Red Cave (s) in Mt. Carmel, Utah

[Bo_Beck]

Tanya and I have been told by a recreational source that access to Red Caves via Tait Lane has been closed. Apparently vandalism to Tait property is the reason? A gate was unhinged and when one of the Taits went to open it the gate fell on them? I'm hoping that after the OR show next week Tanya and I might be able to make contact with Del and see if there is anything that might be done to resolve this issue?

[Sandstone Addiction]

Is it possible to access this area from the wash bottom coming in from the south?

[tanya]

I wish someone would take the time and find a way to get into Red Cave that does not involve crossing private property. There must be some way. The other way in that we know of the land owner there uses it for renting out to hunters and is adamant canyoneers don't access it that way. Maybe this is something the coalition can address.

[darhawk]

So, RoadTripRyan suggests the way below. He mentions it crosses private property but doesn't suggest there are any issues. Is this the "other way in" that you refer to, Tanya, where the landowner is adamant about no canyoneers? Or is this a third way where access is possible but still across private land?

http://www.roadtripryan.com/resources/content/utah/zion/red-cave-canyon/maps/bordered_red-cave.jpg

[Iceaxe]

The other way in is not the route noted on the map, but it crosses private property of an owner that has not been accommodating to canyoneers in the past.

This issue really needs someone spending a little bit of time on the problem an working out a solution.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

FWIW- there is actually a third way in that is all on BLM land, but it is long, complicated, and requires a hardcore 4x4 or ATV.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bo_Beck]

FWIW- there is actually a third way in that is all on BLM land, but it is long, complicated, and requires a hardcore 4x4 or ATV.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Have done this route, and yes it does require a beefy 4x4 or ATV.

[villainousturtle]

Anyone want to tell me this secret all BLM route? I'd be very gratefull.


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[Iceaxe]

I don't have my maps in front of me at the moment.... but... The roads are shown on the 7.5 USGS maps. The route begins just south of Mt. Carmel Junction. In that area the BLM land reaches the highway.

Elsewhere the issue is the first 1/2 mile east of the highway is private property. For the record its been 10 years since I last went in this way.



Tap'n on my smart phone.

[mzamp]

So, RoadTripRyan suggests the way below. He mentions it crosses private property but doesn't suggest there are any issues. Is this the "other way in" that you refer to, Tanya, where the landowner is adamant about no canyoneers? Or is this a third way where access is possible but still across private land?

http://www.roadtripryan.com/resources/content/utah/zion/red-cave-canyon/maps/bordered_red-cave.jpg

I was thinking one could access the BLM land just to the South of MCJ without crossing private land. There is a steep grade to negotiate though. I briefly was looking at this the last time I drove past, but didn't give it much effort since I had just done Red Cave back in July and figured if there was a better access than Tait lane, surely IceAxe would know about it.

[Iceaxe]

So, RoadTripRyan suggests the way below. He mentions it crosses private property but doesn't suggest there are any issues. Is this the "other way in" that you refer to, Tanya, where the landowner is adamant about no canyoneers? Or is this a third way where access is possible but still across private land?

http://www.roadtripryan.com/resources/content/utah/zion/red-cave-canyon/maps/bordered_red-cave.jpg

DO NOT try accessing by vehicle using the above map. You have to drive right through the property owners yard and he will not be happy. He is NOT friendly.



Tap'n on my smart phone.

[Iceaxe]

Here is the information for accessing Red Cave using BLM property. The BLM access begins just south of Mount Carmel Junction. It's a serious 4x4 road. I have been in using all the roads highlighted on the map. I would like to see the CAC do something worth while like perhaps getting access to Red Cave. Upper Red Cave is one of the most beautiful slot canyons I know of, it's family friendly, requires no permit, and has both hiking and tech options.

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[mzamp]

So that would only add 2 miles each way if one were to hike the road. A Mt bike may also work even if parts are hike-a-bike.

CAC could organize graffiti removal in upper red for exchange of grading the road.
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[Iceaxe]

A Mt bike may also work even if parts are hike-a-bike.

I don't think a mtn bike would work well as much of the route is sandy.

[Iceaxe]

If I was going to hike in I would go right up Sand Wash starting just north of MM82 on Hwy 89. You would be crossing private property but I doubt you would have any problems provided you were well behaved and stayed in the watercourse.

The biggest problem with the most direct Private Road is it goes right through the land owners front yard. The road is only 20' from his front door so I can understand why he doesn't want traffic and dust. At one time he would let us drive the road provided we drove through at a slow crawl. But some asshats ruined that by blasting through one day about 40 mph and almost running over his family. After that he has no use for anyone driving across his property.

[villainousturtle]

Thanks for the info Ice


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[Sleipnir]

If I was going to hike in I would go right up Sand Wash starting just north of MM82 on Hwy 89. You would be crossing private property but I doubt you would have any problems provided you were well behaved and stayed in the watercourse.

The biggest problem with the most direct Private Road is it goes right through the land owners front yard. The road is only 20' from his front door so I can understand why he doesn't want traffic and dust. At one time he would let us drive the road provided we drove through at a slow crawl. But some asshats ruined that by blasting through one day about 40 mph and almost running over his family. After that he has no use for anyone driving across his property.

I was down there recently. Tait Lane is as good as closed, and they don't seem at all in the mood to work with people on this. Don't ask.

Anyway, I used the BLM route you posted. I stopped at the bottom of State Barn Wash and hiked the rest of the way to lower. We stopped because the steep track climbing out of the wash was torn up from water pouring down the wheel ruts, leaving a huge hump in the middle of a very steep uphill track. This route is pretty horrible anyway at this point, seems like no maintenance has ever been done on it. The beginning of the route is absolutely terrible, ripped to shreds by water coursing over giant boulders, then super tight and between junipers, your paint will get scratched.

Can it be done in a beefy 4x4? Sure, but it's more of an ATV route. The real question is, is it worth it to visit at all? I would say no.

We only visited Lower Red Cave, which I know is not as pretty as upper. However, as it currently stands with terrible BLM "roads" and dangerous, territorial, gun toting land-owners guarding the entrance, I would say don't go. If you want to see a slot canyon in that area, maybe check out Diana's and Peek A Boo a bit south from the Sand Wash slots. These Red Cave canyons need some serious work to make them decently accessible.

Iceaxe, I would say I agree that a Sand Wash hike is probably the smartest route. It's not a long hike, just sandy. There does appear to be a track you could walk (maybe even drive) of questionable ownership (private) that keeps you at least 300 or so feet from the local property owners, and then drops into the water course. Here is an aerial image.

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Anyhow, the canyon is rather pretty, and being that it's on public land, it most certainly should be more open to the public.
Here are some images I shot:
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[2065toyota]

"Gun toting hicks"

Wow


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[darhawk]

Nice pics and thanks for the information. But I don't think the tone of this post generally will be helpful in any future effort to negotiate access. I might encourage you to re-think some of this language.

[darhawk]

It is reasonable to think that some folks headed for Red Caves caused some kind of problem for the landowners and that they are justifiably reluctant to facilitate headaches to their property.

[hank moon]

Nice pics and thanks for the information. But I don't think the tone of this post generally will be helpful in any future effort to negotiate access. I might encourage you to re-think some of this language.

X2, without "might"

[Sleipnir]

OK, I apologize. I will delete the offending words. However, I have to tell you that I didn't use them simply as a cheap shot. I really did have a hostile and very threatening encounter with a guy packing heat and talking in a southern accent. Why a Utah native would acquire that accent is beyond me. The combination of the hostility, accent, and sidearm made the description seem apt. Sorry if anyone was offended.

[darhawk]

Thank you. I wasn't personally offended, but could see how someone could take offense. It sounds like you had a nasty encounter and I would be miffed as well.

[Erik B]

I really did have a hostile and very threatening encounter with a guy packing heat and talking in a southern accent.

Yikes! You didn't specifically imply this, but I'm glad everyone is out alive. Yes?

It's unfortunate that people are hyper-territorial. I get it that this land-owner has a bad taste in their mouth from some distant experience but to threaten another person!!!?!?!?!!! (this is assuming you weren't asking for it...??)

I'm definitely going to disregard Red Caves as an option after hearing this. There's lots of other great places that don't have the same risks on the approach. :)

a shame...