Lomatium - Fiery Furnace

[peakbaggers]

Was wondering if anybody has legally done the Lomatium route since the new park canyoneering regulations went into effect and how/where they set up the rappel from the vicinity of Abbey Arch. Be careful what you confess to here - park officials may be monitoring. Here is the link to those regulations: http://www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/canyoneer.htm

[PG Rob]

We did this route a few weeks ago.

There is a descent position to place a sandtrap.

[Iceaxe]

Head of the drainage. You can sling a tree or a chokestone. It's easy to figure out. The last few times through there has always been webbing on one or the other so those are the most obvious. There are at least half a dozen other options that are within the rules that anyone with mediocre canyoneering skills should be able to figure out. If that don't work you can always reverse course and come back another day. It's not like you're trapped if you can't figure it out.

On a side note this might be a good spot for a well established bolted anchor if the park would agree.

[peakbaggers]

On a side note this might be a good spot for a well established bolted anchor if the park would agree.

Agree with this comment in this case. I think in the long run, a bolt will be less intrusive from the park's viewpoint than multiple slings showing up that are left behind in various places. Afterall, the next rappel down canyon is bolted! My inquiry was primarily to find out what others are doing so as to help establish a consistent use and help keep this route open.
Instead of using a retrievable sling setup or leaving a permanent sling somewhere, another possibility would be to use a 200 foot rope with a Fiddlestick or similar device and pull cord. Just don't have a fresh enough visual memory of that place to recall if the 200 will still reach the floor and if you can have a clean release.

[moab mark]

Agree with this comment in this case. I think in the long run, a bolt will be less intrusive from the park's viewpoint than multiple slings showing up that are left behind in various places. Afterall, the next rappel down canyon is bolted! My inquiry was primarily to find out what others are doing so as to help establish a consistent use and help keep this route open.
Instead of using a retrievable sling setup or leaving a permanent sling somewhere, another possibility would be to use a 200 foot rope with a Fiddlestick or similar device and pull cord. Just don't have a fresh enough visual memory of that place to recall if the 200 will still reach the floor and if you can have a clean release.

A 200 will reach easily from the tree. Fiddlestick works fine there.

[Iceaxe]

Fiddlestick and sandtrap are outside the skill and comfort range of 90% of your average canyoneers. Lomation is a trade route and a simple and safe anchor needs to be established. Mishaps at this location will do nothing to forward canyoneering inside the Fiery Furnace where it is already on thin ice. Sounds like this would be an ideal project for the CAC to invest some energy in.

[peakbaggers]

We did this route a few weeks ago.

There is a descent position to place a sandtrap.

Is filling a sandtrap or potshot allowable under the new rules? I know they won't allow rock farming - which is part of why they won't allow deadman anchors, but they can also get rather touchy about their sand as well since they want us to avoid walking on sand hills, etc. - might have crypto-critters. Shane - did you ever have any specific discussion about sandtraps & potshots with them?

[Kuya]

Lomation is a trade route.

how so? it is almost impossible to find beta on this canyon. How can it be a trade route if no one knows how or where to find it (without a guide)?

[Iceaxe]

No... but than again I don't use a sandtrap and there is no reason to use a potshot in Arches. In fact up until now there was no reason to carry a sandtrap in Arches.

While not specifically mentioned in the Arches rules my take is a sandtrap doesn't meet the spirit of the new rules. It would be nice if the canyoneering community took a proactive approach and established a simple and non invasive solution to this rappel. I hope to be down in Moab sometime in the next month. I'll try to look at it than if someone hasn't figured something out beforehand.

[Scott P]

How can it be a trade route if no one knows how or where to find it (without a guide)?

Actually a lot of people do that canyon. The only reason that it's not betaed on the internet is because if it were, the NPS would probably close it.

[moab mark]

The tree is a long ways from the edge. If you do not extend the webbing out it is a bear to pull. Common sense says allow us to use the arch. It's only 30 ft in diameter. I doubt we could hurt it. Otherwise we need some bolts.

[Kuya]

Actually a lot of people do that canyon. The only reason that it's not betaed on the internet is because if it were, the NPS would probably close it.

Oh i agree. almost every time I have gone I have ran into other groups doing the canyon. Just amazed at the popularity with how hard it is to get beta.

[Iceaxe]

Oh i agree. almost every time I have gone I have ran into other groups doing the canyon. Just amazed at the popularity with how hard it is to get beta.

But it's pretty easy to find someone to show you the route. I don't know anyone that has been forced to go without if they really want to do the route. I've personally taken well over 100 canyoneers through Lomatium and the only thing I ask in return is that they pay it forward.

[Bootboy]

Well over 100?

Legendary!

[oldno7]

Well over 100?

Legendary!

I showed it to over 30 people when I held a Rondy there several years ago,during a weekend, 100 doesn't seem out of line.

Moab Mark showed it to me and I'm relatively certain he's taken well over 100 folks through.

[Iceaxe]

Well over 100?

Legendary!

I've been doing Lomatium for over 15 years. I have also organized/been part of four different Moab canyon fests/rondy's where Lomatium is always a high priority and was often led multiple times. If you're bright enough do the actual math and you will notice well over 100 is well within reason. I know 100 is more than your number of fingers and toes, but give the math a whirl, you might be pleasantly surprised how simple it is to reach 100 when you make giving back to the canyon community a priority.

[Bootboy]

Giving back?
...Says the guy who SELLS beta

[Iceaxe]

I give away a lot more beta than I sell. Anytime you want to compare who has donated and contributed more of their time, energy and money to the canyon community feel free to step up.

Come to think of it, have you done anything charitable for canyoneering? Ever organized a rendezvous? Worked with land managers to open or keep open a route or area? Ever taught free canyoneering classes? Worked with local and national media for the betterment of canyoneering? Ever done anything we could consider giving back to the community?

The only thing I have seen you do is try and intimidate and make fun of noobs that visit the forums looking for help and answers.

[ratagonia]

:popcorn::popcorn:

[Bootboy]

Come to think of it, have you done anything charitable for canyoneering?


Yes, but somehow I manage it without so much self promotion

[qedcook]

Yes, but somehow I manage it without so much self promotion

Do tell.

[jman]

:popcorn::popcorn:

Oh yea...this is getting good!!

How about this - I think once people have donated a lot of time, energy, and their resources to the sport - which often goes thankless - I don't blame them for trying to tap into the growing niche market and making a buck or two.

The one difference between the players here, are the ones who post one or two threads saying "hey, buy my book" or "new descender device" or "similar sand trap device" etc....and never contribute or participate in the forums after that.

Even people who just say "thank you for posting" or "cool TR man" shows a lot more character than the person who just takes and takes (and criticizes) and rarely offers any thing positive, let alone a TR.

[Bootboy]

Oh yea...this is getting good!!

How about this - I think once people have donated a lot of time, energy, and their resources to the sport - which often goes thankless - I don't blame them for trying to tap into the growing niche market and making a buck or two.

The one difference between the players here, are the ones who post one or two threads saying "hey, buy my book" or "new descender device" or "similar sand trap device" etc....and never contribute or participate in the forums after that.

Even people who just say "thank you for posting" or "cool TR man" shows a lot more character than the person who just takes and takes (and criticizes) and rarely offers any thing positive, let alone a TR.

That's what CC is for. I come over here to goad people like Shane.

[Lizzard]

That's what CC is for. I come over here to goad people like Shane.

Don't fool yourself. You're an ass on CC as well

[peakbaggers]

And to think, I started this as a discussion about anchoring the rappel from Abbey Arch in Lomatium and the application of new park rules for that rap for the benefit of all. :nono: I guess that discussion ended a long time ago.

[harness man]

Peakbagger-
sorry your thread got jacked!
However- some really constructive :nod: points were raised.
We are all judged/loved/admired by what we have given to others.
I for one have been the beneficiary of a LOT of free information,help and encouragement on this forum
and realize I need to do more to give back to our community.
Thanks,
Todd

[flatiron]

Got highjacked right here methinks.

"Well over 100?

Legendary!"

Why encourage trolls?

Harness Man makes a much better comment:
"However- some really constructive :nod: points were raised.
We are all judged/loved/admired by what we have given to others.
I for one have been the beneficiary of a LOT of free information,help and encouragement on this forum
and realize I need to do more to give back to our community."
:2thumbs:

[peakbaggers]

Peakbagger-
sorry your thread got jacked!
However- some really constructive :nod: points were raised.
We are all judged/loved/admired by what we have given to others.
I for one have been the beneficiary of a LOT of free information,help and encouragement on this forum
and realize I need to do more to give back to our community.
Thanks,
Todd

Just to give credit where credit is due, it was about this time, three years ago when Shane (Ice Axe) put a general post on Bogley offering any comers a chance to join him on the Lomatium route. We responded and he and his wife and one of his daughters graciously gave us the grand tour. We were thrilled to have a chance to see this route. We have since, "paid it forward" to others and will continue to do so.

[jman]

Just to give credit where credit is due, it was about this time, three years ago when Shane (Ice Axe) put a general post on Bogley offering any comers a chance to join him on the Lomatium route. We responded and he and his wife and one of his daughters graciously gave us the grand tour. We were thrilled to have a chance to see this route. We have since, "paid it forward" to others and will continue to do so.

That's cool.

I'm hoping this upcoming year someone whil guide my friends and I through Krill and Lomatium.

[Kuya]

Peakbaggers! You guys rock! :)

As far as anchoring near Abby arch, I find it exciting and fun to figure it out without using bolts. Seeing a bolt there would make me kinda sad (and I'm not even bolt adverse) Seems that there should be some relatively simple solutions in the area that will allow a party to get into the canyon by using natural anchors. I remember looking at trees and other natural features (not the arch) last time I went, and it seemd like there were lots of options.

Good luck! have fun! The problem solving involved in canyoneering is what makes is so much fun for me :) hopefully for others as well.

[peakbaggers]

That's cool.

I'm hoping this upcoming year someone whil guide my friends and I through Krill and Lomatium.

Don't hesitate to contact us and see if we could be of help - though we still haven't done the Krill route.

[peakbaggers]

As far as anchoring near Abby arch, I find it exciting and fun to figure it out without using bolts. Seeing a bolt there would make me kinda sad (and I'm not even bolt adverse) Seems that there should be some relatively simple solutions in the area that will allow a party to get into the canyon by using natural anchors. I remember looking at trees and other natural features (not the arch) last time I went, and it seemd like there were lots of options.

Good luck! have fun! The problem solving involved in canyoneering is what makes is so much fun for me :) hopefully for others as well.

Fundamentally agree with you, BUT, my concern is the way some people may try to anchor this rap and either leave stuff behind or do other damage that will frustrate the park staff to the point of closing the route - hence the willingness in this case to consider a bolted setup since the lower rap already is. I'm hoping to go there in the next few weeks and take a look at it myself and see if we can put some suggestions out there. Sounds like Ice Axe may do the same.

[moab mark]

Yes if it wasn't in the park 30ft of webbing laying around would be no big deal. But lots of people do the lomatium hike with out rappelling out. They'll be walking right pass that tree. I've run into more people who are just hiking at Abbey Arch then Canyoneers.

[jman]

Don't hesitate to contact us and see if we could be of help - though we still haven't done the Krill route.

Thanks for the offer! Perhaps sometime in 2015, spring-ish. I will keep you in mind.

[bioject]

A 200 will reach easily from the tree. Fiddlestick works fine there.

I know a 200' should be sufficient and yes that tree just behind the arch is a perfect spot for a fiddle stick or any kind of releasable for that matter. Anybody know the height of the first rap into Lomatium? I just want to confirm? Also is it possible to access the Skull arch from the bottom? Also does anybody recall how long it takes to hike to the first rap? I know it's at least an hour, but my failing memory thinks it's probably two depending on the speed of the group.

[Kuya]

Skull arch is part of the guided tour. So yes, you can see it from the bottom.

[bioject]

Skull arch is part of the guided tour. So yes, you can see it from the bottom.

Yep I remember seeing it last time I was in the Fiery Arch. Is there a way from the base of skull arch to climb to the top of the arch?

[Iceaxe]

Anybody know the height of the first rap into Lomatium? I just want to confirm?

The old rappel from Abbey Arch was 130', the new rappel at the head of the canyon should be the same plus or minus 5'

[Iceaxe]

I was just looking at some old pictures of Lomatium. There are a couple huge boulders under Abbey Arch that would be simple to sling. The pull is a little long so you would want to extend the webbing out or fiddlestick or ??? but setting a rappel to get down should be simple and straightforward.


Looking through Abbey Arch into Lomatium

76733


Looking back through Abby Arch.

76734

[moab mark]

We have tried several ways to get to top of skull arch. No luck. We want to rappel of the nose bone. Oh sorry back when that would of been legal. Shane those rocks are reasonable size it seems like when I looked at them it would be very hard to get your webbing back. YMMV.

[Iceaxe]

Shane those rocks are reasonable size it seems like when I looked at them it would be very hard to get your webbing back. YMMV.

I didn't expect to retrieve the webbing if you sling those rocks.



We have tried several ways to get to top of skull arch. No luck. We want to rappel of the nose bone. Oh sorry back when that would of been legal.

I went through a period of Arch bagging and have stood on top of most the major arches inside the park. With the new rules I don't believe climbing most of the arches is legal these days..... but.... I climbed Skull Arch from the front side. Facing it, start on the right side up to a ledge (5.8ish), then up the left side to the bottom of the two arch openings, then back across to the other side is a fairly easy short crack system to the top. As I recall, we down climbed it all to the first ledge above the 5.8ish section. There is a hidden bolt anchor on the ledge. There is a rather large peace sign carved into the rock span between the two openings as I recall.

There is also a large carving above Tunnel Arch near Landscape Arch. In fact, there are a lot of wanna-be paleo-idiot carvings around a number of arches, which kind of surprised me.

Arch bagging has been around as an underground sub-culture for a long time. I believe I walked across just about every major arch in the park except Delicate Arch and Ribbon Arch. Delicate Arch was off limits as it was one of those unwritten brotherhood of the secret code deals.....

Gerry Roach pretty much set the tone and rules that the sub-culture of Arch Baggers live by in 1982 with his book "Arch Bagger - A Scramblers Guide to Arches National Park".

Gerry Roach's book is kinda rare and kinda pricey these days as only 300 copies were ever printed. Copy's were selling for $100 last time I looked and signed copies were $200. I picked up my copy of the book from a fellow canyoneer that found it on a book store clearance table for $1.69.

[Iceaxe]

Additional Note - I tried to climb Skull Arch using Roach's beta (I believe Roach calls it Twin Arch) which uses a rear (Krill Canyon) approach and never figured it out. I spent a day with Price and Summers working on the rear approach and we could never make it work. When that didn't work we used the direct frontal assault.

[bioject]

Fiddlestick and sandtrap are outside the skill and comfort range of 90% of your average canyoneers. Lomation is a trade route and a simple and safe anchor needs to be established. Mishaps at this location will do nothing to forward canyoneering inside the Fiery Furnace where it is already on thin ice. Sounds like this would be an ideal project for the CAC to invest some energy in.

So dumb down the skill it takes so that less skilled people can do it? I would prefer if more people were educated instead and given the skills to do it without the need for bolts.

[Iceaxe]

So dumb down the skill it takes so that less skilled people can do it? I would prefer if more people were educated instead and given the skills to do it without the need for bolts.

Are you familiar with the Fiery Furnace? It's history? It's issues? Are you aware the route is already bolted with the exception of this one rappel? Are you aware the current anchor is an arch?

Normally I would agree with you about dumbing down a route... but the Furnace is a very different animal. Discussions have already been held inside the park service about only allowing access by ranger guided tours. Discussions have been held about banning technical gear. This is not your typical canyon and if canyoneers become even a small problem we could easily lose access.

If canyoneers want to maintain access we can't have rope grooves, especially in an arch. We can't tie up resources with SAR and accidents. We can't create a management issue.

[bioject]

Don't hesitate to contact us and see if we could be of help - though we still haven't done the Krill route.

Do you remember how long the approach takes from the car to the first rap in Lomatium?

[Kuya]

About an hour or so. Depends on how much you stop to gawk at the incredible scenery. I always like to stop by Suprise Arch too.

[Iceaxe]

Do you remember how long the approach takes from the car to the first rap in Lomatium?

If you hike direct, don't get lost, and don't visit any of the side attractions about 20 minutes. The entire loop can be done in less than an hour, but then you would be completely missing the charm of the Furnace as it's the side attractions and scenery that make the trip.

The entire Fiery Furnace is relatively small at about 1/2 mile long and 1/2 mile wide. It would easily fit inside a couple city blocks. About 15 years ago we explored every square foot of the Furnace and it took 3 full days, with a crew of skilled climbers/canyoneers. Once you get the place figured out it's pretty simple, but if you have never been before you will get lost in the maze.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3M_uvC2dXU

[Sandstone Addiction]

Has anyone tried painting bolts, hangers, and chains to match the color of the sandstone to minimize the chance of being seen by sightseers?

[peakbaggers]

Do you remember how long the approach takes from the car to the first rap in Lomatium?

There are actually several ways to approach the first rap/main arch (Abbey) - two of which I've heard come from the outer fringes of the Furnace area. Using those can get you there quickly. I don't think the NPS likes people using those but I may be wrong. I've only ever done the "inside" route and there can be variations on that as well. To do the entire inside route and have time to enjoy the scenery, explore around some of the other side canyons, take photos and maybe eat a little, give yourself a good four+ hours for a smaller group and especially if you're taking a newb.

[Iceaxe]

There are actually several ways to approach the first rap/main arch (Abbey) - two of which I've heard come from the outer fringes of the Furnace area. Using those can get you there quickly.

Using the outside approaches would be highly frowned upon as they all cross large swaths of crypto in addition to creating meandering social trails. Using the outside approaches is the type of thing that will get canyoneering banned inside the Furnace. Not only that the inside approach is the fastest and most direct approach from the parking lot. It's pretty much a straight shot to the head of Lomatium if you cut out the side trips to things like Surprise Arch.

[moab mark]

Video:)