U of U Study being done on Extreme sports participants. PLEASE TAKE THIS SURVEY

[Doomedty]

Hey guys Im doing research on extreme sports partisipants please take this quick survey. This is not an add scheme it is endorsed by the University of Utah. I am a student. Thank you :)

https://humutah.co1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_8uGDTaNNPnvtKJL

[Doomedty]

Especially those who have had accidents in canyons, while climbing or skying or during any extreme sport.

[Doomedty]

I'm a U of U student doing research on Extreme sports participants (like myself) and need you to take this survey please. https://humutah.co1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_8uGDTaNNPnvtKJL

Thats everyone who climbs, canyoneers, skydives or base jumps, extreme down hill snowboarding or skiing, ya know the stuff that can kill you. :) thank you.

[ratagonia]

what does this have to do with canyoneering?????

:moses:

[Scott Card]

Canyoneering is just hiking with ropes, isn't it? :cool2:

[rockgremlin]

Canyoneering isn't an extreme sport....just ask Iceaxe.

[Scott Card]

I'm with Tom. As I posted in the General section, isn't canyoneering just hiking with ropes? I've never had an accident nor would I consider canyoneering "extreme". Heck, I'm an old dude and I do it. Seems like we have way too many gray beards in this sport to be extreme. :haha:

[rockgremlin]

Canyoneering is just hiking with ropes, isn't it? :cool2:


LOL, or Scott Card apparently.

I think if you polled most of the folks on this board, MOST would consider canyoneering not extreme....

[Iceaxe]

Canyoneering isn't an extreme sport....just ask Iceaxe.

If you consider canyoneering an extreme sport you are doing it wrong.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Byron]

Sure it's extreme...extremely fun!

[Iceaxe]

I have had a lot of friends and acquaintances get killed racing cars and motorcycles, but none canyoneering, it's funny how some sports get tagged as extreme.

Compared to some of the sports I've been involved with canyoneering is nothing more then wading in the kiddie pool.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hank moon]

Extreme Sport?

Canyoneering is neither

Why take a survey with an "extremely" biased premise embedded in the title?

Commuting - now that's proper death sport!

[deagol]

Especially those who have had accidents in canyons, while climbing or skying or during any extreme sport.

you mean skiing ?

IMHO, extreme sports (just for example):
base jumping
wingsuiting
expedition kayaking
certain types of skiing/snowboarding
gator wrestling
etc...

Extreme sports focus on adrenaline, Canyoneering shouldn't have too much of that. unless something goes wrong.

[hank moon]

....

[hank moon]

Back in the days of Amundsen,
Scott and Shackleton,



scientific exploration of Antarctica began,



and this opening of the unknown continent
is their great achievement.



But one thing about the early explorers
does not feel right.



The obsession to be the first one
to set his foot on the South Pole.



It was for personal fame
and the glory of the British Empire.



This is Shackleton's original hut,
preserved unchanged for 100 years.



But, in a way, from the South Pole onwards



there was no further expansion possible,



and the Empire started to fade
into the abyss of history.



It all looks now like an extinct supermarket.



On a cultural level,
it meant the end of adventure.



Exposing the last unknown spots
of this Earth was irreversible,



but it feels sad
that the South Pole or Mount Everest



were not left in peace in their dignity.



It may be a futile wish
to keep a few white spots on our maps,



but human adventure, in its original sense,
lost its meaning,



became an issue for the
Guinness Book of World Records.



Scott and Amundsen
were clearly early protagonists,



and from there on
it degenerated into absurd quests.



A Frenchman crossed the Sahara Desert
in his car set in reverse gear,



and I am waiting for the first barefoot runner
on the summit of Everest



or the first one hopping into the South Pole
on a pogo stick.


- From Warner Herzog's film, "Encounters at the End of the World"

[Iceaxe]

This one freaked me out a little bit....


I spent part of the morning talking with Barry Bryant while he was getting ready to make a world land speed record attempt in 2009. Just before he climbed into his race car I snapped this picture of him.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30443&stc=1&d=1249937402


15 minutes later he was dead....

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30445&stc=1&d=1250004810

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30446&stc=1&d=1250004798

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30447&stc=1&d=1250004790

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30448&stc=1&d=1250004779

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30449&stc=1&d=1250005478

[deagol]

Anything can be made "extreme" - ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gds759lNSRY

[2065toyota]

Just because you / I / we don't find it extreme, to the general public it is considered extreme.

Tom, how many active canyoneers did you tell me you estimated there were, 3500?

Now that makes a pretty small percentage of the general population.

Take the survey or not I figure, but no need to criticize.

[hank moon]

Kody, my concern is that a survey of this type can serve to perpetuate the public perception of which you speak, which is not good for the health of the activity, IMO.

BTW canyoning, climbing, etc. are considered normal (i.e. non-extreme), family-oriented activities in many areas of the world, most notably Europe.

[Iceaxe]

FYI: I merged the two threads together so we can keep the discussion all in one place.

75348

[Iceaxe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njHE4S-HD3I

[Iceaxe]

BTW canyoning, climbing, etc. are considered normal (i.e. non-extreme), family-oriented activities in many areas of the world, most notably Europe.

I think you would also find the same holds true for the good ol' USA, or at least in Utah and similar outdoor recreational states.

But it is fun to show some crazy video or pictures to friends and family and watch their eyes pop, but if you really pay attention it's the landscape that is extreme and not so much the activity.

[deagol]

Just because you / I / we don't find it extreme, to the general public it is considered extreme.

....

Perhaps, but don't they also consider "Duck Dynasty" to be culture?

[mzamp]

Well there's skiing and then there's extreme skiing. However, the ones doing the extreme skiing probably just think it is extremely fun. Sandthrax would fall under the extreme category for me. Maybe Kolob running above 6 cf/s too.

[qedcook]

Tom, how many active canyoneers did you tell me you estimated there were, 3500?


That seems like quite the under-estimation. Is this in Utah only? Even then, it seems like a small number. Is Tom basing this on the sales of his products?!?! JK, Tom.

[2065toyota]

Perception will generally always trump reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flatiron]

Perception will generally always trump reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure if it trumps but do know that everyone's perception is different. I grew up in Illinois playing all the 'main ball sports'. When old friends see some of my pics or I tell them about canyoneering - they are amazed. And think I am crazy. My Uncle just told me he and my older sister think I need to quit my 'crazy' sports of climbing and canyoneering. Wayyyy too risky. And I am not pushing the envelope at age 60 and numerous back issues.
But that is their perception. They would all classify it as extreme. I would not. I love to free solo 4th - low 5th class rock. That is pretty easy. Alex Honnold free soloing Half Dome is extreme in my mind - but prob not his.
So who decides? Take the survey, or not.

[Iceaxe]

Tom, how many active canyoneers did you tell me you estimated there were, 3500?

I think you would first have to define what is a canyoneer. Is the guy that did Subway once with the boyscouts a canyoneer?

Personally I'd put the number of what I consider to be a canyoneer at under 5000 in the US.

[qedcook]

I think you would first have to define what is a canyoneer. Is the guy that did Subway once with the boyscouts a canyoneer?

Personally I'd put the number of what I consider to be a canyoneer at under 5000 in the US.

That's a surprisingly low number, especially since 4,999 of those canyoneers seem to be in Zion any time I decide to go! jk. I guess my estimations were wrong.

[Eric Holden]

That's a surprisingly low number, especially since 4,999 of those canyoneers seem to be in Zion any time I decide to go! jk. I guess my estimations were wrong.

Don't forget we have like 30 canyoneers out here in So Cal, so at least 5030. On and those 8 guys in Hawaii, so 5038.... at least.

[ratagonia]

Just because you / I / we don't find it extreme, to the general public it is considered extreme.

Tom, how many active canyoneers did you tell me you estimated there were, 3500?

Now that makes a pretty small percentage of the general population.

Take the survey or not I figure, but no need to criticize.

That is an unlikely number for me to come up with, no matter where the bar is set, except...

If you set the bar as someone who has made a direct purchase at any time (since transition to the current software) from the CanyoneeringUSA store, THEN 3500 is your number. But this is not a good way to estimate the total number of sport participants in the USA.

Tom

[2065toyota]

That number came from a casual conversation earlier this year I thought from you, maybe it was from Ram. Just an estimate of how small the canyoneering community really is

[Doomedty]

I very much so believe that canyoneering can be considered an extreme sport. Ive gotten hypodermic, Ive climbed shit with little to absolutely no protection, ive risked my life in many many many instances to complete some canyons. Shit Ive fallen 40 feet off a crack climb in a canyon. Like any extreme sport margin for error is slim, but when you do screw up, its bad. Some of the stories im getting from this survey are amazing. Id say if you don't think canyoneering is an extreme sport, especially compared to other sports like golf, football, TV marathons ( which now kill more than any due to the correlations with popcorn and heart disease) ,then your just spending way to much time in Zion or doing pine creek and spooky way to many times. Just saying. Go do sandthrax on a hot summer day and try and tell me you dont think this sport at times can make you shit yourself and believe in god. Thank you to all who have taken the survey so far. This is the last week I will be gathering responses on it so please if you know anyone who has had an accident in a canyon or while doing an extreme sport please tell them to take my survey. I will be posting my findings on a later blog.

[ratagonia]

I very much so believe that canyoneering can be considered an extreme sport. Ive gotten hypodermic, Ive climbed shit with little to absolutely no protection, ive risked my life in many many many instances to complete some canyons. Shit Ive fallen 40 feet off a crack climb in a canyon. Like any extreme sport margin for error is slim, but when you do screw up, its bad. Some of the stories im getting from this survey are amazing. Id say if you don't think canyoneering is an extreme sport, especially compared to other sports like golf, football, TV marathons ( which now kill more than any due to the correlations with popcorn and heart disease) ,then your just spending way to much time in Zion or doing pine creek and spooky way to many times. Just saying. Go do sandthrax on a hot summer day and try and tell me you dont think this sport at times can make you shit yourself and believe in god. Thank you to all who have taken the survey so far. This is the last week I will be gathering responses on it so please if you know anyone who has had an accident in a canyon or while doing an extreme sport please tell them to take my survey. I will be posting my findings on a later blog.

Sounds like you are doing it wrong. Please take up a different sport.

Tom

[hank moon]

Canyoneering is not an inherently extreme activity.

Cave diving (for example) is an inherently extreme activity in that there is no way to substantially reduce the danger other than abstinence. The margin for error is extremely slim as there are many pathways to death (light failure, air supply failure, dive line failure, loss of visibility, disorientation, uncontrolled breathing, etc. not to mention the intrinsic instability of the playground and the air supply time limit). Kind of like space walking.

The margin for error in canyoneering is variable, but in general the baseline margin is much greater than that of true extreme activities.

How you choose to play the game makes a huge difference. As you have chosen to risk your life many times to complete a canyon, I suggest that your way of playing might be more extreme than the more popular version of the game, in which the players enjoy living to play another day.

"Go do sandthrax on a hot summer day"

?

Sounds...really unenjoyable.

I would rather splash around in the cool narrows of Kolob creek on such a day.

Sandthrax is way more fun in the spring or fall, yo.

[Doomedty]

Tom, This is coming from the guy who has broke how many bones and had how many anchors fail on them in canyons lol? We all have our stories with this sport some bad and most of them good. Its just dancing with a margin of error. Its all statistics. Shit happens and the difference between idiots and non idiots is the ability to survive and come out just fine. Ive never called search and rescue and 98% of my ascents and descents have been beautiful and successful.

[Doomedty]

no sport is inherently extreme. its just all how you play the sport and if you follow the rules or not. think sport climbing vs trad climbing. think sky diving vs base jumping. think frisbee and fisbee golf.

[deagol]

...... this sport at times can make you shit yourself and believe in god. .....

That sounds like a nice combination

[ratagonia]

Tom, This is coming from the guy who has broke how many bones and had how many anchors fail on them in canyons lol? We all have our stories with this sport some bad and most of them good. Its just dancing with a margin of error. Its all statistics. Shit happens and the difference between idiots and non idiots is the ability to survive and come out just fine. Ive never called search and rescue and 98% of my ascents and descents have been beautiful and successful.

one, and one.

I am not glad that you find my near-death experience funny. wtf?

But it only takes one.

Once in a while, poo just happens. But most of the time, poo happens for a clearly discernible reason. Which is why canyoneering is not an extreme sport. For instance, doing Sandthrax in the middle of summer is a bad choice, and a clearly discernible reason for something to go wrong. In another instance, doing Sandthrax with no experience in difficult stemming canyons is another bad choice, and a clearly discernible reason for something to go wrong.

Base Jumping, on the other hand, IS an extreme sport. It is said, by Base Jumpers, that very few Base for more than 5 years. Why? Because either they are dead, or all their Base friends are dead.

Canyoneering is not like that.

:moses:

[Doomedty]

Tom,
sorry if that came across like i was making fun of your near-death experiences you should just read your own messages. no matter the amount of experience you have in a sport you more than others should know that it happens no matter how much experaince. yep it only takes one tiny mistake and boom your gone. That is what determines an extreme sport. That margin of error. Smaller the margin, the more extreme the sport.

Like I said before sport climbing is considered extreme but less deaths and accidents happen sport climbing than most sports. More kids get concussions and brain damage because of (American) football (we all know soccer players are like the new WWE) but millions of people play football. stats show that its not that extreme due to the injury level or threat of injury. Id consider sleeping on a chock stone in a freezing canyon pretty extreme. But surviving it is what sepperates the ones that can do the sport and accept the risks from those who die or quit because they were not experienced enough (or didn't take their meds in my case). Some canyons definitely not extreme but some id say so. just depends on if your the type of canyoneer that is willing to train and challenge your abilities, or the type that is just looking for a chill pretty weekend.

I love sport climbing its good safe fun but i sport climb to get more confident to trad climb. Easy climbs/canyons are a means to greater end of self advancement and exploration.

[ratagonia]

Tom,
sorry if that came across like i was making fun of your near-death experiences you should just read your own messages. no matter the amount of experience you have in a sport you more than others should know that it happens no matter how much experaince. yep it only takes one tiny mistake and boom your gone. That is what determines an extreme sport. That margin of error. Smaller the margin, the more extreme the sport.

Like I said before sport climbing is considered extreme but less deaths and accidents happen sport climbing than most sports. More kids get concussions and brain damage because of (American) football (we all know soccer players are like the new WWE) but millions of people play football. stats show that its not that extreme due to the injury level or threat of injury. Id consider sleeping on a chock stone in a freezing canyon pretty extreme. But surviving it is what sepperates the ones that can do the sport and accept the risks from those who die or quit because they were not experienced enough (or didn't take their meds in my case). Some canyons definitely not extreme but some id say so. just depends on if your the type of canyoneer that is willing to train and challenge your abilities, or the type that is just looking for a chill pretty weekend.

I love sport climbing its good safe fun but i sport climb to get more confident to trad climb. Easy climbs/canyons are a means to greater end of self advancement and exploration.

We have very different understandings of how the world works.

:moses:

[harness man]

Hi Doomedty
This is a GREAT thread, thanks for starting it!
I am an older canyoneer and DO find the sport to be extreme- extremely TIRING!
BIG packs, long days, brutal approaches, etc. that do not favor my flabby physique.
I am curious about your view of risk (and how that may have shaped the structure of your survey).
Your 'handle' on Bogley is "Doomedty": do you think you are "doomed" and why?
Also with your name the quote: "Be a Man". Do you think that taking risks are an important part of manhood?
Then there is the 'byline' on your posts: "I could fall off that and live."
Is this referencing "high ball" boulder problems, and if so do you use a crash pad? A big CUSHY one or a little dinky one (smaller target)?
:popcorn:
Best, Todd

[flatiron]

Hi Doomedty
I am curious about your view of risk (and how that may have shaped the structure of your survey).
Your 'handle' on Bogley is "Doomedty": do you think you are "doomed" and why?
Also with your name the quote: "Be a Man". Do you think that taking risks are an important part of manhood?
Then there is the 'byline' on your posts: "I could fall off that and live."
Is this referencing "high ball" boulder problems, and if so do you use a crash pad? A big CUSHY one or a little dinky one (smaller target)?
:popcorn:
Best, Todd

I saw that also and wondered same. Doomedty obviously thinks of, and practices canyoneering as an extreme sport. As a means to take highly risky chances. That is fine - it's his choice. But of course that does not mean the sport itself is inherently extreme.

And it would seem from just the replies on this thread most others do not see or practice it extremely. There is a difference.

"I love sport climbing its good safe fun but i sport climb to get more confident to trad climb. Easy climbs/canyons are a means to greater end of self advancement and exploration."
This pretty much explains his view - a means to a greater end. The greater end being extreme risk??

I

[deagol]

I blame Mountain Dew adds.. :facepalm:

[Iceaxe]

Using Doomedty's logic I practice extreme driving because I only do it at night, while drunk, in a snowstorm, without a seat beat.....

[hank moon]

1:20 - yow


http://vimeo.com/101732293

[deagol]

That's exactly what I meant about certain types of kayaking being truely extreame. If you canyoneering is anything like that, you have a good chance of ending up dead, IMO.

[hank moon]

That's exactly what I meant about certain types of kayaking being truely extreame. If you canyoneering is anything like that, you have a good chance of ending up dead, IMO.

What we're talking about here is culture. Many activities (or sports), once become sufficiently large, develop communities, cultures, and eventually, sub-cultures. Most so-called "extreme sports" (e.g. BASE jumping, Cave diving, Cliff diving, etc.) developed from less-extreme versions of the basic activity. First a few lone practitioners, then enough for community/competition to develop, numbers to enter the game, finally enough devotees to have a culture and be recognized as a "separate" activity. The extreme sub-cultures tend to be highly competitive (i.e. envelope-pushing). As Tom said, Canyoneering isn't like that. Perhaps one day Canyoneering will become big enough to have one or more "extreme" sects. From the no-rope, Parcours-style action seen on YouTube recently, the process is well underway.

[ratagonia]

on this same topic - an example to Type 2 Stupidity:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/us-mountaineer-condemned-filming-children-mont-blanc-avalanche

US climber condemned for filming his children in Mont Blanc avalanche[FONT=arial]Local mayor and climbing associations accuse Patrick Sweeney of recklessness and stupidity on mountain's 'corridor of death'


[COLOR=#333333]A US climber who filmed his children, aged nine and 11, being knocked off their feet in a mini-avalanche as they tried to set a newmountaineering (http://www.theguardian.com/world/mountaineering) record on Mont Blanc has been condemned by the local mayor and climbers' associations.
Patrick Sweeney, who caught the incident on camera and posted on YouTube, was interviewed with his children on US breakfast television (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/family-rescued-hike-corridor-death-24541293)about how they survived the mountain's notorious "corridor of death".
On seeing the footage, however, Jean-Marc Peillex, mayor of St-Gervais-les-Bains – the town where mountaineers begin their ascent of Mont Blanc – went on the attack on Monday.
He denounced Sweeney's "recklessness" and the promotion of the incident in the media, and told FranceInfo radio that Europe (http://www.theguardian.com/world/europe-news)'s highest peak was "becoming an amusement park where we're going to have gendarmes, rescuers and Pamela Anderson to save us".
Sweeney, a self-described "adrenaline junkie", was trying to beat the record set by a 10-year-old boy from London (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8171480.stm) in reaching the summit with his younger son, PJ, and daughter Shannon.
[COLOR=#333333]"He was trying to break the record for stupidity," said the president of the national mountain guides' union, Denis Crabi