Subway in zion on November 3rd

[fabio]

Hi!
We're considering to hike the Subway top-down on November 3rd, anyone ever done it that late in the year?

I have no specific experience in canyoneering (only once many years ago on the dead sea area in Israel) but 25 years of experience in alpinism, rock climbing, rappelling and hiking/excursions/ route finding (I was actually an unofficial course teacher of all these on the alps for several years). My two friends are good hikers but with respectively limited and no experience of alpinism and no experience of canyoneering as well.

We plan to go for the narrows sleeping on bottom the two days before and we are still debating whether or not we can afford this semi-technical route, but for the moment we have a few specific questions:

1) We were wondering if we really are going to need dry-suits, or if wetsuits will do.
From the rout descriptions, we don't really understand how long we would have to hike out of the water in the wet wetsuit, waiting for the next swim. We expect T

[Scott P]

[QUOTE][COLOR=#333333]We expect T

[hipporump]

Do you need to wear a helmet? Certainly not. Would it be wise to wear one? Absolutely. You never know what might happen on slippery rocks.

A lot of times rappel stations have rings already put in place, but bring webbing and the essentials to set up an anchor should one not be there or if you have to replace an old/worn anchor. One of the most incredible things about canyoneering is that conditions are always changing within the canyons and something that was there before may no longer be there.

[fabio]

"I meant lower 60s, sorry that was a typo. Thanks for your input"

[fabio]

Thanks for the comment Hipporump: I'll bring my helmet and all the essential to set up the rappel in case we need!

[TommyBoy]

"I meant lower 60s, sorry that was a typo. Thanks for your input"

Even lower 60's might be optimistic, that time of year there is a larger variance in temps. Low 60's are certainly possible, but if a cold front is moving through at that time you could be looking at low 40's too, still doable at those low temps, but only if you're properly prepared. As for webbing, you shouldn't need a lot since there aren't many drops and they are likely to already be set up, but is a good practice to always have at least some webbing and a rappel ring or two just in case. One thing I've found that really helps when wearing a wetsuit is to wear a windbreaker so that when you are out of the water you don't cool off as much.

Oh and as for a helmet, it's like a seat belt in your car, you only need it when you have an accident, but you have to wear it all the time since you never know when you're gonna be in an accident.

[fabio]

Thank TommyBoy: The helmet / seat belt comparison makes sense to me and I very much appreciate the suggestion of the windbreaker,

[Don]

Looking at maybe doing this route November 10th. I'd be interested in hearing how your trip goes...

[Scott P]

Even lower 60's might be optimistic, that time of year there is a larger variance in temps. Low 60's are certainly possible, but if a cold front is moving through at that time you could be looking at low 40's too, still doable at those low temps

What he said.

I don't know where your getting lower 60's either. Perhaps you are looking at a weather station in the Zion Canyon Visitor Center? If so, be aware that the Subway is at a much higher elevation and that time of year sees very little sunlight. I would guess that 40's or 50's are most common, but it can be colder or warmer depended on the weather situation. Go prepared for cold water if going in at that time of year. If you go well prepared, you can still have a good time.

[fabio]

Sure Don, If we finally decide to go, We'll let you know!

[fabio]

OK Scott, Thanks again!

[2065toyota]

You won't know until the week before on what the weather gods have done. Could be bright and sunny or there may be 3' of snow.

Same as all trips. Plan on going unless the weather stops you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flatiron]

[QUOTE=fabio;562288]

1) We were wondering if we really are going to need dry-suits, or if wetsuits will do.
From the rout descriptions, we don't really understand how long we would have to hike out of the water in the wet wetsuit, waiting for the next swim. We expect T

[ratagonia]

"4) Are the rappelling stations already set with metal rings where I can safely pass thru our rope to easily recover it after descending? (or do I need to bring webbing, carabiners and all the stuff for emergency setting a rappel in case of troubles?) "

That you ask this question in this way brings to the front that this is not a sport that you are familiar with. Canyoneering is not climbing.

That said, The Subway is about the least technical of technical canyons. But, add late in the season, and...

Really Truly, the best advice I can give you is "NO". I realize that everyone else is trying to think of ways to either make this a reasonable venture for your underexperienced and underequipped group; or trying to find ways to politely tell you that you probably should not go. Since most everyone on Bogley thinks I am an... impolite person already, I will be blunt: this is not a good idea. The Subway is a great adventure, and is very forgiving during the summer, when temperatures are warm, daylight hours long, and there would be plenty of people in the canyon to help out. But in early November it is not nearly as forgiving.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

[QUOTE=fabio;562288]Hi!
We're considering to hike the Subway top-down on November 3rd, anyone ever done it that late in the year?

I have no specific experience in canyoneering (only once many years ago on the dead sea area in Israel) but 25 years of experience in alpinism, rock climbing, rappelling and hiking/excursions/ route finding (I was actually an unofficial course teacher of all these on the alps for several years). My two friends are good hikers but with respectively limited and no experience of alpinism and no experience of canyoneering as well.

We plan to go for the narrows sleeping on bottom the two days before and we are still debating whether or not we can afford this semi-technical route, but for the moment we have a few specific questions:

1) We were wondering if we really are going to need dry-suits, or if wetsuits will do.
From the rout descriptions, we don't really understand how long we would have to hike out of the water in the wet wetsuit, waiting for the next swim. We expect T

[fabio]

Hi Spinesnaper and All previous bloggers and thank for your suggestions and comments:
Sorry for my long silence, I had some non-technical personal reason to temporarily hold it, but I was not at all put off by all your comments.

On the contrary, I definitely strongly appreciated any honest advice, including the ones suggesting not to go, as I am sure they came from a desire to help beginners to avoid serious troubles. On the other hand I often find myself in the same (reverse) situation when I tried to discourage inexperienced people from going to potentially dangerous adventures on the Alps (hiking / rock climbing etc), so I certainly understand all your points of view.

(By the way: Yes, I also never climbed without an helmet when leading, or in any other potentially dangerous situation! As admitted at the beginning, I don't really have a direct experience about what to expect in canyoneering, so I asked for it and after listening to you I certainly will use an helmet for the Subway when and if I'll go there).

Said that with my friend we are still talking about it but at least as for me I am strongly oriented to do other things (Narrows + Angels Landing + ?) and postpone the Subway to a time in the year when (as mentioned by the 'impolite blogger' Ratagonia - just joking, I did appreciate your comment as well!) it would be more forgiving and probably an overall nicer experience as well.

However, regarding the best season to make it, a doubt arise during the talk with one of my friend: How can we protect ourselves in the summer from flash flood danger? We understood that summer as well might be quite dangerous and really unforgiving in case you are caught by that, but It's unclear to me weather a flash flood risk would will be at same safe extent predictable in advance (within say the 1-2 day before the planned adventure)...Thank again and in advance for your input!

Fabio

[ratagonia]

However, regarding the best season to make it, a doubt arise during the talk with one of my friend: How can we protect ourselves in the summer from flash flood danger? We understood that summer as well might be quite dangerous and really unforgiving in case you are caught by that, but It's unclear to me weather a flash flood risk would will be at same safe extent predictable in advance (within say the 1-2 day before the planned adventure)...Thanks again and in advance for your input!

Fabio

Flash floods can happen any day of the year (especially April 1st). But they are predictable, at least, one can predict the weather that produces them 24 hours in advance and not go on that day. It is hard to predict exactly which canyons will flash; it is easy to predict in what area there are likely to be flash floods. Yes, there is a monsoon season in August and September, and July, sometimes October; but what this means is that during those months, the monsoon might be in place in Zion to make flash floods, or it might not.

The way we deal with this is to schedule our trips, and if we get down to Zion and the monsoon is operating, then go do a hike or something - an adventure where the rain and subsequent flash floods are fun rather than life-threatening. Yes, you waited 9 months to do the Subway, psyched up your friends, did three training sessions at your local rock and bought fresh equipment - all these are not excuses for doing the Subway on days when thunderstorms are likely. The Subway will be there for quite a few years into the future - make sure you are too.

Tom

[fabio]

Thank Tom, I understand and agree :nod: !

Fabio

[Scott P]

Tom is right that flash floods can happen at any time of year, but the best time to hike the Subway is probably mid to late June. June is usually the driest time of year and the days are long with plenty of sunlight.

In some areas along the wide canyons though, horseflies and gnats can be a problem that time of year, but they usually aren't in narrow canyons such as the Subway.

[fabio]

Hi All,

We are back from our first Zion (small) experience and I just wanted to let you know the end of the whole story: Not only for that but even because the suggestion of some of you we then indeed decided to skip the Subway (which we'll possibly postpone to next June/July when it might be easier) and we made indeed the way easier but still very nice Narrows. Out of that we had our good dose of adventure as we hike as well the West Rim (+ Angels landing) backpacking at 7,400 feet and waking up in the morning under a quite heavy and absolutely wonderful snowstorm!...Great Christmas like view and lot of fun.

Thank again to all of you for the comments, suggestions and feed backs you sent...and talk to you next time!

Fabio

[jman]

Here are two pics from my younger brother and friends' attempted trip to the Subway over the weekend. Bringing three Subway noobs with them in high-water is never a good idea...

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[Don]

Cody and I did do the Subway on the 10th of November. The water was cold, but the day was nice and we had a great time. We moved fast and took almost no pictures. Met another Bogleyite in the canyon ( Triggerfish ) who took some great pics. Maybe he'll come along and share here?

[Triggerfish]

Glad to put 'em out here! Now let's see if I can make the upload work... (I'm even more of a noob to forum use than I am to canyoneering!)

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[Sandstone Addiction]

Gorgeous pics Triggerfish ! Thanks for posting them.

If I could just make one tiny suggestion though to make your pics really stand out? If you would click on the "edit post" tab at the bottom of your post and put a space or two between each picture, it will separate them.

Other than that, they look great!

[Don]

Thanks @Triggerfish (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=26358)

These really are great pics.

Also, I edited your post to add the spaces between pics.

[Triggerfish]

Thanks all! And @Don (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=306), I realized I forgot to throw in a couple you two were actually in (that ever-moving Cody gets a little blurry though!).

Still working on the image spacing thing...