Pothole escape - which option to use?

[nkanarik]

I took an advanced canyoneering class in Moab last weekend, and among other things we practiced some pothole escapes. I was wondering if someone can help me with the question below

Scenario (illustrated in attached image): There are two adjacent potholes (with a lip between then), and you are pretty confident that you can toss multiple potshots from where the person is standing to pothole-B in order for you to escape pothole-A. Assume that you

[Taylor]

Good lord that makes my head hurt. What canyon is this? I've done some pretty hard ones and I don't recognize...

[Iceaxe]

Good lord that makes my head hurt.

LMAO... I thought I was the only one.

nkanarik... start with the popular beginner canyons and by the time you work up to canyons requiring complicated pothole escapes you will blast through them without giving them much of a thought.



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[oldno7]

I've found the secret to any keeper pothole, is to get one person through.

Then all else becomes intrinsically less complicated.

There is a similar set up in Imlay, a good group utilizes it's assets, one of those, should be a light, climber guy.

Either or will work(light/climber) but both is best.

Your scenario is not complicated and would rarely require more than one potshot, to get the first guy through.

Once he is through, team members can drop into the keeper and the first guy through anchors there escape, either with an aider or a series of aiders.

Now if your scenario involved a lip that would not hold a potshot, things would change and may require additional weight but as I stated, your drawing is really quite simple for advanced canyoneers.

[nkanarik]

I put together the diagram really quickly, and just wanted to convey/illustrate a scenario where you have to cross a keeper (pothole A) and in order for you to do so, you might need to throw multiple potshots (you guys can come up with whatever canyon scenario you might have encountered in the past :)). So While the diagram may not be the best, I'm more interested to see if there's a way to to avoid climbing up a keeper pothole with prussik on multiple cords (,which is fine), but I'd rather be climbing with mechanical ascenders/tiblocs instead.Now back to the question :)...

"

For option1: What would you do if you “missed” any of potshots #2-4 (for this example let’s say potshot #3) and poshot #3 landed on the lip between the two potholes? How would you retrieve the potshot without pulling out potshot #1 & 2, since potshots #3 is only hanging with a sling and carabiner off of the 8 mm rope (unlike potshot #1, which is clipped to the end of the rope)?
"

BTW...I plan visiting SRS and Escalante next May, so if anyone has recommendations for easy "pothole practice" ones to start with, I'll be more than happy to listen.

Thanks

[Iceaxe]

If you want to learn potholes do Quandary Direct. All of the potholes can be defeated with a simple pack toss. But while you are doing the canyon try/practice several different methods of escape and learn, knowing you can always use a pack toss if the other methods fail.

After Quandary you will have a descent understanding of potholes and will know better what questions to ask.


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[ratagonia]

Bring more rope.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Bring more rope.

Tom

Amen

[mzamp]

if the 5-6mm cord is long enough you could loop that through the potshot and then retrieve it if necessary or if it makes the lip pull the cord free. However, I don't think using a prussik opposed to an ascender will be the issue. The issues will be getting a good stance to make a clean toss and the added friction of the rope making the toss harder also.

I'm fatter than I like to believe, so in the squeeze I ended up needing to add more weight. The added bag did not clear the lip so I just used my avi probe to push it over the lip.

[ratagonia]

I took an advanced canyoneering class in Moab last weekend, and among other things we practiced some pothole escapes. I was wondering if someone can help me with the question below

Scenario (illustrated in attached image): There are two adjacent potholes (with a lip between then), and you are pretty confident that you can toss multiple potshots from where the person is standing to pothole-B in order for you to escape pothole-A. Assume that you’ll need 30’ of rope to anchor the potshot. You have a 60’ 8mm rope and four potshots with 4 30’ 5-6 mm cords. You need four potshot for this.
o Option 1: Connect the 8mm rope to potshot #1 and throw it to pothole-B. Once you succeeded with that (, which means you are now holding the 8mm rope at the ~30’ mark), you connect potshot #2 with a carabiner and a sling to the rope’s 30’ mark and throw it (using the 8mm as a guide line). You then repeat the process for potshot #3 and #4. You end up with 4 potshots at the bottom of pothole-B, using only 30’ of one 8mm rope and you can ascend with mechanical ascenders (which is much easier than prusiks J)
o Option 2: You connect a separate 30’ of 5-6mm cord to each of the potshots. The drawback here, is that I’m not aware of a mechanical ascender that can allow you climbing multiple cords, so you’d have to use the prusik system, which is less desirable

[Question]
For option1: What would you do if you “missed” any of potshots #2-4 (for this example let’s say potshot #3) and poshot #3 landed on the lip between the two potholes? How would you retrieve the potshot without pulling out potshot #1 & 2, since potshots #3 is only hanging with a sling and carabiner off of the 8 mm rope (unlike potshot #1, which is clipped to the end of the rope)?


Some people have gotten the "trolley" system to work, but I have not. Really the best answer is bring enough rope. what are you doing in a technical canyon with only 30' of rope???

I'd take option 2, a separate cord for each potshot, channel Steve Jackson and climb the bundle of ropes hand over hand.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

This was written about 10 years ago by Bill Bees, but it has some good thoughts on pothole escape among other things you might find of interest.

Canyoneering Primer
http://climb-utah.com/Misc/natural.htm


http://climb-utah.com/SRS/Files/quandary1.jpg

[nkanarik]

"I'd take option 2, a separate cord for each potshot, channel Steve Jackson and climb the bundle of ropes hand over hand." --> "channel Steve Jackson"???

[ratagonia]

"I'd take option 2, a separate cord for each potshot, channel Steve Jackson and climb the bundle of ropes hand over hand." --> "channel Steve Jackson"???

http://www.danransom.com/video/

2nd Video down, "POE" - star of the show.

Tom

[Taylor]

aka Spiderman

[Bootboy]

Me in Poe 76551

[Iceaxe]

Wow.... big difference in water level between the two pictures. One of you had a much easier climb...

76554

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=76551&d=1413459086

[Iceaxe]

Wow.... big difference in water level between the two pictures. One of you had an easier climb... :popcorn:

76554

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=76551&d=1413459086

[oldno7]

You can say that again....:haha:

[deagol]

I had to go down into the pothole in Paradiso to get a ropebag out recently. Pretty spooky down there, I don't think I could have gotten out without the hoist I got from my team. There was water of unknown depth, but I didn't have to get wet to grab the bag. Even if the top of the water was solid ground, I could not have climbed out.

[Iceaxe]

First rule of canyoneering.... Don't go down into something you can't get out of.....


Tap'n on my smart phone.

[mzamp]

First rule of canyoneering.... Don't go down into something you can't get out of.....
Tap'n on my smart phone.

I thought that was the first rule of dating? :naughty:

[deagol]

First rule of canyoneering.... Don't go down into something you can't get out of.....


Tap'n on my smart phone.

Well, yeah.. of course. I could get out of it... but not without the rope hoist. If I was alone, no way in hell I would have went down there...

[Iceaxe]

I thought that was the first rule of dating? :naughty:

First rule of dating is don't marry your first piece of tail ;-)


Tap'n on my smart phone.