Using a caving harness for canyoneering

[maarten.1975]

Good evening everybody,

My current harnass is about to be replaced. Not a big deal, buy a new one, and I will. But recently I was introduced into caving and I was suprised by the simplicity but great functionality of the caving harnass. Something like this
76719


The harnass is closed with a big D-carabiner, one like this
76720

So now I'm wondering about how useable is a harnass like this for canyoneering?

I already found that caving harnasses are a no-go for climbing, because of a lower attachment point to the rope. That is said to make them unsafer in case you fall down (and slam upside down). But what about for canyoneering. Most of the time you'll be on tension with the rope.

Furthermore I'm wondering about the stability of a pirana if connected to this D-carabiner. Will the pirana-biner be unstable and slide sideways on the big D-carabiner? How does that influence rapelling? During that first caving trip :stud:(which I recently had and really enjoyed) I used a rack, which was no problem at all concerning stability.

Some other pro's and cons on how useable is this harnass for canyoneering.

PRO's

very small
light weight
simple to put on


CONs

maybe slightly less comfortable for very long rappels or many rappels in a row (don't know yet, not enough experience with it yet)
only 2 small side connectors for biners, slings, etc



Does anybody have experience with this? Any other points of view on what I came up with?

Thanks for any thoughts and feedback from your side!
grtz

[ratagonia]

Good evening everybody,

My current harnass is about to be replaced. Not a big deal, buy a new one, and I will. But recently I was introduced into caving and I was suprised by the simplicity but great functionality of the caving harnass. Something like this
76719


The harnass is closed with a big D-carabiner, one like this
76720

So now I'm wondering about how useable is a harnass like this for canyoneering?

I already found that caving harnasses are a no-go for climbing, because of a lower attachment point to the rope. That is said to make them unsafer in case you fall down (and slam upside down). But what about for canyoneering. Most of the time you'll be on tension with the rope.

Furthermore I'm wondering about the stability of a pirana if connected to this D-carabiner. Will the pirana-biner be unstable and slide sideways on the big D-carabiner? How does that influence rapelling? During that first caving trip :stud:(which I recently had and really enjoyed) I used a rack, which was no problem at all concerning stability.

Some other pro's and cons on how useable is this harnass for canyoneering.

PRO's

very small
light weight
simple to put on


CONs

maybe slightly less comfortable for very long rappels or many rappels in a row (don't know yet, not enough experience with it yet)
only 2 small side connectors for biners, slings, etc



Does anybody have experience with this? Any other points of view on what I came up with?

Thanks for any thoughts and feedback from your side!
grtz

You only show part of the harness. The other part is the chest harness that compensates for the low tie-in point of a caving harness. without this part, the harness is DANGEROUS to use.

I am sure this kind of harness works great for caving.

I'm also pretty sure this works poorly for canyoning. Because of the low tie in point.

T

[Bootboy]

Once hanging though, how much lower is the TIP? The biggest deterrent to me for using a harness like that is comfort. Although I like the simplicity.

[hank moon]

Hi Maarten (and Tom)

This harness (Petzl Fractio) is designed for use without a chest harness. For caving, that is, with the right body type, good technique, etc. Top heavy individuals can find the hanging position to be too unstable without a chest harness.

I haven't found them to be a good choice for general canyoneering:

- Not super comfy
- Low attachment point limits scope of application due to relatively unstable hanging position
- Insufficient racking capability
- Slow/awkward to adjust

However if you need to Frog up a rope, you can't beat it. I have used mine mainly for "yo-yo-ing" canyons, or for exploration with a lot of ascending.

So, not recommended for general canyoneering use, esp. not in Class C (better to wear something less tippy).

[harness man]

Hi Maarten
X2 to what Tom says.
The low tie in point, combined with wearing a pack could be VERY BAD.
As in upside down bad.
The other drag about this design is that it looks hard (impossible?) to adjust the fit while you are wearing it...

[canyoncaver]

I am interested to know if anyone (that has actually used a caving harness) has had trouble with instability or flipping backwards while rappelling.

I have heard this (what I believe to be a myth) about caving harnesses ever since I got involved with canyoneering and started interacting with canyoneers. Also, I have used a caving harness in caves for 14 years, and in canyons for the last 10 years. I have literally rappelled thousands of feet wearing caving harnesses, and I am a "top-heavy" person. I have never had problems, nor seen, nor heard of anyone having problems because of the supposed "too low" attachment point.

I am calling B.S. on this as a canyoneer myth unless someone (once again someone that has actually used the caving harness or seen it used) can relate an instance of someone not being able to rappel upright in a caving harness because of the low attachment point.

Where does this idea come from? I'm wondering if it is simply because you use a climbing harness with a higher attachment, and therefore lower attachments must be bad?

The assertion that caving harnesses aren't good for rappelling is baffling to cavers because that's what we use them for, and they work great. Yes, we also ascend with the same harness, but it is a 50/50 game, unless we are fortunate enough to do a cave with a pull-down traverse as in canyoneering.

The chest harness is not a factor. The chest harness that functions with the pictured seat harness is not a life-safety or positioning piece. It does not interface with the rope at all during descent. It merely serves on ascent to pull the croll (chest ascender) up the rope with each stroke. It can be safely constructed from webbing, a bungee cord, a shoestring, or whatever. The Petzl Fractio harness is certainly not "DANGEROUS" to use without a chest harness, as Tom asserts. Tom, I want to know where these kinds of ideas come from.

One thing to realize for this discussion is that cavers generally tether their packs when the weight gets above about 25-30 pounds. When packs are light, they might wear them on rappel, but I have never seen an issue with this even with our low attachment points. The only time I have ever flipped backwards on rappel was while wearing a 50+ pound pack. I should have tethered it, but forgot to on a small drop. This would have flipped even a person wearing a climbing harness.

In the absence of testing, or even any compelling anecdotes, the whole "cave harnesses bad for rappelling" idea sounds to me like an old wives' tale. It flies in the face of years of experience, and has no testing or stories to back it up. If you are saying that the harness is not safe for obese people, or for people that refuse to tether 50 pound packs, then that is a different discussion and does not mean that the harness is unsafe or unsuitable for Maarten or other non-obese 50-pound pack tetherers.

Any rebuttals from the old wives? :)

[harness man]

Well, a strong reply, Canyon Caver!:haha:
Not being a caver, I have never figured out WHY some caving harnesses are built with such a low center of gravity...
Perhaps there is some advantage/necessity for setting up ascending systems?
But it seems that a "low center of gravity" is a problem for many climbing harness designs also (and may not become apparent until an overhang sneaks up on you when you've got the big pack on).
On this particular design of caving harness the front rise (height difference from top of leg to waist) does not seem horribly short- maybe no worse than a BOD.
And I kinda like the double waistband.
But it seems that in canyoneering one of the goals of a waist harness is to keep you as upright as possible with as much weight on your back as possible.
Or not? Am I missing something?

[hank moon]

Petzl (and other Euro) caving harnesses are designed with an extra-low attachment point to maximize stroke length in a "Frog" rope ascent system.

This low attachment point can create a stability problem with some users. This problem can be exacerbated by free-hang, top-heaviness (esp. heavy load on back but also body type), and rappelling in heavy water flow. Lead climbing is definitely a no-no, and even top roping can be problematic.

Not all users will experience a problem as there are many variables.

I can recommend with relatively high confidence to Mr. or Mrs. Generic Canyoneer a sturdy two-piece (waist + leg loops) rock climbing design and not worry too much about those variables. I would not do that with a caving harness.

[french_de]

I own the petzl caving harness and have used it off and on for about 3 years now. It has been my main canyon harness and I have probably done more than 50 canyons with it and it is still going strong.

Pros;
- Very light weight
- small compact design - takes less room in the pack than other harnesses
- Very easy to put on.
- Very durable. The leg loops( which take a lot of abuse on my legs) are covered with an abrasive proof vinyl like material.
I paid 80 bucks for two of them. The second one sits new in its package.. I think the price as gone up since.

Cons;
- When its gets wet it tends to loosen just a tad requiring a mid canyon adjustment. Most times this is not an issue but when casually walking down or up a canyon on a Ho-Hum the leg loops can slip down a bit.
- With a wet suit on, if the harness isn't really cinched up it can slip down a tad.
- there are only two gears loops but I don't like carrying a lot of equipment on my harness.
- lack of padding. On big, long rappels this is a discomfort issue
- for those with body types that tend toward the horizontal on free hang rappels, this harness may exacerbate that affect. Maybe something to do with the tie In point.


-

[harness man]

Thanks for the info, Hank:mrgreen:
One of the big variables Hank mentions: your back length relative to your height.
If you are "short waisted" then many/most harness brands may feel just fine- because you have a 'balance point' that sits a little higher than average, enough to overcome a low-rise harness.
I am 5'8" (and shrinking!) and am long-waisted (about 19" along the spine from nape to hip line) so my 'tipping point' is a bit low.
For me a 'high-rise harness' really helps to keep upright on those gnarly /log jam/ overhang/ awkward starts, where hanging a pack is not practical.
I like the 'old wives' bit though...

[harness man]

Hey French_de!
An experiment: first we need your....
HEIGHT____________
and
BACK LENGTH___________
To determine your back length imagine standing in skanky pot- hole water just deep enough for the water to cover your hips and just stop at the tippy top of your hip bones.
Now get a tape measure (and maybe some help) and measure from the prominent bone at the base of your neck straight down your spine to the imaginary skanky water line....

[hank moon]

I own the petzl caving harness and have used it off and on for about 3 years now. It has been my main canyon harness and I have probably done more than 50 canyons with it and it is still going strong.

Pros;
- Very light weight
- small compact design - takes less room in the pack than other harnesses
- Very easy to put on.
- Very durable. The leg loops( which take a lot of abuse on my legs) are covered with an abrasive proof vinyl like material.
I paid 80 bucks for two of them. The second one sits new in its package.. I think the price as gone up since.

Cons;
- When its gets wet it tends to loosen just a tad requiring a mid canyon adjustment. Most times this is not an issue but when casually walking down or up a canyon on a Ho-Hum the leg loops can slip down a bit.
- With a wet suit on, if the harness isn't really cinched up it can slip down a tad.
- there are only two gears loops but I don't like carrying a lot of equipment on my harness.
- lack of padding. On big, long rappels this is a discomfort issue
- for those with body types that tend toward the horizontal on free hang rappels, this harness may exacerbate that affect. Maybe something to do with the tie In point.


-

Adding on...

- Petzl Fractio = 485 g size 1; 530 g size 2 (without the required fastening connector). BD Alpine Bod = 395 g; Singing Rock Guru size M = 416 g...
- Adjusting the harness is a PITA if you need to change layers (change from dry clothes to wetsuit, for example). Or if you just want to loosen the leg loops a bit for walking, etc.
- A special connector (not included with harness) is needed to close the harness. This adds to harness weight, cost, and (depending on connector choice) the PITA of don/doff/adjust. Cheapest decent solution is a steel No. 10 delta maillon at 153 g and maybe $10; at the other end of the spectrum is the (greatly preferred for ease of use) Petzl OMNI at 86 g and about $35 plus shipping. Try finding one of those, or a No. 10 delta at your local shop.
- Does not accept available butt protectors AFAIK
- Current retail on the Fractio is in the $100 range (again, plus shipping unless you live in TAG where you might find it in a local shop).

Other pros are the very low profile when worn, and low-absorbency materials.

If it sounds like I'm trying to discourage the casual canyoneer from investing in one of these, it's because I am. That said, I love my caving harness and use it on occasion as mentioned above.

[hank moon]

One of the big variables Hank mentions: your back length relative to your height.

Si, Senor!

Much more descriptive than simply "top-heavy."

[harness man]

Thanks!
But you and Tom are the old masters of exposition..:mrgreen:

[french_de]

Hey French_de!
An experiment: first we need your....
HEIGHT____________
and
BACK LENGTH___________
To determine your back length imagine standing in skanky pot- hole water just deep enough for the water to cover your hips and just stop at the tippy top of your hip bones.
Now get a tape measure (and maybe some help) and measure from the prominent bone at the base of your neck straight down your spine to the imaginary skanky water line....

Ok here are my stats. I had to go stand in my backyard pot hole

I am 6' 5" and back length is about 25"

The really good thing this harness has going for it is it's durability.

Maybe the next big product advance in this sport would be a better canyoneering harness One that is durable, is easy to put on, adjustable tie in point, comfortable, reasonably priced, light weight ..etc....

[hank moon]

[QUOTE=french_de;563358Maybe the next big product advance in this sport would be a better canyoneering harness One that is durable, is easy to put on, adjustable tie in point, comfortable, reasonably priced, light weight ..etc....[/QUOTE]

Yes, purpose built for "canyoneering" (vs. canyoning) would be nice, eh?

[hank moon]

Ok here are my stats. I had to go stand in my backyard pot hole

I am 6' 5" and back length is about 25"

Would be great to get this info from Canyoncaver, too, who self-describes as "top heavy"

[harness man]

Hi French_de
Well, at 6'5" and a 25" back length (thanks for measuring:mrgreen:!) you are actually pretty proportional according to our (limited) database.
So you do not seem overly bottom heavy according to height/back length.
Have you ever had a hard time staying upright rapping with a pack on?
Best
Todd

[french_de]

Hi French_de
Well, at 6'5" and a 25" back length (thanks for measuring:mrgreen:!) you are actually pretty proportional according to our (limited) database.
So you do not seem overly bottom heavy according to height/back length.
Have you ever had a hard time staying upright rapping with a pack on?
Best
Todd

I'm so glad I'm proportional:cool2: I have other problems but at least I have that:haha:

I do remember a couple of times that I moved to more of a sitting position with a heavy pack while in free hang mode when using this harness.

[canyoncaver]

Would be great to get this info from Canyoncaver, too, who self-describes as "top heavy"

If I am measuring correctly my back is 23" and my height is 5'11''. I have a weight of 205 lbs. and an inseam of 30". I enjoy candlelight dinners and walks on the beach.

[harness man]

Hi Canyoncaver
Sorry, you are NOT as proportional as French_de (me neither!)
That said he might also enjoy walks on the beach, so who knows?:mrgreen:
In fact, from our fitting data-base you are LONG-WAISTED (top-heavy), which blows my whole caving harness theory to heck:ne_nau:
I am hoping you have massive bicycle legs or maybe wear ski boots when you rappel.
That might help my theory out...
a little:facepalm1:

[oldno7]

Have used caving harness for yo-yoing boundary.

Didn't see any real advantage ascending as compared to a properly set up croll and torse.

Had no problem rappeling in said harness.

5'11"---24"

for you measuring types:mrgreen:

[harness man]

Hi Oldno7:mrgreen:
Well.......you are also long- waisted!
I am abandoning the long waisted/short waisted caving harness theory, nursing my wounded ego, and moving on to a less embarrassing :lol8:
thread.
But nice to hear from you!

[caverdan]

..

[ratagonia]

One thing a low attach point aids with is when you are doing change overs from ascend to repel. Long racks use to be the norm. The higher the attach point, the harder it is to get enough slack to get your chest ascender unhooked from the rope, once you feed your rack onto it.

On a side note, when caving with a heavy pack, the custom is to attach it to your harness with a short sling and let it dangle below you as you ascend and rappel.

Sometimes dangling the pack works, sometimes it does not.

We very rarely (as in very, very, very rarely) have to changeover from rap to ascend when canyoneering, or from ascend to rappel. And very few canyoneers use chest blocs or racks of any kind. But I do get your point that for caving, the low attachment point works for a variety of reasons, as part of the "normal system".

Tom

[maarten.1975]

Everybody thanks for your info, ideas and advices. Difficult to decide though....
I think while the old harness is still safe enough to use I'll take it as a back-up, and I'll start testing the new one, starting in 'easy' canyons with little rappels.

Hope to see you all in the canyons somewhere around end of May, beginning of June!
:2thumbs:

[canyoncaver]

Everybody thanks for your info, ideas and advices. Difficult to decide though...


Hi Maarten,

I'm sure the caving harness will suit you well, if that is the direction you decide to go. I asked two weeks ago if anyone had ANY real stories of someone inverting in a caving harness. The fact that no one was able to produce even a single story is very telling.

People may decide that climbing harnesses are "better" for canyons than caving harnesses. That is fine. We all have our opinions. However, there is no evidence that caving harnesses are "dangerous" for rappelling.

This "caving harnesses are bad/dangerous for rappelling" thing just needs to go away. It is a myth without any basis in fact. Although, for historical reasons I would still be interested in hearing how the myth got started. I have been hearing it from canyoneers since 2009.

In the future, I would ask folks to back up their very authoritative-sounding warnings with evidence, or just remain silent.

[harness man]

BUT…..us old timers LIKE wearing our harness hitched up REALLY high…
Just like our pants :mrgreen:

[reflection]

I own both the Petzl and a Gonzo Gear caving harness. One or the other fits better on certain human bodies male/female. The harness was/is the one of choice when going on ascending fests - down/up canyons. If using the frog or modified frog method the difference in stroke (from that of a climbing harness) is significant (over the stretch of hundreds of "pulls"). For me, a climbing harness is more comfortable though, easier to quickly adjust and allows for quick attachment on many loops (already stated by others). Petzl use to make - I assume they still do - a nice adjustable canyon harness that could go from S-L on one style and from L - XXL on the other. I've used them extensively when "lending out" to others who's shapes and sizes are different than I. To the inexperienced, the initial launch to a caving harness can "mentally" be a bit tippy; but with practice/experience it's normally not an issue, as long as with heavy weight packs, (going down) the pack is hung. Not as much of an issue on the way up if using a croll and a chest strap.

Since there are so many options in the caving, climbing and canyon modes - in terms of gear, use, practice, habit, exposure and experience, it's surprising that some still pontificate pro or con on this or that gear, particularly if they have never used it. Par for the course I guess with mindset or manners as they are.

[caverdan]

..

[jesseahouser]

I came across this thread and realized that I have a data point to offer. I am relatively new to canyoning, having been a caver for a few years. I own an OnRope1 Goliath Expedition harness and have descended about 35 Class C canyons with it. There are advantages, such as clean attachment (no maillon rapide needed) of the Croll and double cowstail (which I consider required equipment in Class C canyons). There are also disadvantages. I found that when wearing my pack on long free hanging rappels, I would expend considerable effort keeping myself upright. I am a wiry guy with long legs - 1.83 m and 75 kg. I have never experienced an issue with this when caving, even on a 178 m pitch with a small pack on my back. I gave this some thought, and came up with a possible explanation that my canyon pack usually has 60 m of wet rope, 10 m of wet nylon webbing, several rapides, and a 6 L keg full of stuff. Add to that often being under a waterfall with water entering the pack, and there you have it. One thing I ended up doing to help with this is clipping a carabiner from my left shoulder pack strap to the rope above my descender - it works well, but I wouldn't try it in a really serious waterfall for fear of something getting caught. Additionally, stream walking in the OnRope1 caving harness while wearing a wetsuit is a chore. I continually have to adjust the leg straps by pulling them up and then cinching down the buckles (they are the speed-buckle variety).

I just retired the OnRope1 harness (the center attachment points are now worn thin) and purchased Petzl Canyon and Superavanti harnesses for canyoning and caving respectively. I tried the Canyon harness out last weekend in three canyons. It was a world of difference. It is much easier to adjust and is more comfortable while stream walking. On rappels, the butt protector acts like a saddle and (I know this is subjective) makes me feel more stable when negotiating slippery slopes. I had no issues with free hanging rappels up to 40 m, presumably due to the way that the harness sits on the pelvis. The large gear loops are easy to deal with - as long as you're using full size carabiners (nothing smaller than say, a Petzl Spirit). One thing that I don't like is that I now have to use rapides to attach the Croll and double cowstail. That clutters things up a bit and puts the Croll at about mid-abdomen - much too high for efficient frogging. That said, I've only used my Croll for changing over to ascent once to deal with a core-shot rope.

One additional anecdote... I witnessed an experienced caver turn upside down in a canyon waterfall when wearing a caving harness. The person was not wearing a pack (we'd passed packs down due to the difficult nature of the waterfall). It happened in a split second when their foot got jammed in a crack behind the whitewater, and the force of the water pushed on their torso. Luckily, they kept a firm grip on the brake strand and freed the foot quickly. I have no idea if wearing a caving harness had any effect on this scenario. Certainly their experience, skill, and some luck helped them escape unharmed.

One very interesting new harness is one made by Aventure Verticale called Mazerin. It is designed for both caving and canyoning and includes a butt protector as well as a caving-type central attachment point (BYOO - Bring Your Own Omni).
http://www.aventureverticale.com/en/canyoning/sit-harness-avca04.html

[nkanarik]

FWIW...I'm 6'0, 220 lbs. tried a few harnesses, and so far my favorite is the the CampUSA Topaz+