Looking for Winter Semi-Technical Canyon

[AKsnowbiker]

Every January for the last few years my friend and I go out in the Utah desert canyoneering. We've done Spooky/Peekaboo, scrambled up Leprechaun and Blarney from the bottom, done part of Spur Fork. Our favorites are Egypt 3 (without the rappel) and Main fork Bluejohn. One of these trips we'll get in a class to learn technical canyoneering, but not this year.

Looking for another canyon similar to Bluejohn or Egypt3 that has fun scrambling/downclimbing, but no rappelling. Also would need to be fairly dry.

[qedcook]

Getting antsy in winter, eh? Moonshine wash and Three Canyon might fit the bill. You could also do Little Wild Horse and Ding and Dang while in the area.

[Canyonbug]

You could also do Little Wild Horse and Ding and Dang while in the area.

I echo Little Wild Horse - although last time I took my kids out there we encountered some water in it that was unavoidable. We are currently getting snowed on in the Four Corners area so most areas will have some water melting into it right now.

[Iceaxe]

Music Canyon
http://climb-utah.com/SRS/music1.htm

We did the complete Music with no rappels. It would be a good idea to hang a rope at the drop as a handline if require for use both going down and back up. If you can do main Bluejohn top to bottom without a rope you should be able to do Music. If you get to a point in Music where you don't feel comfortable just turn around and live to play another day.

http://climb-utah.com/SRS/Files/Music01.jpg

And if there is poster child for someone who should learn to rappel it's a guy like you. The ability to complete a simple 15 or 20-foot rappel will open a large new selection of canyons to you, in addition to keeping you safe.

Here a few more canyons that should be on your to-do list, some of which contain water.

http://climb-utah.com/CM/blackhole.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/buckskin.htm

http://climb-utah.com/SRS/dingdang.htm

http://climb-utah.com/SRS/lbb.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Roost/moonshine.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/redcave.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/subway.htm

All of the above routes can be done without a rappel, some might require a short rope for handlines.

Enjoy....

[Scott P]

Be aware that Music Canyon can be very difficult if there has been snow or if it is wet. The reasons are that the basin draining into Music Canyon has a lot of clay beds, so the canyon is full of clay which is very easy when dry, but can be very difficult when wet.

Ding and Dang can hold water as well. Little Wildhorse stays drier, but I've seen it wet only once.

Farnsworth Canyon seems to usually stay dry as does Moonshine Wash. The North Wash stuff can be good from the bottom, but it sounds like you've done some of that. Some of the Robbers Roost area slots are partially accessible without rappelling.

I've done Happy Canyon Narrows in the winter, but you have to wade the river. Hatch and Fiddler Cove Canyons are nice, but you need a 4wd to get there, or do a long hike.

[AKsnowbiker]

Thanks for the info guys. Spent a lot of long winter nights reading several Kelsey books and surfing the internet. Moonshine, Ding/Dang were near the top of the list. Thanks Ice Axe for the Music suggestion I hadn't read about that one. I'll read up on Farnsworth. We'll have 4WD and have forded the Dirty Devil before, so I may look into Hatch and Fiddlers Cove.
Knee-deep icy puddles are ok, but don't want anything deeper than that in January.

[Scott P]

Swett is a good one for winter as well, but there is often a pool at the very end of the Wingate Narrows. Even if the pool is there, you can still see all the narrow sections of the canyon. The non-technical portions of Ticaboo are usually good for winter too.

[AKsnowbiker]

I'm looking at doing Horseplay and Arscenic this January. Don't have rappel gear but have some experience downclimbing several other slots. Kelsey's map of Arscenic shows a route into/out of the canyon after the 60m rappel, but before that canyon turns hard left. Can you bypass the 60m rappel?

[ratagonia]

I'm looking at doing Horseplay and Arscenic this January. Don't have rappel gear but have some experience downclimbing several other slots. Kelsey's map of Arscenic shows a route into/out of the canyon after the 60m rappel, but before that canyon turns hard left. Can you bypass the 60m rappel?

No.

[Scott P]

What Tom says (also, the route on Kelsey's map is labeled as downhill only for a reason). The 60m rappel can be broken into stages, but you still need to rappel. Without just exploring the technical slots up from the bottom, the only semi technical slot I can think of in that area is Lucky Charms, but it's short. Lower Maidenwater is really good (and non-technical) and I have done it in winter, but you will be wet.

[ratagonia]

No.

To clarify -

Those canyons over there are north-facing, therefore they hold snow and ice much longer than others. When wet, they are goopy and muddy.

No, you cannot bypass the first rappel. In winter, there would be quite a few MORE rappels, and anchors might be hard to find.

The exit climbs back up to the car - ALL of them - involve at some point climbing up slickrock. Even a tiny bit of snow on them might make that impossible. The walk-around is quite far.

My guess is that you have not done these canyons before. The FIRST rule of winter canyoneering is ONLY do canyons you have done before.

Walking in the bottom of Leprechaun might be a good choice. You can climb up quite a ways. There is a difficult step to get up, when it has snow on it.

Little Wild Horse?

Wild Horse?

Ding and Dang?

What have you done in the area?

(etc.)

[jman]

My guess is that you have not done these canyons before. The FIRST rule of winter canyoneering is ONLY do canyons you have done before.


That's probably the best winter canyoneering advice I've ever heard, actually, despite all the winter threads I have read.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AKsnowbiker]

The only canyons I've done have been in January the last few years (Main Bluejohn, Spur, Egypt 3, Spooky/Peek, Blarney/Lep from the bottom). I figured Kelsey's Arscenic map was wrong, but wanted to check with you guys.
We'll probably do Shuffleboard, Pottymouth/Upper Warm Springs, and Horseplay. These canyons seem like fun, but no ropes required right? Looking to avoid water.

[ratagonia]

The only canyons I've done have been in January the last few years (Main Bluejohn, Spur, Egypt 3, Spooky/Peek, Blarney/Lep from the bottom). I figured Kelsey's Arscenic map was wrong, but wanted to check with you guys.
We'll probably do Shuffleboard, Pottymouth/Upper Warm Springs, and Horseplay. These canyons seem like fun, but no ropes required right? Looking to avoid water.

Good to see you are now picking canyons you have done before. [/sarcasm]

Tom

[getlivingfit]

So I really want to get out this Winter and have planned with a small group to go to North Wash next weekend. January 23rd. BUT...after seing Tom's advice to only do canyons you have done before (in winter). I am a bit bummed. We have been dying to do Arscenic after seeing the entrance once but not having enough daylight left in the day. So my original question was would we be crazy to o arscenic in winter. We have only done blarney, lucky charms, in that area. We don't want to do them again. We are looking for techincal. But we are intermediates, with one girl that has only done the subway (very beginner). So...do we try arscenic, do leprechan because people say its decent in winter. Or head to Moab, or escalante, and do a route we have done before. (done a bunch of canyons in zion but its out of season?)

[ratagonia]

So I really want to get out this Winter and have planned with a small group to go to North Wash next weekend. January 23rd. BUT...after seing Tom's advice to only do canyons you have done before (in winter). I am a bit bummed. We have been dying to do Arscenic after seeing the entrance once but not having enough daylight left in the day. So my original question was would we be crazy to o arscenic in winter. We have only done blarney, lucky charms, in that area. We don't want to do them again. We are looking for techincal. But we are intermediates, with one girl that has only done the subway (very beginner). So...do we try arscenic, do leprechan because people say its decent in winter. Or head to Moab, or escalante, and do a route we have done before. (done a bunch of canyons in zion but its out of season?)

Well, perhaps CAREFUL advice would be helpful, along with recent descents.

I have not done Arscenic in winter. Those canyons face north, and tend to be muddy, so I am not compelled to head that way.

I can suggest the Leprechauns... But, ONLY if you start with East Leprechaun. Please be aware that Middle Leprechaun is about five times as much canyon action as East, so perhaps not everyone will be up for that. West Leprechaun is about the same action level as East.

We found Hogwarts to be quite pleasant.

Without seeing how you move in canyons, it is hard to recommend more than that. Perhaps the East/West Epic Blarney you would find entertaining.

"We have only done blarney, lucky charms, in that area. We don't want to do them again."

You cannot do them again, as they are different canyons now, than when you visited them before.

I know, kinda Zen.

Here is another of Tom's Canyon Koans:

'Everyone in the group is entitled to an outstanding trip, expect one person.'

Tom :moses:

[Slot Machine]

So I really want to get out this Winter and have planned with a small group to go to North Wash next weekend. January 23rd. BUT...after seing Tom's advice to only do canyons you have done before (in winter). I am a bit bummed. We have been dying to do Arscenic after seeing the entrance once but not having enough daylight left in the day. So my original question was would we be crazy to o arscenic in winter. We have only done blarney, lucky charms, in that area. We don't want to do them again. We are looking for techincal. But we are intermediates, with one girl that has only done the subway (very beginner). So...do we try arscenic, do leprechan because people say its decent in winter. Or head to Moab, or escalante, and do a route we have done before. (done a bunch of canyons in zion but its out of season?)

Arscenic is easy in the winter, so a good choice. It took us 4 hours car-to-car, moving verrry slowly. It's about as difficult as a Blarney, maybe a little easier, so I don't see why not.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?67168-Arscenic

Be sure to use good form by fixing your 200 footer at the top, then go back and retrieve it after the canyon.

And when you get home, use good form by posting a trip report to Bogley. :cool2: :mrgreen: :2thumbs:

-Bob

[ratagonia]

Arscenic is easy in the winter, so a good choice. It took us 4 hours car-to-car, moving verrry slowly. It's about as difficult as a Blarney, maybe a little easier, so I don't see why not.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?67168-Arscenic

Be sure to use good form by fixing your 200 footer at the top, then go back and retrieve it after the canyon.

And when you get home, use good form by posting a trip report to Bogley. :cool2: :mrgreen: :2thumbs:

-Bob

Any problem finding a snow-free way back up to the top?

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Any problem finding a snow-free way back up to the top?

There was a little snow here and there, but not enough to cause any difficulty on the exit. I don't remember that slope having characteristics that tend to collect snow. It is wide and mostly covered with dirt making passage easy, if my memory serves.

The Slideanide/K9 exit is clean steep-ish sandstone, and would be treacherous in the snow. If I were to do any of the three in the winter I'd plan on the Arscenic exit, unless I knew the Slide/K9 exit was completely snow-free to the top.

(explaining for other readers, I'm pretty sure you already know, Sir Tom)

[ratagonia]

(explaining for other readers, I'm pretty sure you already know, Sir Tom)

(Actually, I don't. Those canyons are not really in my rotation, and I usually just do Constricht9 when I am out there... and I have not been out that way in winter. As that great canyoneer of olde Tip O'Neil said: "all canyoneering conditions are local".)

( :moses: )

[Iceaxe]

Any problem finding a snow-free way back up to the top?

Tom

No, it's really simple to find an easy way back to the top, even if a lot of snow is on the ground.

The Poison Spring canyons are great winter canyons. But I have encountered knee deep wading a couple of times so as always, go prepared for anything.

[getlivingfit]

Arscenic is easy in the winter, so a good choice. It took us 4 hours car-to-car, moving verrry slowly. It's about as difficult as a Blarney, maybe a little easier, so I don't see why not.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?67168-Arscenic

Be sure to use good form by fixing your 200 footer at the top, then go back and retrieve it after the canyon.

And when you get home, use good form by posting a trip report to Bogley. :cool2: :mrgreen: :2thumbs:

-Bob



Thanks Tom, bob and ice ax and everyone else. I really appreciate your advice. I think we will plan both Arscenic and Leprechans. (not the r rated one) We will do the one that seams best once we see the conditions out there. It is hard to imagine snow there but I know there probably will be some. THANKS!!!!

[ratagonia]

I think we will plan both Arscenic and Leprechauns. (not the r rated one)


R-rated one?

I suppose if one is over 250 lbs, an R rating might be appropriate for Middle Lep. I see Shane gives it an "R", but I take that as being from the *old* system. It is not a SLOT-R, the more modern system... unless Shane still thinks it is???

These are all *G* rated canyons, perhaps PG at the most.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Middle Leprechaun is a big step up from some of the other canyons in the area, which is why I gave it an R. My ratings are clearly detailed on my website. The R just means you could encounter difficulties beyond the typical rap-n-swim kiddie canyon. If my ratings contained a PG I would have given it a PG, but they don't. My ratings are very simple and just meant to help guide you to a canyon that you might be interested in. I expect you to read my route description before descending the canyon to understand any and all difficulties.

As for middle Leprechaun I added the R as a warning after several large boned canyoneers became trapped and required rescue because the canyon was too narrow. As with most things in canyoneering what is extremely difficult for one person might go totally unnoticed by another with a different skill set.

In regards to middle Leprechaun my beta says to do the east fork first, which will allow you to easily check out the most difficult section of middle before committing. The Irish Canyons are often the first really skinny canyons many novice do so I like to error on the safe side.

the best I can tell the Slot-R is a rating system Tom proposed that has never caught on as none of the major beta suppliers use it.

[ratagonia]

the best I can tell the Slot-R is a rating system Tom proposed that has never caught on as none of the major beta suppliers use it.

Not caught on... YET!

:moses:

[getlivingfit]

Middle Leprechaun is a big step up from some of the other canyons in the area, which is why I gave it an R. My ratings are clearly detailed on my website. The R just means you could encounter difficulties beyond the typical rap-n-swim kiddie canyon. If my ratings contained a PG I would have given it a PG, but they don't. My ratings are very simple and just meant to help guide you to a canyon that you might be interested in. I expect you to read my route description before descending the canyon to understand any and all difficulties.

As for middle Leprechaun I added the R as a warning after several large boned canyoneers became trapped and required rescue because the canyon was too narrow. As with most things in canyoneering what is extremely difficult for one person might go totally unnoticed by another with a different skill set.

In regards to middle Leprechaun my beta says to do the east fork first, which will allow you to easily check out the most difficult section of middle before committing. The Irish Canyons are often the first really skinny canyons many novice do so I like to error on the safe side.

the best I can tell the Slot-R is a rating system Tom proposed that has never caught on as none of the major beta suppliers use it.

I really really appreciate the info I get from both your guys websites. You guys are the seriously so great for supplying info to us! I have loved using info from all sights. I print them all and use them all in the canyons. Life savers! I also really really appreciate your activity on this forum. It is always nice to get advice from the experts. Also it let's me feel like I am rubbing shoulders with the GREATS!

I am glad to know you both agree that middle leprechaun is basic. I thought we would stay away from it just because I am new to Winter canyons and have no clue what to expect. I did think the R meant it had some risky exposure or something that we might slip on ice and fall to our deaths or something. So I am glad you cleared that up. We don't have any big boned in the group, so maybe it is an option.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!! You guys are rad!

[getlivingfit]

No, it's really simple to find an easy way back to the top, even if a lot of snow is on the ground.

The Poison Spring canyons are great winter canyons. But I have encountered knee deep wading a couple of times so as always, go prepared for anything.

ICEAXE do you think if two people in our group don't have wet suits, They would be fine to layer up and just pack dry clothes to change into after the pools? I am having a hard time imagining the winter conditions.

[Iceaxe]

I have never used a wetsuit in any of the Poison Spring or Irish canyons, and I have done them when temps were 20 degrees below freezing. If you encounter water it is very short. We just strip down to our underwear, run through the section and get dressed. Yeah, it's cold, but only for a couple of minutes. I always wear quick dry clothing and sometimes I don't even bother to strip all the way down. I just keep my coat and shirt dry and blast through, putting my dry clothes back on once through the water. My pants walk dry in a few minutes, somethings they just freeze and the water flakes off as ice. As long as I can keep my core temp up I have no issues, but that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

[getlivingfit]

Thanks iceax. Last and final question (this trip :) Is 60 meter rope ok to do the 1 rapells option. It is 4 ft short of 200 ft. I have repelled off the line once before which would be fine if it's only a little drop and even / safe landing surface. :)

I am hoping to not need the full 200 ft.
I really love your advice!

[Iceaxe]

In my beta 60 meter = 200' rope. I use them interchangeably, if the extra 4' made a difference I'd warn you.

And on that note, it's a good idea to occasionally measure your ropes as they often shrink... and by that I mean shrink a lot, 15% shrinkage is not unheard of. That means your 200' rope might only be 170' after a year or two.

Many new ropes will often be a least 5% longer than advertise when you buy them just for this reason. I like to use Tom's rope's (CanyoneeringUSA (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/)) and all I've received from him have always been a little extra long, but maybe he just likes me better than the rest of you.

[getlivingfit]

In my beta 60 meter = 200' rope. I use them interchangeably, if the extra 4' made a difference I'd warn you.

And on that note, it's a good idea to occasionally measure your ropes as they often shrink... and by that I mean shrink a lot, 15% shrinkage is not unheard of. That means your 200' rope might only be 170' after a year or two.

Many new ropes will often be a least 5% longer than advertise when you buy them just for this reason. I like to use Tom's rope's (CanyoneeringUSA (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/)) and all I've received from him have always been a little extra long, but maybe he just likes me better than the rest of you.


THANKS ICEAXE!!!!!!