Need help deciding on a descender

[Swift One]

Me and my friends do alot of camping and rappelling on cliffs in southern Indiana. We are also planning on making a trip to Utah in 2016 for some canyoneering (Coyote Gulch). That being said I have alot of experience with rappelling but it has come mainly from the tactical world where the "rescue 8" and 11 or 12mm line is the norm. I do have experience in climbing (top roping only) and am pretty well versed in knots, rope work, and anchor points.

My last backpacking/ rappelling trip got me to thinking about going lighter. Being interested in trying some canyoneering, I have discovered the type of smaller/ lighter rope and special desending devices that canyoneers use. Through much research, we have decided we want to try the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm line. We are going to go with the BD ATC-XP for dry conditions. However, we do a few waterfalls in Southern Indiana and from what I have read, the ATC-XP is not to be used with wet/ dirtry line. So, we need an additional descender for those conditions.

I think it's pretty much a no brainer for my girlfriend's weight and 9.2mm line, that the Petzle Pirahna will do fine. However, I am around 230 and I have heard the Pirahna is not going to cut it for me. I have looked at the ATS real hard, but some recent research via the internet has led me to wonder if the 9.2mm line is going to be too much for the ATS. I am also led to wonder with my weight if I can use the Pirahna successfully with 9.2mm line.

I would like some advice from you guys that have used these devices (especially the heavier guys). Thanks.

[deagol]

I am not super heavy, but this thing is very nice anyway
http://www.canyonwerks.com/critr-rappel-device/

[hank moon]

Second the recommendation for the CRITR (reviewed HERE (http://canyoncollective.com/threads/new-critr-rappel-device.19053/page-14#post-86383)).

Getting the right amount of friction with an ATC can be tricky. For general canyoneering, I would not recommend using an ATC, especially at 230 lb. No reason not to use a "real" canyon rappel device, in dry or wet conditions. CRITR will do better than Pirana for your weight. Girlfriend sounds lighter? Pirana could work well for her if she's "lighter enough," but CRITR is a better device overall.

[french_de]

Me and my friends do alot of camping and rappelling on cliffs in southern Indiana. We are also planning on making a trip to Utah in 2016 for some canyoneering (Coyote Gulch). That being said I have alot of experience with rappelling but it has come mainly from the tactical world where the "rescue 8" and 11 or 12mm line is the norm. I do have experience in climbing (top roping only) and am pretty well versed in knots, rope work, and anchor points.

My last backpacking/ rappelling trip got me to thinking about going lighter. Being interested in trying some canyoneering, I have discovered the type of smaller/ lighter rope and special desending devices that canyoneers use. Through much research, we have decided we want to try the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm line. We are going to go with the BD ATC-XP for dry conditions. However, we do a few waterfalls in Southern Indiana and from what I have read, the ATC-XP is not to be used with wet/ dirtry line. So, we need an additional descender for those conditions.

I think it's pretty much a no brainer for my girlfriend's weight and 9.2mm line, that the Petzle Pirahna will do fine. However, I am around 230 and I have heard the Pirahna is not going to cut it for me. I have looked at the ATS real hard, but some recent research via the internet has led me to wonder if the 9.2mm line is going to be too much for the ATS. I am also led to wonder with my weight if I can use the Pirahna successfully with 9.2mm line.

I would like some advice from you guys that have used these devices (especially the heavier guys). Thanks.

I am about 210 and usually carry a pretty heavy pack. For the last 10 years I have always been searching for that better rappel device - never completely satisfied . Started with the ATC xp, graduated to the Pirana, tried the Totem for a awhile, really liked the ATS but am now using the CRITR. Given my weight and friction issues and the various types of canyons, wet and dry, the CRITR hands down is the best device for me so far. Until something better comes along .......

[Kuya]

CRITR!!!!!

[harness man]

Thanks everyone!

77027

You can find the CRITR at http://canyonwerks.com
Best,
Todd and Desi

[Rob L]

Must....resist....temptation....to ....post....about....rope....twist....

Resist......resist....

Oh, too darn late.

Todd, can you design a device that has the CRITR's attributes but on a non-twisting device like a DMM Bug?

(Note to OP: like others, I'm actually very happy about the CRITR for its safety features and ease of use in adding or reducing friction)

[Swift One]

Wow. You guys really like that critr. I will look more into that. I'm glad I registered here. I have vast experience with rappelling into windows and out of them with another person attached to you. Also off of cliffs. But it's all with heavier line. I am really wanting to go lighter but want to get the right stuff the first time. I like that you can adjust your friction while on the rappell with the critr.

Thanks for the intell on the ATC-xp. I have a lot of rappelling experience with the original ATC, but with 11mm static. So, that is good to know with the skinnier line and the ATC-XP.

A question about the critr. Is it thicker than the ATS? I have heard that heavy use of the ATS results in a short life because it is thin.

[hikster11]

CRITR and Imlay Canyon Fire rope

[ratagonia]

CRITR and Imlay Canyon Fire rope

At the claimed weight, the Original Poster would do better with the Canyonero. Sounds like he is a fire fighter, and a big guy, so carrying a bit of extra rope weight will not be a great strain for him.

I think the rope path of the CRITR is better designed, resulting in a better wear pattern than the ATS.

The DMM BUG is an ATC knock-off. Being a designer type, I think the original designer and product should be recognized, rather than the knock-off version, however beloved.

Some Info on using the ATC-XP here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling/

Welcome to the sport Swift One!

Tom

[mzamp]

I like the CRITR and ATS equally well. I have not tried the piranah and my totem is collecting dust (I should give it a try at least). Like Tom says, the CRITR seems to have a better wear pattern than the ATS. However, I did come across a slight issue with the CRITTR that everyone should be aware of so it can be avoided. I want to re-create it on video, but have not had the chance. So for now I will just try and explain.

A few weeks ago in Tatahatso canyon I was leading one of the raps that had an awkward start. (Yea, okay almost all of them in Tatahatso are awkward :-) ). Anyway, the rap required you to lower yourself over a chockstone in order to weight the anchor. There wasn't much in the way of handholds or footholds being undercut so I used the webbing as a handline and lowered myself right over the rap ring and biner block. Once weighted I started lowering myself, but the foot of the CRIT had caught the biner that was being used for the block. This resulted in the block moving/coming down with me as I rapped, moving it away from the ring, thereby shorthening the length of rope we had played out (for every 2 feet 1 rapped, the rope would have been 1 foot shorter).

I tried to slide the biner off of the foot of the CRITR but as you can see the legs are much longer than that of an ATS. So I tied off (BTW - which is very easy on the CRITR) to have both hands to work with. The problem was that since I was free hanging, I couldn't get much purchase on the walls to lift myself up to free the biner. Luckily I notice right away, so I wasn't too far from the anchor webbing and was able to grab that to slightly unweight the rope and release the biner.


I hope to get a video of this soon, or at least maybe find out it was a fluke and not easy to recreate.

[deagol]

... my totem is collecting dust ....

+1.....



.....the foot of the CRIT had caught the biner that was being used for the block. .....

Yeah, I could see that happening. I guess you just need to be careful and keep it clear of catching. The flip side is that those nice big legs make wrapping the rope so easy.

RE rope twist: it is a lot better than my old Totem in standard mode, throttle mode might be a tad better. I still like the Totem, but never use it anymore...

[Swift One]

At the claimed weight, the Original Poster would do better with the Canyonero. Sounds like he is a fire fighter, and a big guy, so carrying a bit of extra rope weight will not be a great strain for him.

I think the rope path of the CRITR is better designed, resulting in a better wear pattern than the ATS.

The DMM BUG is an ATC knock-off. Being a designer type, I think the original designer and product should be recognized, rather than the knock-off version, however beloved.

Some Info on using the ATC-XP here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling/

Welcome to the sport Swift One!

Tom


From what I have read, I am under the impression that the 8mm ropes are not going to be that good for me becuase of my weight. Am I wrong about that? I have also read that the 9.2 is a little more longer lasting that the 8mm.

[ratagonia]

A few weeks ago in Tatahatso canyon I was leading one of the raps that had an awkward start. (Yea, okay almost all of them in Tatahatso are awkward :-) ). Anyway, the rap required you to lower yourself over a chockstone in order to weight the anchor. There wasn't much in the way of handholds or footholds being undercut so I used the webbing as a handline and lowered myself right over the rap ring and biner block. Once weighted I started lowering myself, but the foot of the CRIT had caught the biner that was being used for the block. This resulted in the block moving/coming down with me as I rapped, moving it away from the ring, thereby shorthening the length of rope we had played out (for every 2 feet 1 rapped, the rope would have been 1 foot shorter).

I tried to slide the biner off of the foot of the CRITR but as you can see the legs are much longer than that of an ATS. So I tied off (BTW - which is very easy on the CRITR) to have both hands to work with. The problem was that since I was free hanging, I couldn't get much purchase on the walls to lift myself up to free the biner. Luckily I notice right away, so I wasn't too far from the anchor webbing and was able to grab that to slightly unweight the rope and release the biner.


I hope to get a video of this soon, or at least maybe find out it was a fluke and not easy to recreate.

I had a similar problem with the ATS on awkward starts, but in these cases (3?, 5?) the left side foot caught on a little ledge and then rotated the device. Was devilish getting it off the ledge without purchase.

Also of note, with the ATS or Pirana or CRITR, if you are using a setting beyond the "0" setting, be sure to check that it is still set up correctly after your awkward downclimb onto the rope. Had a young lady be surprised in Heaps (last rappel in the canyon) to find not enough friction on her Pirana (first canyon using it), and running out of hand 20 feet from the ground. Fell that last 20 feet, thankfully into a pool of water. Not a good setup for the final rappel sequence, which she was already anxious about. (We SHOULDA had a bottom belay on her there, yes.)

Tom

[qedcook]

At the claimed weight, the Original Poster would do better with the Canyonero. Sounds like he is a fire fighter, and a big guy, so carrying a bit of extra rope weight will not be a great strain for him.

I think the rope path of the CRITR is better designed, resulting in a better wear pattern than the ATS.

The DMM BUG is an ATC knock-off. Being a designer type, I think the original designer and product should be recognized, rather than the knock-off version, however beloved.

Some Info on using the ATC-XP here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling/

Welcome to the sport Swift One!

Tom

Politely disagree. The canyonero has too much friction for anyone.

[TommyBoy]

Politely disagree. The canyonero has too much friction for anyone.

Really depends on the rap, I clock in at 175 without the gear and in most situations I've found the canyonero to be high on the friction side, but not so much that I couldn't manage. There have been a few times, ie C canyons with higher flow, where even with the canyonero I felt like I could have used a little more friction. While its not for everyone it does have its place.

[hank moon]

Really depends on the rap, I clock in at 175 without the gear and in most situations I've found the canyonero to be high on the friction side, but not so much that I couldn't manage. There have been a few times, ie C canyons with higher flow, where even with the canyonero I felt like I could have used a little more friction. While its not for everyone it does have its place.

Good point, TB. Would be interesting to measure how the difference between one's weight (or effective load on the rope) on a rap when it's dry, and when it's under a pounding waterfall.

Maybe a field trip to one of those Frenchy artificial canyons is in order?

re: Canyonero friction. I weight 165 or so dry and naked, and have done raps up to 300' on canyonero w/o problem. It's all about judging rope type, environmental conditions, choice of rap device and its settings, and so on.

To say that a rope has "too much friction" without giving any parameters is not meaningful.

[Brian in SLC]

I'm 100 kilos plus, and, I mostly rappel on any rope with an ATC-XP type device (mainly a reverso 3 or 4 nowadays). Easy to rig enough friction, BUT, I usually rappel double strand.

Add one or two carabiners next to the main rappel carabiner for initially more friction on an ATC. Easy and smooth and doesn't twist the rope. You can add more friction by adding a biner on a leg loop and above the device too. Z rig.

Most of my rappelling is double strand on a climbing rope, down to 7.5mm (my twins) but mainly a 8.9 to 9.4mm dynamic rope. ATC is smooth... I use an ATC type device on my BW canyon pros at 8mm. Again, usually double strand. I really think unless you're rigging for a contingency lower, or, have to use a thin diameter pull cord, rappelling single strand from a biner block or knot block just seems silly to me. Plus, less chance of damaging your ropes with double strand rappelling too.

I use an ATS (also have a Pirana as a loaner) as my main wet canyon descender. Easy to add friction. I use the Sterling canyon rope(s) mostly.

[ratagonia]

Politely disagree. The canyonero has too much friction for anyone.

It depends on what device you use.

T

[Slot Machine]

A Tom paraphrase-ism: "EVERY canyoneer should be able to adjust friction as needed to safely descend ANY diameter of rope."

Not picking a fight or anything, but I'm a little bit surprised at the 9.2 recommendation. (I guess if you sell them you get a pass.)

Big men should adjust to skinny ropes and not ask little folks to adjust to a fat ropes. A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time. There are always options for going slower, but not always options for going faster.

IMO the only time a 9.2 should be used is in rope-eating canyons, and is a great rope for that. Otherwise, the 8.3 Canyon Fire is the way to go.

----

As for ATC's, there is a difference between the ATC-XP and the ATC-XP Guide. For reasons I can't explain, the guide version doesn't hop along the rope as it feeds. It is buttery smooth and worth the extra $10. I'm on my third ATC-XP Guide and I love it. Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC. I've even heard of people using three biners when extra nervous.

Piranas are pretty cool too, but they leave aluminum residue all over everything/everyone. Many folks don't appreciate their ropes and hands turning black. I only use mine in very water intensive canyons, because it is difficult to lose when unclipping.

[ratagonia]

A Tom paraphrase-ism: "EVERY canyoneer should be able to adjust friction as needed to safely descend ANY diameter of rope."

Not picking a fight or anything, but I'm a little bit surprised at the 9.2 recommendation.

Big men should adjust to skinny ropes and not ask little folks to adjust to a fat ropes. A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time. There are always options for going slower, but not always options for going faster.

IMO the only time a 9.2 should be used is in rope-eating canyons, and is a great rope for that. Otherwise, the 8.3 Canyon Fire is the way to go.

----

As for ATC's, there is a difference between the ATC-XP and the ATC-XP Guide. For reasons I can't explain, the guide version doesn't hop along the rope as it feeds. It is buttery smooth and worth the extra $10. I'm on my third ATC-XP Guide and I love it. Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC. I've even heard of people using three biners when extra nervous.

Piranas are pretty cool too, but they leave aluminum residue all over everything/everyone. Many folks don't appreciate their ropes and hands turning black. I only use mine in very water intensive canyons, because it is difficult to lose when unclipping.

Putting more weight on the rope puts more cutting power on it where it crosses the edge of the rock. Certainly careful rigging and smooth rappelling make a huge difference in how much you beat up your ropes in use, but a person's skin-in weight makes a big difference too.

Since the individual involved appears to be quite a strong rope-carrier, a larger, heavier, more durable rope is a good choice for him. And yes, his lighter-weight companions should be able to adjust their friction to safely descend any diameter of rope.

"Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC." Hmmm. 'should' is a word of moral force, as in "The United States of America should not torture". I prefer a more nuanced morality than absolute rules, though perhaps I would agree with the statement: "Big Fellas should know how to set up their ATC in many ways, including using two biners under it" and perhaps "people should rappel so they have sufficient control and do not fall to the ground and die".

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling/

Tom

[hank moon]

A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time.

Not with the right device, correctly rigged for bodyweight. I can see that with an ATC-XP guide or really, most any fixed-friction device, it could be a problem. :)

[Swift One]

OK. Lots of good intell here. So far, you guys have convinced me to try out the CRITR. That is going to happen. I might also see if my girlfriend wants to go with it also.

Now, this discussion has certainly got me thinking about my rope choice. I come from a world where I am humping 150' of 11mm static line on the hiking trails and cliffs. And my 235lbs is not of the couch potato version. I am what folks would refer to as "Corn Fed Strong", LOL. My main reason for going with the 9.2 is because I have read where the 8.3 get chewed up pretty good in canyons. I have never done canyons in the deserts of the SW, only some falls and cliffs here in southern Indiana, so I really don't know what sharp edges entail. Up here, we have a lot of grass and moss that grows on the cliff edges so we are pretty good. And we also use the fire house sheath technique in rappels where we will be doing it more than one time.

The second reason why I opted for the 9.2 is because I have read in some sites where the 8.3 just doesn't work that well for the heavier guys. Having a better understanding at how these Canyoneering specific descenders operate, I can see how more turns on the horns will create more friction. So, is a guy like me going to fair well with rope smaller than 9mm? Are ropes smaller than 9mm going to get chewed up easier in normal rappelling situations? Do I need to take another look at the 8.3 Canyon Fire Rope?

[Slot Machine]

*all in a friendly tone*


Since the individual involved appears to be quite a strong rope-carrier, a larger, heavier, more durable rope is a good choice for him. And yes, his lighter-weight companions should be able to adjust their friction to safely descend any diameter of rope.

*looks into my crystal ball*

His lighter weight companions will complain. He will eventually gravitate to an 8.3 becuse it is lighter, is very tough, and works great. Even big guys know that it is more fun to carry a lighter rope. Then his 9.2 will sit in the garage and collect dust. Ask @Kuya (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=21873), who used to weigh 230lbs. Not that he will say anything bad, but I bet that he has a 9.2 that he will sell for cheap. :haha:


"Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC." Hmmm. 'should' is a word of moral force, as in "The United States of America should not torture". I prefer a more nuanced morality than absolute rules, though perhaps I would agree with the statement: "Big Fellas should know how to set up their ATC in many ways, including using two biners under it" and perhaps "people should rappel so they have sufficient control and do not fall to the ground and die".

Without question, you are the better technical writer. :gents:


Not with the right device, correctly rigged for bodyweight. I can see that with an ATC-XP guide it would be a problem. :)

The 100lb person in question is my wife, who uses a plain-jane slicker-than-snot ATC. I watched her rap down a wet 200 foot 9.2 one time. Naps were taken. Days passed. Seasons changed...

99% of the time the regular old ATC works great for her. 99% of the time we are rapping on 8.0 or 8.3. So, there is about a 99% chance that you won't get her to switch descending devices. And if you think she is going to haul along a BBQ grill... I mean Totem... just in case... :roflol:

[Kuya]

Ask @Kuya (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=21873), who used to weigh 230lbs. Not that he will say anything bad, but I bet that he has a 9.2 that he will sell for cheap. :haha:

haha!!:roflol: Woah now, I was only 215 lbs! what is this 230 buisness!? hahaha ;) :cool2:

For the record. I love 9.2mm rope! :) But I love love my canyon fire ropes! What is the difference you ask? well.... i dislike the color of purple ropes! The canyon fire comes in better colors!

[Slot Machine]

haha!!:roflol: Woah now, I was only 215 lbs! what is this 230 buisness!? hahaha ;) :cool2:

*feels bad for one split-second, then says...*

With all the toys on your Swiss-Army harness you were EASILY 265. You are very relevant to this conversation! :haha::lol8::haha::lol8:

[harness man]

Hey SwiftOne!
The CRITR rappel device was built especially to provide plenty of friction for big people on skinny ropes.
Once you figure out the friction settings on the CRITR, controlling your descent on all the small diameter canyon ropes is pretty easy.
The wear and tear on the rope from higher body weight (over edges, etc.) is another matter, as others have discussed here, and depends a LOT on the specific canyons and the experience of the folks in them.
Tom is not just selling rope but providing good counsel (he makes both a 9mm and the 8.3mm)
I think there is a pretty handy and relevant "rope selection guide" on his Imlay website... can you give us a link, Tom?

[deagol]

I should add something to this after reading additional posts RE: fatter rope. I took my sister canyoneering and she only weighs about 95 pounds and used an old Totem and did not seem to have any problems rapping on a 9MM or 9.2 MM. I think my 200' is 9MM and my 120' is 9.2 MM.

[hank moon]

The 100lb person in question is my wife, who uses a plain-jane slicker-than-snot ATC. I watched her rap down a wet 200 foot 9.2 one time. Naps were taken. Days passed. Seasons changed...

Post updated to include plain jane ATC and other fixed friction devices. Point is that the rope is not the problem in the case you described, device choice is (or perhaps more accurately, the combination of rope, device, and bodyweight).

On the plus side of your experience, canyon naps can be very restorative. Heaps crossroads comes to mind as a lovely nap spot on a sunny day...

[hank moon]

I should add something to this after reading additional posts RE: fatter rope. I took my sister canyoneering and she only weighs about 95 pounds and used an old Totem and did not seem to have any problems rapping on a 9MM or 9.2 MM. I think my 200' is 9MM and my 120' is 9.2 MM.

What kind of rope? New or old? Stiff or supple? Wet, dry, dirty, fuzzy, etc.

Many factors have an impact on friction

[ratagonia]

A Tom paraphrase-ism: "EVERY canyoneer should be able to adjust friction as needed to safely descend ANY diameter of rope."

Not picking a fight or anything, but I'm a little bit surprised at the 9.2 recommendation. (I guess if you sell them you get a pass.)

Big men should adjust to skinny ropes and not ask little folks to adjust to a fat ropes. A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time. There are always options for going slower, but not always options for going faster.

IMO the only time a 9.2 should be used is in rope-eating canyons, and is a great rope for that. Otherwise, the 8.3 Canyon Fire is the way to go.

----

As for ATC's, there is a difference between the ATC-XP and the ATC-XP Guide. For reasons I can't explain, the guide version doesn't hop along the rope as it feeds. It is buttery smooth and worth the extra $10. I'm on my third ATC-XP Guide and I love it. Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC. I've even heard of people using three biners when extra nervous.

Piranas are pretty cool too, but they leave aluminum residue all over everything/everyone. Many folks don't appreciate their ropes and hands turning black. I only use mine in very water intensive canyons, because it is difficult to lose when unclipping.

There are many factors that work into the equation.

A better solution for him might be to use Canyon Fires, and have himself rappel double-strand.

There's more than one way to skin a cat... or as Mr. Cabe would say: "so many cats, so few recipes!"

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Point is that the rope is not the problem in the case you described, device choice is.

The solution to having a too fat girlfriend is:

A. Walk more slowly so that she can catch her breath.
B. Buy her liposuction for Christmas. And Valentine's day.
C. Pray that she suddenly starts eating less.
D. Find a less fat girlfriend.

My way of compensating for a too-fat rope is to not start the day with a too-fat rope. I will actually intervene with people that try to bring fat ropes or climbing ropes in my groups (rope snob, that's me!), and try to switch them out with my own. It is a testament to the superiority of the Canyon Fire (pat yourself on the back Tom, best rope ever, seriously). You buy a fat rope because you are drunk and have self esteem issues and are lonely.

... I mean, you buy a fat rope for canyons that require fat ropes. And on those days you get creative with your choice of descender. Being creative on other days usually means that you are carrying extra weight for no good reason.

But yes, there are many excessively nerdy ways to skin that fat cat. :mrgreen: :nod:

[hikster11]

My personal preference is the Canyon Fire. When I started canyoneering I thought I want the strongest rope I could get. I got PMI 11 static rope. After a few canyoneering trips with it I did not like it. It was huge, heavy and doubled its weight when wet. I then got a Canyonero 9.2. This is a great rope and very robust but it does not pack down as small as the Canyon Fire. when I have a little pack so my total weight is not over 170 I have a little to much resistance on ATC. I must say that this is a great rope though. I have a 100ft Canyonero that seen close to a 1000 rappels and is in good shape. I also have a Sterling C4 another good rope very soft and robust. It is a little bouncy or stretchy on a 200 ft rappel. It packs up small and doesn't gain much weight when wet. I like the Canyon Fire the best out of any rope I have used. It is small,robust and plenty strong for canyoneering. It packs up the smallest of the ropes I have. I have use for canyoneering an ATC, ATC-XP, ATS, Pirana, and CRITR. I like the CRITR the best.

[Swift One]

OK. So there is a lot of supporters in the Canyon Fore 8.3 crowd- even for guys my weight. Would you say that the Canyon Fire is a rope that can get good life with a lot of use or is it better suited for a lighter use line?

[ratagonia]

OK. So there is a lot of supporters in the Canyon Fore 8.3 crowd- even for guys my weight. Would you say that the Canyon Fire is a rope that can get good life with a lot of use or is it better suited for a lighter use line?

Canyon Fire outsells Canyonero about 2:1.

My theory is that ropes die MOSTLY when we make rigging and/or rappelling mistakes that result is the rope sliding or bouncing across a hard edge and getting a coreshot (damage to the sheath). I am among the many people who took a long time to figure out how not to do this. Once your technique is good, and the technique of all your companions, you are likely to be able to ruin only a rope or two a year.

At a heavier weight, your rope will be less tolerant of imperfect rigging.

If you do go Canyon Fire, please rappel double strand when it makes sense. Unfortunately, it is usually the longer rappels that frak up the rope more, the ones you would be least likely to double strand.

It makes more sense to adjust the rappel device to the rope, than to adjust the rope to the device. Device = 40$. Rope = a whole lot more. So if the problem is that your 100 lb companion is unable to get down the rope with her ATC-XP, the solution is NOT (necessarily) to switch to a smaller rope; a better solution is to have her get a Pirana.

Tom

[oldno7]

Swift One
I would STRONGLY recommend you use a 9.2mm rope to get started. Knowing what device will work for you, is something only you can figure out. There are many devices to use, the key here is finding one that suits YOU. Starting on a skinny rope is fine for skinny boys but I can only strongly advise you, not to. Trying to make an argument on the weight difference of a rope, is ridiculous, in the grand scheme of things it isn't that much. A good group leader would bring along the right rope for the job, not a rope based on a popularity contest. If he deems weight an issue, transfer a water bottle out of rope carriers pack, it's really that easy. Weight of rope is not an issue, safety while on that rope is. No matter how cool one deems himself, cool will get you dead! Friction will get you down safely.
Only those who have no idea how to rig a rope properly for differing weights/heights/diameters of rope, etc, would recommend you start on a 8mm line. I strongly suggest you start with a 9mm and work your way down as your skills and knowledge advance.
don't have your first canyon experience end in a headline---
"He was an experienced outdoorsman" we don't know why he went SPLAT.

[darhawk]

I agree that a 9.2 is best for beginners, not only for yourself but for others you might bring along. More friction aids learning by slowing things down. More friction builds confidence for folks who might be a little worried. Thicker ropes mean that I can pay more attention to the hundreds of other details about rigging and rope placement without being as preoccupied by concerns for appropriate amounts of friction on a rap device. I often bring along newbies. They bring low-friction rappel devices because they are cheaper and more well-known. I OK this choice beforehand because my rope works for anything anyone brings without extra worry on my part. If we are in a bit of a hurry, I don't have to adjust the rope after every rappel because a 9.2 is stronger and more durable, especially my dual sheath. My 9.2 lasts and lasts and lasts and is more forgiving of my mistakes. Do yourself a favor and start with a 9.2 and enjoy learning about the many other aspects of rappelling and canyoneering without as many concerns for babying your rope or rope-rappel device interaction..

[Slot Machine]

OK. So there is a lot of supporters in the Canyon Fore 8.3 crowd- even for guys my weight. Would you say that the Canyon Fire is a rope that can get good life with a lot of use or is it better suited for a lighter use line?

You'll get a good long life out of a Canyon Fire unless you do something careless with it. Most of the wear spots on my CF ropes come from pulling down biner blocks (where a knot drags along the stone), not from sharp edges or corn-fed canyoneer issues. I've had to trim the ends off a couple of them, but never had one 'die', where there is a coreshot in the middle of the length.

They aren't as tough as PMI ropes, but certainly tough enough for most canyons.


cool will get you dead!

:roll:

Correction: Misusing any equipment you buy could 'get you dead'. No matter which rope/device you choose, consider getting some training from an experienced canyoneer. You can learn more in an hour with an instructor than you can in a year on your own. I'm no instructor, but I've shown lots of folks how to rap on an 8.3 safely. Not a big deal.

Back the your original post... You're planning on doing Coyote Gulch. You don't need a special rope for that canyon. Are you planning on doing some other canyons down there?

[oldno7]

as an aside--If skinnier/lighter people don't know how to smoothly go down a 9mm rope,what makes them think they have any more talent than a heavier person not finding enough friction on a skinny rope?
A prudent new guy to canyoneering, would error on the side of caution, rather than error on the side of SPLAT!!

Falling to peer pressure and bad advice, is still FALLING!

[Slot Machine]

as an aside--If skinnier/lighter people don't know how to smoothly go down a 9mm rope,what makes them think they have any more talent than a heavier person not finding enough friction on a skinny rope?

Nothing should make them think they have more talent. Rappelling is 0% talent and 100% knowledge. Once you learn how to safely rap a skinny rope, you're set. Invest in some training. Don't try to compensate for lack of knowledge with a fat rope.

[oldno7]

The 100lb person in question is my wife, who uses a plain-jane slicker-than-snot ATC. I watched her rap down a wet 200 foot 9.2 one time. Naps were taken. Days passed. Seasons changed...



Sounds like she needs experience with a descender that is suited for her. Having too much friction can be as dangerous as too little.
Not knowing how to adjust friction up or down, with ones descender, is a lack of "good" training.
Having enough ego to suggest all should rap on one size rope with one style descender is self serving and a disservice to those inquiring where to get started in the sport.
Spending a day on a wall with many descenders and picking one that actually works for you, would seem like a good idea for a beginner. I have a couple dozen of every variety if someone in the Southern Utah area want's to try something out.
I apologize, in advance for speaking rationally.

Experience doesn't come from dying!

[Slot Machine]

As an aside, I'm pretty sure ladies should be discussing weather or not an extra 0.9mm really makes a difference. I think they would also argue that it's more about technique...

:lol8:

[Slot Machine]

Sounds like she needs experience with a descender that is suited for her. Having too much friction can be as dangerous as too little.
Not knowing how to adjust friction up or down, with ones descender, is a lack of "good" training.

She doesn't jump down the well of canyoneering gadgetry (the exclusive territory of dudes that don't get laid that much). She could give a rats ass about any new toys that come out. The ATC works great for her 99% of the time. She suffers the other 1% of the time. To suffer that 1% of the time is a combination of personal preference and apathy, not a lack of training or ability.


Having enough ego to suggest all should rap on one size rope with one style descender is self serving and a disservice to those inquiring where to get started in the sport.

This thread has nothing to do with ego, or being cool. (I'll try to be cool on some other thread)

I've tried lots of ropes and some are simply better than the others. Like hikester11, I have an 11mm PMI that I never use and regret buying. Note that I'm not screaming about how great the 8.0 is (and it IS great). That rope can be scary when new. I don't feel like the 8.3 is scary. Likewise, the Sterling CIV is not scary, and also superior to the 9.2.


Spending a day on a wall with many descenders and picking one that actually works for you, would seem like a good idea for a beginner. I have a couple dozen of every variety if someone in the Southern Utah area want's to try something out.

^^This^^ is a great idea. :2thumbs:

You say you have a couple dozen descenders?? The chicks must dig that. :haha:

:duel:

[Skeeter]

I own both ropes, canyonfire and canyonero. My weight without gear is about 165. I originally bought the canyonero thinking I would appreciate the added durability but soon after purchased the canyon fire. I'd say Tom's post about adjusting to a rope is spot on. The canyonfire is my preferred rope due to the fact that it packs down much nicer which in my opinion is a big deal. But, to say the canyonero has too much friction sounds more a matter of technique.

I've used a critr, pirana and act-xp all with good results. As with others after switching to a critr I have been sold ever since. I would say I prefer to rappel with friction, as you should. The critr has slightly more friction than what I would get out of a pirana. So as opposed to on the pirana using one of the legs the critr I just rap in zero mode which equates to less twist and the fact that I have plenty of friction left is nice. I think any good canyon descender should have adjustable friction on the fly that is why I would say a atc is a lousy thing to bring into a canyon. I have been with parties who use atc and I hear them "should I use two biners on this rap or with this rope" frankly I don't know why you would use one. If i'm climbing then sure atc is great. For me rappeling is about momentum and rappeling smooth, then having plenty of braking power, that's probably why my gloves last so long.

Tom probably knows best after all they are his ropes. Get the 9.2 you wont regret buying any imlay rope. And get a descender that is adjustable, my unbiased opinion would be critr for your weight and the fact that it does kick ass.

[hank moon]

Hi Swift One

This thread is a good intro to the interconnectedness of gear choices in canyoneering. What begins as a simple question about descender choice turns out to be not so simple.

To sum up, here are some plusses and minuses of the main variables under discussion:

Variable friction rappel device vs. fixed friction device:
+ ability to adjust device friction for different rope sizes, rope lengths, changing conditions, body weights, etc.
+ easier to lock-off the device (learn how to do this ASAP)
+ relatively "drop proof" as most have a system that keeps the device secured to its attachment carabiner while installing or removing the rope

- heavier
- more expensive
- horns that catch on stuff

Canyonero vs. Canyon Fire rope:
+ More durable and damage resistant
+ Generally offers more friction in rappel devices (device dependent)
+ More versatile

- heavier
- more expensive
- higher volume

Beginners will generally be better off with a thicker rope and a variable friction rappel device. I started my vertical journey (caving) using 11 mm rope and a brake bar rack that weighs over a pound. Glad I did, 'cuz I made a lot of lurchy, beginner-typical moves in the first year and versatility/variability really helps when you are starting out. Once you've gotten out there, had some varied experiences and lived to post about it, you will be in a better position to decide whether more specialized gear (i.e. smaller diameter rope, etc.) is right for you.

Good luck and let us know what you decide, eh?

hank

p.s. CRITR or ATS may not work well for a 100 lb person as the lowest friction setting is relatively high, compared to a Pirana. Not sure if that point came out clearly in this discussion, so there it is. Try before you buy is a good idea whenever possible.

[TommyBoy]

I think any good canyon descender should have adjustable friction on the fly that is why I would say a atc is a lousy thing to bring into a canyon. I have been with parties who use atc and I hear them "should I use two biners on this rap or with this rope" frankly I don't know why you would use one.


As a beginner yes its usually best to have something you can adjust on the fly, however while its not much of a difference the atc's are lighter, smaller, and cheaper so I usually take one in canyons where I know the drops are short and/or there aren't many of them.

[Skeeter]

As a beginner yes its usually best to have something you can adjust on the fly, however while its not much of a difference the atc's are lighter, smaller, and cheaper so I usually take one in canyons where I know the drops are short and/or there aren't many of them.

I think adjustable friction is a notable advantage not just for beginners. The ability to lock off is also not something just beneficial to beginners. It's about having the right tool for the task at hand which is not very predictable.

Though you find the atc to work better for certain canyons I don't think is really relevant to this thread, unless the thread was " What slue of descenders do you keep on hand to use for canyons you may have already done". Pirana probably weighs close to my atc-xp. Having to remove the device along with the rope to come off rap I would say would be the biggest downfall and why I don't quite see it fit for an all in one canyon device, just saying.

[TommyBoy]

I think adjustable friction is a notable advantage not just for beginners. The ability to lock off is also not something just beneficial to beginners. It's about having the right tool for the task at hand which is not very predictable.

Though you find the atc to work better for certain canyons I don't think is really relevant to this thread, unless the thread was " What slue of descenders do you keep on hand to use for canyons you may have already done". Pirana probably weighs close to my atc-xp. Having to remove the device along with the rope to come off rap I would say would be the biggest downfall and why I don't quite see it fit for an all in one canyon device, just saying.

I was just responding to your comment that "an atc is a lousy thing to take into a canyon....and no one should ever take them". Its not lousy it just has a more limited range than some of the other devices, but it does have its place which was all I was saying. The weight difference you're right is very small, but size wise its smaller and again its alot cheaper (half of what the others cost) which is why I said I use it in certain spots.

Oh and I didn't mean to imply that advanced canyoneers don't need variable friction (sorry I wasn't clear on that my bad) but there are ways to set up an atc typ device for variable friction so even then you're covered.

[Slot Machine]

The CRITR rappel device was built especially to provide plenty of friction for big people on skinny ropes.

Harness Man, all you have to do is post this video. The dang thing sells itself. :cool2:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWc0IjQiJs0

[Iceaxe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWc0IjQiJs0

[Swift One]

Ya, but, we are looking to lighten up anyways for cliffs back up this way. There is no reason why I need to be humping around 11-12mm line when I can do it with 8 or 9mm styles. The Coyote is our first time in a big canyon. I have some experience with the waterfalls up this way but nothing real canyon style like out there. Mostly sandstone and granite (Wisconsin) cliffs. Along with buildings of course.

[Swift One]

may[/B] not work well for a 100 lb person as the lowest friction setting is relatively high, compared to a Pirana. Not sure if that point came out clearly in this discussion, so there it is. Try before you buy is a good idea whenever possible. ]

Yes, I have decided on the critr for me and the Pirahna for her. LOL, the jury is out as far as the rope goes. I feel that I have enough rope experience to try the 8.3 but I do like the durability of the 9.2. I go on maybe 4 rappelling trips a year and practice rappelling maybe 10 times a year. I train on knots and rigging in my garage on an old piece of 11mm. Im not on the walls as frequent as you guys are. Hopefully that will help in the advice...and thanks for all the replies so far...

[qedcook]

It depends on what device you use.

T

Speaking just from experience, without any math behind it, any device I have ever used with a canyonero, even on a 200 foot rappel, still had WAY too much friction. The rope destroyed two carabiners and an ATC in one canyon alone.

[hikster11]

[QUOTE ]Yes, I have decided on the critr for me and the Pirahna for her. LOL, the jury is out as far as the rope goes. I feel that I have enough rope experience to try the 8.3 but I do like the durability of the 9.2. I go on maybe 4 rappelling trips a year and practice rappelling maybe 10 times a year. I train on knots and rigging in my garage on an old piece of 11mm. Im not on the walls as frequent as you guys are. Hopefully that will help in the advice...and thanks for all the replies so far...




The Canyonero is a good rope but with what you say your current experience is with ropes you will not be disappointed with the Canyon Fire. Im sure after a little practice with the CRITR you will love it.

[hikster11]

Speaking just from experience, without any math behind it, any device I have ever used with a canyonero, even on a 200 foot rappel, still had WAY too much friction. The rope destroyed two carabiners and an ATC in one canyon alone.
Could this have been because of a dirty rope? I have worn though a carabiner in one canyon from a dirty rope. I have also rappelled many times on my Canyonero with little to no wear at all.

[qedcook]

Could this have been because of a dirty rope? I have worn though a carabiner in one canyon from a dirty rope. I have also rappelled many times on my Canyonero with little to no wear at all.

No, in other canyons, both dry and wet, with the rope dirty and clean, the friction was too much.

[reflection]

Late to the Game; Swift Man

ROPE: If you plan to run "mostly" single strand then you may(?) wish to go with a 9mm rope. If you ride double strand though and pay attention to the rope and rap, then an 8.3 rope (even at your weight) should be more than sufficient. Packing size and weight become a "significant" issue if having to walk/trek more than a "short" distance.

Rap Device: If you come from the climbing community then an ATC style device (with various ways to add or decrease friction) is going to work in most circumstances. Double Stranding a 9mm rope through with an ATC is a challenge (too much friction) for some.

Commentators: Hidden in much of the discussion is the fact that the Pirana, CTR, often work better when single stranding. Not an issue though on short raps or other raps where high friction is not needed.

Water Canyons. Many/Most use devices like the Pirana,CTR when in water canyons so the device does not need to come off.

Options: Most active canyoneers have multiple devices and ropes. Some a use a mix of 8 and 9mm ropes and some have abandoned 9mm ropes and ride simply in the 8mm range.

Myself. I still use an ATC style device in dry canyons, find is so smooth and can adjust friction easily. I always use a Pirana past and now Critter in wet canyons. In my private group I always use/mostly use an 8.3 Canyon Fire or a Sterling 8mm line. If beginners come along, on some canyons I have the group pack a 9mm line. If beginners are single stranding (even if they have been taught options) they are frequently more at ease with a 9mm line.

I back up Hank, Brian and Slot Machine's anthems.. In 10 minutes (with the proper trainer) you could pick up the options as to how to safely use an ATC (style) device along with an 8mm (type) rope. It would benefit to also get guidance on using a Pirana or CTR. If the money is not an issue, you can easily get an ATC style, a Critter, an 8.3 Canyon Fire and a 9mm rope and then learn for yourself what you and others like. If you have a light party though, traveling in tandem with you it's best to train/practice before you get in the field. Because if A, mimics B (you) and you are going down a 9mm line double strand (in a comfortable mode) your partner if they try the same (may) get stuck in traffic (the ride) and not enjoy the game.

So much semantics and locked in styles. Find a tree, a wall, borrow someone's devices and ropes and walla, the wisdom will (at least should) flow (that is if you know all the various options to try). And remember a rope may twist much more when using a Pirana/Critter than when using an ATC "style; there are variations here of course. And there is much partisan banter between the lines. Mystery. What works for A, may not for B or C. Or what a person likes. Same conundrum. I accept that some like 9mm lines, others 8. I have no problem with that - unless I have to pack the 9mm line. (between the lines of discussion, the use patterns and preferences spill out) Happy Trails.

[Swift One]

Well, I just ordered a CRITR for my girlfriend for as one of her birthday presents. Early next year, when we start to get on the wall to train (it will be the garage first:haha:) I am going to try it out and see how I like it. After listening to everyone's experience, personal choices, and explanations of how the different styles and size canyon ropes work, I think we are going to give the Canyon Fire 8.3 a whirl. I know it will work for my girlfriend- I am going to get 150ft of it for her. I have enough rope experience to try it out when we get it and I am betting it going to work for me too. If not, then I will pick up some 9.2 for me. We are not on the walls or in canyons every weekend like a lot of you guys are. So, my rope is not going to get beat up as fast. On our cliffs back here, I take careful care in selection where the anchor is going to be and how the rope lays off of the cliff edge, so I am familiar with what a good set up is.

I want to thank everyone that helped me out on this thread. It really put me in the right direction with this lighter rope and the special gear that goes with it. Thanks again.....

[harness man]

Thanks for your order, Swift One! :mrgreen:
Let us know how your CRITR works out!
Remember that when your rope is BRAND NEW that it will be a bit "faster" until it has had a few rappels.
Plan for MORE friction in the beginning.
Best,
Todd and Desi

[Swift One]

Thanks for your order, Swift One! http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif
Let us know how your CRITR works out!
Remember that when your rope is BRAND NEW that it will be a bit "faster" until it has had a few rappels.
Plan for MORE friction in the beginning.
Best,
Todd and Desi
Will do. And if we like it, you can excpect a couple more to be ordered.

[hank moon]

Let us know how your CRITR works out!

X2

[taatmk]

Just saw this thread today. My two cents, for what its worth. I learned how to canyoneer with an ATC. I found it very useful as I got used to doing the sport. In low to moderate difficulty level of canyons, it worked well. As my skill and ability level increased, and as the difficultly level of the canyons also increased, I found the ATC to be less and less useful; I went to the ATS and found it to be to my liking. I used the ATS in descending Englestead, where the need for friction varied as the descent progressed, and I found the ATS to be very sufficient in that regard.

Nowadays, I seem to be doing more "wet" canyons found in visits to the Columbia River Gorge in Oregon; with wet ropes and varied length of rappels, I really do prefer the adjustability of the ATS. As for the thickness of ropes, we always carry a variety to suit the needs of the many.

While the CRITR looks interesting, the ATS serves me fine.

[harness man]

Hi Taatmk
We went through the same progression as you have, starting with ATC devices, then moved on to the ATS (which we liked much better! ).
No doubt: the ATS is a very fine piece of engineering.
The whole CRITR thing came about because we experienced some things with the ATS that (eventually) seemed less than ideal.
Desiree, at her weight, kept having trouble finding a "sweet spot" on the ATS that would run smooth (and not have the friction be too low).
I would also end up with "jack hammering" on the friction setting I was comfortable with.
The ATS has several options for choosing different friction levels BEFORE you start rappelling but adding friction AFTER the start is not secure: the "hyper horns" are just too small to hook the rope around and I had the rope jump off a couple of times which scared the -- out of me :eek2:!
Also we found that on some ropes, in some conditions the ATS would twist the rope up a lot.
With friends on the ATS all rapping right handed, we would end up with a BIG rats nest towards the bottom of the rappel.
In sandy canyons we found the ATS wore out REALLY fast.
The CRITR was created to try to address these and other issues with both the Pirana and ATS.
Did we succeed?
Mostly, I think.
Will EVERYBODY switch to the CRITR?
Probably not....sniff, sniff...
But there is SOMETHING, sort of intangible almost, about the security that the CRITR provides, that is very reassuring when you are hanging in space.
Try out the CRITR when you get the chance sometime, and let us know what you think.
Best :mrgreen:
Todd and Desiree

[Swift One]

Well, I tried he critr and the 8.3 canyon fire rope this afternoon in the garage. Initial testing proved to be very good. I had no problems rappelling with it. I absolutely love how light this 150' of rope is compared to my 150' of 11mm. Thanks to everyone for helping me out with the choices. looking forward to getting it on some real height so I can really see how it performs.

[harness man]

Happy New Year, Swift One!
here is a nice video Shane has posted on you tube of the big Englestead rappel using a CRITR
http://youtu.be/ABVY2X5gybE
Thanks for a great 2014 everyone!
Getting fired up for the new year
Best,
Todd and Desi

[Michael_WB]

I am willing to give the CRITR a try during our next Zion/Escalante trip in May/June.
FWIW I use an ATC for all belay/rappel purposes when for Alpine rock/ice climbing here in Europe or in S America, but have always used a pirana for canyoneering.

In conjunction with one/two leg loop carabiners, I've never had a friction management issue in the 30 or so canyon trips we've done in Utah (including Englestead, Imlay, Icebox, etc). My one complaint about the pirana is how quickly the soft alumin(i)um ;-) wears out!

[maarten.1975]

And I am planning as well on trying the CRITR during the May-June trip Michael describes in the post above. As they say, great minds think alike!
:naughty:

So far always used a Pirana, however it's quick wear and the short horns are for me the reason to check other devices. I expect long horns to be easier to use. And I wanna become more experienced with other descending devices as well, even though the 'technology' used in these descenders is more or less equal....

[Eastoahu]

Wanna buy my Totem???? Lol

[harness man]

Hang on to your TOTEM:mrgreen:
It is a great rigging tool!

[Eastoahu]

but i want an ATS D: lol