't drive drunk, at night, in a snowstorm, while talking on a cell phone... it's always nice to stack the odds in your favor.

[harness man]

Iceaxe-
I think we are in complete agreement that in canyoneering (and rock climbing, mountaineering, etc)
COMPLEXITY can be a killer.
So "keeping it simple" is a fundamental principle that keeps you alive for beginners and experts alike especially when one is
cold, tired, hungry, sleep-deprived, freaked out, etc.
So I think the principle (KISS) is universal- the debate for me is about what are the best practices to keep it simple.
You make a good argument for sticking with DRT in easy to moderate canyons, and for beginners.
As a noob canyoneer, but very experienced climber (40 plus years including 7 as a guide and volunteer rescue) I have REALLY enjoyed learning to canyoneer with Desiree. Some of the best times of our lives so far!
But I have noticed that "basic" canyon skills are not enough preparation for full Imlay, Heaps, etc due to "big wall" style station to station raps, potential pothole escapes, rigging guided rappels, raps and lowers, etc. and THE ABILITY TO DO THESE IN YOUR SLEEP.
Way to many inexperienced people go gunning for the advanced canyons with a very low skill set.

[Brian in SLC]

But I have noticed that "basic" canyon skills are not enough preparation for full Imlay, Heaps, etc due to "big wall" style station to station raps, potential pothole escapes, rigging guided rappels, raps and lowers, etc. and THE ABILITY TO DO THESE IN YOUR SLEEP.
Way to many inexperienced people go gunning for the advanced canyons with a very low skill set.

Heaps was my second technical canyon (after the Left Fork of North Creek in '86 or so). But...we were both fairly experienced climbers with wall experience, etc. We didn't find it that difficult. We blocked that last rappel because it made sense given the ropes we were carrying (300' plus two 50m ropes). Every thing else we DRT'd.

[harness man]

Brian
Climbers with wall experience = VERY experienced climbers I think :2thumbs:.
And very helpful on the Heaps exit, unless one WANTS to have their brain melt.